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[Cosmonaut X]

i.. still don't understand. what does this have to with videogames? or sexism in games? how does Anita Sarkeesian and her youtube series tie into this?

this whole thing is incredibly confusing to me and i'm legit baffled why a prime minister would talk about it.

Because buried in amongst that rambling attack on his ex, Zoe Quinn (the creator of a game about depression), were nuggets about her - according to him, I don't recall if she ever confirmed it - cheating on him with people, at least one of whom was a games writer who made passing mention of her game in his writing.

It was a perfect ignition point for a certain segment, as it - to them - exposed an "SJW" (Social Justice Warrior; in short, a derogatory term for someone who would be active in real life, but also on social media, talking about and campaigning for progressive causes) as a liar and a hypocrite, exposed games journalism as being in cahoots with developers, and wrapped it all up in a big splash of sexual angst.

It tied together ideas that had been floating around in that group for a long time (but had been becoming more pronounced since Anita Sarkeesian's success at funding her project on videogames) about feminist criticism, games that weren't "proper" games, games journalism being unethical and working hand-in-glove with developers to cheat gamers, and - to my eye, anyway - issues with sex, gender and relationships, wrapping it all up in this perfect little narrative:

"Zoe Quinn, SJW non-game developer, cheats on her boyfriend with game writers/industry peeps in exchange for favourable coverage of her non-game."

...and from there, it just fucking snowballed.

 

[PillarEN]

i.. still don't understand. what does this have to with videogames? or sexism in games? how does Anita Sarkeesian and her youtube series tie into this?

this whole thing is incredibly confusing to me and i'm legit baffled why a prime minister would talk about it.

Anita was already doing her videogame video series. She just falls into this whole thing because she was a vocal female. It's not so much whether her videos are good or bad, accurate or not. It's just that that she talks about the issues of sexism, representation. She is a feminist which some folks interpret as "oh my god anything sexy is going to be taken away from me. Fucking bitch" when that is never going to actually happen.

The woman who was the initial target was Zoe Quinn (videogame developer). Her boyfriend got really mad at their relationship for various reasons. I don't remember if he claimed she slept with a journalist (I don't believe so. He just unveiled his and her facebook chat messages) but somehow that rumor got started and some small amount of people ran with this immediately. This is where the "ethics in journalism" comes in. There was accusations of journalists giving preferential treatment for sex. This was debunked.

I guess Zoe and Anita were the two people who were visible enough to focus on at first so they got the brunt of the attacks and in some cases very nasty stuff (Quinn had old pornographic images thrown up on the net, Anita had a bomb threat made on her at a place where she was going to give a speech). Other people have also received harassment but the two top figureheads are these women. In the end though it's mainly a select group of men who are losing their minds because of some discussions on potential issues in the industry.

Nothing is ever perfect. It's not about taking away games you like. It's about allowing more games to exist. In other words Gamer Gate is about irrational fear turned into harassment on a large scale.

None of these people who are being attacked by the mob are taking away your porn, nude calendars and violent fantasies. They're here to stay. Just consider that there can be more options. That doesn't sound too bad right? But alas things didn't turn out that way.

 

[Sylas]

There is no meddling in games from government (outside of tax stuff, age ratings, etc). There are no plans for that also.

No government is going to enter a development studio and say "replace that character with this" or "remove this scene". They don't do that for movies, music, newspapers, tv, etc, etc. So why the sudden fear that this is going to happen with video games.

How anybody can believe otherwise is beyond me.

A lot of people jump to the immediate conclusion that the government is going to control every aspect of the thing they like the moment a government official (especially a high-ranking one) has a public opinion on the matter.

It doesn't matter if there's absolutely no precedent for it or if there's absolutely no rational reason to think it's going to happen--government and censorship are immediately conflated. If the PM or President have an opinion on it, clearly they want to take it away.

 

[TurnipFritters]

Can someone explain Gamergate in a few words for me?

From what I understood, it's all about hating (some or most?) women, be it gamers or developpers, in the video game industry?

Mostly it's people getting real mad at other people for saying "Hey maybe female characters in video games could be written better."

Then there's a lot of people who are like "politics don't belong in video games!!!" whenever someone mentions feminism, or racism, or homophobia in games, but the same people will sure play the hell out of Bioshock and Metal Gear Solid.

 

[Par Score]

i.. still don't understand. what does this have to with videogames? or sexism in games? how does Anita Sarkeesian and her youtube series tie into this?

this whole thing is incredibly confusing to me and i'm legit baffled why a prime minister would talk about it.

The ex-girlfriend in question is a game developer, and the attacks came along in an environment where women were getting bigger roles in the games industry and feminist criticism of gaming was getting bigger play.

The secret of #Gamergate is that the biggest names associated with it either don't care about games or actively dislike them. It's just a convenient way for anti-progressives (racists, sexists, homophobes, etc) to rally a bunch of younger people to their cause, the sort of demographic who they would normally struggle to reach out to.

It's seriously not worth knowing or learning about. Consider your ignorance about the subject a gift and not a curse.

The fact that the Prime Minister of Canada would even reference it is baffling beyond words.

Its origins may be ridiculous, and it's members may be scorn-worthy, but that doesn't mean it's not important.

 

[Dictator93]

This is pretty cool to see it so directly referenced.

 

[TurnipFritters]

The secret of #Gamergate is that the biggest names associated with it either don't care about games or actively dislike them. It's just a convenient way for anti-progressives (racists, sexists, homophobes, etc) to rally a bunch of younger people to their cause, the sort of demographic who they would normally struggle to reach out to.

Never forget that one point, Gamergate was rallied behind Jack Thompson because he was critical of Anita Sarkeesian.

Or people like the Angry Juice Salesman Lawyer and the Breitbart Writer, even though both had a history of making fun of video gamers.

 

[Lime]

Mostly it's people getting real mad at other people for saying "Hey maybe female characters in video games could be written better."

Then there's a lot of people who are like "politics don't belong in video games!!!" whenever someone mentions feminism, or racism, or homophobia in games, but the same people will sure play the hell out of Bioshock and Metal Gear Solid.

"What? This game where a white dude shoots Black people is political and perhaps problematic? That cannot be! I better start sending death threats to this guy/woman..."

Among others, I blame the discourse among journalists and reviewers for not introducing political observations about video games before.

 

[PillarEN]

Never forget that one point, Gamergate was rallied behind Jack Thompson because he was critical of Anita Sarkeesian.

Or people like the Angry Juice Salesman Lawyer and the Breitbart Writer, even though both had a history of making fun of video gamers.

This guy was disbarred in Florida, no? This is so funny because the same people who are probably part of GG would have hated him back during his Rockstar crusades.
"This mofo is trying to prevent me from beating up virtual hookers with a bat after sex and running over their dead bodies 100 times with 5 separate vehicles. What a degenerate asshole". And now they champion him haha.

P.S. I defend your rights to mistreat people in GTA any day of the week but the irony is too much here.

 

[Forkball]

Its origins may be ridiculous, and it's members may be scorn-worthy, but that doesn't mean it's not important.

I didn't mean to imply that condemning online harassment isn't important, just that a bunch of paranoid internet crusaders causing such a ruckus that the leader of a country had to publicly call them out is bizarre. Some jilted ex-boyfriend no one had ever heard of spread lies on the internet about a video game developer no one had ever heard of and the most powerful person in Canada had to step in and deal with the repercussions of that event.

 

[Shai-Tan]

It wouldn't help anything either way, especially in a hobby that has a broad appeal. Many misunderstandings are simply because people aren't equipped to have a critical discussion, And anyone reading about politics knows that there is a tribal bias that leads to the demonization of the other (which journalists are just as guilty of). More discussion doesn't necessarily result in greater understanding, especially when it's mostly evidence free speculation on social effects.

 

[User 73706]

It's Too Human, not Too Huwoman

 

[Sblargh]

Cyber bulling is a serious thing. Cybrer bulling organized by a hate a group is a super serious thing.

If a liberal politician doesn't say stuff like "we need to stand against this hate group who uses online tactics to create a campaign of fear and disinformation against minorities", who will?

Bishoptl can only do so much.

 

[Mahonay]

Pretty cool to hear the Canadian Prime Mimister say this.

 

[MrCunningham]

You're pandering to the younger generation is worse than Obama's, Trudeau.

 

[partyphone]

You're pandering to the younger generations are worse than Obama's, Trudeau.

how is this pandering to anyone let alone younger generations?

 

[Bladelaw]

Well played Trudeau!

Given that Canada has a pretty big game dev presence (Montreal, Vancouver, Toronto) It's nice to hear a politician even acknowledge the industry, to do so while also championing a good cause is fantastic.

 

[TurnipFritters]

Gamer Gate is also about thinking that, for some reason, the power players of the multi-billion dollar video game industry are indie developers making $10 games. The most powerful voice? A youtuber who offers mild feminist criticism prefaced with a "You can be a fan of game and still be critical of certain aspects of it" amidst a sea of youtubers whose entire gimmick is having loud, angry opinions about video games.

Gamer Gate is about thinking that video games are art, and you can't criticize art!

 

[cakely]

Can someone explain Gamergate in a few words for me?

Uh-oh.

From what I understood, it's all about hating (some or most?) women, be it gamers or developpers, in the video game industry?

Phew. Wow, what a difference a year makes.

The OT absolutely made my day here, and it's only 9am.

 

[Akuun]

Pretty surprised he even knows about gamergate. I wonder if he actually follows it or if someone just tipped him off.

 

[bryehn]

Dyack is a GGer?

is he even a developer at this point?

Spoiler

against

 

[marmoka]

I hope this is the first step for the Canadian politicians to start fighting against these types of harassment and hatreds, and other governments follow them. There have been lots of victims because of this case.

Great for Trudeau!! I'm happy to see most people from NegGaf will support him.

 

[Doran902]

Pretty surprised he even knows about gamergate. I wonder if he actually follows it or if someone just tipped him off.

He is much younger than most political leaders so chances are he is more aware of current pop culture, dude likely had an NES haha. Canada also invest heavily in media tax breaks (game studios movies etc) and media businesses in certain provinces so the government is likely aware of issues in them.

 

[Lexxism]

Pretty surprised he even knows about gamergate. I wonder if he actually follows it or if someone just tipped him off.

the guy is a pretty big geek from what I've read. That and he's young so it's not surprising if he's seen it around social media

Anyway he hasn't done any wrong yet, only good. Dennis though lol.

.

 

[Stet]

how is this pandering to anyone let alone younger generations?

When you address issues, you're pandering. Leaders should just shake hands and sit in big chairs and sign things.

 

[MrCunningham]

how is this pandering to anyone let alone younger generations?

I was referring to gamer gate comment. It was a bullshit movement right from the start and jumping on what is left of this band wagon seems a bit like he's stretching to me. It just feels like something he would say that would hold no actual meaning to it.

 

[a.wd]

Guess who have something to say on this.

It would be the most epic smackdown if he just replies "against".

 

[M0nochromatic]

He's a keeper Canada. Don't let him go.

 

[stuminus3]

That whole "sticks and stones may break.... " ya that's true. It's not that easy, but that's how the real-world works.

No it isn't. What a disgusting attitude. Words drive people to kill themselves.

 

[Stet]

No it isn't. What a disgusting attitude. Words drive people to kill themselves.

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but a SWAT team breaking down my door will do fine in a pinch.

 

[Sylas]

This is good stuff. I mean, my son is my first-kid. You know.. who says I'm getting it all right?


Now let me answer you honestly.

People caling him slurs? That whole "sticks and stones may break.... " ya that's true. It's not that easy, but that's how the real-world works.

Now to the more serious stuff, if it went to a level you stated, then I would get involved (personally), since I am a computer nerd. I would find these teens. This is because I love my boy. I would still tell him to keep on truck'n everyday at middle school, and whatever, and not to let this phase him, but oh most definitely would I find where these kids are. Most definitely would I talk to the parents and-or police if needed.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I wouldn't tell my son, oh just ignore your death threats. I would tell him, son, you still need to get a shower today, go to school and do your best.. the world isn't kind. In the meantime, I'll do my best to figure out where this stuff is coming from.

I don't see what this exactly has to with Gamergate.

Sticks and Stones May Break My Bones but Words Get People Hanged.

Seriously, though. Words have often been the primary catalyst of things being changed, especially in a world that's increasingly text-based. A lot of people's primary form of communication is solely through the written word.

Yes, you need to be able to function despite awful things happening to you--nobody is going to argue otherwise. But what would you do if your son was the one slinging those death threats? Is that appropriate?

If it's not appropriate for your son to do, why is it appropriate for other people to do it?

A lot of people's reaction to online harassment reminds of people's reactions to someone being stalked. If you've never had it happen to you, you aren't really qualified to tell someone, "Just ignore it! It'll go away." It is never that simple.

 

[aeolist]

i find it pretty suspicious how many people want this issue to be buried and never talked about because of bigger problems existing

like, how does it hurt anyone that he said this? he didn't say he's devoting the entire attention of the canadian government to battling online harassment, he didn't say he's going to legislate every aspect of game development, and he didn't say he's going to monitor canadian neogaf posts and punch people in the face if they disagree with him. yet the fact that he simply said "yeah, this shit is a problem" is so horrifying that some folks just explode.

 

[TurnipFritters]

I mean, as a reminder, it's not just people tweeting "kill urself, lol" at them, it's people showing up outside their work and taking a selfie and tweeting about it, it's people calling and harassing their parents and their places of work, it's trying to get them charged with treason for speaking to a UN committee, it's tweeting images of dead dogs at them after they talked about losing a pet, it's having people obsess and scrutinize over your every action, it's someone threatening to pull a mass shooting when you have a speaking engagement.

 

[partyphone]

aeolist it's clear pandering! he did a pander to someone who isn't me specifically!

 

[aeolist]

I mean, as a reminder, it's not just people tweeting "kill urself, lol" at them, it's people showing up outside their work and taking a selfie and tweeting about it, it's people calling and harassing their parents and their places of work, it's trying to get them charged with treason for speaking to a UN committee, it's tweeting images of dead dogs at them after they talked about losing a pet, it's having people obsess and scrutinize over your every action, it's someone threatening to pull a mass shooting when you have a speaking engagement.

it is also people tweeting "kill urself lol", only we're talking about a scale that boggles the imagination. every single tweet from the @femfreq account, for example, has had dozens of replies along those lines for years. even if no one were trying to dox or physically threaten sarkeesian, the sheer volume of hateful shit that gets thrown her way has got to be exhausting.

imagine if every single thing you said and did in public resulted in 20 assholes screaming at you. that's the life some people have to lead because of gamergate.

 

[Shai-Tan]

it is also people tweeting "kill urself lol", only we're talking about a scale that boggles the imagination. every single tweet from the @femfreq account, for example, has had dozens of replies along those lines for years. even if no one were trying to dox or physically threaten sarkeesian, the sheer volume of hateful shit that gets thrown her way has got to be exhausting.

imagine if every single thing you said and did in public resulted in 20 assholes screaming at you. that's the life some people have to lead because of gamergate.

I reckon part of the problem is the technology. Twitter is just badly designed for its scale. The other issue is it's difficult to have some minimal standards without enabling governments who want to suppress speech but they could do a much better job preventing basic harassment without venturing into that territory too much.

 

[Shake Appeal]

Because it's not just GG - the way people are hunted for daring to have an opinion represents the most harmful extension of outrage culture, whereby nearly everything can be deemed 'harassment'. Innocuous criticism is "harassment". Asking for transparency is "harassment". Daring to dispute the hiveminded doctrine of political correctness and radical feminism is "harassment". Doxxing is "harassment". Swatting is "harassment". Stalking is "harassment". Encouraging suicide is "harassment". Bomb, death and rape threats are "harassment".

I mean, if you start to take legal action against those forms of behaviour, where does it end? Regulating the game industry is a very small step to take if governments are already condemning individuals' private correspondence and erasing any lingering rights to freedom of speech that haven't already been burnt on a pyre of political correctness.

What in the world. "Political correctness" has not impinged on freedom of speech at all; if anything, freedom of speech has excused many examples of what would, in many countries, be prosecuted as hate speech. Where is this silly pyre of yours? Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism or condemnation, and your slippery slope argument is nonsensical.

 

[Guileless]

i find it pretty suspicious how many people want this issue to be buried and never talked about because of bigger problems existing

like, how does it hurt anyone that he said this?

Some people argue that some affluent Western feminists misspend time and attention criticizing "problematic" aspects of Western popular culture that could be more usefully focused on more immediate problems like forced marriages, honor killings, genital mutilation, etc.

 

[Divvy]

edit: wrong thread

 

[Aeana]

Because it's not just GG - the way people are hunted for daring to have an opinion represents the most harmful extension of outrage culture, whereby nearly everything can be deemed 'harassment'. Innocuous criticism is "harassment". Asking for transparency is "harassment". Daring to dispute the hiveminded doctrine of political correctness and radical feminism is "harassment". Doxxing is "harassment". Swatting is "harassment". Stalking is "harassment". Encouraging suicide is "harassment". Bomb, death and rape threats are "harassment".

I mean, if you start to take legal action against those forms of behaviour, where does it end? Regulating the game industry is a very small step to take if governments are already condemning individuals' private correspondence and erasing any lingering rights to freedom of speech that haven't already been burnt on a pyre of political correctness.

We almost fell for this. It's too real, Golnei.

 

[aeolist]

Some people argue that some affluent Western feminists misspend time and attention criticizing "problematic" aspects of Western popular culture that could be more usefully focused on more immediate problems like forced marriages, honor killings, genital mutilation, etc.

weasel words

do you argue that? if so, why do you think we shouldn't pay any attention to local problems? should we only ever care about the worst possible thing until it's solved, then move on to the next worst?

 

[TurnipFritters]

Some people argue that some affluent Western feminists misspend time and attention criticizing "problematic" aspects of Western popular culture that could be more usefully focused on more immediate problems like forced marriages, honor killings, genital mutilation, etc.

Generally people who argue that don't actually care about forced marriages, or honor killings, or genital mutilation, because they only bring those things up in the context of criticizing "affluent Western feminists" who say mean things* about their video games.

 

[Imbarkus]

 

[GloriousBagel]

Yo Canada can we have your pm? We'll give you Obama

 

[Deleted member 126221]

It should be noted that the OP quote and thread title are incorrect. He doesn't say anything about "video games misogyny". This is what he actually said

"The things that we see online, whether it's issues like gamergate in videogames and misogony in popular culture is something we need people to stand clearly against."

We sorta discussed it earlier as that particular "video games misogyny" quote struck some as being weird, and as it turned out he didn't say it.

Woops. Could a mod edit the title please? I should also add a disclaimer to the OP that no political action is intended, it's just a quote from a campaign interview (thought that was clear, but it looks like it isn't...)

 

[Lime]

It should be noted that the OP quote and thread title are incorrect. He doesn't say anything about "video games misogyny". This is what he actually said

"The things that we see online, whether it's issues like gamergate in videogames and misogony in popular culture is something we need people to stand clearly against."

We sorta discussed it earlier as that particular "video games misogyny" quote struck some as being weird, and as it turned out he didn't say it.

"Gamergate" and "misogyny in video games" are interchangeable though.

 

[Sylas]

"Gamergate" and "misogyny in video games" are interchangeable though.

Not necessarily. While gamergate does not exist without misogyny in video games, misogyny in video games exists outside of gamergate.

 

[Deleted member 126221]

Edited the OP with the exact quote and an explanation that this quote does not mean any political action will be taken.

It could be nice if the title could be edited too.

 

[Walpurgis]

Yo Canada can we have your pm? We'll give you Obama

Vote for Bernie Sanders and you'll have someone even better.

 

[GamerJM]

I need to move to Canada.