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Broforce skipping XBO due to Parity Clause, and "deal they couldn't refuse" w/ Sony

“As far as I know Microsoft has a clause in their contract where they won’t accept an indie game if it launches on Xbox after Playstation.”

The way he wired this is that he talked to Sony and didn't talk to Microsoft. It's lime he heard about the clause on a forum and didn't bother. I thought this clause was in flux and wasn't a hard rule. If so, the "idea" of this clause has damaged Xbox more than the reality of it's function actually has.

Yeah, but it shouldn't be up to the developer to beg MS for an exception. MS just needs to drop the policy, otherwise they risk devs not even trying.

Either way, this is a problem MS created and one MS can easily resolve. They just want their cake and the ability to eat their cake.
 

Montresor

Member
Everyone who says 'oh this will obviously hurt MS' is missing the point.

MS are not interested in bringing indie games to the platform unless there's immediate money to be made out of it. They don't want a game that only shifts 10k units, they only want the indies that are going to be breakout hits.

So they don't care that they're getting less than half the number of games, what they care about is making sure they get the 'right' indie games. If ever a game does come along that looks like it's going to be that breakout hit (a la Minecraft) you bet they'll be there ready to swoop in with a moneyhat and lock that exclusivity down.

MS is one of the most short-term orientated tech companies out there. They're infamous for not getting aboard the long-term trends in tech until they've already passed. They either haven't cottoned on to what Sony have already realised (that a diverse indie portfolio has a halo effect for your brand) or they don't care about it. What they want are the indie games that sell millions of units, nothing less.

MS wants to make money. You make money by increasing your install base and offering them a wide array of software. It does not hurt them if some no-name indie releases a niche title and sells 5000 units to hardcore enthusiasts. They make more money out of that than not selling any units of that same niche title.

The issue is some moron at Microsoft has decided the parity clause is a good thing on paper and the same moron at Microsoft has decided the parity clause is a good thing in execution. And some sane-minded individuals with not enough clout are occasionally bending the rules of the parity clause (but not far enough - where's my Transistor? where's my The Witness? where's my Don't Starve?).
 
It seems that Sony only has temporary exclusivity, but due to MS's policies, Sony now has de facto exclusivity.

That's how I read it as well. Sony moneyhatted a "first on console" deal, the parity clause means that it can't be released on Xbox anymore. Does anyone have a different interpretation?
 
Weird, Microsoft can't drop the price of the Xbox One fast enough, but they cling to this misguided clause with such fervor. More importantly, is there a release date? Can't wait to play it on PS4 and Vita looks so awesome.
 

c0de

Member
Wtf is this nonsense with Sony moneyhating the game? If Sony really did this then the statement would read completely different "i'm happy to announce that Broforce is exclusive for PS4 etc. pp.".

Perhaps that is explicitly why. Nowadays it's so important to choose the “right“ words that it's really serious business. This thread and many other show this.
 

EGM1966

Member
I really can't fathom why the parity clause is still there. It's not like MS hasn't changed bigger stuff with XB1 since reveal.

They'll risk killing Kinect but won't drop a parity clause for small indie games?

I just don't get it.

It's definately both keeping games off XB1 as well as funnelling games towards PS4.

Just very odd.
 

Aske

Member
So pumped to play Broforce. Game looks mindblowing, and I rarely get jazzed about indie games. Announce a PS4 release date, please!

Hope it makes it onto Xbox eventually.
 
Indies have essentially replaced the middleware arcade ports that made up much of the early Live Arcade marketplace. Even if they weren't hot to start, 360 was still the place to be for that type of priced game at the time, as shown in Michanical's post. I mean, fuck, Shadow Complex? Why the hell don't they get the rights and act on that? Practically everyone likes it.

Oh I agree wholeheartedly that indies are the new 'AA' and 'B' games, I was just commenting on the suggestion that indies helped the 360 early in its lifespan, they didn't if you look at the releases of that time.

It all really took off in 2008 with Braid, Geo Wars 2, Ikaruga, Castle Crashers. Bionic Commando, N+ and many other games that not only rivalled retail releases, but sometimes surpassed them. It felt a little half hearted before that.

And yeah, it would be nice if MS did something about Shadow Complex. I'm sure EPIC would be happy to sell it or at least licence the IP to MS so they could work on a sequel...
 

Marcel

Member
I really can't fathom why the parity clause is still there. It's not like MS hasn't changed bigger stuff with XB1 since reveal.

They'll risk killing Kinect but won't drop a parity clause for small indie games?

I just don't get it.

It's definately both keeping games off XB1 as well as funnelling games towards PS4.

Just very odd.

It does speak to a strange culture when they are quick to drop an accessory that they poured tons of money into but can't put the parity clause (that hasn't benefitted them all this generation) out to pasture.
 
They obviously didn't try to grovel and beg Phil Spencer to allow Microsoft to make an exception. Should be easy enough to get on Xbox after that.
 
The issue is some moron at Microsoft has decided the parity clause is a good thing on paper and the same moron at Microsoft has decided the parity clause is a good thing in execution. And some sane-minded individuals with not enough clout are occasionally bending the rules of the parity clause (but not far enough - where's my Transistor? where's my The Witness? where's my Don't Starve?).

The parity clause is a very weird thing. I understand the principle behind it, nobody likes sloppy seconds (or sloppy thirds since the title was first available on PC). But it only really makes sense if you are the console market leader so that your platform is the place everyone wwants to be, and in such case you... don't really need a parity clause since your platform will be the first choice for a port anyway. So I'm not sure how it benefits Microsoft in the end.
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
It does speak to a strange culture when they are quick to drop an accessory that they poured tons of money into but can't put the parity clause (that hasn't benefitted them all this generation) out to pasture.

A strange culture? No, just short-termism. Kinect was a millstone. It was causing them immediate financial trouble. The indie clause isn't. Hence they'll drop the Kinect but not the indie clause.
 

Montresor

Member
It's devs fault, they should have begged MS to make an exception for them. /s

They obviously didn't try to grovel and beg Phil Spencer to allow Microsoft to make an exception. Should be easy enough to get on Xbox after that.

Lolz these two posts are great and really drive home the point of how awful this clause is. Why should an indie dev have to grovel to Microsoft to get an exception to an indie clause? And what if some god-like unknown developer releases something like Super Meat Boy or Dust or Bastion, beautiful and fun indie software, but they don't happen to grovel to MS for an exception, and the game flies under MS's radar.

BOOM - that amazing indie software will now never come to Xbox. It'll be a PS4 exclusive. But not because Sony funded the game. Not because Sony had an exclusivity agreement with the indie dev. Not even because the dev loves Sony or hates Microsoft. All of a sudden you have a quality game becoming a PS4 exclusive solely because of a dumb clause.
 
Perhaps that is explicitly why. Nowadays it's so important to choose the “right“ words that it's really serious business. This thread and many other show this.

I think this is unsubstantiated. What we know for sure:
MS does have this policy.
MS has defended this policy.
The devs have a deal with Sony.
The devs specifically cite the parody policy as to why it isn’t coming to xbox.

What others are only speculating without any evidence:
Sony secretly got full exclusivity as part of the deal.
The devs are lying.
 
If it was Microsoft who offered them "a deal they couldn't reasonably refuse", what's the probability that the thread title would contain the word "moneyhat" instead and that the conversation would be focused on that?
No becoming if that was the title everyone would assume they couldn't even release on ps4 just by looking at the history of things. Broforce talks about releasing on xbone as if it was still possible with their Sony deal the only thing stopping it is the parity clause
 
Is this Sir TapTap's first thread?

It sounds like they are just going by what they've heard for the parity clause rather than being refused. There's exceptions to the parity clause and if they tried they could be an exception too. Either way this parity clause is bloody ridiculous and needs to be removed.
 
I think this is unsubstantiated. What we know for sure:
MS does have this policy.
MS has defended this policy.
The devs have a deal with Sony.
The devs specifically cite the parody policy as to why it isn’t coming to xbox.

What others are only speculating without any evidence:
Sony secretly got full exclusivity as part of the deal.
The devs are lying.

Actually, the devs are saying that it was mostly because Sony made them an offer they couldn't refuse. Their words.
 

Marcel

Member
A strange culture? No, just short-termism. Kinect was a millstone. It was causing them immediate financial trouble. The indie clause isn't. Hence they'll drop the Kinect but not the indie clause.

Sony hits them with this every year at conferences, among other things. "Our massive library of indies" etc. You'd think they'd want to take themselves away from the bowls of shit they eat rather than ask for tenths. Microsoft could lean out of punches but they don't. That's why I said strange.
 

Montresor

Member
The parity clause is a very weird thing. I understand the principle behind it, nobody likes sloppy seconds (or sloppy thirds since the title was first available on PC). But it only really makes sense if you are the console market leader so that your platform is the place everyone wwants to be, and in such case you... don't really need a parity clause since your platform will be the first choice for a port anyway. So I'm not sure how it benefits Microsoft in the end.

A parity clause is great and vastly important and critical to a console's health when it comes to retail third-party games. I think that goes without saying, right? It would be absolutely unacceptable if an XB1 owner had to wait around for sloppy seconds for games like GTAV, Watch Dogs, Assassin's Creed, etc... Eff that. Maybe it's an unwritten rule or Sony and Microsoft somehow enforce this, but we have always seen release date parity with these retail games.

But the parity clause is remarkably dumb when it comes to indies - they are too small to be expected to launch their games simultaneously on two different platforms.
 
Phil still hard at work not doing anything about the parity clause.
Because Phil hasn't given up on XBone. If and when they gain significant market share and become too big to be ignored, then the parity clause will be awesome for them, because it means developers will have no real choice but to delay their PS4 games. If they don't have the resources to develop two versions of their games simultaneously, then that's even better for MS, because now that game becomes an XBox exclusive for a period of time.

It's like the DRM stuff. There's no reason to give it up unless it prevents people from buying the hardware. If people are buying the hardware, then the clause needs to stay, because the larger their install base, the more effective the clause becomes.

Am I the only one who thinks that having "exceptions" is more fucked up then when the parity clause is enforced for everybody equally. At least when it's enforced for everybody it's fair game for all. I mean you know what happens if you don't release it on the XBO at the same time. But now some can get exceptions, but based on what? The whole situation is just iffy imo.
Granting exceptions allows them to demonstrate how generous and reasonable they are. Plus, it lets them get the "big" games on to their platform as needed.


What does the parity clause do again?
This particular parity clause is launch parity. Basically, if your game comes to PlayStation first, then it's not welcome on XBox, ever. Simultaneous launches are permitted if you have the resources to deliver them, but if not, then you need to release on XBox first.

Devs are also held to feature parity, meaning if some feature is present on the PS version of your game, then you need to have the same feature on the XB version. If you can't have that feature on XB — either because it's technically infeasible or MS simply don't allow it — then you need to get Microsoft's permission before you can include it on the PlayStation version. As mentioned above, sometimes MS are generous enough to allow it, but if not, that extra development effort you put in to the PS version goes right down the drain.

I think feature parity is actually the more harmful clause — since it doesn't merely delay games, but actively stifles innovation in the industry — but for whatever reason, launch parity is the one that gets all the press.
 
“As far as I know Microsoft has a clause in their contract where they won’t accept an indie game if it launches on Xbox after Playstation.”

The way he wired this is that he talked to Sony and didn't talk to Microsoft. It's lime he heard about the clause on a forum and didn't bother. I thought this clause was in flux and wasn't a hard rule. If so, the "idea" of this clause has damaged Xbox more than the reality of it's function actually has.

This jumped out at me too. If indies aren't even bothering to talk to MS because of something they heard on the internets, MS has a problem. With their latest NPD victories I have a feeling that they won't change their policy officially any time soon though.
 

MMaRsu

Banned
Aside from some major titles, I do recall indie games being a big reason to own an xbox 360 early on.

Ofcourse. 7/8 years ago everybody was fawning over XBLA, the smaller but generally good quality titles it brought at inexpensive prices. Great games like Braid, Trials HD, Limbo and countless lther smaller games were being played and loved by gamers and critics alike.

Now all of a sudden we have this new generation amd some idiots are like " Eh I dont like any indie games". I meam there are still a ton of fun and smaller games heading our way, we should be grateful.

And thats where MS has it all wrong, because the clause is really hurting them.
 

Marcel

Member
Because Phil hasn't given up on XBone. If and when they gain significant market share and become too big to be ignored, then the parity clause will be awesome for them, because it means developers will have no real choice but to delay their PS4 games. If they don't have the resources to develop two versions of their games simultaneously, then that's even better for MS, because now that game becomes an XBox exclusive for a period of time.

It's like the DRM stuff. There's no reason to give it up unless it prevents people from buying the hardware. If people are buying the hardware, then the clause needs to stay, because the larger their install base, the more effective the clause becomes.

Wake me up when the One gets a 2:1 on the PS4 at this point. Maybe another "promotional" price drop will do it.
 

Mengy

wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
It's like the DRM stuff. There's no reason to give it up unless it prevents people from buying the hardware. If people are buying the hardware, then the clause needs to stay, because the larger their install base, the more effective the clause becomes..

Sony with the PS4 has twice the install base of the X1 and they don't seem to need a parity clause. Your logic, and Microsoft's, is very flawed Serversufer.
 
The parity clause is a very weird thing. I understand the principle behind it, nobody likes sloppy seconds (or sloppy thirds since the title was first available on PC). But it only really makes sense if you are the console market leader so that your platform is the place everyone wwants to be, and in such case you... don't really need a parity clause since your platform will be the first choice for a port anyway. So I'm not sure how it benefits Microsoft in the end.

If you think of the parity clause as being conceived during the late 360 era, it starts to make more sense why MS thought it was a good idea and why they thought indie developers would just bend to their will.
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
Sony hits them with this every year at conferences, among other things. "Our massive library of indies" etc. You'd think they'd want to take themselves away from the bowls of shit they eat rather than ask for tenths. Microsoft could lean out of punches but they don't. That's why I said strange.

Yes, but it's not directly impacting their sales, like say, the Kinect (and $100 higher pricetag) obviously was.
 

Stanng243

Member
A parity clause is great and vastly important and critical to a console's health when it comes to retail third-party games. I think that goes without saying, right? It would be absolutely unacceptable if an XB1 owner had to wait around for sloppy seconds for games like GTAV, Watch Dogs, Assassin's Creed, etc... Eff that. Maybe it's an unwritten rule or Sony and Microsoft somehow enforce this, but we have always seen release date parity with these retail games.

But the parity clause is remarkably dumb when it comes to indies - they are too small to be expected to launch their games simultaneously on two different platforms.

There have been a couple of larger games that appeared on PS4, but haven't made an appearance on Xbox One. For example Bound By Flame was Xbox 360, Ps3 and PS4. It may be possible the parity clause stopped them from making a late port. Another unusual one is Tropico 5. Tropico 5 is PC/Xbox 360/PS4. No mention of an Xbox One version.
 

Marcel

Member
Yes, but it's not directly impacting their sales, like say, the Kinect (and $100 higher pricetag) obviously was.

Obviously not. As I said earlier, the biggest impact is probably PR and mindshare among indie developers. It might not be, say, a full bagged lunch with chips and a sandwich, but Sony is still eating it.
 
But the parity clause is remarkably dumb when it comes to indies - they are too small to be expected to launch their games simultaneously on two different platforms.

I would like to argue that in this specific case, of the Broforce devs and the deal they made with Sony, the parity clause is offering the proper response to their decision to accept the moneyhat. I would also argue that in cases of moneyhatting in general the parity clause is useful to deter indie devs from accepting said moneyhats from the competition as much as possible.
 
The problem is that Sony likely didn't pay for an exclusive, just helped them develop it so they could push it to PS4, but because of the clause, it might as well be exclusive. This is on Microsoft for their stupid clause, not because Sony wanted it first.
To be clear, under Pub Fund, Sony cover most/all of their development costs, and in return they get a larger cut of the sales and timed exclusivity. The developer gets to make their game with "no" risk, and they get to retain their IP.
 
Even if they didn't actively block anyone, it has had the opposite effect. Many indie developers do not consider the Xbox One because of even the thought of dealing with the parity clause.

That's kinda of my point. The clause backfired, but I don't think their intent was ever to block devs from releasing on their console.

And at this point it's clear it has to go. (Hopefully at 21st it will be gone when they finally announce the unified store)
 

Chobel

Member
I would like to argue that in this specific case, of the Broforce devs and the deal they made with Sony, the parity clause is offering the proper response to their decision to accept the moneyhat. I would also argue that in cases of moneyhatting in general the parity clause is useful to deter indie devs from accepting said moneyhats from the competition as much as possible.

So you think every platform holder should adopt this parity clause?
 

arevin01

Member
Meh MS has no interest really in indies. Their thinking is Indies should be grateful they even have an option to have their games on the XB1.
 

_machine

Member
That's how I read it as well. Sony moneyhatted a "first on console" deal, the parity clause means that it can't be released on Xbox anymore. Does anyone have a different interpretation?
Pretty much yeah, expect imho moneyhatting is not the right term when Sony are paying the development budget. Sony is only getting the normal cut they get from any other game on the store and limited exclusivity. That is a deal that not many indie developers can refuse.
 

Marcel

Member
Meh MS has no interest really in indies. Their thinking is Indies should be grateful they even have an option to have their games on the XB1.

I think there are some good people among their staff who want a better environment for indies on the platform, but are stifled by corporate glad-handers who don't want to deal with it because it doesn't affect them or their bottom line directly. Shortsightedness, as someone else mentioned earlier.
 
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