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[DigitalDevil]

Last time I read a comic book was in '98 while in High School; I was passing a Wolverine comic to a friend while in class, and it was intercepted by this girl I had a huge crush on. She laughed uncontrollably for about 1 minute at the prospect of me reading a comic book. I haven't touched one of those since.

wow... that's pretty sad, dude.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

I'm a complete outsider to the american comics culture. The biggest issue I find is one that has been mentioned several times: the fact that it is almost impossible to keep up with what is going on without buying several different series of comics.

For instance I was given a set of George Perez' run of Wonder Woman, and I absolutely loved it. It was all self-contained, and while some knowledge of previous WW could be beneficial for a few references, it was completely non-essential. I've been lent the run of Fable, which I have to read, and again, I've been enjoying it because it isn't all over the place and there's no magical 'reset' button being pushed every five minutes with most of the superhero comics.

The biggest problem with the comics industry that I can see is that there are too many writers working on the same property, and none of them own their work (when it comes to the big properties).

Essentially I'll probably never purchase comics unless I've been told exactly what issues/collections to buy which create a full and completed story arc.

 

[p_xavier]

Essentially I'll probably never purchase comics unless I've been told exactly what issues/collections to buy which create a full and completed story arc.

This is why I will never buy american comic books. My OCD prevents me from buying something I can't complete. For Mangas and European comic books, it's one straight series, so I buy them.

 

[Manmademan]

I'm a complete outsider to the american comics culture. The biggest issue I find is one that has been mentioned several times: the fact that it is almost impossible to keep up with what is going on without buying several different series of comics.

For instance I was given a set of George Perez' run of Wonder Woman, and I absolutely loved it. It was all self-contained, and while some knowledge of previous WW could be beneficial for a few references, it was completely non-essential. I've been lent the run of Fable, which I have to read, and again, I've been enjoying it because it isn't all over the place and there's no magical 'reset' button being pushed every five minutes with most of the superhero comics.

The biggest problem with the comics industry that I can see is that there are too many writers working on the same property, and none of them own their work (when it comes to the big properties).

Essentially I'll probably never purchase comics unless I've been told exactly what issues/collections to buy which create a full and completed story arc.

And yet, at the same time as someone who used to SERIOUSLY collect comics in my youth, it's interesting to note that nothing ever "really" changes.

Popular Characters will always be brought back. There will be a world spanning crisis every year, that will be completely forgotten the next year. Relationships will pop up frequently but rarely be serious and result in children. When they are, those children will usually be magically aged (Cable), or otherwise bizarrely written out of continuity (spider man, scarlet witch). Again there are exceptions (damian wayne, franklin richards) but for every one of those, there's a dozen that prove the rule. Hell, Ms Marvel got pregnant, had a child who magically grew up and brainwashed her into marrying him before vanishing into continuity oblivion.

someone else may have said it before, but mainstream comics are certainly stuck in a "rut" of pandering to fanboys who hate change.

 

[FLEABttn]

:lol

Seriously?

This isn't that only affects the books. Marvel Ultimate Alliance makes no god damn sense unless you have decades of backstory this in your head already.

 

[CaptainMintMan]

The Internetz.

 

[Deku]

The early nineties saw a period in comic-book history where the industry almost comitted suicide through greed, arrogance and stupidity. I was a lifetime comics buyer at that point. Moving from Spider-Man to the X-Men, to the Tick and beyond.

Then the speculators came. And like the sports card market before it, they took comic-books straight to hell. People were buying the books not because they loved them, but because they thought they could make a profit reselling them. This encouraged the industry to pump out gimicks.

First issues were more collectable? Start more titles — or better yet, cancel a title that has been running since the ’60s then restart it the next month at #1. People were buying more than one copy? Release six “variant” covers of every issue. Kill Superman. Cripple Batman. Give Spider-Man an evil clone. Holograms. Foil embossing. Die-cut covers. Every dirty trick in the book was tried to make consumers buy comics they didn’t love and didn’t need (except improving quality.) And it worked.

For a while.

good read

Good link. I read through it through lunch at work and and now just finishing the final chapter.

The insanity described above is absolutely stunning.

 

[Rafa=FedKilla]

My local grocery store stopped stocking Archie Comics. I was disappointed, now I have to go the comic shop to get them.

 

[KAL2006]

My mate just downloads all his comics from torrents and and other sources and views them on his iPad. I guess that is one reason they are dead, illegaly downloading comics for free (I am guessing the download size would be quite small)

 

[Roto13]

You know, a few of those massive crossover events actually do have lasting effects. You can still see the effects of things like the Civil War and Secret Invasion in the Marvel universe. And House of M, kinda. ("No more mutants")

 

[Risible]

I've been into comics on and off going on 35 years now. My most recent hiatus was probably around 15 years or so. Many posters in this thread have it right - the price, the monthly wait, the ridiculous number of titles one most buy to follow a particular arc or event - all combined to drive me away.

What brought me back? Trade paperbacks. The selection now-a-days is amazing. Complete arcs wrapped up in nice books that are competitively priced. Amazing art and great stories. Tons of niche and arty stuff available. It's a great time to be reading comics, as long as you don't buy the single issues.

Check out the Invincible ultimate collections on Amazon. Huge books done by a great writer (Robert Kirkman) with terrific art. So much fun.

 

[Ikael]

I have always find utterly ironic how JRPGs gets beaten and critisized to hell and back on GAF for being full of cliches and clinging to traditions while the comic industry commits the very same faults and somehow get a pass. And I love both, mind you. But if I would have to delve deeper into why the comic industry is on its current state I would say that there are mainly 3 factors:

- Infinite sagas expensive to read and impossible to follow (see also: Civil War, infinite crysis and the like) instead of self contained books, which are way more accesible and easier to follow for the casual / sporadic reader. I never, ever recomend any kind of weekly comic to any friend of mine that wants to get into this medium. Seriously, this is one of the most seriously retarded, unaccesible format that I have ever saw in any media.
- Lack of distribution on kiosk / press stations / libraries comics now are confined into specialized "comic book" stores. Guess what, people that read regularily might want to check out some comic if said comic is located you know, where the rest of the printed media is sold
- Barely any "entrance comics" for the new public, the industry is obsessed with an otaku / obsessed nerd type of reader. No industry can prosper without new readers / viewers / whatever. There are movies for kids, manga for kids, videogames for kids, yet barely any comic for kids. And let's better not talk about comics for - gasp - girls. Even the oh, so much otaku and wacky jappy manga have an extensive offer for female readers.

In short: read the "manifesto" that Warren Ellis wrote at the beggining of Global Frequency and you will get a good idea of what happened.

 

[Roto13]

Stuff like Civil War isn't that hard to follow. Each series still has its own self-contained story, they're just all in the same setting. If you know the basic premise (in that case, "Iron Man thinks superheroes should register and Captain America doesn't, so they're fighting") you're pretty much good to go. The important stuff happens in the Civil War miniseries.

 

[The Take Out Bandit]

Wow, reading this thread makes me think new readers and younger people are just weak.

When I was young and interested in a comic; I just jumped in and ran with it. There used to be editorial boxes that explained, or referenced past events in the margins, and that was that. Now each damned Marvel comic starts with the first page as an essay recap for you people; and you still don't like it, meanwhile it's ruining my comic reading experience.

Digital comics could be huge if Marvel / DC would get a clue. Price the damned things at 99¢ a pop and be done with it. That crap Marvel pulled with the Iron Man annual won't fly.

Screw the collector market! Don't like that I can get digital copies of Kamandi to read on my ipad or whatever? Too bad! I want to read Kamandi, not blow two months of pay to buy dead trees!

I absolutely cannot abide the second hand market. Also a huge hater of stuff going out of print.

An aggressive and affordable digital comic market would be great! I was just bagging some sh*t I picked up to read, and I now have ANOTHER stack of comics; and honestly this is another stack of sh*t I DON'T WANT IN MY HOUSE. I only want print copies of stuff by artists and writers I like. Everything else I'd be content with cheap digital copies of to read.

Listening to Veronica Belmont, or Felicia Day, on TWiT talking about how they love to read "Bodice Ripper" novels on their e-readers because they don't have to suffer the embarrassment of lugging around a cheesy novel is EXACTLY what comic companies should be paying attention to. A lot of folks are still very afraid of reading comics in public in America. Put that stuff on an e-reader and you've blown the doors off the place!

Kind of a weak point. That's like saying video games are far less than they were in 1995 so their current pricing model of $60 is still a bargain. $11 is too much for a manga. That being said you can get them for $5 new on Amazon in which then they are a bargain.

Not a weak point. Adjusting for inflation we're still getting away with murder on manga prices! Just the way the world is. These are LUXURY ITEMS. You don't need comics, video games, or movies to continue living.

And yes, informed consumers will always have a leg up over morons buying at retail. I buy a ton of stuff off of Amazon regularly, it's just common f'ing sense for someone who isn't made of money.

If you want floppies on the cheap discountcomicbookservice.com is a great resource. I'd still rather just have a legitimate digital outlet.

 

[Manmademan]

You know, a few of those massive crossover events actually do have lasting effects. You can still see the effects of things like the Civil War and Secret Invasion in the Marvel universe. And House of M, kinda. ("No more mutants")

yeah, but those are RECENT. How many lasting effects can you think of from say...Rise of the Midnight Sons? Maximum Security? X-tinction Agenda? Phalanx Covenant? Atlantis Attacks? Days of Future Present? Evolutionary War? God damned Marvel vs. DC? which SHOULD have been the biggest crossover of all time?

exactly.

 

[The Take Out Bandit]

yeah, but those are RECENT. How many lasting effects can you think of from say...Rise of the Midnight Sons? Maximum Security? X-tinction Agenda? Phalanx Covenant? Atlantis Attacks? Days of Future Present? Evolutionary War? God damned Marvel vs. DC? which SHOULD have been the biggest crossover of all time?

exactly.

Marvel Vs. DC was such a cop out.

Spoiler

NO WAY WOLVERINE BEAT LOBO, NONE!

 

[Manmademan]

Marvel Vs. DC was such a cop out.

Spoiler

NO WAY WOLVERINE BEAT LOBO, NONE!

That one was decided by fan vote, so fanboys only have themselves to blame.

 

[The Take Out Bandit]

That one was decided by fan vote, so fanboys only have themselves to blame.

I seem to recall that EVERY fight was up to vote. Which is shit story telling as you have to wait to tally votes and then insert random shenanigans? BLECH!

 

[Mr. B Natural]

You can only go round and round in circles for so long till people want to get off your ride. That's what happened/happening with comic books, adventure games, jrpgs, horror games, tetris style puzzle games, rock music, etc and that's what's gonna happen to movies, music and video games as a whole if people start realizing that art is forever and gimmicks and business disguised as art/entertainment are not. There will be 1 or 2 things left in your genre (like starcraft, batman, or final fantasy) that the populous will enticed to hop back on your ride for a few days, but overall, that bus is going in circles and only a small niche of people are willing to ride it for the long run. Typically that niche slowly shrinks until it becomes too small to survive and be relevant.

And yet, people will be reading Catcher in the Rye, listening to Beethoven and watching Casablanca 100 years from now. They may not be making Transformers 3: Derp a derp bucks in the short run, but that's not what keeps things alive in the long haul. Our culture no longer cares about that as if we subconsciously think the long haul may not exist or something.

Comic books and their history encompass the modern style of business in art. It became a rampant cash grab and it got what it deserved. You'd think we learn, but we haven't. It's safe to say, imo, that the comic industry was ahead of its time.

Besides that overly deep junk I just typed, the addictive collecting of comics became obsolete when ebay came out and turned the world into one giant obscure comic book store. Ebay brought prices down dramatically and made collecting not so enticing. It killed the baseball card scene and I'm sure it caused a big hit for comics.

 

[Manmademan]

I seem to recall that EVERY fight was up to vote. Which is shit story telling as you have to wait to tally votes and then insert random shenanigans? BLECH!

Wiki says only 5 of the 11 fights were determined by fan vote, and then there was that whole Amalgam Comics business....

 

[Zeliard]

How did that Silver Surfer vs Green Lantern fight pan out? Isn't Silver Surfer supposed to be nearly invulnerable?

 

[Manmademan]

How did that Silver Surfer vs Green Lantern fight pan out? Isn't Silver Surfer supposed to be nearly invulnerable?

Surfer won. and yes, The surfer is basically Space Jesus. That guy has so many powers he makes superman look like he rides the short bus to the hall of justice in the morning.

 

[SpacePirate Ridley]

I don't know about the US or the rest of the world for that matter but in France comics (well bandes dessinées which is not exaclty the same thing) have been flourishing lately and the market is huge and diversified. Then again, over here comics have never been primarily considered as "kids stuff" and I don't know anyone who's never read comics and/or graphic novels.

Yep in France is huge, in Spain is a little less, but still big. At least for what I hear seems bigger than in america. Majority of europe seems to love the media.

In a normal city here you can find multiple comic stores full of manga, american comics, european comics and merchandising. Even in "multimedia/libary" stores like Fnac you find all this. Manga seems to have a priority, but you can find the majority of comics. We even have in a city like Valencia (and its only like a million people here) chains of stores in the same city, one near each other, that separate the media, for example, Imagenes Manga, Imagenes Comic and Imagenes Fantasy (mostly merchandise) or Futurama (mostly manga and american comic) and Futurama Comics (european comic), and lots of other stores surrounding them.
And theres always people buying in this stores, it surprises me to hear that the majority of americans are embarrass of entering a comic store.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

good read

So in a nutshell, they looked at the recent surge in their niche market and realized that that particular surge wasn't due to pulling in new readers but more so investors interesting in re-selling their comics. So instead of trying to draw those investors into readers through quality storylines, they instead tried pleasing them as much as possible with tons of gimmicks and crap to the point that it alienated casual consumers, pissed off the actual fanbase, and gave false hope to the temporary investor market. And eventually the investors got burned when they realized the special editions and #1 issues aren't worth shit if they aren't rare, the casual consumer was non-existent due to complicated story arcs and the lack of comics in general stores, and the existing fanbase got to frustrated and went on to other mediums.

So by the time the boom was over comic publishers were left with tons of overprinted material, their new majority market gone, their old faithful niche being significantly more niche due to a share of them leaving the medium during the past few years of insanity, overpriced material due to selling only to investors, and a huge disadvantage in retail space most publishers decided to sell only to comic specific shops instead of general stores, and now that comic books were a thing of the past the last thing general stores want to stock up on with a declining medium.

Is this spot-on?

Not a weak point. Adjusting for inflation we're still getting away with murder on manga prices! Just the way the world is. These are LUXURY ITEMS. You don't need comics, video games, or movies to continue living.

Umm no. Should Blu-Rays' not have dropped from their original $40 price range? How about DVD's original high price range? Should games still be selling for $80 a pop? Should I be paying $2500 for my new PC? I mean these are all luxury items I don't need any of these things? Not to mention we get so much more for our money. Blu-Ray's and DVD's of today are of much higher quality then the launch ones. Games today have far more content and better presentation put into them than the SNES days. And not only do iMacs and Pavilions absolutely desiccate all over the computers of two decades ago, but they have much longer life expectancies. Not to mention with inflation and the likes making all these products significantly more expensive then now in their hey day; $100 twenty or even ten years ago isn't $100 today.

Of course not. Things change. There's more competition in entertainment these days, and what was once spectacular and a good value isn't much so anymore. Not to mention the lower the entry price the more casual consumers you can pull in thus the bigger the market.

I understand some companies going the Macintosh route as in cutting off a share of your potential userbase by selling at high prices to make overall more margins, but if comic books want to come back into the mainstream and manga wants to stop declining the price is one of the huge barriers stopping them from that success.

I'm not sure why this is funny.

The thought of Batman traveling through time and interacting with Superman is just too strange to me.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

Wow, reading this thread makes me think new readers and younger people are just weak.

When I was young and interested in a comic; I just jumped in and ran with it. There used to be editorial boxes that explained, or referenced past events in the margins, and that was that. Now each damned Marvel comic starts with the first page as an essay recap for you people; and you still don't like it, meanwhile it's ruining my comic reading experience.

Honestly the biggest problem with the multiple streams is that multiple authors tend to write the same characters entirely differently. For instance, the Wonder Woman of the recent movie is entirely different from the one George Perez did. Perez' WW, was a character that I found extremely appealing as a person, whereas the movie version seemed to be just a 'generic' female badass fighter.

 

[The Take Out Bandit]

Umm no. Should Blu-Rays' not have dropped from their original $40 price range? How about DVD's original high price range? Should games still be selling for $80 a pop? Should I be paying $2500 for my new PC? I mean these are all luxury items I don't need any of these things? Not to mention we get so much more for our money. Blu-Ray's and DVD's of today are of much higher quality then the launch ones. Games today have far more content and better presentation put into them than the SNES days. And not only do iMacs and Pavilions absolutely desiccate all over the computers of two decades ago, but they have much longer life expectancies. Not to mention with inflation and the likes making all these products significantly more expensive then now in their hey day; $100 twenty or even ten years ago isn't $100 today.

Of course not. Things change. There's more competition in entertainment these days, and what was once spectacular and a good value isn't much so anymore. Not to mention the lower the entry price the more casual consumers you can pull in thus the bigger the market.

I understand some companies going the Macintosh route as in cutting off a share of your potential userbase by selling at high prices to make overall more margins, but if comic books want to come back into the mainstream and manga wants to stop declining the price is one of the huge barriers stopping them from that success.

It still costs less than it did in 1995! Manga fans today are not even CLOSE to paying how much shit cost 15 years ago man, not to mention Tokyopop triggered a massive overhaul of how Western companies released the material.

$2.95 for 22-26 pages in 1993!

For the sake of comparison, a Marvel comic from that time:

Everything about manga today in the US is leaps and bounds beyond how it was structured 15+ years ago.

Prices fluctuate. You have a multitude of choices as a consumer:

- Buy new
- Buy used
- Walk away

I'm just sick of people whining about things as a poor rationalization for their theft. In my eye you're not much of a fan if you're not willing to support your "favorite" creators.

I agree about pricing for monthly comics. For what it cost to buy three Marvel comics I can buy a volume of Sgt. Frog, which is 66 total pages versus 120+. I feel that it's crucial for comics in the West as an industry to remain relevant to hit an itunes-like business model where comics are readily available on demand for $1 a pop instead of $3.99 which is the average price these days. Also as I mentioned digital readers remove the social stigma a lot of folks are afraid of about reading a comic in public. It's asinine as comics are the ONLY entertainment medium I know of in the West where you're expected to outgrow it. That's insane! That's like saying I grew out of music / television / movies / literature.

Erik Larsen has pitched ideas but comic nerds crapped the bed and nobody listens to him.

Look at Batman – now – it’s had numerous spin-offs, tie-ins and titles. At one point as many as ten or more per month! All could be folded into one Batman book – or two – “Batman,” which could feature all spin-off titles like Catwoman, Batgirl, Gotham Nights, Birds of Prey, Robin and so on and “Detective Comics” which would feature a shorter Batman lead and detective-related features.

But, but – DC tried a weekly book, “Action Comics Weekly,” and it was a dud and Marvel tried a bi-weekly book, “Marvel Comics Presents,” and it ground to a halt after a while – why would this succeed if those floundered?

Because if publishers replaced their entire lines, readers would have no other options. The reasons “Action Comics Weekly” and “Marvel Comics Presents” eventually floundered were many, first – they featured a lot of second-stringers and (in some cases) weak art, their stories were often inconsequential adventures and the cover prices of these titles were higher than the monthly books. If a reader can get a full issue of Wolverine for less money than a more expensive book with an eight-page Wolverine story plus solo stories of Shamrock, the Arabian Knight and Willie Lumpkin, they’re going to pick Wolverine! These books were doomed from the start and they quickly deteriorated and fell apart as creative teams went elsewhere are weak filler was shoveled at the reader.

If I were DC I’d do one cartoon book, taking the place of all animated titles – Scooby Doo, Bugs Bunny and all the rest. Then I’d do “Batman,” “Detective Comics,” “Superman,” “Action Comics,” “Wonder Woman,” “Justice League,” “Flash” and “Green Lantern” –all other books could be broken up and serialized in those titles. The lines in many cases are obvious, in others not so much. Blue Beetle, Booster Gold and Teen Titans could fold into the “JLA” book – anything god or mythology related like Captain Marvel, the Demon or the Spectre could fold into “Wonder Woman” and so forth. There could either be a couple Vertigo books or have them be the exception and keep their current format if there aren’t features strong enough to carry a book.

At Marvel I’d do “Amazing Spider-Man,” “Fantastic Four,” “Incredible Hulk,” “X-Men,” “Avengers,” “Captain America,” “Thor,” “Wolverine,” “Iron Man” and “Daredevil.” X-titles like X-Factor or Deadpool would fold into “X-Men” or “Wolverine.” Plus books that often struggled could be given a few pages – not hopeless losers like Captain Ultra, Aunt May or Squirrel Girl but Namor, the Silver Surfer, the Inhumans, Dr. Strange and Nick Fury!

In both cases I chose historically important, long-running titles with faithful fan followings. In some cases, bi-weekly or even monthly titles might be better solutions. I know DC is contractually obligated to publish Wonder Woman monthly but maybe she can’t realistically headline a weekly book – so maybe she has a monthly book backed with great features. Maybe Marvel would do better alternating Daredevil and Iron Man every other week but the idea, I think, has real merit.

Both companies could produce the same number of pages that they are now but instead of having a monthly She-Hulk book, for example, which keeps getting axed and restarted her adventures could run in five-page, weekly installments running in the back of the Incredible Hulk.

STOP MAKING SENSE ERIK!

Honestly the biggest problem with the multiple streams is that multiple authors tend to write the same characters entirely differently. For instance, the Wonder Woman of the recent movie is entirely different from the one George Perez did. Perez' WW, was a character that I found extremely appealing as a person, whereas the movie version seemed to be just a 'generic' female badass fighter.

It doesn't help that DC / Marvel are all but too eager to reboot a character at the drop of a hat these days.

Wonder Woman has the misfortune of being an icon nobody knows what to do with.

This is why it's always best to follow creators in comics and not properties, errr "characters".

I could give a shit about Deadpool; but Jason Pearson isn't doing anything with Body Bags so I'll read this Deadpool shit because I love his art.

Was never an Avengers fan, but where Alan Davis goes I will follow.

So on and so forth.

Kind of sucks, but once you find your comfort zone; it's smooth sailing.

That Wonder Woman cartoon was atrocious. Then again, most of the DC cartoons that aren't stuff that ran on television are pretty atrocious.

 

[VGChampion]

Probably because I started reading them this summer and I'm a jinx.

 

[Roto13]

yeah, but those are RECENT. How many lasting effects can you think of from say...Rise of the Midnight Sons? Maximum Security? X-tinction Agenda? Phalanx Covenant? Atlantis Attacks? Days of Future Present? Evolutionary War? God damned Marvel vs. DC? which SHOULD have been the biggest crossover of all time?

exactly.

They're not THAT recent. House of M is from 2005 and Civil War is from 2006. That's more than the six-months-until-irrelevancy people throw around.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

another thing I hate is fucking crossovers. I wish each stories universes would exist independently. I don't need to see Superman in Gotham (though it is occasionally funny to see Batman kick his ass). It's so cheap and corny to me. If Superman really existed in Batman's world why wouldn't he be around and just do Batman's job for him? When Batman couldn't find Joker in Dark Knight why didn't Superman just come to town with his super hearing and Xray vision and find him in 2 minutes? In my perfect comic world I'd be able to buy ONE book (preferably a hefty TPB) and get all of the Batman story, w/o needing to read Superman or Wonderwoman or see Batman hanging out in space with the Green Lantern. Fuck that shit.

 

[IrishNinja]

...am i too late to get in on the Srsly = dumb post camp?

I enjoyed Wolverine and X-men more than that. Shame it only lasted 2 seasons, they were even going to do Age of Apocalypse for their next season, would have been awesome.

really? shit...wish i coudlve seen that.

this talk of the golden age of comics (huge readership in the 50's or so) is highly relevant, as we had pulp/other popular genres and id argue comics were more mainstream than theyve been in the US in other eras, sadly. how much of that do you put squarely on Seduction of the Innocent, though?

wait, nevermind, this:

The Comics Code after the Wertham debacle (an expert witness who did major damage, legally and in the mind of parents, to the kinds of comics that could be sold) killed most genres, especially war, crime, horror, and romance stories. EC Comics was essentially turned away from comics and moved Mad into the magazine space to keep it going. When nobody is getting hooked by anything but men in their underwear saving babies from buildings, a lot of people stop reading.

Those are the big things, especially that last one which we are STILL recovering from.

Now my added opinion? Superhero comics are selling better than the numbers we do see (as much as 30% more per title, I've been told, and a lot more for the few that are sold outside of the direct market or through subscriptions), but clearly not enough. The real sellers in the medium are the "classic" graphic novels, Persepolis, Maus, Sandman volumes, the kinds of books you'll find in a college classroom. But those aren't enough to keep things going as a medium. Either way, too many of us are looking at Spider-Man sales when the medium is doing well elsewhere. Manga included, though that as a fad is passing (I don't subscribe to books not being comics simply because they are Japanese).

The ongoing soap opera of superhero books is an obvious problem, but outside of a few known quantities, most creators couldn't sell a book disconnected to the beast. Editors and marketing just needs better tricks to keep the lines accessible at any issue.

Price is major. As with so many niche products, the companies realize they can make more by raising price and losing a chunk of their audience. Comics did this too many times, and the direct market audience is in a dire place because of it. I propose the return of cheaper printing methods for singles, and low priced digital downloads for the same content, while the ever-popular trades (sales don't track tradewaiting, by the way) are the higher-priced alternative with immaculate quality.

And, as implied by the Wertham comment, variety is key. I personally think That among trash like Teen Titans and some of the more shot X-Books, some of the best mainstream comics ever have been produced very recently: All-Star Superman, Batman and Robin, Ultimate Spider-Man, Invincible, many of the thrice-monthly Amazing Spider-Man stories, Brubaker's Captain America. And people aren't buying the exact same books; remember there was a time when Avengers was anything BUT the cornerstone of Marvel's publishing! With slight adjustments to marketing and editing, I think those books could be doing a lot better. But the biggest thing is new series. We need more Kirkmans, more Walking Deads, Criminals, Cassanovas.

And we need to see those books, for a good price, everywhere we can, digital, coffee shops, bookstores, drug stores. As it is, what kid who doesn't have comics shoved in his face is going to find them?

well said.

Take out Bandit:

Digital comics could be huge if Marvel / DC would get a clue. Price the damned things at 99¢ a pop and be done with it. That crap Marvel pulled with the Iron Man annual won't fly.

Screw the collector market! Don't like that I can get digital copies of Kamandi to read on my ipad or whatever? Too bad! I want to read Kamandi, not blow two months of pay to buy dead trees!

I absolutely cannot abide the second hand market. Also a huge hater of stuff going out of print.

An aggressive and affordable digital comic market would be great! I was just bagging some sh*t I picked up to read, and I now have ANOTHER stack of comics; and honestly this is another stack of sh*t I DON'T WANT IN MY HOUSE. I only want print copies of stuff by artists and writers I like. Everything else I'd be content with cheap digital copies of to read.

this, this, this (its good to finally agree with you on comics ). everyone in this thread saying comics are declining because the collector/speculator market that we just got done saying fucked shit up in the 90s is being pandered to...again, to quote Ellis: you want comics to stay the bastard child of pop culture, slowly dying while masturbating in a corner.
the fact that some (reasonably) had to ask what direct market is goes to show how shit a model that is to rely on almost exclusively; the shit-fest they threw when Jemas (hate him or love him, he was years ahead of the curve when heading marvel) put that Ultimate Spider-Man awesome hardcover as a barnes & nobles exclusive...there's no way to appease the direct market that you've foolishly left as your lifeblood (and is a rapidly dying market itself) without branching out. everyone keeps saying "MANGA", well, Jemas saw the same sales and knew a) venue and b) other genres than superheroes were big parts of the answers, but again, the problem with marvel and b) is that when asked "how do we tap into the huge female audience manga sometimes gets?", their answer is something like Mary Jane loves Spider-Man.

i always wanna give Dark Horse props for not playing ball with this setup Marvel & DC rely on, but until they start a digital catalog, they can print TPB's as fast as they want, they're still part of the problem in my eyes, as well.

ps

Last time I read a comic book was in '98 while in High School; I was passing a Wolverine comic to a friend while in class, and it was intercepted by this girl I had a huge crush on. She laughed uncontrollably for about 1 minute at the prospect of me reading a comic book. I haven't touched one of those since.

this is a horrible post, and makes me feel worse about your choice in women than the shape of the industry, man.

 

[Meier]

It's too fucking expensive. I used to buy manga but lost interest personally.. even still, I've read stuff like Fables and Y the Last Man and even the TPBs are pricey. I dunno, the time it takes to read them versus the cost just makes it an ugly proposition. I have only bought those two and Scott Pilgrim in the last 4-5 years probably.

FWIW, I find comics themselves more overpriced than manga. $3-4 for 25-30 pages? Absurdly overpriced. As far as manga goes, I just lost interest in both it and anime although not necessarily due to its cost. Manga does feel too expensive now though since anime has become so cheap. I was floored at the prices on Amazon.

 

[Dark Octave]

As Dragona said, too many hands (writing, artwork, ect) in the same IP kills it for me. It makes the property feel cheap when it's being passed around and rebooted so freely.

That Rob Lifield guy's art style took a big chunk away from my interest of American comics as well. How he became so popular will always be a mystery to me.

Japanese comics are for the most part, consistent and self contained. Easy for me to get into, follow and stay interested.

 

[siddx]

I gave up on comics when I started feeling like they were writing for a very small specific audience that I wasn't a part of.

 

[vazel]

It took those stories and ran them through those stupid rules for children's cartoons and neutered them. The scripts were terrible, though there were some pretty good voice actors. (Every version of Wolverine since then has sounded like a pussy in comparison to that version.) And it looks good in still frames, but the animation was pretty bad a lot of the time.

The storylines were based on 1960s-1980s X-Men comics. There wasn't much to neuter. The scripts actually benefited from the adaptation as it got rid of all the over-narration that many of the comics were prone to.

Yes the animation smoothness suffered from the issues that led Bruce Timm to push for stylized art for Batman:TAS but I still like the less stylized art which more closely resembles comic books. Both styles have their advantages and disadvantages.

 

[x Power Pad Death Stomp x]

I no longer read comics, and I haven't for about 3 years.

I'm 33 years old and I started reading comics when I was 4 years old. I never stopped buying them at all until about 3 years ago. I was spending about 300 -500$ a month on comics and then I began to whittle away at my "pull list". I was buying the books mostly out of habit.

They had become way too expensive. Obviously, there is going to be inflation, but 3 - 5$ is way, way too much.

The stories were shit. Rehashes of past stories or so layered in continuity that there were near unreadable. If I have been reading comics for 26 years straight and I can barely follow whats going on there's a problem. (I'm looking at you X Men).

The "One More Day" storyline in Spider Man was the final straw and I walked away from monthly comics. I still buy things in trade, Green Lantern, Walking Dead....

It's just too insular an industry. You can't get into it since you have no idea where to start, even worse, kids DO NOT read comics at all. Not like they did when I was young. If there hadn't been a spinner rack of comics at the local Dairy Mart, I would have never read a single one.

My daughter has read Bone and she loves it. None of her friends have ever even heard of it or read a single comic book. Kids with bedrooms covered in Spider Man and Iron Man posters and toys have never read a comic book. And that, that is why comics fail.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

It still costs less than it did in 1995! Manga fans today are not even CLOSE to paying how much shit cost 15 years ago man, not to mention Tokyopop triggered a massive overhaul of how Western companies released the material.

Not to offend, because I think you're definitely one of the better posters on GAF, but I don't understand why you keep bringing up the same argument over and over.

I've already stated twice that just because something use to be highly overpriced back in its hey day doesn't mean that it can't still be overpriced now despite it costing less. Yes manga was horribly distributed and overpriced 15 years ago, just like video games. It doesn't mean that there isn't room for improvement.

I don't really know what you want me to say here.

I do fully agree with you that comics have a huge opportunity in the digital book market. No more high costs of color paper. The first color e-ink models are due next year. Though to be fair they're going to be newspaper quality of color. It will be quite a while before you'll see iPad-like resolution on a color E-reader.

 

[Gallbaro]

What would you rather look at? Cartoons or "free" porn?

Same demographic.

 

[Dresden]

What would you rather look at? Cartoons or "free" porn?

Same demographic.

Free cartoon porn would solve everything.

 

[Gallbaro]

Free cartoon porn would ruin everything.

.

 

[Black-Wind]

For me the problem with super hero comics are . . .

The price/ the never-ending-stories (their like fucking soaps . . . walk in on a random day and can't tell head from tails of this stories)/ the constant changing of artist and art styles (really, why the FUCK can't I read a series without having to relearn the character designs because this artist decided that this character should look emo? Why do I go from loving the look of the comic to wishing to follow this artist because I don't like this new style and the other guy was fucking hot with his art?)/ the over rendered art/ the splintering of the characters with different universes and shit ("why are there 5 different Spider-Man book series on the rack mommy? I can't tell which is the one I read before :O")/ the REFUSAL to let go of these heroes and have them replaced by new ones. NO, they have to keep mucking up stories with different artist and writers who do tons of recons or completely ignore what was once in the character's story. WHY, because it's SuperMan, everyone loves him!/ the REFUSAL to expand super-hero-comics to a wider, more diverse readership. Over the years it has gone from "the new thing!" to "the boy thing" to "the strange geeky men thing . . . ewwww"/ its being lead by companies that couldn't give a fuck about expanding to these people, willing to rely on the shitty lil fanbase they have now.

Its silly to think that movies would do anything. People pay $10 for a kick ass movie . . . not for a chapter in a fucking story that means nothing because everything is splintered and reconned.

Full blown graphic novels are a whole other subject. I think thats one of the roads things will have to go . . . DD and graphic novels.

 

[kevm3]

There are so many other competing forms of entertainment. Instead of cracking open comic books, kids are on videogames, on facebook, browsing through the countless channels, etc.

 

[Major Williams]

There are so many other competing forms of entertainment. Instead of cracking open comic books, kids are on videogames, on facebook, browsing through the countless channels, etc.

Really the only thing that kept me interested in the industry was Michael Turner. The man was a god with a pen:

He will be missed. RIP Mr. Turner.

 

[Boonoo]

Honestly the biggest problem with the multiple streams is that multiple authors tend to write the same characters entirely differently. For instance, the Wonder Woman of the recent movie is entirely different from the one George Perez did. Perez' WW, was a character that I found extremely appealing as a person, whereas the movie version seemed to be just a 'generic' female badass fighter.

As Dragona said, too many hands (writing, artwork, ect) in the same IP kills it for me. It makes the property feel cheap when it's being passed around and rebooted so freely.

That Rob Lifield guy's art style took a big chunk away from my interest of American comics as well. How he became so popular will always be a mystery to me.

Japanese comics are for the most part, consistent and self contained. Easy for me to get into, follow and stay interested.

I think that a lot of you that are wary about jumping into American mainstream comics are making a fundamental error in your approach. You're concerning yourself entirely too much with IP and character content. If you chase after a character you're going to quickly become disillusioned and distraught for exactly the reasons stated above. Even though certain characters and universes and what not have certain appeal and flavor it's never going to be strong enough to carry you through.

More than anything else you need to instead follow the creative. Once you find artists and authors you enjoy (and usually in the beginning you find them by following a character through several teams--or through recommendations from friends etc) you just jump on what they're doing, and follow them through their run on some particular IP (for the mainstream stuff) and their wholly owned books on the indie side.

Wikipedia fills in all the other gaps. So if you jump on Bendis' daredevil run or Hickman's FF run all you need to do is read a quick synopsis to get up to speed. Then you jump off again when a new team picks up the reigns.

This solves a lot of the anxiety over never ending stories, because rather than looking for final 'The End's you should just be really be along for the ride to see what sort of interesting things a particular author or artist can do with this cast of characters.

A lot of these guys (and the few women working in comics) have their own creator owned things they're doing on the side (in most cases they draw readers to their indie work through their work on major IP), and this is where you'll find the complete story arcs.

The basic rule of thumb is to worry about who's writing the book, not who's in it, and Wikipedia fills in all continuity gaps.

 

[vazel]

^ Exactly. I'm following Brubaker on Captain America currently despite never having cared much for the character before. And when he leaves the title I'll probably stop reading Captain America again.

Also people need to stop just looking at mainstream DC and Marvel. There's Vertigo which is always good and smaller publishers. Warren Ellis recently did Ignition City for Avatar which I liked, he's also working on other titles with them.

 

[ILikeFeet]

Really the only thing that kept me interested in the industry was Michael Turner. The man was a god with a pen:

He will be missed. RIP Mr. Turner.

Is this series worth getting into? Been wanting to get more comics lately (more so that video games :O )

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

A little off-topic, but you know what I've always dreamed of? Having like mini movie series that was a crossover of Marvel/DC/Shonen. Think about it. Spiderman, Goku, Batman, Luffy, Ichigo, Hulk, Wonder Woman, Vegeta, Thor, Iron Man, Naruto, etc. all going up against Freeza, One Piece's seven warlords and three admirals, The Joker, the Silver Surfer, Cell, Magneto, Buu, etc.

The greatest in comics and manga come together for one massive epic. It would be amazing.

 

[Future]

If you chase after a character you're going to quickly become disillusioned and distraught for exactly the reasons stated above. Even though certain characters and universes and what not have certain appeal and flavor it's never going to be strong enough to carry you through.

More than anything else you need to instead follow the creative.

A very hardcore approach. If this is the ticket to enjoying comics, then they have failed. Naturally you are gonna start with IPs that interest you

I've always been a pretty big batman fan, and had recently moved near a comic store. This was the first time I actually had been in a position to follow comics easily (another failure of the industry really...why cant I buy most comics and Barnes and Noble or other big chain book stores). So I went for it. I know people say they are expensive but it wasnt too bad to me. 10 bucks and I could follow a few favorite characters.

I started when Identity Crisis was in full swing and thought it was amazing. The stories were better than old comics I had remembered, so I started following a few other DC IPs as well as a Marvel IP (Spiderman). For awhile there I was following everything smoothly and didnt feel overwhelmed. Always thought it was a bit odd that even though I was following Superman/Batman...that there were yet other Superman/Batman comic lines out there with different storylines. Pluse these characters were also in the Justice League of America comic among other lines. I was never sure if I needed to follow all of them, or if they were in the same universe, but I ignored it and stuck with the few I enjoyed. This confusion cant be good for most consumers I'd imagine

Stuck with it until Infinite Crisis, and that was when things started getting confusing. The Crisis was affecting all lines, with storylines jumping all over the place, had to read online to make sure I could follow the characters I wanted to follow and buy the right comic books. I started buying JLA and other random books that contained the storyline. It was becoming more of a hassle then I thought it was worth and eventually just stopped making the trip to the store.

A bit later I glanced at the hardcover which had joined together all the essential issues and found it much easier to follow. I guess if at the time I stuck with only the Infinite Crisis line and ignored all the chaos in other lines, I would have kept going. But at the time I felt compelled to do what you think you need to do to follow the story. I know that is their way to get you to buy more comics, but it just turned me off instead.

I came in randomly and picked up a few Spiderman comics later on. But things seemed like they had already changed drastically from what I remembered (Spidey had revealed his identity in Civil War, yet somehow already that was removed from the storyline). Stopped pretty quickly. Now I just watch the occasional DC cartoon to get my comic character fix.

 

[Melchiah]

I remember reading various articles stating that comic book sales were at an all-time high in the early 90's (I think it was '93 to be specific) while today they are practically at an all-time low. I'm curious to as of how this happened? Comic book films have never been so popular with movies like The Dark Knight breaking box-office records in its day to some films based on niche source material such as Kick-Ass reaching moderate success. I'm just curious to as of why comics didn't rise in popularity and instead went through rapidly declined?

I'm not a huge comic book kind of guy so I'm not really sure of the answer

Spoiler

obviously since I'm asking for it

just found it odd that superhero films are all the rage these days yet the source material is anything but.

For me personally, that's one of the reasons I've grown tired with the usual super hero comics. For example, X-men were pretty much ruined after the movies, as they started to mimic the movies in comics.

 

[The Take Out Bandit]

Not to offend, because I think you're definitely one of the better posters on GAF, but I don't understand why you keep bringing up the same argument over and over.

I've already stated twice that just because something use to be highly overpriced back in its hey day doesn't mean that it can't still be overpriced now despite it costing less. Yes manga was horribly distributed and overpriced 15 years ago, just like video games. It doesn't mean that there isn't room for improvement.

I don't really know what you want me to say here.

I do fully agree with you that comics have a huge opportunity in the digital book market. No more high costs of color paper. The first color e-ink models are due next year. Though to be fair they're going to be newspaper quality of color. It will be quite a while before you'll see iPad-like resolution on a color E-reader.

Geez thanks.

Sorry, tunnel vision on my part.

I'm going to stand by my line, I'm honestly not sure what manga publishers can do to appease the fickle manga fans.

I'd say the best option for them is to just go digital and reduce the prices. This way the whiners get their cheaper manga.

IMO manga is still a pretty good value compared to my US comics. Video games last generation were a moderate value, with Sony pushing a $39.99 first part title agenda. Now they cost $59.99 average. While you could argue it's the increased production costs I'll argue that Hollywood actors doing voice overs and overblown cinematics don't make a game fun. :\

Really the only thing that kept me interested in the industry was Michael Turner. The man was a god with a pen:

He will be missed. RIP Mr. Turner.

Not to speak ill of the dead; but it's funny that folks are trashing Rob Liefield; but now we're putting Mike Turner on a pedestal? Really? What's next Greg Land kicking the bucket and being celebrated?:|

 

[kame-sennin]

July comic book sales (direct market only):

http://www.comicsbeat.com/2010/08/19/july-charts-sales-look-wobbly/

And a wonderful tidbit from the comment section:

At the digital comics panel at ComicCon this year, the panel moderator (can’t remember his name, but he’s a marketing director at Boom! Studios) said that they had done a lot of research and placed the direct market readership/audience at 300,000 people.

So 0.1% of the population.