Insane Metal
Gold Member
Yes and yes.
But I swear I never imagined I'd read here on gaf brazilians calling this whole thing a coup. I'd expect this anywhere else but here. Wtf. :|
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Brazil's Senate ousts Rousseff in impeachment vote
- Thread starter nortonff
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Yes and yes.
But I swear I never imagined I'd read here on gaf brazilians calling this whole thing a coup. I'd expect this anywhere else but here. Wtf. :|
I don't bother talking politics here because, well, you have seen the level people go when talking about this. It becomes impossible to have an actual nice conversation about the subject, but people simply want their voices to be heard or accepted regardless of the circumstances.
So, in the end, all conversations become about who's louder and more insistent rather than something more productive. This isn't a problem just here, but with society at large.
Are you following it closely ?
They are impeaching her for something that even Temer did too, it was proven that it was not a crime, lots of people who voted are recorded saying it was not a crime what she did, it all started right next to the leaked audios saying that with her they can't stop Lava Jato from fucking up corrupt people like Temer and Cunha, the people who asked her questions asked questions that had NOTHING to do with what she is being impeached for, she was put in government to take Aécio and PSDB away from the goverment and PSDB and Aécio are the closest thing to Temer now which is already changing important points in the government (like taking out money from education and health), the judge responsible for the impeachment literally said "we finaly took out a political party that didn't wanted to leave" mentioning how PT is on the presidency of the country since 2003 because it was ELECTED BY THE PEOPLE in the most safe from problems election system in the world probably.
https://twitter.com/JanainaDoBrasil/status/771164761836879872
And other inconsistencies, like how praticaly nobody saw the defense, temer was proved to buy votes to impeach her, temer getting away from being judged by anything that happened while he did outside his goverment, temer not doing ANYTHING with half of the ministers who had leaked audios saying criminal stuff, inscluding conspirating for the impeachment .... and things like that I remember from the top of my head
NeoGAF.gif?
This is not a hivemind, why are people always so disappointed when they find out that the world doesn't agree with them on everything?
It's a rhetorical question, of course. The answer is because of the stupidity that political discussion has become with the prevalence of manichaeist views, with whichever side you're in being good, and the other, evil. They're, of course, always blown away by the fact that people they thought were alright are actually evil, and then get disappointed.
I still like plenty of users I disagree with, and don't "expect more" from them when it comes to opinions. I'll only get disappointed when I expect people to properly elaborate on their views and they just resort to offending others, not because of their actual views.
If your first thought when you see people with a different opinion is that they're not "evolved" enough, you need to grow up.
I guess in a way you could say that I expected more from GAF. Heh.
True, but you're leaving a somewhat relevant part of the conversations out of your post.
For example, how the reason they gave was that the spotlight would stay on them because of the whole impeachment debacle, they wanted the media and the people to diverge their eyes so they could do their shenanigans and try to stop the investigations. The conversations even mention Dilma going to João Roberto Marinho to try and get him to sway the public's opinion, and he said it wasn't possible to interfere, because the herd behavior was too strong against the government for them to be able to do anything.
One of the possibilities they talked about, in those conversations, was to bring Lula as a minister, so she would take a more formal role, to keep appearances, and he would do the actual governing, and they'd work on a deal to help everyone (including her and Lula) when the dust settled.
It would be pretty damning if something like that ever happened, wouldn't it?
There's also the Delcidio do Amaral confession, talking about how Dilma personally talked to him about trying to help Marcelo Odebrecht. And sure, these are just people talking, there's no evidence of that, but it certainly doesn't seem to be a problem when it's literally any name not from her party being mentioned.
And people who defend her still insist on this "she was punished for being honest" nonsense. The "every politician is rotten" and "PT didn't create corruption" narratives were far better than this latest one they're using.
just lol @ people saying that dilma was honest
do you guys, like, live in another planet? Cause maybe in there she was a honest
she was a corrupt, disgusting person. Just like Temer and a lot of our politicians, i guess
and really, anyone coming with the coup stuff is probably a child, right? I mean, there isn't any other (sane) explanation. This evil and good bullshit needs to stop. Grow up, guys.
i also find it funny dilma coming with the 'racism, sexism, homophobic' talk when PT didn't do anything to better the situation of anything in relation to any of those topics (especially LGBT). Finally, there's this notion that 'OH SHE WAS DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED it's ridiculous that we have a impeachment!!'
huhh did you expect an impeachment in a dictatorship? It's an resource used in extreme situations (like this one) to remove, legally, a president from his office, so, yeah
do you guys, like, live in another planet? Cause maybe in there she was a honest
she was a corrupt, disgusting person. Just like Temer and a lot of our politicians, i guess
and really, anyone coming with the coup stuff is probably a child, right? I mean, there isn't any other (sane) explanation. This evil and good bullshit needs to stop. Grow up, guys.
i also find it funny dilma coming with the 'racism, sexism, homophobic' talk when PT didn't do anything to better the situation of anything in relation to any of those topics (especially LGBT). Finally, there's this notion that 'OH SHE WAS DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED it's ridiculous that we have a impeachment!!'
huhh did you expect an impeachment in a dictatorship? It's an resource used in extreme situations (like this one) to remove, legally, a president from his office, so, yeah
Which is already better than Temer will do if he aproves the "Escola sem partido" ("school without political party"), a law that can arrest teachers if they teach ANY "controversial stuff" like respect to people from all identities or even teach evolution or socialistic revolutions.
ok but did i, say, like, that i enjoy temer or anything like that? i didn't even vote for PT in the elections. I hope he eventually falls too. Every single one of these people.
stop trying to justify bullshit with more bullshit.
A kind of passive-aggressive behavior that discouraged any kind of discussion prevailed in this forum when the impeachment process started, and I can see it's starting again with the arrival of our "Granjinha" so it's time to bail on the thread
It's been well established by now that this woman is little more than a religious nut
It's been well established by now that this woman is little more than a religious nut
when people go saying 'yo you supported the coup!! You can't have an opinion in this matter because you're wrong!! IT WAS A COUP!!' in passive-agressive ways do you want me to answer like that didn't happen?
Nice try, though.
Theoricaly that was basicaly what happened in 1985, an impeachment of a dictatorship =P
She was democratically elected to be take out because of something they are not voting for to put a dude who already cleared at least 4 of her social stuff to put the people who were democratically NOT ELECTED in power.
They didn't even started the impeachment as "she sucks at goverment" but that was what they were voting.
Collor was out because he was flooded in corruption. Dilma was not mentioned ONCE in the "delações premiadas", but both Temer and Aécio appeared in pretty much every single one.
I am not saying she was 100% honest, but she was BY FAR the closest we ever got in our history, SPECIALY compared to who are in power now, both presidency and the sea of white dudes as ministers
I think we had nice debates about the subject on the Brazil topic in the community, which is why is kind of painful to come here and do it all over again with a new audience that get their fractured news from places that, understandably, oversimplify issues from countries that are not their own.
Brazillians in here going "wtf" at any of the points should go over there and read what the people anti and pro impeachment are arguing. For foreigners, I don't know what I can say, we ourselves don't know exactly how to interpret all of this. My personal position is that this is but a chapter in a story that began with the riots of 2013 in which the "formal" demand was for better public transportation, but what was actually at stake was a population that felt their representatives didn't really represented them. In 2013 there was no economic crisis like the one we have now, it was our "arab spring", but just like the actual arab spring, the calls for democracy just reshuffled old elites and reawakened old grudges.
I think the issue now is that we had a loud minority who hated PT at all costs and another loud minority who loved PT at all costs and the impeachment, obviously, put these two groups at the spotlight. But I don't believe 2013 is dead yet. Now that the impeachment is consumed, that frustration is bound to boil up again. Every major party will try to hijack the frustration as being against their adversaries, but eventually they will have to realize that the insatisfaction won't go away without heavy political reforms.
We are, still, in the middle of a fucking outrage.
Brazillians in here going "wtf" at any of the points should go over there and read what the people anti and pro impeachment are arguing. For foreigners, I don't know what I can say, we ourselves don't know exactly how to interpret all of this. My personal position is that this is but a chapter in a story that began with the riots of 2013 in which the "formal" demand was for better public transportation, but what was actually at stake was a population that felt their representatives didn't really represented them. In 2013 there was no economic crisis like the one we have now, it was our "arab spring", but just like the actual arab spring, the calls for democracy just reshuffled old elites and reawakened old grudges.
I think the issue now is that we had a loud minority who hated PT at all costs and another loud minority who loved PT at all costs and the impeachment, obviously, put these two groups at the spotlight. But I don't believe 2013 is dead yet. Now that the impeachment is consumed, that frustration is bound to boil up again. Every major party will try to hijack the frustration as being against their adversaries, but eventually they will have to realize that the insatisfaction won't go away without heavy political reforms.
We are, still, in the middle of a fucking outrage.
I'm sorry, what? Dilma was mentioned. In a lot of them. Saying that Lula should be nominated for ministry. Talking about asking help from the supreme courts to clean other politicians. Mentioned in the pasadena mess. In the petrobrás stuff. She was there in every single one of them.
And honestly, who gives a fuck to what the politicians thought when they were voting? We all know, for a long time now that practically every political party in Brasil is fucked up. (PSDB, PMDB, PCdoB, PSOL, PT, DEM, etc) The beggining of the process and the process itself, however, was legal and valid, and that is what matters. We took a corrupt person from a corrupt political party out of the presidential seat. We can only hope and demand that this keeps going.
Like, right now we are a bunch of brazillians talking to each other in english. 
Oh, but just to show how fucked up politics is in Brazil. The link Platy posted earlier:
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/a4f3...sidency-accused-corruption?platform=hootsuite
I'll even quote the same thing:
So, the biggest city in the country is São Paulo, it is considered the most important mayoral ellection. PT's candidate is Haddad, his vice mayor? Gabriel Chalita. Yep. The very same mentioned above.
So, this is how it works if the story above is true (which I believe it is).
Temer, from PMDB, steals public money not even to himself, but for the election of his protegé, Chalita. The very same Temer then is a key participant of the impeachment, which the party of Haddad, calls a coup. But then, when Haddad wants a vice for his own, who he picks? Chalita, who is no longer at PMDB (again, we have 35 parties, jumping from one to another has no stress to it at all), but, given that Temer gave him 400k in the past, is to be assumed they are still close. This in the most important city in the country, it is the most watched and debated mayoral run and the mayor of the party who supposedly is on the receiving end on the coup picks as his running mate the protegé and fellow corrupt former member of the party of the man who supposedly orchastrated the coup.
Oh, but just to show how fucked up politics is in Brazil. The link Platy posted earlier:
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/a4f3...sidency-accused-corruption?platform=hootsuite
I'll even quote the same thing:
So, the biggest city in the country is São Paulo, it is considered the most important mayoral ellection. PT's candidate is Haddad, his vice mayor? Gabriel Chalita. Yep. The very same mentioned above.
So, this is how it works if the story above is true (which I believe it is).
Temer, from PMDB, steals public money not even to himself, but for the election of his protegé, Chalita. The very same Temer then is a key participant of the impeachment, which the party of Haddad, calls a coup. But then, when Haddad wants a vice for his own, who he picks? Chalita, who is no longer at PMDB (again, we have 35 parties, jumping from one to another has no stress to it at all), but, given that Temer gave him 400k in the past, is to be assumed they are still close. This in the most important city in the country, it is the most watched and debated mayoral run and the mayor of the party who supposedly is on the receiving end on the coup picks as his running mate the protegé and fellow corrupt former member of the party of the man who supposedly orchastrated the coup.
Every single one ? This one only has Juca, Sarney, Temer and Aécio and not dilma for example =P Odebretch which had more than 100 names ( full of pmdb people) also didn't had Dilma. And those are the 2 biggest ones.
So if you say that it needs to take everyone and EVERY political party is fucked, you are keep going for what ? Anarchy in the
You started small with Dilma now you are going to take who out ? TEMER ?
Every single one ? This one only has Juca, Sarney, Temer and Aécio and not dilma for example =P Odebretch which had more than 100 names ( full of pmdb people) also didn't had Dilma. And those are the 2 biggest ones.
So if you say that it needs to take everyone and EVERY political party is fucked, you are keep going for what ? Anarchy in theUKBR ?
You started small with Dilma now you are going to take who out ? TEMER ?
Not anarchy, no. But we need to out the corrupt ones, and that is going to take TIME, long term stuff, things brazilian aren't really keen on considering the measures and politicians we support. Also, funny that you use this gif because it was used with me once when i said that eventually the impeachment would happen. Strange turn of events.
And yeah, those two ones, maybe. (i don't really remember and i'm not really keen on trusting people on politics debates on the internet cause they always make shit up)
The OAS stuff (that leaked) had her, though. Pasadena too. Why are you ignoring that? Also youseff already said that dilma knew and was involved in every single stuff happening with petrobras.
Like, right now we are a bunch of brazillians talking to each other in english.
Oh, but just to show how fucked up politics is in Brazil. The link Platy posted earlier:
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/a4f3...sidency-accused-corruption?platform=hootsuite
I'll even quote the same thing:
So, the biggest city in the country is São Paulo, it is considered the most important mayoral ellection. PT's candidate is Haddad, his vice mayor? Gabriel Chalita. Yep. The very same mentioned above.
So, this is how it works if the story above is true (which I believe it is).
Temer, from PMDB, steals public money not even to himself, but for the election of his protegé, Chalita. The very same Temer then is a key participant of the impeachment, which the party of Haddad, calls a coup. But then, when Haddad wants a vice for his own, who he picks? Chalita, who is no longer at PMDB (again, we have 35 parties, jumping from one to another has no stress to it at all), but, given that Temer gave him 400k in the past, is to be assumed they are still close. This in the most important city in the country, it is the most watched and debated mayoral run and the mayor of the party who supposedly is on the receiving end on the coup picks as his running mate the protegé and fellow corrupt former member of the party of the man who supposedly orchastrated the coup.
Yeah Brazil makes house of cards look like child's play. It's astounding the amount of shit we go through and that happens here.
I wonder if that's any worse than we already have...
http://www.gazetadopovo.com.br/opin...-dia-de-doutrinacao-9h6uhok4s1mlk1aks1gp0zsxk
http://appsindicato.org.br/index.php/orientacoes-para-o-dia-10-de-junho/
Long Story short: A sindicate which supports the Worker's Party decided to teach kids how to think correctly about the political situation in Brazil.
Yes, it would be worse. Significantly worse. An union suggesting to their members that they might organize debates about the subject using biased propaganda as a fundament is not good, but it is nowhere near the level of criminalizing teachers who teach about identity politics.
Fortunetly for us, I think Platy is throwing out a smoke screen because the project very probably wouldn't pass as it is already deemed unconstitutional by a bunch of people who matters.
I recommend you seeing the material. It's disgusting.
It wasn't about teaching politics with a little tendency or organizing debates, it's more about brainwashing kids. Kids are highly susceptible to sugestion and, surprisingly because of that, we have very strict laws about marketing towards children here in Brazil.
Unfortunately, it seems this hasn't been applied to the schools.
Hell, kids should be worried about playing and cartoons, not politics.
It's easy (and quite fair) for us to assume the worst case scenario. But we also cannot ignore that there is some merit that there are things that shouldn't be taught to children.
How this project from Temer would work and how it would affect out education is another discussion entirely. It would be better to discuss if we actually had what they are proposing that cannot be taught in the classroom.
I WISH .... I mentioned this because the Education Ministry is INSANE (in the link, he used the non voted project to make an university to change it's position related to a black history class because of a passing mention of something that has a huge wikipedia article )
If it was any other ministry, I would have believed, but the dude is from Democratas political party, both known for complaining about basicaly EVERY MEC (education ministry) choice for the past decades, from enem to racial quotas
Yeah. When stuff like this
Is in our education books, something is wrong.
The only problems is those are talking about Utopian Socialism, not actual USSR communism. And since it is utopian ... I have no problem of looking like an ... utopia =P
You say like this is bad but I went to a Christian School and this is NOTHING compared to the stuff there =P
No, the problem is lying and inducting children and young people to believe that kind of shit. Of course it isn't talking about USSR communism (in the form it should, like, showing the absolute disaster it was), because most people like to romantize or make that look good.
And what? What kind of Christian School? Cause i went to one too. It was actually pretty great. They encouraged stuff like theathre, music, dancing and art. And to, you know, actually think and question stuff.
That book was rejected in 2007, I think. There are editions floating around because, well, some schools are so poor that they still use books from 2007. And I agree it is bullshit, but "escola sem partido" is another bigger bullshit that is a directed and targeted assault against the LGBT community (it says that "gender theory" is an ideology and that, therefore, it shouldn't be taught) and also creates a weird legal grey area where if a parent doesn't agree with what is taught (say, evolution in the case of fundies) they can go directly to the police (!) who will do... .... nobody knows?
It is a crappy law and it is using legitimate complaints about what certain specific textbooks and teachers to impose very broad and murky rules about what goes on in the classroom. The remedy against "ideology in the classroom", either from the left or from the right, is for civil society to keep a close eye on what are the textbooks and for parents to ask their kids what they learned in school.
My "wtf" moment is having to come here explain why is dangerous for laws that allows for parents to call the cops on teachers based solely on what they are teaching.
It is a crappy law and it is using legitimate complaints about what certain specific textbooks and teachers to impose very broad and murky rules about what goes on in the classroom. The remedy against "ideology in the classroom", either from the left or from the right, is for civil society to keep a close eye on what are the textbooks and for parents to ask their kids what they learned in school.
My "wtf" moment is having to come here explain why is dangerous for laws that allows for parents to call the cops on teachers based solely on what they are teaching.
Stone Ocean
Member
Christian schools are private organizations that you need to choose to actually enter. Its nowhere near the same.
GAF is a pretty leftist community, and unfortunately the brazilian left likes to defend shit parties just because they claim to be leftist.
That's why I don't even join the discussions about this issue here anymore. I tried, believe me, but it wasn't worth it.
Anyway, yay!
Tomasoares
Member
Honestly they just claim it's a coup because who's replacing her is from PMDB, which is indeed a corrupt party and is (supposedly) a right-wing party. So corrupt left > corrupt right, then lets call it a coup lol
I'm against the "escola sem partido" thing, though. I think this is populist right-wing program and might even backfire on future, like a extreme-left wing president assuming and using it to reinforce his "indoctrination".
I'm against the "escola sem partido" thing, though. I think this is populist right-wing program and might even backfire on future, like a extreme-left wing president assuming and using it to reinforce his "indoctrination".
Yeah. When stuff like this
Is in our education books, something is wrong.
Lol. So does socialism mean we chill while robots do all the work now?
Myke Greywolf
Ambassador of Goodwill
In a respectable democracy, the WHOLE cabinet would have been deemed unfit for government, and new elections would be called to replace it all.
That this did not happen, and instead a new government that has a totally different stance than the one which was elected was put in place by the vice-president (which, I remind, is supposed to be a person of the president's trust, and not a payoff for a convenient political alliance) is a testament to the joke that the brazilian democracy is, and an obvious clue to what this whole deal really was.
That this did not happen, and instead a new government that has a totally different stance than the one which was elected was put in place by the vice-president (which, I remind, is supposed to be a person of the president's trust, and not a payoff for a convenient political alliance) is a testament to the joke that the brazilian democracy is, and an obvious clue to what this whole deal really was.
If a teacher taught your children about homophobic behavior or intolerant behavior or about extreme religious behavior, I don't think it would be far fetched to call the police. Obviously, those are extreme case scenarios.
I agree with you that in the best case scenario it would be to the civil society, parents and the school itself to regulate those things, but as I have seen on news and heard from teachers of mine, that isn't happening on reality.
On the other hand, I haven't read the law project to see if it helps those questions or make it worse.
Being fair, the actual elected government made a complete 180° after the elections.
So if we are doing another 180° on top of that 180°, wouldn't it mean that the current government is what people voted for ?
It is not a coup because who is replacing her is from pmdb, it is because who is replacing her is BFFs with PSDB, the political party who LOST the elections
and the juca audios and the fact that nobody voted for her impeachment for the reason they should be voting and ....
gutter_trash
Banned
the guy surfing the web on the right of the 2nd picture, LOL
Myke Greywolf
Ambassador of Goodwill
Your post is facetious and does not address my point. If a government does not uphold their promises, then there is a place for it to be punished for it: the urns. That's how democracy works.
Cute.
So no matter what they say before elections and do after, it's cool because the votes have already been counted and the public opinion stays frozen for four years.
If I promise a government that will do x and, after the election, said government does y (the complete opposite) you have to ask yourself if the elections were actually valid. I mean, the one's voting were led to believe that the government would do X, thus the reason why said candidate won that vote.
In either way, even if it's elected by votes, by deception or by anything else, if you broke a law that allowed for the impeachment, well, you're going to have to take responsibility for it.
...on a trial focused on said broken law, not how someone has "governability" or whatever they did a good job or not.
And if you were going to impeach politicians for lying .... LOL you can count on one hand the amount of politicians that would not be impeached in the HISTORY of the country =P
Two wrongs don't make a right, so it would be nice to actually remove all of them. A government should have liability on what has promised and on what has delivered.
If they did what was promised, then great.
If they didn't, then they better have actual technical reasons for why they couldn't do it.
In the case of our ex-president, she had to make up the numbers of her first government to win the second elections. She had the actual numbers, she knew a recession was going to hit, but she choose not to tell anyone and worse, try to fake numbers to deceive people. Problem is, when you make up numbers in economy, a shit storm follows. And if you need to deceive people to put your government in a good light and win votes, I really have to ask what's the merit on the whole system.
Broken law or not, it's the law. In my opinion, she should have left right after TCU rejected her accounts. The whole impeachment is just an extension and a circus on top of that.
Insane Metal
Gold Member
Yeah, I'm not gonna bother. Not worth it.
Myke Greywolf
Ambassador of Goodwill
Of course you have, but you have to be pretty naive to believe that this practice wasn't done with the knowledge and complicity of other members of the cabinet! The whole cabinet stands on the shoulders of the leader, and if the leader is rotten, the whole cabinet should not be trusted, should be considered unfit for government, and new elections should be called. The whole vice-president succession thing should be only for when the president is no longer fit to rule for reasons that are not of their own responsibility, such as death, disease or forced absence. That is what I was arguing for in the first place, and to tell the truth, I don't even know what you are arguing for. :/
The thing about crime of responsibility is that it's tough to determine everyone who was responsible for it.
If, in a company, the CEO says do "X", what do you think it's gonna happen ? Everyone will do X, maybe regardless of the legal reasons, because if they don't they will be fired. The government isn't that different.
While I don't like Temer either, I don't think new elections would actually solve anything. If they were made in 2014 when Dilma was accused by the TCU, then sure. Today, make a election in a rush when no one has prepared for it, honestly, I would be surprised if didn't become a bigger circus than already is.
My only argument here is Dilma getting out is a good thing. She was a needle in a stack, but still a good thing. Discussing if Dilma or Temer will be worse than the other is, frankly, a waste of time of everyone here, people should actually come to think how to actually put up a good government in place. But, by my experience, thinking isn't a priority when it comes to the overall people in Brazil.
You know the "pedaladas" that was the reason Dilma was impeached and we had days and days of congress saying it was illegal and the worst thing she could have done ?
They just made it legal
They just made it legal
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