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Case against Sony for OtherOS removal dismissed

Ok, Ok, but still. How many of these people actually used the other OS feature for non-illegal activity's ? Seems like very little to me. Most OtherOS people I've seen/met are using it for cheating, hacking, or downloading and playing illegal copies of Games.

Seems like pretty scummy activity to me. Why anybody would side with those people is beyond me. Pirates always like to say, "If you like it, buy it !" But how many people actually do ?
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
Slavik81 said:
It's nonsense. They have an obligation to continue to allow you to play the games that you could play at the time when you bought the system. That's as far as the legal obligation extends.

Exactly this.

Every iteration of system software is a new thing provided at the vendor's discretion and if it changes the function of the system in some way you don't like, you don't have to use it.

No application software ever requires a system software revision that hasn't been yet rolled out, because obviously noone would be able to use it until that occurs. So there's never a case where people are being locked out of what they've already purchased.

On the other hand, all the stuff that is supplied as an ongoing service is a separate entity that exists outside of the box you bought, and is subject to its own terms and conditions.

PSN is website, basically, so just like Gaf or anywhere else with a membership system if you don't comply with the rules set by the provider they are perfectly entitled to lock you out.

Remember: You don't need an up-to-date version of the system software to patch-up games you bought already, or to download newer versions of the O/S. The only thing Sony were denying non-updaters was PSN access, and that's entirely legal and fair.
 

railGUN

Banned
Ok, Ok, but still. How many of these people actually used the other OS feature for non-illegal activity's ? Seems like very little to me. Most OtherOS people I've seen/met are using it for cheating, hacking, or downloading and playing illegal copies of Games.

Seems like pretty scummy activity to me. Why anybody would side with those people is beyond me. Pirates always like to say, "If you like it, buy it !" But how many people actually do ?

You are completely mistaken. OtherOS had nothing to do with the eventual jailbreaking of the PS3. Nor does it have anything to do with cheating, hacking or piracy.
 
You are completely mistaken. OtherOS had nothing to do with the eventual jailbreaking of the PS3. Nor does it have anything to do with cheating, hacking or piracy.

I'd like to see how they found the epic encryption fail... are you sure that they didn't use a fat with linux to dig into it?
 
I don't think fail0verflow disclosed exactly how they did it, but I believe the theory is that they used that USB jailbreak in order to find the keys.

Actually, that's not right either. They had a jailbroken ps3 to rip two different firmwares. Because a certain variable was constant, they were able to reverse-engineer the keys through mathematics.
 

railGUN

Banned
Actually, that's not right either. They had a jailbroken ps3 to rip two different firmwares. Because a certain variable was constant, they were able to reverse-engineer the keys through mathematics.

Yeah I don't know the specifics, but I didn't think they used OtherOS to obtain the keys, and you certainly don't use OtherOS to run homebrew or pirate games on a jailbroken system.

GeoHot did claim to use OtherOS to hack the system but never released the it, I believe because it was not a viable hack that could really benefit users.
 

tranciful

Member
It's an interesting situation.

Let's say hypothetically that it is 100% illegal for Sony to do what they did. What if OtherOS exposed an unfixable hole that made rampant piracy/PSN cheating commonplace? What would be expected of Sony? Suck it up and take those losses? Even if it meant PS3 is a lost cause for them? Over night, their investments made worthless and unsalvageable? They rush out a PS4 or just say fuck it and leave the console industry?

Should Sony have no defense against a situation like that? Wouldn't that do little more than make them even MORE resistant to using open platforms? The way I see it, you can't realistically expect a large company to support open systems (SD cards, Linux, web browser, mods, etc) if you strip them of being able to plug possible holes.

Sony was generous with the PS3 -- easily the most open major game console in modern times (I still commend them for doing way more than Microsoft or Nintendo ever did, and I hope you guys can keep this in perspective). Unfortunately, it bit them in the ass and they had to step back a bit. And if, as many of you suggest, they shouldn't be able to plug holes if vulnerabilities come up, you can be damn sure they'll never try the open model again. They'll keep regressing into doing things like using proprietary memory cards because they'd rather play it safe than risk going under for the sake of offering neat extra features to a niche audience.
 

Sye d'Burns

Member
Ok, Ok, but still. How many of these people actually used the other OS feature for non-illegal activity's ? Seems like very little to me. Most OtherOS people I've seen/met are using it for cheating, hacking, or downloading and playing illegal copies of Games.

Seems like pretty scummy activity to me. Why anybody would side with those people is beyond me. Pirates always like to say, "If you like it, buy it !" But how many people actually do ?

You're talking out of your ass what with you trotting out the old trope that if you're doing something besides pressing x to win on your console that you must be a pirate.

There was a span of a week or so that my PC was down due to faulty hardware. The fact that I could carry on with general browsing made the time it took me to set things right on the pc front much easier to bear.

After that, I continued to use otherOS for Firefox because the included Sony browser sucks. I also checked email and even wrote a paper or two.
 
George’s hack compromises the hypervisor after booting Linux via the “OtherOS” feature. He has used the exploit to add arbitrary read/write RAM access functions and dump the hypervisor. Access to lv1 is a necessary first step in order to mount other attacks against the drive firmware or games.

Yep, seems that Linux was the initial entry door for hackers and pirates.
 

Fusebox

Banned
Yep, seems that Linux was the initial entry door for hackers and pirates.

This is true.

On the other hand, if I sell you an apartment with an unsecure front-door and you get robbed and complain about the door, I can't just take the door out and brick it up.*

*That might be the shittiest analogy ever.
 

tranciful

Member
I thought that hack was never released, nor was it used by fail0verflow to obtain the keys. If I'm mistaken on this point then I will admit I was wrong.
GeoHot Releases PS3 Hack, Exploit Your System and Enjoy! edit: seems to be a banned URL. Just google it.

"In the interest of openness, I've decided to release the exploit. Hopefully, this will ignite the PS3 scene, and you will organize and figure out how to use this to do practical things, like the iPhone when jailbreaks were first released."

Whether it is the root of fail0verflow's exploits is irrelevant. Geohotz was exploiting OtherOS (which at the time was still supported by current firmwares) to open up PS3 to all sorts of hacks. That is what Sony responded to.
 

AgentP

Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
This is true.

On the other hand, if I sell you an apartment with an unsecure front-door and you get robbed and complain about the door, I can't just take the door out and brick it up.*

*That might be the shittiest analogy ever.

Building owner changed the door, all the crying for a feature no none used. Ambulance chasing at its best.
 

Valnen

Member
Linux just isn't as important as the ability to play games/blu-ray or use the PSN, so it's kind of silly to say the main selling point of the console is Linux support. If anything it's an afterthought except for an extremely niche audience.

I'm glad this was thrown out. Sony doesn't need to lose money because they annoyed people over an insignificant issue.
 

Fusebox

Banned
Building owner changed the door, all the crying for a feature no none used. Ambulance chasing at its best.

No, there is no more door.

And just because we don't use Linux on PS3 doesn't mean we shouldn't show a bit of empathy for those who do.
 

noise36

Member
Unfortunate.

Cements that a company can lobotomise a feature from your privately-owned property if it is in their corporate interests.

Very unfortunate. I was very-much hoping to see Sony punished heavily for what they had done, if only to deter such an anticonsumer move from happening again.

Well done Sony, you pulled off something despicable and got away with it.

This.

Corporations vs The individual rights of people.
 

Lain

Member
Shitty decision.

As far as analogies go, I still love my ball cutting one, as that was really the extent of the "choice" Sony gave and that some people were, and are, happy to defend.
 
I still remember the uproar when this and Hotz were discussed in numerous threads in February. The worst contributions were, of course those gaffers calling for homebrew hackers to be raped for the offence they had caused to the innocent Sony. That was pretty bad.

But then as now, I can at least rationalise that type of viciousness as just being a representative of a particular extreme of enthusiast fanaticism. Its horrible, but probably inevitable in an industry that breeds fanboys.

However, openly supporting a corporation that takes your privately-owned product, and years down the line decides to remotely remove a feature because its in their financial interests to do so? That will and forever be a mindset completely unapproachable to me.

They took something that was no longer theirs, that had features A + B + C, then for reasons only beneficial to them, forced a change in that product and amputated feature C (with the token option to preserve it with the loss of mass functionality to the console).

As a community that buy these consoles generation after generation, this is one of the worst things that a manufacturer could get away with. It is entirely detrimental to us, and a significant erosion of what few rights we ever had. From a consumer standpoint, its one of the worst things any company in gaming has ever done. (Some have attacked that last statement as hyperbole before, if you intend to do so again then please provide examples of worse anticonsumer moves).

It is indefensible, and the fact that many are supporting it is causing more than a little confusion. Just as it did in Feburary.
 

Auto_aim1

MeisaMcCaffrey
Removing the Other OS was an unnecessary move, as they could have patched it in a different way maybe. All it did was bring them a lot of negative press, and a severe backlash that ended up in the PSN being hacked. Sony should have never removed it that way, it was a disrespectful thing to do to your customers. While they have every right to protect their interests, they shouldn't have trampled over their customers' rights in the process. It will be interesting to see what they do with the PS4 though, I really hope this incident does not make them release a completely closed system.
 

wutwutwut

Member
It's an interesting situation.

Let's say hypothetically that it is 100% illegal for Sony to do what they did. What if OtherOS exposed an unfixable hole that made rampant piracy/PSN cheating commonplace? What would be expected of Sony? Suck it up and take those losses? Even if it meant PS3 is a lost cause for them? Over night, their investments made worthless and unsalvageable? They rush out a PS4 or just say fuck it and leave the console industry?
If you ship something broken then you should clearly take the hit somehow, whether to your bottom line or in court. This decision sucks because it's a clear case of false advertising.

Should Sony have no defense against a situation like that? Wouldn't that do little more than make them even MORE resistant to using open platforms? The way I see it, you can't realistically expect a large company to support open systems (SD cards, Linux, web browser, mods, etc) if you strip them of being able to plug possible holes.
That's fine, because in that case they wouldn't be able to advertise PS3 as an open platform -- and people who care about openness simply wouldn't consider buying them.

Sony was generous with the PS3 -- easily the most open major game console in modern times (I still commend them for doing way more than Microsoft or Nintendo ever did, and I hope you guys can keep this in perspective).
The difference is that MS/Nintendo's platforms don't pretend to be open.
 

ShdwDrake

Banned
The difference is that MS/Nintendo's platforms don't pretend to be open.
It's not pretending. The PS3 lets me connect almost any Bluetooth headset to it, it lets me expand the HDD memory to as much it I want, it's lets me use a wide veriety of USB accessories all without no proprietary system in place which are profits that Sony could be getting. Accessories on the other systems have to be made specifically for said system. Also it's been said by many a developer that PSN is more open than XBL. Which is why you see steam integration with portal 2 and things like free DLC.
 

Koren

Member
Seems to me you aren't paying very close attention.

you want to keep playing your games? you can.
you want to keep connecting to psn? you never had that right.
you want to keep otherOS? you can.

You want to meet the requirements of a game you want to buy? well, you'll have to update now.
Dangerous thinking...

Imagine that starting from now, all new PS3 games require PSN Plus subscription, for example. Would consider that fair practice ?

Unability to access PSN is one thing. But you can expect, when buying PS3, that you'll be able to play all the games released without loosing some fonctionnalities, as long as they don't require an additional hardware or something like that.
 

Koren

Member
Sony was generous with the PS3
Generous, clever or greedy?

To me, OtherOS is nowhere near a gift to customers. It's one of those:
- a way to reduce taxes (computer can get lower taxes than game consoles... Sony already tried to make PS2 recognized as a computer and not a game console, using the PS2 Linux kit as a proof, which wasn't very convincing)
- a way to avoid the "Linux Bounty"... Best hackers are probably more interested in running Linux on everything than opening way to piracy. Buy allowing Linux on PS3 right of the bat, they avoided most research on how installing it on PS3 anyway (XBox 360 got a bounty), and it wasn't seen as an interesting target at first

It probably hurt them recently, but it's nowhere something like "we intended to offers things to customers and got burned in the process, not fair!".

Ok, Ok, but still. How many of these people actually used the other OS feature for non-illegal activity's ? Seems like very little to me.
Even more little than that (I'd be surprised that it's a 4-digit number, maybe less than that), but you can't found legal decision on "there is very few people using it, so that's not bad".
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
Mama Robotnik said:
They took something that was no longer theirs, that had features A + B + C, then for reasons only beneficial to them, forced a change in that product and amputated feature C (with the token option to preserve it with the loss of mass functionality to the console).

Wrong. The only thing lost was access to PSN, a service which exists outside the box you bought and subject to its own independent terms and conditions. And that wasn't "lost" per se, access rights were simply suspended until the user complied with its terms of service.

The important thing is to consider what the implications would have been had the judgement gone the other way, essentially setting a precedent that once a software feature has been implemented, it cannot ever be removed without risking legal action by an outraged section of the userbase, no matter how small and unrepresentative they are of the whole.

This would be an unbelievably oppressive millstone around the necks of all software and hardware vendors, most likely resulting in hugely accelerated rates of obsolescence due to providers abandoning existing products in order to get a "clean slate" for their next iteration and taking the opportunity to charge consumers again for the next version.

Most importantly though, if you look at the situation rationally there are only a select few circumstances where a provider would ever consider removing existing functionality. Why weaken your value proposition unless the risk of keeping it outweighs it in your business plan? Especially when the far simpler option of simply dropping support and allowing the feature to simply fall into obscurity exists.

The logic of the argument that this decision offers a threat to consumer rights only works if you have a paranoid belief that the "corporations are out to get us". This is nonsense. They want to SELL us things, and removing popular features is not conducive to that goal.

The whole premise that this is some kind of gateway to calamity makes no sense; the removal of OtherOS was not an act of malice, it was done out of fear and a desire to protect the viability of the product and its associated services.

An unviable product is no good for anyone. And as that determination can only be made by the vendor, its up to them to make tough decisions.

The plain truth is that the removal of OtherOS was a non-issue for most users. Its loss doesn't seem to have had an adverse affect on PS3 sales, so maybe killing it was the right decision for their business. I guess we'll never know for sure.

What I am certain of though is that its a feature that they'll never implement again on one of their consoles. And that's a change of policy you can thank Hotz and co for.
 

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
It's not pretending. The PS3 lets me connect almost any Bluetooth headset to it, it lets me expand the HDD memory to as much it I want, it's lets me use a wide veriety of USB accessories all without no proprietary system in place which are profits that Sony could be getting. Accessories on the other systems have to be made specifically for said system. Also it's been said by many a developer that PSN is more open than XBL. Which is why you see steam integration with portal 2 and things like free DLC.
Lol? That's what defines a platform as open to you? A few common format accessories here and there? I guess Wii is an open platform too because I can use any simple USB keyboard and any SD/SDHC card rather than proprietary hardware. PSN has conditions like any service, if some like its terms better doesn't make it "more open".
 

wutwutwut

Member
Wrong. The only thing lost was access to PSN, a service which exists outside the box you bought and subject to its own independent terms and conditions. And that wasn't "lost" per se, access rights were simply suspended until the user complied with its terms of service.
Can I play Uncharted 3 on a PS3 and still retain OtherOS access on it?

The important thing is to consider what the implications would have been had the judgement gone the other way, essentially setting a precedent that once a software feature has been implemented, it cannot ever be removed without risking legal action by an outraged section of the userbase, no matter how small and unrepresentative they are of the whole.
First they came for... (and I just Godwin'd the thread. Whoops.)
 

Monas

Member
The case was on false grounds to begin with and I don't think anyone from the PS3-Linux community (I mean contributing members) had signed the claim against Sony. The dilemma that they made the PS3Linux users face was legit. I was forced to take similar decisions at least 3 other times in the past. Last time with my ebook.

Anyway, the judge/s did the right thing to dismiss the claim, because "but my mom said I should have everything" does not stand as an argument against the court.
 

Koren

Member
The logic of the argument that this decision offers a threat to consumer rights only works if you have a paranoid belief that the "corporations are out to get us". This is nonsense. They want to SELL us things, and removing popular features is not conducive to that goal.
Actually, they SOLD me a second PS3, and I'm not the only one who did that partly because of this issue.

So, it IS conductive to that goal ;)
 

tborsje

Member
True, but proof of concept was shown that you could used OtherOS could be used for exploiting the PS3, so it was legitmate reasons for concern, it wasnt just some theory that something "could happen". This probably scared Sony, so they wanted to take precautions i guess.
(...)
All PS1 games does work on every PS3 :) PS1 emulation is done 100% through software on PS3, so it doesnt cost anything extra to include it.

So I guess that if I set up a blog showing me using Sony's PS1 emulator to access a tiny amount of memory from the PS3's ram, even if I wasn't able to execute any code that compromised the security of the PS3, you would be OK with Sony removing it with the next firmware update? It'd be as much of a 'proof of concept' as Geohot's hack was.


Do you actually know what you're reading there? Nothing came out of Geohot's hack. Neither he, nor anyone in the world could play pirated games on a retail PS3 until the USB dongles popped out of Asia. The dongles were not using an exploit that had anything to do with OtherOS - they worked by rapidly connecting and disconnecting themselves as USB hubs until they triggered an overflow which allowed them to inject code into gameOS.

There seems to be a misunderstanding by some that Geohot was close to allowing people to play backups on their PS3's. The security of the PS3 is in tatters now, but Geohot and OtherOS has had almost nothing to do with it.
 

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
I was forced to take similar decisions at least 3 other times in the past. Last time with my ebook.
Hey guyz, companies do shit all the time, don't worry about it, it's normal, stop bullying poor Sony! Also, wanting your devices to function as fully featured as when you bought them is a whiny child's sense of self entitlement, not rational thinking!

And this case was silly because PSN is separate to PS3 so Sony should be able to happily deny you access to your PSN games, DLC & features, and future non PSN games that require FW updates if you don't gimp your console's featureset (rather than if you hack or otherwise do something malicious) because it's in the fine print! Stop whining!
 

LuchaShaq

Banned
This plus Sony reps laughing at me on the phone multiple times when ps2's broke within 6 months and basically having nothing to say beyond "buy a new one kid" is why I'll wait until the next Sony system is 200 or less again.
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
wutwutwut said:
Can I play Uncharted 3 on a PS3 and still retain OtherOS access on it?

If a piece of software requires a newer OS version, then you need to update if you want to play. If I want to play a DX10+ game on my old XP machine I'm shit out of luck, no matter how modern my hardware is.

...

Social justice just isn't a compatible argument with videogames dude. You don't need them, nobody needs them. Its not a real hardship let alone a matter of life and death!

If you think Sony screwed you over, don't support them. Seriously. All power to you, I'm not faulting anyone for being unhappy about the way things turned out.

On the other hand, my personal take is that I'd rather have a healthy system that's sown up tight as a drum, than an unhealthy one which is riddled with piracy and hacks. Simply because I think there'll be more support for longer with the former compared to the latter.
 

cheststrongwell

my cake, fuck off
I'm sure the percentage of PS3 owners that care about OtherOS is so low that Sony doesn't care. I'd still like to know what people used OtherOS for that doesn't include emulators and stolen snes/genesis games.
 

snap0212

Member
If I want to play a DX10+ game on my old XP machine I'm shit out of luck, no matter how modern my hardware is.
So you're a PC gamer? What if Steam suddenly changed the rules so you cannot re-download games you've already purchased? Shit out of luck as well or would you say that this is not what they were telling you when you've purchased the games / installed Steam?
 

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
If I want to play a DX10+ game on my old XP machine I'm shit out of luck, no matter how modern my hardware is.
You keep using these analogies. They're way off and repeating them doesn't make them any more relevant. Just makes you look desperate.
 

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Actually his analogy is right in the money.
Actually it isn't because Windows 7 isn't a Windows XP update designed to force you to remove functionality you previously enjoyed and Windows XP never promised DX10 which is a wholly new feature that goes beyond "support for new video games" on a functional level, even if to the user it might seem like that. It's a wholly new component introduced after XP. A better analogy would be to say Windows 7 Service Pack #3 comes along and tells you if you don't get it you can't have DX10, which you previously had, making all games, DLC, programs, and so on, that require it inaccessible (and of course including future software that also requires it), and if you do get it, you can't have Internet Explorer (ignoring the fact this can be easily replaced in this case, since the functionality in PS3 can't be), which you also previously had.
 

Pandaman

Everything is moe to me
Dangerous thinking...

Imagine that starting from now, all new PS3 games require PSN Plus subscription, for example. Would consider that fair practice ?
Yes.

Not liking something doesn't make it wrong. As a consumer i would be happy if my games didn't require psn+ but that doesn't mean i can tell sony what they can do with their product.

Unability to access PSN is one thing. But you can expect, when buying PS3, that you'll be able to play all the games released without loosing some fonctionnalities, as long as they don't require an additional hardware or something like that.
when you bought that ps3 you could play all the games released. when otheros was removed, you could play all the games released. You still can play all the games that were released prior to the otheros removal and a few more released after the fact.

A lot of games would have forced updates that would remove otherOS after a while.
So if you wanted to play new games you didn't have a choice.
dont go online when you're playing those games with forced updates.

So you're a PC gamer? What if Steam suddenly changed the rules so you cannot re-download games you've already purchased? Shit out of luck as well or would you say that this is not what they were telling you when you've purchased the games / installed Steam?
when sony starts disabling games you've already purchased as a consequence of a failure to update you might have a point, otheros removal didn't effect anything you had already purchased.
 
People need to stop these idiotic analogies. How is removing an obscure feature that was a possible security risk even close to removing a steering wheel from a car, the ability to play games on steam, left arm of a jacket, or the front door to your house. Please just stop.

It was not core functionality, not advertised, and not very useful.

For everyone saying that this means Sony and other companies now have a precedent to do this in the future have no idea what they are saying. Like the poster above me said, Sony wants you to buy their products, they would only remove something if it would become a detriment to their consumers (having a compromised system IS a detriment to the consumers)

There is no way in hell they would start removing things willy-nilly because they can, it would make no economical sense.
 
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