-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Brazil's Senate ousts Rousseff in impeachment vote
- Thread starter nortonff
- Start date
- Status
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
How much corrupted was Dilma don't justify putting out an elected government in favor of a non-elected one, especially when the ones taking over are far more corrupted.
It's not an institutional coup against corruption, it's just an institutional coup against the left like the right did in Paraguay and Honduras. Due to history of the region, it's way better to always go in favor of waiting the next elections.
But i guess people have no memory.
It's not an institutional coup against corruption, it's just an institutional coup against the left like the right did in Paraguay and Honduras. Due to history of the region, it's way better to always go in favor of waiting the next elections.
But i guess people have no memory.
MrChocolate
Member
People are just a bunch of ignorants.
Some celebrate a shitshow like this, and they can't even realize the damage that such decision inflicted on the democracy of a country.
BrianRoyale
Member
This seems like my wife's family's sentiment about the whole thing.
Are they just trying to make Dilma the "fall guy" for everything?
It still seems like a win, but what follows this is the really important question.
My thoughts and prayers are with you Brazil (and by that I mean everyone in the country of Brazil, not just you Brazil on Neogaf, though you too), I hope a lot of good things can stem from this.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
I remember when "anti-corruption" Sisi's coup in Egypt against MB was applauded by some militants in Egypt, now they rot in jail with 70.000 political prisoners.
I really don't think it will turn out like that though, but the way it can happen so easily only because it's "legal" (many dictatorship were instaured "legally" in the region), it's actually frightening. Not liking a government is one thing, but removing an elected government is always very very risky. The transition team tend to "forget" to give the keys back.
I really don't think it will turn out like that though, but the way it can happen so easily only because it's "legal" (many dictatorship were instaured "legally" in the region), it's actually frightening. Not liking a government is one thing, but removing an elected government is always very very risky. The transition team tend to "forget" to give the keys back.
She had an awful government and developed the biggest economic crisis in Brazil that will be repeated by many other countries in the region in the coming years. She was involved in the usual political backscratching, in which no institutional accountability allows for shady dealing among the economic and political elite.
Despite all of this, she was impeached under unconstitutional process, which the opposition used under false pretense for political advantages. This is terrible.
Despite all of this, she was impeached under unconstitutional process, which the opposition used under false pretense for political advantages. This is terrible.
LukasTaves
Member
I'm glad because PT wasn't just corrupt for themselves, they made it so from top to bottom everyone was involved in their scheme from ask the Federal powers. How many times in history did an ex president claim that bout even the supreme Federal court wouldn't dare to touch him?
It's also good because temer has 0 chance of winning a election and he knows it, so his government will for sure be a transitionary government, which is exactly what brazil needs right now, a government that isn't afraid of doing the unpopularly but needed measures to get this wreck back on track.
LukasTaves
Member
The current government was elected too. When you vote for a candidate you also vote for its vice, and for whatever reason the elected president is incapable of governing the vice must step in.
This is what our constitution mandates and was followed by the book (except for Dilma who once again went against the law with that filthy agreement so she wouldn't lose her political rights)
Yeaaaah, you are stretching a tad far here buddy.
The Hermit
Member
The real net positive is the change of the economic modus operandi.
While the huge White elephant is still untouched ( a tributary and political reform), the decrease of the size of the State will increase production and investment.
It`s really sickening to see so many people siding with this corrupt government, to anyone that has any doubt if you should be happy or angry at this news just take a look at this:
"Ecuador, Bolivia and Venezuela announced measure after the Senate vote.
Venezuela freezes diplomatic and political relations with Brazil."
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fg1.globo.com%2Fmundo%2Fnoticia%2F2016%2F08%2Fpaises-convocam-embaixadores-apos-impeachment-de-dilma.html&edit-text=&act=url
Fucking Venezuela and Bolivia which are in a dictatorship for years and years and with the help and support of Lula and Dilma.
TAke a look at how great a life of a venezuelan is:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1113196
A bunch of people seems to have wished this for brazil too, thanks GOD today we made an huge step away from this path.
"Ecuador, Bolivia and Venezuela announced measure after the Senate vote.
Venezuela freezes diplomatic and political relations with Brazil."
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fg1.globo.com%2Fmundo%2Fnoticia%2F2016%2F08%2Fpaises-convocam-embaixadores-apos-impeachment-de-dilma.html&edit-text=&act=url
Fucking Venezuela and Bolivia which are in a dictatorship for years and years and with the help and support of Lula and Dilma.
TAke a look at how great a life of a venezuelan is:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1113196
A bunch of people seems to have wished this for brazil too, thanks GOD today we made an huge step away from this path.
"Far more corrupted"? I'd say they're at least equally corrupt. They've been partnered in corruption for years now, with PT at the top of the ticket. Dilma and Temer were both elected, he was picked by Dilma and voted in by all her voters. It's true that they were elected under a false platform, with lies, illegal funding and public government data manipulation running rampant, but that goes for both Dilma and Temer.
Hell, even today PT and PMDB partnered up to try to save themselves from ineligibility. How some people see PMDB as the devil but not PT is an amazing phenomenon to me.
It`s really sickening to see so many people siding with this corrupt government, to anyone that has any doubt if you should be happy or angry at this news just take a look at this:
"Ecuador, Bolivia and Venezuela announced measure after the Senate vote.
Venezuela freezes diplomatic and political relations with Brazil."
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fg1.globo.com%2Fmundo%2Fnoticia%2F2016%2F08%2Fpaises-convocam-embaixadores-apos-impeachment-de-dilma.html&edit-text=&act=url
Fucking Venezuela and Bolivia which are in a dictatorship for years and years and with the help and support of Lula and Dilma.
TAke a look at how great a life of a venezuelan is:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1113196
A bunch of people seems to have wished this for brazil too, thanks GOD today we made an huge step away from this path.
lol those sure are some democratic dictatorships then
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Gaming community with english proficiency, more likely to be pro-coup because of the social gap.
Coriolanus
Banned
How is bolivia a dictatorship?
It was to be expected, but given the forum as a whole is more leaned to the left, I expected the same to apply to the communities that reside here as well.
Definitely. I'm not really surprised, some past threads on the subject had a Red Scare atmosphere going on
Road of Ease
Member
At least they're more civilized than the Bolsominions (to non-brazilians: supporters of Jair Bolsonaro, a far-right militarist, popular with our version of the "alt-right" and serious candidate to be our Donald Trump) you'd find at UOL Jogos... I take that as an improvement
Except anyone that "leans left" should be strongly against Dilma's government, which for example tried to nominate a justice specifically to free a billionaire from jail.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Brazil don't have a large enough middle class that can identify with the national community as a whole as in the West or even some other latin american country like Argentina or Uruguay. It's way too socially stratified.
I will not bet on this, but i am pretty sure that ArgentinaGAF would be more divided between pro-K and anti-K.
Road of Ease
Member
Red Scare is such a perfect term to describe this kind of discourse... is there a portuguese equivalent to this?
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
So why most of latin-american and brazilian left is against the destitution of Dilma while being able to criticize the PT ?
It's crazy to think that one government will end corruption in a kleptocracy like Brazil.
I am not fan of the PT, nor the latin american left (i prefer them from the right, though, but it's not very hard) in general but i would never accept them to be removed by force. Just wait the elections and let the people decide.
Abilidebob
Member
When someone voted for Dilma they also voted for Temer.
PMDB and PT have been close allies for a long, long time. I honestly want Temer to fall and rot in jail with his "ex-friends" from PT, but the people that elected Dilma also elected Temer and his allies.
Can't really celebrate this, but it's a at least a step in the right direction. Though I doubt PMDB or other parties will effected to this extent in the near future, this shows that some good change can happen.
Though I would love to hear some actual arguments from the "anti-coup" crowd here, instead of just ad hominem's covering the entire forum.
Though I would love to hear some actual arguments from the "anti-coup" crowd here, instead of just ad hominem's covering the entire forum.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Except that they didn't vote for him as a traitor. They voted for him as a supporter of the PT government.
Abilidebob
Member
Are you really serious with me right now?
Like, seriously seriously? Did you read your own post?
sorry to break the news but they are:
http://noticias.uol.com.br/ultimas-noticias/afp/2016/08/31/oea-qualifica-venezuela-de-ditadura-e-denuncia-repressao.htm
Evo Morales stole petrobras with at least the connivance of Lula.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4964300.stm
And through a populist gov and a successful referendum was trying to keep himself perpetually as a president
http://blog.independent.org/2016/03/01/evo-morales-and-the-populist-domino/
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Dilma was elected in 2014 and in 2015 he was already plotting for her destitution.
It's not exactly what you expect from a vice-president.
This is the worst argument ever.
The people that voted for Dilma, voted for a leftist project. Temer straight up destroyed this project with PMDB's rupture with the governament.
Do you really think the people that voted for Dilma wanted a reduction of investiments in social projects and the blowout of insane privatizations (which are already happening)?
NO.
So, please, stahp.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Bolivia is not classed as a dictatorship by democracy index, nor is Venezuela by the way. Political repression, corruption and longing for personal power are not the characteristics of a dictatorship, just democracy passing by a rough phase. You have a lot of different nuances between perfect democracy and dictatorship.
Anyway supporting a coup against a democratically elected government don't qualify you as a democrat.
ninjaurbano
Member
Violating the budget law was not the only reason for impeachment. The main reason was the huge economy crisis and the biggest corruption scandal in the history of the world (and not only the country).
Dilma's political party (PT) was the most corrupted and incompetent of all. Nothing comes close. Sure, corruption scandals are not new in Brazil, but what PT did is beyond the imagination.
Millions of people went to the street several times calling for the impeachment - the largest protests in Brazil history. That's the reason we are now cheering the impeachment. Without public support, it would be impossible.
Removing Dilma and PT from the presidency (legally) is like removing Nicolás Maduro from Venezuela. It's like curing a cancer.
No matter what some people may say, EVERYTHING is better than Dilma or PT. Everything (with the exception of Nicolás Maduro, maybe).
Dilma's political party (PT) was the most corrupted and incompetent of all. Nothing comes close. Sure, corruption scandals are not new in Brazil, but what PT did is beyond the imagination.
Millions of people went to the street several times calling for the impeachment - the largest protests in Brazil history. That's the reason we are now cheering the impeachment. Without public support, it would be impossible.
Removing Dilma and PT from the presidency (legally) is like removing Nicolás Maduro from Venezuela. It's like curing a cancer.
No matter what some people may say, EVERYTHING is better than Dilma or PT. Everything (with the exception of Nicolás Maduro, maybe).
Abilidebob
Member
I also don't expect a President to almost completely destroy our own economy and try to hide the shit she did.
And even then, they still voted for him. What he thought of doing or did afterwards doesn't mean he wasn't elected by the same people that elected Dilma. Saying that he wasn't democratically elected is just complete bogus.
Is he a complete piece of crap of a vampire? Absolutely.
Do I want to see him fall down with his friend Eduardo Cunha and Renan Calheiros? Holy shit yes I do.
Was he democratically elected alongside Dilma? No doubt about it.
The fact he "betrayed" his President's party doesn't change the millions of votes he got.
He didn't follow what voters expected him to do? Yes. Just like every single other politician elected in this country. I still remember how Lula completely screwed over retirees and public teachers, completely breaking his promises in that and dozens of other situations. Does that mean Lula didn't get my vote back in 2006? No, it just means I regretted immensely my choices back then.
Also,
Are you really implying that Dilma(and Lula for that matter) only followed "leftist projects"? Like there was no privatization in their governments. Like they didn't cut funds to Education and Health. Come on.
Coriolanus
Banned
The first link has fuckall to do with claims of being a dictatorship, and more to do with claims of nationalism.
The second link shows that he lost the referendum and...erm.. accepted the result. Not exactly something that a dictator would do.
Again, how is he a dictator?
Dictators take power. They do not ask the people for it. What he did by trying to get laws changed to get another term was no different than what FHC did in the 90's. Heck, it was actually more democratic, since FHC didn't put the matter up to the public. And FHC sure af was no dictator.
ninjaurbano
Member
Do you really think that most of Dilma's voters had a "leftist project" in mind? A huge majority of the population is not even leftist.
Now, tell me what was more important for her election: her "leftist project" or 20 fucking more minutes everyday on TV, in campaign advertising, broadcasting over ALL channels (and also radio), just because of the union with Temer and his political party (PMDB).
And Dilma won by a very small margin. You can bet PMDB support was decisive for her election.
How is this a bad argument? PT sided with PMDB since the beginning to keep a coalition and reach the power (we're talking about decades here), and everything's great till they effectively assume through a legitimate position that was legitimized by vote.
Yeah I bet the vast majority of voters don't even blink at the vice nomination at the ticket, but that only aggravates it all. At the end, what matters is the fact that who voted for Dilma also voted for Temer whether you like it or not. A lot could have been done years or months BEFORE the elections, like actively manifesting your disatisfaction with the coaliton and ballot or even broader aspects like the direction PT was going. It's absurd to deny that fact.
So after the military dictatorship, 2 out of 4 of our democratically elected presidents got impeached.
I guess it says a lot about how fucking awful our democracy and political institutions are.
Temer is already openly talking about axing universal health care benefits and workers rights. Just had to look at UOL and Folha first page to get the latest details.
There are no innocents in this story. Not Dilma, Lula, PT, Temer, PMDB, Aécio and PSDB. They are all guilty.
What a fucking clusterfuck.
I guess it says a lot about how fucking awful our democracy and political institutions are.
Temer is already openly talking about axing universal health care benefits and workers rights. Just had to look at UOL and Folha first page to get the latest details.
There are no innocents in this story. Not Dilma, Lula, PT, Temer, PMDB, Aécio and PSDB. They are all guilty.
What a fucking clusterfuck.
Ganzlinger
Member
It's shameful that they kept her political rights. This country is a joke.
But the impeachment was well deserved at least.
But the impeachment was well deserved at least.
People that voted for Dilma voted on the illusion that there wasn't an economic crisis coming up, because they were lied to. Dilma herself tried to implement an austerity policy (via Joaquim Levy) and failed to gather support from her own party. Her numerous campaign lies caught up with her, and she completely lost support from people (single digit approval ratings) and Congress. Temer didn't turn on her to implement conservative ideals or any other nonsense like that, he did it to save his own skin.
Most of the support I'm seeing towards PT seems to come from an anti-elitist movement, rather than a true pro-nationalist feeling. People seem to gloss over the absurd amount of dirt and corruption during this 12 years like theres nothing to see there. Kinda sad. (Talking about twitter, btw)
ninjaurbano
Member
On the contrary, it's very positive to see bad politicians paying for crimes - with complete support from the majority of the population. It would be much worse if nothing happened. It only reinforces our democracy and institutions.
Yes. People ignored the corruption during all those years and it only got worse. What happened after electing PT again in 2006 and 2010, even after all those corruption scandals? The corruption got worse and worse, as we can clearly see right now.
I can understand people without access to education voting for PT, but there is a lot of support coming from educated persons. It boggles my mind.
I have to admit, the media did a great job selling this whole coup as a completely natural and healthy process, and making the pro-Dilma protests look like a gathering of uncivilized subhumans looking for something to destroy
I'm in conflict.
I really don't buy into the corruption claims (for her alone, not the party itself which is of course corrupt). The reason she was ousted is a joke, even the people judging her say she was innocent of those specific charges.
But she was *so* incredibly incompetent, and everyone around her so corrupt.
And the people in power now are even worse.
It's a lose lose situation.
I really don't buy into the corruption claims (for her alone, not the party itself which is of course corrupt). The reason she was ousted is a joke, even the people judging her say she was innocent of those specific charges.
But she was *so* incredibly incompetent, and everyone around her so corrupt.
And the people in power now are even worse.
It's a lose lose situation.
Road of Ease
Member
Yes, I also love the editorial of Estado de São Paulo, part of our "fair and balanced" oligarch media, describing PT voters as people either "without the ability to think" or "who take a bite of the state".
Brazil is nowhere near consensus on this. It's more socially divided than ever. And this political maneuver will only make it worse.
That elitist posture from parts of media is all kinds of awful. Especially when both sides are corrupted as all hell. In the end, what makes people angry is what they expect both sides to do with the power.
At my federal college, everyone was crying gallons because of this since they think Temer is going to privatize everything and make everything hard for everyone but the rich people. No one can say those are uneducated people, they just have different expectations.
In my case, i think Brazil with Dilma or Temer was completely fucked. I don't think getting Dilma out will do anything to the investigations, since it was clear that she wanted to shut it down too. I don't think Dilma was really corrupt, but she was absurdly incompetent and no one like that should hold that much power.
At my federal college, everyone was crying gallons because of this since they think Temer is going to privatize everything and make everything hard for everyone but the rich people. No one can say those are uneducated people, they just have different expectations.
In my case, i think Brazil with Dilma or Temer was completely fucked. I don't think getting Dilma out will do anything to the investigations, since it was clear that she wanted to shut it down too. I don't think Dilma was really corrupt, but she was absurdly incompetent and no one like that should hold that much power.
The PT got into power because people really, really wanted something better than the PSDB. I know tons of people who disliked the PT and kept voting for them to get rid of the PSDB. The same way I know people who will always vote for whoever is competing against the PT.
Very few Brazilians actually like or support who they vote for. When we say "left" or "right", we are picking which leg we'll get shot at.
Very few Brazilians actually like or support who they vote for. When we say "left" or "right", we are picking which leg we'll get shot at.
The worst part was LOTS of the people who voted against her was like "she was not corrupted but she was doing a shit job" and voted that she was corrupted.
EVERYONE knows that the impeachment was NOT because of the actual mentioned reasons for impeachment.
Here is AP talking about who are the ones that are now in the sucession of the country :
=P
And now we have Serra (a popular PSDB presidential candidate) and Aécio (both PSDB's president and the last PSDB presidential candidate) in important roles in the goverment ... the THIRD PMDB PRESIDENT THAT WAS NOT DIRECTLY VOTED !
EVERYONE knows that the impeachment was NOT because of the actual mentioned reasons for impeachment.
Here is AP talking about who are the ones that are now in the sucession of the country :
=P
And now we have Serra (a popular PSDB presidential candidate) and Aécio (both PSDB's president and the last PSDB presidential candidate) in important roles in the goverment ... the THIRD PMDB PRESIDENT THAT WAS NOT DIRECTLY VOTED !
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked