I would disagree, particularly in the case of comics and precedent. It really blunts the impact of a story where a character dies, for instance, if you go back to re-read it in the near future and said character is perfectly fine. It also blunts the emotional impact of future stories because nobody really believes anybody is going to stay dead for a prolonged period of time.FoneBone said:
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Can somebody please explain to me how comic books lost their popularity in 2 decades?
- Thread starter Flying_Phoenix
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Comics are boring. Comics are archaic. You can get much more value out of a book or a motion pictures. Comics sit in a bad spot between the two where not enough is left up to the imagination and the development is lacking. There really isn't much to be done with comics -- it was a medium destined for imminent extinction from inception.
One of the other reasons I haven't seen touched upon here is that many of the comics aren't just aimed at the stereotypical comics nerd, but the content has upped the ante to match that adult sensibility, and I don't think too many parents would want their younger kids reading them. I mean, I looked at a recent Spider-Man collection, and the first handful of pages had him in bed with the Black Cat for a one night stand. Parents probably don't want to explain to their 8 year old what's happening there. Not to mention some of the violence, like in the Siege series where a dude literally gets ripped apart. I know Marvel (and presumably DC, don't follow them) is doing kid-oriented material, but all it takes is a parent buying the wrong book once to not let their kid read another.
I've been reading the complete Avengers run on my iPad, which has all the original Bullpen Bulletin pages Marvel used to do, and it still amazes me that Marvel had become such a big thing on college campuses and with a generally non-traditional reading segment thanks to doing stories a maturity level above what DC was doing, which was truly kiddy dreck. These days however, they mainly cater to a maturity-stunted group of man-children who pay to see the same stuff recycled time after time. Of which I am one, sadly, although I certainly don't shell out for monthly issues anymore.
I've been reading the complete Avengers run on my iPad, which has all the original Bullpen Bulletin pages Marvel used to do, and it still amazes me that Marvel had become such a big thing on college campuses and with a generally non-traditional reading segment thanks to doing stories a maturity level above what DC was doing, which was truly kiddy dreck. These days however, they mainly cater to a maturity-stunted group of man-children who pay to see the same stuff recycled time after time. Of which I am one, sadly, although I certainly don't shell out for monthly issues anymore.
The Take Out Bandit
Member
Srsly said:
You should read McCloud's Understanding Comics.
There's quite a bit of imagination involved in reading comics.
Damning a medium for your own simple minded means. Pity.
We may as well stop making movies since Michael Bay keeps crapping out cinematic turds. Clearly negates everything else in the medium, right?
The fact that America is so far behind the rest of the world (Japan/Europe) when it comes to acceptance of comics as an entertainment medium just speaks to Americas own ignorance. Although it doesn't help that two major corporations rule the roost and only one of them lets creators tell original stories, while the other just has a version of the Punisher saying "f*ck" a lot.
akachan ningen said:
just too perfect :lol
I really don't mean anything by it
the problem they need to fix is that the story is spread over so many goddamned books. I want to read Final Crisis and Blackest Night, but I went to a Borders and there was Blackest Night, BN: Green Lantern, BN: Green Lantern Corps, BN: Black Lanturn Vol. 1 and 2 where do I start and in what order? on Amazon, they will all run me about over $100 so that's scary.
for mangas, the problem is pricing and not collected stuff. some mangas are collected like Eureka Seven (in 2 volumes), but the prices are high. $11 for one book (of a normal issue)? fuck that shit, I'm going to Amazon (where they have half the fucking price). not to mention one of my favorite series (take a guess) doesn't even get released in the west. AND the gap between issues in Japan and the West is fucking stupid. they wonder why people went to places like OneManga to read Bleach, One Piece, and Naruto. if the Japanese publishers allowed simultainious releases, we would have less scanlations.
Kind of. When you know all the big stuff is going to be undone later, it does lessen the impact. I love me some Ms. Marvel, and when she died, I was just thinking "Oh, great, now she's going to be gone for six months. That sucks." In any other medium I would have been upset that I wasn't going to get to see my favourite character any more.FoneBone said:
The Take Out Bandit
Member
ILikeFeet said:
It's no mystery. You are part of the problem.
No matter WHAT they do, you will never be happy and rationalize your theft however you can. Because you feel entitled to these comics.
As I stated in another thread, manga prices in the US are still lower in 2010 than they were in 1995; yet whiners still find a way to bitch about prices.
Here's an idea.
Get a job that isn't at Gamestop.
The only comic book I follow is the Punisher MAX; simply because I can't stand the fruityness of regular mainline comics. heck, I cant stand the regular mainline Punisher books. I follow those comic threads and there always some bigass event, or death of a fan favorite chracter being hyped, and then it ALWAYS turnout to be some random C-lister getting killed. That civil wars stuff was so over the top, spawned a fuckload of various spinofs and so on, and it was just out of control.
The Punisher MAX is the only one I care about because the storylines are 'more' grounded in reality. Important characters do die.
.
Nothing ever happens in regular comics, and nobody never really die. Nobody is in real danger. And the storylines are way too convulted.
The Punisher MAX is the only one I care about because the storylines are 'more' grounded in reality. Important characters do die.
Heck, The Punisher puts down Micro, his only friend that has helped him since the '80 comics, because he is mortally wounded and also because he turned against him for money. This kind of stuff is pretty powerful; i mean the main character putting down his only friend in like 25 years of comic series
Nothing ever happens in regular comics, and nobody never really die. Nobody is in real danger. And the storylines are way too convulted.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
Deku said:
I just did. Surprised me too.
Meus Renaissance
Member
Since the good cartoons were killed off
BattleMonkey
Member
BenjaminBirdie said:
Seeing how probably no one here was around for the "golden age", I doubt anyone cares.
crimzonflame
Member
Did anyone mention clones yet?
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
BattleMonkey said:
There's probably plenty of people who weren't around for the 90's boom either, or were like 4. Personally, I don't really care much for those comics either, not enough Frank Quitely for my taste, but if we're talking about comics' declining popularity, the 50's are a much more interesting touchstone, considering how well they sold back then.
It has nothing to do with whether or not people care about the actual comics, dude.
:lol
captmcblack
Member
I'm sort of a lapsed comic geek - thanks to the Internet, I'm able to still have a good knowledge of what's going on in comics and what all of my favorite characters/teams/universes are up to, but it's not truly cohesive.
I think a lot of the issue with being into comics has to do with there being like 50 different continuities and stories going on at once with no real way to pin them down and be like "this is the main thing, this is the pertinent story". There's a main continuity, and then there are alternate ones/side stories, and then there is the continuity in different media (like whatever the current cartoon/TV show is, and/or the current movie) - it makes me feel like if I'm not a top-tier comic book guy like Spike Spiegel or something, I can't truly participate in the comic fandom and I'm just as knowledgeable as some guy who just has the latest movie on DVD.
Also, how do you even get a comic nowadays? When I was a kid, you were able to get these things at your local coffee/magazine/deli spot, or in the local drugstore (whether it was a mom-and-pop thing, or a Rite Aid/Walgreens/CVS type thing) in addition to the comic book shop. You used to be able to subscribe right out of the back of comic books too. Now, you are fucked if you don't have a comic book shop nearby, since those stores and delis don't sell comics anymore. At least living in NYC, I can hop on a train and find one...but if I was a kid today, I wouldn't even know how to get my hands on these things since I can't reach that comic book store that's far from my house, and I don't know if you can even subscribe anymore outside of (possibly) the Internet.
...then again, I bet none of those things are really the problem. Comics could be too pricy now, too - each one's like $3 to 5, and for a kid that's a lot of scratch. Who knows, really.
I think a lot of the issue with being into comics has to do with there being like 50 different continuities and stories going on at once with no real way to pin them down and be like "this is the main thing, this is the pertinent story". There's a main continuity, and then there are alternate ones/side stories, and then there is the continuity in different media (like whatever the current cartoon/TV show is, and/or the current movie) - it makes me feel like if I'm not a top-tier comic book guy like Spike Spiegel or something, I can't truly participate in the comic fandom and I'm just as knowledgeable as some guy who just has the latest movie on DVD.
Also, how do you even get a comic nowadays? When I was a kid, you were able to get these things at your local coffee/magazine/deli spot, or in the local drugstore (whether it was a mom-and-pop thing, or a Rite Aid/Walgreens/CVS type thing) in addition to the comic book shop. You used to be able to subscribe right out of the back of comic books too. Now, you are fucked if you don't have a comic book shop nearby, since those stores and delis don't sell comics anymore. At least living in NYC, I can hop on a train and find one...but if I was a kid today, I wouldn't even know how to get my hands on these things since I can't reach that comic book store that's far from my house, and I don't know if you can even subscribe anymore outside of (possibly) the Internet.
...then again, I bet none of those things are really the problem. Comics could be too pricy now, too - each one's like $3 to 5, and for a kid that's a lot of scratch. Who knows, really.
The Take Out Bandit
Member
captmcblack said:
Excellent point.
The non-returnable direct market model has really negatively impacted comic sales.
Although to be fair there were plenty of stories of old dime stores ripping the covers off the returnable books; and then just selling the coverless books for a discount.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Srsly said:
Yeah how about no.
Sequential art storytelling is its ow thing and always has been. It creates unique experiences that are distinctly unlike reading and absorbing a story in words, or watching a purely visual and "naturalistic" representation unfold via a film or video (or live theater performance, for that matter).
Hell, motion picture directors /have learned from comics/ and no, I am not talking about putting comic book sound effects on the screen when a dude is punched. Sequential art plays with perception of time in the human mind - time and structure. Stories can be told in sequential art that are similar and yet also fundamentally unlike any other medium. (Just as those mediums may have similarities yet be fundamentally unlike comics.)
The perception that comics are archaic and limited comes from decades of confusing the content with the container. The comic container - the format - has been used in boring and uncreative ways for the most part, because it is a cheap alternative to making television or films. These uses typically use comics as second-rate outlets for similar content and for similar purposes. And hell, even within genres such as "Super Hero" there have been periods of fascinating experimentation and individual creators who have done fascinating things.
The "durr, comics are just boring" argument usually, in my experience, comes from geeks and kids who got tired of reading the same recycled Marvel comics stories to the exclusion of all else - unaware anything else even existed - or from lit-snobs who use said genres as cheap and easy strawmen to burn.
Comics are entirely their own unique medium and the real problem is that hasn't been explored /enough/.
DeaconKnowledge
Member
Meus Renaissance said:Since the good cartoons were killed off
I would argue the cartoons helped kill the comics off.
Why would kids bother reading the comics when they can just watch the series? I read X-Men as a child, then my cousin came around and had the series waiting for him to absorb. He's never had the urge to pick up a comic book in his life, and why should he? He knows everything he wants to.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
animlboogy said:
You're spot on, but I don't think it's marketing. The Marvel/DC market is dictated mostly by creators. Popular creators make popular books. If Bendis stopped writing Avengers books tomorrow, they'd probably go right back down the shitter, sales-wise.
MisterHero
Super Member
the big companies are content with keeping the comics as platforms for multimedia endeavors.
iirc the Kick-Ass movie was announced before the comics were released :lol
iirc the Kick-Ass movie was announced before the comics were released :lol
Meus Renaissance
Member
Roto13 said:
Not so much as the writing or story telling, that was poor, but the art style was awesome.
BattleMonkey
Member
BenjaminBirdie said:
Seems like alot of people here clearly remember the 90's, how many even actually read anything from the Goldenage? Average gaffer demographic seems to be folks in their teens to 20's anyways so it's only to be expected that is what most are going to talk about or care for. What do you think has more following around here, the golden era of comics or the 90's which is what most people seem to be talking about? The golden era was vastly different beast of the target audience and how comic books were sold.
Deku said:
Pretty much selling direct to it's market, comic book stores. Back in the day up to the 90's comics were sold outside of comic book stores, you find them at your local grocery store or any pharmacy for example. Direct Market sales pretty much focus on selling to hobby stores with a much more narrow focus.
too expensive to keep up with all that stuff, it just got insane... gave up a long time ago.
I did manga for some time because I thought it was a better value.
Gave up on that too because the stories just NEVER end...
the only thing I read now are graphic novels here and there...
edit: If you want a nice Comic store in Houston...Bedrock Comics is a good place to go.
Organized..people are helpful..etc.
I did manga for some time because I thought it was a better value.
Gave up on that too because the stories just NEVER end...
the only thing I read now are graphic novels here and there...
edit: If you want a nice Comic store in Houston...Bedrock Comics is a good place to go.
Organized..people are helpful..etc.
captmcblack
Member
Seriously, I can't understand how comics even still exist without having any real presence in the brick and mortar marketplace. Thank goodness the character history and franchises for many of our favorites is so rich that they can exist as movies/TV shows and cartoons and video games and such, because otherwise you'd have no reason to even know they were there.
My girlfriend's kid brother - a 12-year old, who digs Spidey and whathaveyou just like I did 15 years ago when I was his age - doesn't get to read these things unless they come in TPBs you can find in Barnes and Nobles or Borders since there isn't any comic book place for him to go to, or any comic books in supermarkets/drug stores/whatever. In order to let him read comics that aren't in that TPB format, if I couldn't give him whatever old copies I had from my old collection, I'd have to let him read .cbr/.cbz scans or bring him to Marvel.com or something.
Simply put, you can't consume comics if they aren't there to be consumed...and currently, they aren't really there. Bring back $2/$2.50 comics, and put them where they can be purchased. People still love the characters and the stories - that's why the games and films and whathaveyou are so popular. You just have to make them accessible to people, and not just websavvy people or the people who are lucky enough to live in a metropolis like me and still have more than 1 comic book shop.
My girlfriend's kid brother - a 12-year old, who digs Spidey and whathaveyou just like I did 15 years ago when I was his age - doesn't get to read these things unless they come in TPBs you can find in Barnes and Nobles or Borders since there isn't any comic book place for him to go to, or any comic books in supermarkets/drug stores/whatever. In order to let him read comics that aren't in that TPB format, if I couldn't give him whatever old copies I had from my old collection, I'd have to let him read .cbr/.cbz scans or bring him to Marvel.com or something.
Simply put, you can't consume comics if they aren't there to be consumed...and currently, they aren't really there. Bring back $2/$2.50 comics, and put them where they can be purchased. People still love the characters and the stories - that's why the games and films and whathaveyou are so popular. You just have to make them accessible to people, and not just websavvy people or the people who are lucky enough to live in a metropolis like me and still have more than 1 comic book shop.
Seraphis Cain
bad gameplay lol
The biggest indicator of how shitty the 90's crash was is the fact that Spawn #1 is still only worth like $6. :lol
captmcblack
Member
They can't make money for $1, unless them shits are jampacked with ads.
...then again, comics used to have tons of ads in them anyway, so why the hell not? If they were $1, they'd definitely get bought like gangbusters. You could have main series comics get big runs that would be available in Walmarts/Targets/drugstores/supermarkets as well as comic book stores, and the spinoff/alternate/more obscure stuff can still be in the comic book store. They just need to be available and affordable again.
...then again, comics used to have tons of ads in them anyway, so why the hell not? If they were $1, they'd definitely get bought like gangbusters. You could have main series comics get big runs that would be available in Walmarts/Targets/drugstores/supermarkets as well as comic book stores, and the spinoff/alternate/more obscure stuff can still be in the comic book store. They just need to be available and affordable again.
BattleMonkey
Member
Put the comics back on the shitty cheap paper, whatever you need to bring costs down. Tiny pamphletts that are comics are not worth the $4 per issue asking price. Costs would also come down if they expanded sales to larger circulation instead of making it a direct market specialty product.
Definitely. Perfect thing to sell for kids, "SPIDERMAN!" for a cheap product to keep the little ones happy. Now the direct market model basically means only the older fans will seek out a comic store to get their books. If anything they are killing their franchises for future generations. The characters will only be known for the cartoons and movies.
Remember gettng comics all the time as a little kid on visits to local grocery store with mom, or a pharmacy. They were cheap and got me into comics as I got older. Your distribution is also going to be much larger. Getting comics was so much easier back in the day.
gdt5016 said:
Definitely. Perfect thing to sell for kids, "SPIDERMAN!" for a cheap product to keep the little ones happy. Now the direct market model basically means only the older fans will seek out a comic store to get their books. If anything they are killing their franchises for future generations. The characters will only be known for the cartoons and movies.
Remember gettng comics all the time as a little kid on visits to local grocery store with mom, or a pharmacy. They were cheap and got me into comics as I got older. Your distribution is also going to be much larger. Getting comics was so much easier back in the day.
Seraphis Cain
bad gameplay lol
Comics really need to be no more than $2 an issue if I'm going to start buying them again. I mean, look at something like Shounen Jump. That's what, $5 an issue (the US version), and it's absolutely huge. I know it's black and white and printed on cheap paper, but if they can sell something like that so cheap, they can definitely sell a 30 page, full color comic for $2.
There are a couple roadblocks for modern comics.
I agree that digital distribution is gonna be the future of the medium. In the meantime, the big publishing houses have to get their titles out of comic shops specifically and back into grocery stores, book stores, pharmacies, and other places. They also need to change up their handling of characters, specifically with super hero comics. Characters need to die or evolve, permanently. Things need to stick longer than a handful of years, make the readership care about the story again. A good example would be something like Batman Beyond. Imagine if DC had moved their way into the future like that so that old staple characters could pass the torch on to new characters. It would be a breath of fresh air but I don't see it happening.
I agree that digital distribution is gonna be the future of the medium. In the meantime, the big publishing houses have to get their titles out of comic shops specifically and back into grocery stores, book stores, pharmacies, and other places. They also need to change up their handling of characters, specifically with super hero comics. Characters need to die or evolve, permanently. Things need to stick longer than a handful of years, make the readership care about the story again. A good example would be something like Batman Beyond. Imagine if DC had moved their way into the future like that so that old staple characters could pass the torch on to new characters. It would be a breath of fresh air but I don't see it happening.
secondspace
Member
Speculation was part of the crash, but the success of things like Watchmen and The Sandman had raised the profile of comics and comic shops saw the benefit. Instead of trying to work with better writers though, Marvel and DC used the direct market to squeeze money out of super hero fans with multiple X-Men books and multiple covers on hot books for fans to collect.
Image comics came along supposedly to allow creators to own their work, but again quickly became a way for these same creators to squeeze cash from their fans. It was also part of the trend of letting hot artists write the comics, which was generally not a great idea.
Image comics came along supposedly to allow creators to own their work, but again quickly became a way for these same creators to squeeze cash from their fans. It was also part of the trend of letting hot artists write the comics, which was generally not a great idea.
afternoon delight
Member
I don't know anybody in real life who has the time, patience, or nerditude to buy ten different comics to make sense of the new time continuum of threats that won't effect the story at all in six months.
TPBs are great because they're stand alone and usually worth the time spent. But this is coming from someone who only owns The Sandman volumes and Sin City collection.
TPBs are great because they're stand alone and usually worth the time spent. But this is coming from someone who only owns The Sandman volumes and Sin City collection.
The Take Out Bandit said:
I guess I am part of the problem (TPB are just so much better of a deal anyway). still picking up mangas on Amazon even when I do get a job. didn't get into mangas until after the 2000s (in 1995, I was 3 years old). and I will complain anyway since mangas were $7 where I live not 3 years ago. every book store bumped up the prices
MidnightRider
Banned
I've never been a fan...... but yes i've seen less and less of them over the years
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