Lostconfused
Member
Yes it is.
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Brandish: The Dark Revenant |OT| - Pit Shenanigans
- Thread starter jdkluv
- Start date
Who plays La-Mulana with a mouse, or does any point-and-clicking? La-Mulana is basically a dungeon-crawler, more or less the same as Brandish (though side-scrolling, as opposed to overhead). It prioritizes puzzles more than Brandish does, but otherwise should appeal very much to a similar audience, I'd think.
Either way, I do think you're overstating things a bit. The puzzle slipped you up, and slipped up a few other people, but those people it DIDN'T slip up seemed to really appreciate it for switching things up a bit (no pun intended). I know for me, personally, it made 9F probably my second-favorite favorite floor in the Tower next to 5F
thanks to the Headless fight, which was itself something of a puzzle
For me, not only was it *not* an objectively bad puzzle, it was a subjectively excellent one. I quite enjoyed it, and felt really clever when I figured it out.
Again, I am sorry it hurt your enjoyment of the game, but as the old saying goes: you can please some people all of the time, and all people some of the time, but you can't please all people all of the time.
-Tom
YianGaruga
Banned
I see you're not interested in an actual discussion.
And that's exactly the reason why I liked it. Brandish uses new gameplay elements all the time and uses them once. It keeps the game fresh and interesting.
Lostconfused
Member
Neither are you apparently since you are making absolute statements without actually discussing anything. I can't engage with you if you don't want to.
If you want to retreat from this conversation then stop posting.
People will always get stuck on something, though, and there will always be a handful of people who "behave outside of the intended or expected manner." That's the nature of any puzzle in any game. If you design a puzzle that's so easy it can be solved by absolutely everyone, you've basically watered down the experience for those who enjoy a really good brain-teaser -- it's a situation where there will always be someone winding up disappointed, unfortunately.
Hell, whole games were built on the concept of puzzles that are extremely difficult and time-consuming to solve -- La-Mulana being the most recent I can think of, and Myst being the most popular.
Speak of the devil!I guess different perspectives, and all that, as I presently rank La-Mulana as my #1 favorite game of all time. I *loved* the cryptic obtuseness of it, and felt beyond satisfied every time I solved one of its crazy-hard puzzles. I'd love to see more games like it.
(Incidentally, the "southeast" solution from the SNES version was actually pretty clever on Koei's part. Even more cryptic than the one I went with, but really interesting! Props to them for a well-considered puzzle localization.)
Another 10.
-Tom
I want to get back into La-Mulana so badly, but it's the cryptic-like nature of the game that's keeping me from investing more of time into it. Did you figure out that game without a guide? I can' imagine ANYONE getting through that game without looking up shit and having to resort to a guide just to proceed is a gigantic fucking turn off for me these days. I love puzzles/riddles, but sometimes games can go too far with them. Wild ARMs, I feel, is a good series (the older games) that strike a fine balance between decent riddles and environmental "puzzles" or obstacles (which I prefer). Zelda, obviously, has always done that area well and there are a ton of other great games with good puzzles (like the older Resident Evil/Silent Hill titles). I love "aha" moments, but if I'm sitting at a puzzle for a prolonged period of time, coming up with potential solutions that are, in my opinion, more interesting/cooler than the intended design/solution, then there's something wrong, in my opinion. Doesn't help the fact that there was like NO puzzles up until that floor, so to throw a somewhat misleading one randomly in there just totally rubs me the wrong way.
Lostconfused
Member
It's fine, I am past it and still playing the game so that's not an issue. Now I just have to ask if that red herring in the first line was intentional or not.
I don't think it's a bad puzzle. The clue tells you exactly what you need to know, you just have to see it.
My general thought process was basically this: 3 on the left, 5 on the right? Well, if that's the number of buttons I have to press then that doesn't give me any indication which buttons to press. If there's no indication which buttons they are, I'm not going to randomly press buttons.
I thought the button layout itself was a dead giveaway. You can make a '3' and '5' shape easily, which immediately solves the issue of any indicating of which buttons to press. I mean, it still took me a a pair of tries because I attempted the inverse solution first, but I guess I'm failing to see what's wrong with this puzzle. I guess I don't remember what the first line was at this point, which seems to be problematic?
I thought the button layout itself was a dead giveaway. You can make a '3' and '5' shape easily, which immediately solves the issue of any indicating of which buttons to press. I mean, it still took me a a pair of tries because I attempted the inverse solution first, but I guess I'm failing to see what's wrong with this puzzle. I guess I don't remember what the first line was at this point, which seems to be problematic?
Heh. Whereas for me, it was kind of a "FINALLY!" moment. I'd been waiting that whole time for the game to give me a really good brain-teaser.
To answer your question, no, I didn't complete La-Mulana without a guide. What I did was play the game as far as I could without one... then when I got what I'd classify as "hopelessly stuck," I'd look up the solution. Rinse and repeat. And I was OK with this, because the puzzles I DID solve just made me feel SO GOOD about myself, and the game itself was just SO FUN that I didn't mind all the trial and error.
I'm confident that it IS possible to play through La-Mulana without using a guide at all, but it would require a level of dedication you don't find very often in the modern era of gaming -- the sort of dedication you'd get in the early days of PC gaming, where people would draw maps, write down clues and spend hours piecing everything together, painstakingly trying every possibility until something worked.
...It would also take a very, very high level of intelligence, admittedly. Beating La-Mulana without a guide should like, be enough to qualify a person for MENSA.
No, the first line was actually part of the clue. "Press not every switch" means exactly that: you don't have to press all of the switches, just certain ones.
In this case, the ones that form the shapes of the numbers 3 and 5.
-Tom
Lostconfused
Member
The first line is "press not every switch" or something similar. The intention might have been to suggest that you don't have to literally just hit every switch but go for a specific pattern but it also suggests that there might be a specific limit at to how many switches need to be pressed.
This leads to some people forming shapes with limited number of switches or other things, because you can easily draw a 3 with just three switches being pressed on the left side. That line is effectively a red herring that can potentially make things more complicated and set the player looking for a solution in the entirely wrong direction.
I think there is quiet a bit of human psychology involved in this case that is being ignored when people says "oh I've solved it rather easily".
This leads to some people forming shapes with limited number of switches or other things, because you can easily draw a 3 with just three switches being pressed on the left side. That line is effectively a red herring that can potentially make things more complicated and set the player looking for a solution in the entirely wrong direction.
I think there is quiet a bit of human psychology involved in this case that is being ignored when people says "oh I've solved it rather easily".
Guess I'll take this as my answer. The intention to help some people made it more difficult for others.
Yeah, that first line is what sent my head into overdrive. Like I said, for a game that's tile-by-tile, I took the two different floor tile graphics into consideration. especially considering the fact that the darker floor tile conveniently paths itself around the outside of the switches (there's even a block of 4 dead center surrounded by switches on the right side). But whatever, no need to continue discussing this, ha! I still think the puzzle was needlessly complicated and for a dungeon crawler that barely had anything like this prior to that floor, it's sort of a stupid design decision.
Tizoc
Member
I must've died maybe a little over10 times so far, I expect the later floors to be where I die the most XD.
Augemitbutter
Member
i was a wealthy savant. 23-26 hours. 98%something completion rate. i think i didn't fully map the last boss room. thought they gave me a chance afterwards. also B2 at the very beginning. looked like i wasn't supposed to yet. everything else was at 100%
YianGaruga
Banned
B2 is bullshit and
requires a trick that is kind of hinted at very late in the game but really obscure
Hold Triangle while falling into the lower right hole that leads into B2 and you can reach the other parts of B2, including a second casino
Hold Triangle while falling into the lower right hole that leads into B2 and you can reach the other parts of B2, including a second casino
Everyone who finished the game should really at least try Dela Mode. I would say I liked it even more than the main game.
B2 is bullshit andNow THAT is bad puzzle design.requires a trick that is kind of hinted at very late in the game but really obsucre
Hold Triangle while falling into the lower right hole that leads into B2 and you can reach the other parts of B2, including a second casino
I wholeheartedly agree there! That is one of the more questionable design decisions in the game, to be sure.
I also agree here. Dela Mode pushes the game engine to the absolute limits of what it's capable of, throwing in all kinds of really unique new puzzles and traps that go well beyond what the main game featured. Really, really good stuff!
-Tom
Augemitbutter
Member
awww, that's bad. so tower F9 and B2 for worst floors?
will try for dela mode later. maybe when euro version comes out.
will try for dela mode later. maybe when euro version comes out.
YianGaruga
Banned
The puzzle itself could have been acceptable, but
that you get the hint some 30 floors later, and backtracking (thank god for warp) doesn't even give you anything useful is just very disappointing.
Augemitbutter
Member
i didn't even notice there was a hint. probably because i forgot about that floor.
Lostconfused
Member
Sounds more like your OCD is bad puzzle design.Now THAT is bad puzzle design.
YianGaruga
Banned
Very clever, didn't expect that from someone that wasn't able to solve the tower puzzle.
I decided to leave you alone so I'd prefer if you did the same.
Lostconfused
Member
Really then why did you decide to post what you posted? Or even make this post if you wanted to be left alone? I told you about the posting man, I told you.
On the subject: I guess this version of Headless isn't in the game?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3vlHMGps8E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3vlHMGps8E
There are two main ways to beat them: the fun way, and the cheaterhead way.
The fun way is
to jump at the exact right moment to avoid their hits, then take one swing with your sword, then jump again, then swing again, etc., until one of them is dead. Once that happens, you can escape and take out the other three normally. Getting the timing right for this is tricky, but it's really satisfying!
And the cheaterhead way is
to come back after you have Warp magic.
No, that's the soundtrack exclusive version. There's also a soundtrack exclusive version of the opening theme -- basically, Falcom JDK Band recorded the songs, then cut them down to in-game versions that loop or fit in the space provided... but still included the full versions on the OST.
-Tom
I don't think so. Still waiting for it here.
Augemitbutter
Member
Not yet, but we should have info soon. Sorry for the radio silence!
Not that I'm aware of -- I've heard this technique recommended multiple times, and I may have even seen a video of it being done -- but I wouldn't know personally, since I much prefer the "fun" solution anyway.
-Tom
Augemitbutter
Member
Not that I'm aware of -- I've heard this technique recommended multiple times, and I may have even seen a video of it being done -- but I wouldn't know personally, since I much prefer the "fun" solution anyway.
-Tom
i see. guess i remembered wrong then.
Sadly, the wait is over for me, Brandish would have fit nicely into my january schedule, but with the delay for Europe it went from a definite Day-1 to a place on my buy-when-on-sale-list, because MH4U starts a wave of time-consuming, high quality titles that leave little to no room for the smaller, more niche pleasures like Brandish.
We already had a small discussion in the PSN-thread about it a few weeks ago, but no simultaneous (or at least really close) release for titles like this just kills all the little potential they would have had for sales in the EU. The hype, however small it may have been, is gone, which is easily seen by the low amounts of new posts in the OT and the scarcer mentions of Brandish in other threads (and neogaf as an indicator is probably painting a too positive picture of this). And community is probably a pretty big sales driver for relative niche new PSP releases priced at 20$/probably20€.
I know this is pretty armchair, and that publishing in the EU is an unnecessary hell of an ordeal, but I'd really like for titles like Brandish to do well and I believe decreasing release asymmetries and more sensible release dates would go a long way to help.
Easy to say, but harder to pull off. Believe me, we've been doing our best! Red tape just ruins everything.
-Tom
Orniletter
Banned
I'm just thankful it' will be published by XSEED at all here.
I shudder to think what Ghostlight would have done with Brandish's EU release.
(1+ year delay, gamebreaking bugs, never putting the game on sale )
I shudder to think what Ghostlight would have done with Brandish's EU release.
(1+ year delay, gamebreaking bugs, never putting the game on sale )
That's the correct solution, but it's the puzzle people keep getting confused by.
Try reversing which ones you're hitting. It seems people keep thinking they need to push every switch BUT the ones that form a 3 and a 5, when actually, you're supposed to push ONLY the switches that form a 3 and a 5.
-Tom
Tizoc
Member
D'oh didn't think of that but really I was a bit sleepy by the time I reached that puzzle so that might've contributed to it XD.
The hint is rather sensible in this case.
Augemitbutter
Member
there is probably some cheap trick, but i ignored the dropped weapons and just danced around them. jumping can also help. just take care not trap yourself
YianGaruga
Banned
Lumpy Onion
Member
Kinda blurry on my 50" plasma. But it does make the characters and monsters feel bigger and bolder. Dualshock 4 controls are super tho.
Lostconfused
Member
Honestly the vita controls are fine. I just remmaped strafe to shoulder buttons and never looked back.
As GrumpyAlien stated, it looks kind of blurry. I like the look of it better when playing on a PSP via TV-out, but YMMV.
Doesn't look bad, either way.
-Tom
Brandish is pretty unique, honestly. It seems simple, like the sort of experience you can find anywhere, but nothing else quiiiiite has the same feel.
The closest retail games would probably be the Etrian Odyssey titles -- and maybe (to a lesser extent) the Wizardry titles?
I'm also playing an indie game right now called UnEpic that I'm enjoying on much the same level as Brandish, though it's by no means a similar game. It is, however, based around dungeon exploration and puzzles just as Brandish is, and there's a free demo you can download of it (a pretty darn lengthy one, too!), so it might be worth looking into.
Beware, though, as UnEpic has much more adult content and a much less likable protagonist.
-Tom
I don't think there are any special legal issues or anything -- you just have to license the game from the rights-holder, and that's it. The problem is finding people capable of porting those games! Though Project EGG seems to have that covered pretty nicely in Japan -- that's a pay service that lets you download and play old PC-XX, MSX, MSX2, etc. games on Windows. Most of Falcom's back catalog can be found on Project EGG, in fact, and I've suggested previously that we look into bringing a few of them to the west if we can. So far, I've had no luck -- but I'm a very persistent person, so who knows? Maybe in the future, you guys will get to play some OLD old stuff through us.
-Tom
Tizoc
Member
I don't think there are any special legal issues or anything -- you just have to license the game from the rights-holder, and that's it. The problem is finding people capable of porting those games! Though Project EGG seems to have that covered pretty nicely in Japan -- that's a pay service that lets you download and play old PC-XX, MSX, MSX2, etc. games on Windows. Most of Falcom's back catalog can be found on Project EGG, in fact, and I've suggested previously that we look into bringing a few of them to the west if we can. So far, I've had no luck -- but I'm a very persistent person, so who knows? Maybe in the future, you guys will get to play some OLD old stuff through us.
-Tom
Do a Kickstarter, and I shall be there with my wallet at the ready.
I need Brandish 2 in my life only because its subtitle is The Planet Buster, and you should port it to PS4 as well just so that these scrubby ass baby hand held PS4 owners know what a real video game is like.
Also because its subtitle is The Planet Buster.
Dragoon En Regalia
Member
Licensing emulators and the copyrighted parts of these computers needed for playing games (things like kanji ROM, MSX BIOSes, versions of Basic for loading, &c.) will be a tough part. But I think selling emulated Falcom games from their past would be more economic than porting natively, assuming the games are in demand to begin with. Cooperating with D4 on this could form a beautiful relationship!