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[ClosingADoor]

He is not alone. at least about 50% of the population seems to support that, including myself. So if won't be free to go ahead with 155. I can guarantee that.

2,044,038 votes out of 5,313,564 is not 50%. And that is assuming we can trust the numbers, which we can't. And even then, you want to declare independence without even a clear majority here, leading to a divided new nation. Not a very strong plan.

We may loose, but also will the rest of Spain and maybe also EU will face some consquences of inestablilty.

And this is a thing you want? The anti-EU thing here is especially strange, since a lot of the argument from the independent site is that they want to stay part of the EU.

 

[tzare]

2,044,038 votes out of 5,313,564 is not 50%. And that is assuming we can trust the numbers, which we can't. And even then, you want to declare independence without even a clear majority here, leading to a divided new nation. Not a very strong plan.


And this is a thing you want?

i said about. You can check any other election or referendum, and the maximum participation on those, to draw conclusions on how many votes would the 'no' need to reach parity here.
the best way to know would be a legal referendum.Oh wait, that is not possible.lol.

ANd no, i want a legal referendum and majority decides independence yes or no. But we get a negative from Spain. But we also got a negative to Pacto Fiscal, and a negative to Estatut.
And what we do know for sure is that we don't want to continue in Spain in the same fucking conditions.

The anti EU is a growing feeling here amongs independentists becuase they also fail to provide a legal route to solve probles by washing their hands. So far we , independentists,are part of EU, and part of Spain. But nobody cares about us. So why should we care about Spain or EU?

 

[ClosingADoor]

i said about. You can check any other election or referendum, and the maximum participation on those, to draw conclusions on how many votes would the 'no' need to reach parity here.
the best way would be a legal referendum.

ANd no, i want a legal referendum and majority decides independence yes or no. But we get a negative from Spain. But we also got a negative to Pacto Fiscal, and a negative to Estatut.
And what we do know for sure is that we don't want to continue in Spain in the same fucking conditions.

If that "we" is still that 50%, that doesn't really matter that you don't want to continue, if the others are OK with staying in Spain.

The anti EU is a growing feeling here amongs independentists becuase they also fail to provide a legal route to solve probles by washing their hands. So far we , independentists,are part of EU, and part of Spain. But nobody cares about us. So why should we care about Spain or EU?

You expect the EU to throw one of its member states under the bus and at the same time ignite more independent movements in other countries, leading to more instability in the EU while we already deal with the UKs bullshit, Russia creeping at the border and more? Heading into an anti-EU direction with this movement will do nobody any favors, especially not if one of the economic arguments that everything will be OK when going independent is "we will remain part of the EU." Which is not happening of course, but still.

 

[Psyrgery ES]

BTW, the article 155 is not inmediate and could take some months before it can be applied due to how ambiguous that article is.

So I bet Rajoy will try to convince Puigdemont that he still has time to react and back off.

That would be my guess.

 

[tzare]

If that "we" is still that 50%, that doesn't really matter that you don't want to continue, if the others are OK with staying in Spain.


You expect the EU to throw one of its member states under the bus and at the same time ignite more independent movements in other countries, leading to more instability in the EU while we already deal with the UKs bullshit, Russia creeping at the border and more?

if the no wins, like has happenend in Scotland, we accept the results and maybe that could lead to Spain try to make a deal, federal counry, to make Catalonia more comfortable with the rest of Spain, that was the easy way years ago btw., and then this ends or maybe we work , like in any democracy, to have a majority in the future.

UE is shit right now, and has been for a while. It is a superstructure that only seems to serve certain lobbies and maybe its destiny, like most artificial unions, is to disappear.

And with 155... and new autonomical elections, do you really think independentists will vote PSC Cs or PP instead? Lol. Unless they kill us or make independentist parties illegal, that would be fun from a democratic pow, in a country where Fundación F.Franco is a legal entity.....

 

[curi0usBystander]

You can check any other election or referendum, and the maximum participation on those, to draw conclusions on how many votes would the 'no' need to reach parity here.

I don't think is a good idea to compare the turnout of a regular election with a referendum that would change the entirety of the current status quo.

The anti EU is a growing feeling here amongs independentists becuase they also fail to provide a legal route to solve probles by washing their hands. So far we , independentists,are part of EU, and part of Spain. But nobody cares about us. So why should we care about Spain or EU?

I'm not entirely sure what can the EU do (and I'm ignoring the ripple/domino effect that it would create).

 

[mid83]

i said about. You can check any other election or referendum, and the maximum participation on those, to draw conclusions on how many votes would the 'no' need to reach parity here.
the best way to know would be a legal referendum.Oh wait, that is not possible.lol.

ANd no, i want a legal referendum and majority decides independence yes or no. But we get a negative from Spain. But we also got a negative to Pacto Fiscal, and a negative to Estatut.
And what we do know for sure is that we don't want to continue in Spain in the same fucking conditions.

The anti EU is a growing feeling here amongs independentists becuase they also fail to provide a legal route to solve probles by washing their hands. So far we , independentists,are part of EU, and part of Spain. But nobody cares about us. So why should we care about Spain or EU?

Of course the EU is not going to jump on board with the independence movement knowing supporting the Catalans opens the door for the other numerous independence movements to crop up all over the place. Germany and others have their own separatist groups to worry about, so they aren’t going to turn out in support of this one.

Plus, for all the talk about people not caring about the Catalans, I think it’s hard for most people to sympathize with a wealthy region of Spain. The Catalans aren’t treated like the Kurds are.

 

[KingSnake]

The anti EU is a growing feeling here amongs independentists becuase they also fail to provide a legal route to solve probles by washing their hands. So far we , independentists,are part of EU, and part of Spain. But nobody cares about us. So why should we care about Spain or EU?

You continue to ignore that this is not how EU works. You have practically no respect for any kind of law or rule, I see. Only what suits you is good, no matter how illegal.

 

[tzare]

Of course the EU is not going to jump on board with the independence movement knowing supporting the Catalans opens the door for the other numerous independence movements to crop up all over the place. Germany and others have their own separatist groups to worry about, so they aren't going to turn out in support of this one.

Plus, for all the talk about people not caring about the Catalans, I think it's hard for most people to sympathize with a wealthy region of Spain. The Catalans aren't treated like the Kurds are.

wealthy? Maybe we are better economically than other regions of spain, and what? Is not about money, as you can see last days: education, health, security (like mossos being out of europol) this is not about money . It is a much bigger picture.
But i guess having a sub 1500€ salary is being rich now.

You continue to ignore that this is not how EU works. You have practically no respect for any kind of law or rule, I see. Only what suits you is good, no matter how illegal.

What law denies the right to ask for a referendum of autodetermination? If something works wrong, the right thing to do is try to change it.

 

[ClosingADoor]

if the no wins, like has happenend in Scotland, we accept the results and maybe that could lead to Spain try to make a deal, federal counry, to make Catalonia more comfortable with the rest of Spain, that was the easy way years ago btw., and then this ends or maybe we work , like in any democracy, to have a majority in the future.

So even if the majority votes 'no' you expect Spain to make changes for Catalonia?

UE is shit right now, and has been for a while. It is a superstructure that only seems to serve certain lobbies and maybe its destiny, like most artificial unions, is to disappear.

Classic anti-EU arguments here. It is the way it is because having 27 countries in it is a damn hard thing to balance with everyone having different demands. So let's say Catalonia is going independent and wants to join the EU. You expect the EU to change for you also?

You really make it seem like the voice of the minority should count as more then the majority with this kind of talk.

And with 155... and new autonomical elections, do you really think independentists will vote PSC Cs or PP instead? Lol. Unless they kill us or make independentist parties illegal, that would be fun from a democratic pow, in a country where Fundación F.Franco is a legal entity.....

They probably won't, but these are the legal processes Spain has and can use.

wealthy? Maybe we are better economically than other regions of spain, and what? Is not about money, as you can see last days: education, health, security (like mossos being out of europol) this is not about money . It is a much bigger picture.
But i guess having a sub 1500€ salary is being rich now.

You are now ignoring all the arguments about how Catalonia is richer and can make it on its own. So now you are poor again and not wealthy? See how these things shift based on what will gain the most sympathy at that moment.

 

[mid83]

wealthy? Maybe we are better economically than other regions of spain, and what? Is not about money, as you can see last days: education, health, security (like mossos being out of europol) this is not about money . It is a much bigger picture.
But i guess having a sub 1500€ salary is being rich now.

I still fail to see the oppression of the Catalans that is occuring that the rest of Spain and the EU is ignoring.

Plus, what makes you think the economic situation will be any better if Cataluña is independent?

 

[KingSnake]

What law denies the right to ask for a referendum of autodetermination? If something works wrong, the right thing to do is try to change it.

I'm talking about EU laws and rules now. There's no instrument that allows EU to intervene in internal politics of their members. Not even when their governments force the democratic rules, like in Hungary and Poland. And you continue to ignore this because EU doesn't act the way you want.

 

[tzare]

So even if the majority votes 'no' you expect Spain to make changes for Catalonia?


Classic anti-EU arguments here. It is the way it is because having 27 countries in it is a damn hard thing to balance with everyone having different demands. So let's say Catalonia is going independent and wants to join the EU. You expect the EU to change for you also?

You really make it seem like the voice of the minority should count as more then the majority with this kind of talk.


They probably won't, but these are the legal processes Spain has and can use.


You are now ignoring all the arguments about how Catalonia is richer and can make it on its own. So now you are poor again and not wealthy? See how these things shift based on what will gain the most sympathy at that moment.

Spain should have made changes to make Catalonia more comfortable, and you have a clear example wioth Euskadi within the same country. I think is the inteligent thing to do when millions in a certain region are not confortable. Unless you want the problem to grow.

If we become independent, i personally wouldn't want to join the EU, but if Catalonia applied EU can do whatever they see fit. If we get poorer it is our desicion and we have to face the consequences, of course.

I'm talking about EU laws and rules now. There's no instrument that allows EU to intervene in internal politics of their members. Not even when their governments force the democratic rules, like in Hungary and Poland. And you continue to ignore this because EU doesn't act the way you want.

they can 'unofficially' talk and help instead of doing what they do. As it happens in many negotiations including Aznar with ETA for example.

 

[KingSnake]

they can 'unofficially' talk and help instead of doing what they do. As it happens in many negotiations including Aznar with ETA for example.

What have EU done in regards to Aznar and ETA? Can you provide some links because I can't find anything.

 

[tzare]

What have EU done in regards to Aznar and ETA? Can you provide some links because I can't find anything.

not the EU. I mean that even in Spain, and i am sure also in EU, 'parallel' negotiations along the official ones do happen. And right now nothing seems to point that that is happening in this topic.

 

[KingSnake]

not the EU. I mean that even in Spain, and i am sure also in EU, 'parallel' negotiations to the official ones do happen. And right now nothing seems to point that that is happening in this topic.

Negotiations do happen, but they happen around reasonable topics. I mean even with ETA, despite the 43 years of bombing campaign the best outcome was an enlarged autonomy. How do you realistically expect that anybody from outside to support officially or unofficially your position.

Especially since there is no oppression, let's be serious for a moment. You can use you language, you can vote your representatives both at national and regional level, you have autonomy. What you can't currently do is breaking the law.

There is really no justification for going straight to the most radical option. You want support while actively threatening to hurt economically Spain, EU and yourself. This is blackmail, not negotiation.

Get a bit of a grip of the reality.

 

[tzare]

Negotiations do happen, but they happen around reasonable topics. I mean even with ETA, despite the 43 years of bombing campaign the best outcome was an enlarged autonomy. How do you realistically expect that anybody from outside to support officially or unofficially your position.

Especially since there is no oppression, let's be serious for a moment. You can use you language, you can vote your representatives both at national and regional level, you have autonomy. What you can't currently do is breaking the law.

There is really no justification for going straight to the most radical option. You want support while actively threatening to hurt economically Spain, EU and yourself. This is blackmail, not negotiation.

Get a bit of a grip of the reality.

I am serious. It happens i do not agree with you. Basically one point here that makes your argument 'invalid': the bolded is untrue. This started in 2006 with the Estatut. So we have gone a long way before reaching this 'radical' option.

As for the relation with Spain, with , as i said, Euskadi having a muuuuuuuch better deal, allowed by the same Constitution, is hard to justify the constant denial from the Spanish government.

We face our reality every fucking day. So we know a bit about it. And the reality this time is that a lot of people are willing to go further. And the problem won't disappear unless a new deal is reached. Or you can try to silen +2 million people by making us illegal too. At least that is also an option that has started to appear (in public) lately.

 

[Ferr986]

To be fair I feel like Puigdemont said that he didnt declare the independence in today's letter, although not as clearly as PP wanted.

I mean, he says that the declaration of independence wasn't voted in the Parliament, that means that it wasn't declared, because the procedure to declare the independence is to vote it in the Parliament (something that would make it approved because they have the majority).

Now you can say "why he didn't clearly said yes or no though?". I don't know, but take into account, what would happen if Puigdemont clearly said "it wasn't declared"?. It would be an absolutely SHITSHOW here. Independentists would be friggin mad and if they have shown something is that they know how to mobilize the streets. And as someone living here, I don't want that shit.

As I said it's so easy to ask and say shit when you're not living here. I think PP should be more considerate and atleast slow down a little, but I wonder if they wanted to do the 155 no matter what... Especially with Rivera aka Farlopín in Rajoy's ear repeating 155 every damn day.

 

[RSB]

As for the relation with Spain, with , as i said, Euskadi having a muuuuuuuch better deal, allowed by the same Constitution, is hard to justify the constant denial from the Spanish government.

Giving the same deal to Catalonia would mean a budget cut of about 10% for every other region in Spain. Catalonia is already one of the richest regions, but I'm sure the rest of Spain would have no problem making that sacrifice, especially with the constant blackmail from Puigdemont, Junqueras, and the rest of the catalan nationalists.

Spoiler

/s

Though at this point, I think not even that would be enough to the increasingly fanatical hard core of the catalan nationalists. For example, the anti-capitalists (CUP) pretty much said they want Catalonia to be independent even if it means being isolated and poor.

 

[marcbret87]

To be fair I feel like Puigdemont said that he didnt declare the independence in today's letter, although not as clearly as PP wanted.

I mean, he says that the declaration of independence wasn't voted in the Parliament, that means that it wasn't declared, because the procedure to declare the independence is to vote it in the Parliament (something that would make it approved because they have the majority).

Now you can say "why he didn't clearly said yes or no though?". I don't know, but take into account, what would happen if Puigdemont clearly said "it wasn't declared"?. It would be an absolutely SHITSHOW here. Independentists would be friggin mad and if they have shown something is that they know how to mobilize the streets. And as someone living here, I don't want that shit.

As I said it's so easy to ask and say shit when you're not living here. I think PP should be more considerate and atleast slow down a little, but I wonder if they wanted to do the 155 no matter what... Especially with Rivera aka Farlopín in Rajoy's ear repeating 155 every damn day.

You are answering your own question. The reason why he can't flatout say he didn't declare anything is purely internal politics. The other coalition party, CUP, is asking for a declaration of independence, and many people who don't understand shit about the matter are also expecting it, as they think such a declaration would mean automatic independence. However, this is not the central government's problem, as it's Catalonia's own government that created unrealistic expectations of what it could achieve. And while he said he kinda didn't declare independence, he still says he has the mandate to pursue that and that he even threatened to do it. The central government can't accept that.

And while you don't want this shit, the truth is simple: shit will come whatever happens. If the autonomy is finally suspended there will likely be demonstrations in any case and probably clashes with the police.

 

[marcbret87]

Of course the EU is not going to jump on board with the independence movement knowing supporting the Catalans opens the door for the other numerous independence movements to crop up all over the place. Germany and others have their own separatist groups to worry about, so they aren’t going to turn out in support of this one.

Plus, for all the talk about people not caring about the Catalans, I think it’s hard for most people to sympathize with a wealthy region of Spain. The Catalans aren’t treated like the Kurds are.[/QUOTE]

This pretty much. A video like the one they made the other day (Help Catalonia, Save Europe) is absolutely ludicrous coming from a region that has this level of self-government, schools in its own language, has its own police...

 

[marcbret87]

wealthy? Maybe we are better economically than other regions of spain, and what? Is not about money, as you can see last days: education, health, security (like mossos being out of europol) this is not about money . It is a much bigger picture.
But i guess having a sub 1500€ salary is being rich now.


What law denies the right to ask for a referendum of autodetermination? If something works wrong, the right thing to do is try to change it.

The constitution. Same as in pretty much every other country.

 

[Business]

The constitution. Same as in pretty much every other country.

Not pretty much every other country has Spain's problems with it though, isn't it. Would have been worth looking into it during the last decade, at least.

 

[tzare]

Giving the same deal to Catalonia would mean a budget cut of about 10% for every other region in Spain. Catalonia is already one of the richest regions, but I'm sure the rest of Spain would have no problem making that sacrifice, especially with the constant blackmail from Puigdemont, Junqueras, and the rest of the catalan nationalists.

Spoiler

/s

Though at this point, I think not even that would be enough to the increasingly fanatical hard core of the catalan nationalists. For example, the anti-capitalists (CUP) pretty much said they want Catalonia to be independent even if it means being isolated and poor.

oh, so it is about money afterall? So why allow it to Euskadi and not Catalonia? Aren't we supposed to be the same unde the Spanish umbrella?
Or are the Basque better than us for some reason and they are allowed and we are not? (not that i want them to lose their 'concierto', but it is hard to justify constant denial when the deal exists within the same constitution, and we asked to improve our won for years following the 'legal path'. We can contribute to Spain, but with better conditions.

btw....

https://twitter.com/DieterDujardin/status/921029380960382976

if they treat like this to another country you can expect nothing better to a 'region' like us.

Btw , they want to go after TV3 to make it neutral. It is funny considering how 'neutral' are all the other TVs in spain, including TVE that is a joke as proven by its own workers. Also after Mossos. they can't stand them from Barcelona attack , it has been a constant atteck to them from spain, and obviously the stance of the mossos, much more peacufl, than GC and national Police. they want us silent, like in a totalitary country.

 

[Metroxed]

Although I sympathise with Catalans and their struggle for self-determination, it is important to remember that Catalonia was offered a similar deal the Basque Country has during the Transition in the late 70s (or early 80s, I don't remember), and the Generalitat rejected the offer.

The Basque deal comes with great benefits but also with big disadvantages that a community should be willing to accept (for example, you cannot count with the central government coming and rescuing you financially when you need it, the Basque economy was in shambles in the early 90s and we had no help at all, we had to get out of it by ourselves).

Catalonia decided back in the day that they did not want that responsability. It is fine to change positions, but let's not frame it as "we have always asked for it and they have always denied it to us".

As to why the Spanish government does not want to give a Basque-like deal to Catalonia now is quite clear, they don't want to lose power. In the 70s the fragile political situation allowed for it but today it will be much, much harder to get such a deal from Spain.

 

[ClosingADoor]

oh, so it is about money afterall? So why allow it to Euskadi and not Catalonia? Aren't we supposed to be the same unde the Spanish umbrella?
Or are the Basque better than us for some reason and they are allowed and we are not? (not that i want them to lose their 'concierto', but it is hard to justify constant denial when the deal exists within the same constitution, and we asked to improve our won for years following the 'legal path'. We can contribute to Spain, but with better conditions.

So now you shift from: we want a better deal, to: the others can't have a better deal.

 

[tzare]

So now you shift from: we want a better deal, to: the others can't have a better deal.

mmm i don't shift.
It is just that we asked for a better deal (Catalonia, the Generalitat, in 2006, not me) , and have been denied it when a similar deal already exists within current legality. And obviously if one of the reasons of the deal is that a bigger % of our taxes stays in Catalonia, well it is obvious that other regions may have to adapt a little to.
Also Euskadi can keep their deal, ofc, it is just an example of the hypocrisy from Spanish government, that asks for parity for all regions when we have one that has a specific deal tailored to their needs.

Although I sympathise with Catalans and their struggle for self-determination, it is important to remember that Catalonia was offered a similar deal the Basque Country has during the Transition in the late 70s (or early 80s, I don't remember), and the Generalitat rejected the offer.

Is that so? I never heard of this. And who decided against should be ashamed if true.

 

[Night Terror]

mmm i don't shift.
It is just that we asked for a better deal (Catalonia, the Generalitat, in 2006, not me) , and have been denied it when a similar deal already exists within current legality. And obviously if one of the reasons of the deal is that a bigger % of our taxes stays in Catalonia, well it is obvious that other regions may have to adapt a little to.
Also Euskadi can keep their deal, ofc, it is just an example of the hypocrisy from Spanish government, that asks for parity for all regions when we have one that has a specific deal tailored to their needs.



Is that so? I never heard of this. And who decided against should be ashamed if true.

I've heard that often too, that Jordi Pujol declined said offer. How much of it is true, though, I have absolutely no idea.

 

[tzare]

I've heard that often too, that Jordi Pujol declined said offer. How much of it is true, though, I have absolutely no idea.

yes it surprises me. Not saying is not true, but seems weird since Pujol had been reaching deals forever with Spanish government (what they call now from spain the rational nationalism they would like to see back, forgetting the famous 'Pujol enano habla castellano ' from de 90's) , and EUskadi has always had a much better position compared to us

 

[ClosingADoor]

mmm i don't shift.
It is just that we asked for a better deal (Catalonia, the Generalitat, in 2006, not me) , and have been denied it when a similar deal already exists within current legality. And obviously if one of the reasons of the deal is that a bigger % of our taxes stays in Catalonia, well it is obvious that other regions may have to adapt a little to.
Also Euskadi can keep their deal, ofc, it is just an example of the hypocrisy from Spanish government, that asks for parity for all regions when we have one that has a specific deal tailored to their needs.

And this is why you lose a lot of sympathy. Because it just looks like as the richer region, you don't want your money to go towards poorer ones. You say others have to "adapt a little" but don't want to yourself.

 

[Night Terror]

yes it surprises me. Not saying is not true, but seems weird since Pujol had been reaching deals forever with Spanish government (what they call now from spain the rational nationalism they would like to see back, forgetting the famous 'Pujol enano habla castellano ' from de 90's) , and EUskadi has always had a much better position compared to us

Found this by El Periódico (spanish edition) that talks about this: http://www.elperiodico.com/es/polit...o-concierto-economico-cupo-vasco-1980-6020846

And this is why you lose a lot of sympathy. Because it just looks like as the richer region, you don't want your money to go towards poorer ones. You say others have to "adapt a little" but don't want to yourself.

I'd like to debate on this but I'm lacking some information on a few things myself, so I'd rather not speak about the economical/industrial handling of Spain altogether.

Having said this I've always had the feeling our country is much, much poorer than it should actually be by itself.

 

[tzare]

And this is why you lose a lot of sympathy. Because it just looks like as the richer region, you don't want your money to go towards poorer ones. You say others have to "adapt a little" but don't want to yourself.

oh, so we if think that most of our taxes don't return to our region, which means worst public services for us, in a country with this ratio of public workers for example:

and that that is a problem and needs to be fixed, we arent 'sympa'. Not to mention that the deal is not only money, there are a lot of other topics like language, education etc
So we can't complain. We can't ask for better conditions. Can we breathe at least?

Found this by El Periódico (spanish edition) that talks about this: http://www.elperiodico.com/es/politi...o-1980-6020846

Will try to dig if i can find more info.

It true it was a bad deal for sure. The thing is, why not offer in 2006 a similar one, things evolve over the years.

 

[Night Terror]

Will try to dig if i can find more info.

It true it was a bad deal for sure. The thing is, why not offer in 2006 a similar one, things evolve over the years.

If I understand the way this works, I guess the goverment would lose some money/power in the process?

EDIT: Maybe time to move to this thread: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1450158 ?

 

[ClosingADoor]

oh, so we if think that most of our taxes don't return to our region, which means worst public services for us, in a country with this ratio of public workers for example:
http://estaticos03.expansion.com/estaticas/imagenes/grafico_empleo.jpg

and that that is a problem and needs to be fixed, we arent 'sympa'. Not to mention that the deal is not only money, there are a lot of other topics like language, education etc
So we can't complain. We can't ask for better conditions. Can we breathe at least?

In any country, the richer region subsidizes the poorer ones to some extend. There is nothing wrong with that, and argueing that they don't deserve your tax money is not gaining any sympathy.

The language and education issues have popped up in this discussion before. I still don't see the issues with that. You can speak, write and educate all in your own language. You even fine people for not having things in Catalan, but only in Spanish. What is exactly the problem here?

Exaggerating with arguments like "can we breathe at least" is useless. Explain why you think your tax money shouldn't go to poorer regions to help, explain why you feel your language is under threat, explain what you think is wrong with your education system. Maybe that will get some people to your side in this thread, but for now it looks just like playing a victim the whole time while Catalonia is one of the richer regions of Spain.

 

[tzare]

If I understand the way this works, I guess the goverment would lose some money/power in the process?

well i am not an expert, so take it with caution.
Each region pays taxes (its citizens and companies/enterprises...) , that go to Spanish government and it 'send's it back' to the regions again to pay for public services.

The richest pay more .That is understandable. What we want in Catalonia is that we can receive more, not stop contributing,not helping the others: our public services are not in best shape, and for example, most highways in Catalonia are toll-roads, unlike most of Spanish ones. Our health service is in very bad shape too.
So ratios need to be adjusted.
Not the best example, but the cow that gives you milk needs to eat too to survive.
That is what here are called 'balanzas fiscales'

In any country, the richer region subsidizes the poorer ones to some extend. There is nothing wrong with that, and argueing that they don't deserve your tax money is not gaining any sympathy.

The language and education issues have popped up in this discussion before. I still don't see the issues with that. You can speak, write and educate all in your own language. You even fine people for not having things in Catalan, but only in Spanish. What is exactly the problem here?

Exaggerating with arguments like "can we breathe at least" is useless. Explain why you think your tax money shouldn't go to poorer regions to help, explain why you feel your language is under threat, explain what you think is wrong with your education system. Maybe that will get some people to your side in this thread, but for now it looks just like playing a victim the whole time while Catalonia is one of the richer regions of Spain.

see above.
The thing is we have been trying to explain this forever, in Spain, where it matters. but they ignore us or even worse, they even boicott us.
Explaining in forums is quite tiring, like it can be on twitter, beacuse a single 'agressive' message disrupts the conversation. Also tiring because we are minority here. As you can see above, i write something, i get quoted by many, so sometimes it is difficult to keep focused trying to answer in a educated manner. And when tired, sometimes the answer is not very polite. That is when 'can we breathe' appears.
Hope you can understand that.

 

[hans_castorp]

well i am not an expert, so take it with caution.
Each region pays taxes (its citizens and companies/enterprises...) , that go to Spanish government and it 'send's it back' to the regions again to pay for public services.

The richest pay more .That is understandable. What we want in Catalonia is that we can receive more, not stop contributing,not helping the others: our public services are not in best shape, and for example, most highways in Catalonia are toll-roads, unlike most of Spanish ones. Our health service is in very bad shape too.
So ratios need to be adjusted.
Not the best example, but the cow that gives you milk needs to eat too to survive.
That is what here are called 'balanzas fiscales'

You're aware that Health competence is transfered right?
It was CiU who left it in its current state and one of the reasons why Mas jumped onto the independence bandwagon. To avoid an electoral debacle.

 

[tzare]

You're aware that Health competence is transfered right?
It was CiU who left it in its current state and one of the reasons why Mas jumped onto the independence bandwagon. To avoid an electoral debacle.

yes it is transferred, but the money to run it comes from Spain. In fact we cannot go to the markets since economic crisis by law, they forbid autonomic debt, so every € we get is delivered by Spain (€ that we pay here too btw)
Mas may have jumped to the independence wagon to avoid debacle, but the independentist wagon is much wider, and Mas is no more the president, and ERC has most of the votes for a reason.
Yo can also listen to the famous 'nos hemos cargado su sanidad' thing that is recorded in a conversation with Fdez Diaz spanish Minister of defense. I guess Mas didn't do well, but Spain sure didn't act to pretect his Catalan citizens .....

can check here. Of coruse this wasn't on ANY of the many spanish tvs, not even the 'progressive' ones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nK5b1W9OPok

 

[TimmmV]

This pretty much. A video like the one they made the other day (Help Catalonia, Save Europe) is absolutely ludicrous coming from a region that has this level of self-government, schools in its own language, has its own police...

That video was staggering in its ignorance of the privilege people already have living in Catalonia/Spain. Especially complaining about how they respect public health and womens rights - as if that isn't already the case with Catalonia being part of Spain??

 

[Metroxed]

Will try to dig if i can find more info.

It true it was a bad deal for sure. The thing is, why not offer in 2006 a similar one, things evolve over the years.

What I've heard is that it was the exact same deal. With the whole "coffee for all" process that was going on, Spain could not afford customised models for each region. Catalonia was to be given the Basque model on the basis that it was one of the "historical" autonomous communities. But the fact remains that the Basque model means a lot of responsability for the autonomous government. You can't blame others for your fuck ups.

 

[tzare]

What I've heard is that it was the exact same deal. With the whole "coffee for all" process that was going on, Spain could not afford customised models for each region. Catalonia was to be given the Basque model on the basis that it was one of the "historical" autonomous communities. But the fact remains that the Basque model means a lot of responsability for the autonomous government. You can't blame others for your fuck ups.

First this needs to be proven to be truth. And if true, it doesn't mean we have to keep that deal forever if it is not fair. In the end, if Spain wants to be a nation of nations, all of them have to be confortable.

 

[Metroxed]

Oh, I agree. Whether they were offered it or not, that was +40 years ago, that shouldn't invalidate any requests done today. The problem however is that getting such a deal out of Spain in the 70s and 80s was easy; the political situation was fragile and the Spanish government led by UCD (moderate right) was ready to compromise. The situation in 2017 with a PP that wants to please the Spanish nationalists which form the bases of their party, is utterly different. It'll be difficult to achieve.

 

[RSB]

Oh, I agree. Whether they were offered it or not, that was +40 years ago, that shouldn't invalidate any requests done today. The problem however is that getting such a deal out of Spain in the 70s and 80s was easy; the political situation was fragile and the Spanish government led by UCD (moderate right) was ready to compromise. The situation in 2017 with a PP that wants to please the Spanish nationalists which form the bases of their party, is utterly different. It'll be difficult to achieve.

Yep, the special treatment Euskadi recieves is already quite controversial in the rest of Spain, and that region has only 2 million people. Catalonia has 7 million, so giving them the same deal would be pretty much impossible. Every region would have to take a 10% budget cut (or more) and given they are already poorer than Catalonia, I don't think they would accept it (especially after the recent events)

 

[Shiggy]

268 companies moved their legal headquarters out of Catalonia yesterday, almost 1200 since the beginning of October.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/nearly-1-200-firms-moved-headquarters-catalonia-170632886.html

 

[gutter_trash]

2,044,038 votes out of 5,313,564 is not 50%. And that is assuming we can trust the numbers, which we can't. And even then, you want to declare independence without even a clear majority here, leading to a divided new nation. Not a very strong plan.


And this is a thing you want? The anti-EU thing here is especially strange, since a lot of the argument from the independent site is that they want to stay part of the EU.

plus it was a back alley unofficial Referendum to boot without oversite, completely controlled by the Pro-Independence camp

 

[gutter_trash]

268 companies moved their legal headquarters out of Catalonia yesterday, almost 1200 since the beginning of October.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/nearly-1-200-firms-moved-headquarters-catalonia-170632886.html

that's exponentially worse than the Quebec exodus from Montreal to Toronto in 1976-1980 in an even way shorter amount of time.

 

[forknknife]

268 companies moved their legal headquarters out of Catalonia yesterday, almost 1200 since the beginning of October.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/nearly-1-200-firms-moved-headquarters-catalonia-170632886.html

The Catalan government was going to have a secret meeting today with some major corporations to try to calm things down and stop companies from moving their HQs out.
Then el confidencial broke the news about it and the meeting was cancelled.

The news piece is here in Spanish.
https://www.elconfidencial.com/empr...nion-secreta-frenar-sangria-empresas_1463819/

I'm not sure but I think that this is probably the only thing that can put all this conflict to an end. PP and PSOE would be better desisting with the 155 and just let this situation run its course.

 

[The Living Tribunal]

The Catalan government was going to have a secret meeting today with some major corporations to try to calm things down and stop companies from moving their HQs out.
Then el confidencial broke the news about it and the meeting was cancelled.

The news piece is here in Spanish.
https://www.elconfidencial.com/empr...nion-secreta-frenar-sangria-empresas_1463819/

I'm not sure but I think that this is probably the only thing that can put all this conflict to an end. PP and PSOE would be better desisting with the 155 and just let this situation run its course.

Oficialmente, la respuesta de Junqueras siempre ha sido minimizar el fenómeno. Primero lo relativizó diciendo que tampoco pasaba nada porque se iban a los países catalanes, días después puso el énfasis en que no marchaba el personal ni se cerraban plantas productivas.

Amazing, he might as well tell the representatives to hold on to their butts because they're going to the magical land of Oz. Corporations and investors hate uncertainty and risk even more than temporarily losing money, i can imagine the look on their faces when they are basically being told to relax and enjoy the ride to a hypothetical new country.

 

[marcbret87]

That video was staggering in its ignorance of the privilege people already have living in Catalonia/Spain. Especially complaining about how they respect public health and womens rights - as if that isn't already the case with Catalonia being part of Spain??

Yeah, it's absolutely out of touch. I told a Ukrainian colleague about the video and she looked at me and said: "You know this is nowhere near what happened in Ukraine right? ". Obviously I do, but some of my pro-independence friends seem to think the video is absolutely fine.

The Catalan government was going to have a secret meeting today with some major corporations to try to calm things down and stop companies from moving their HQs out.
Then el confidencial broke the news about it and the meeting was cancelled.

The news piece is here in Spanish.
https://www.elconfidencial.com/empr...nion-secreta-frenar-sangria-empresas_1463819/

I'm not sure but I think that this is probably the only thing that can put all this conflict to an end. PP and PSOE would be better desisting with the 155 and just let this situation run its course.

This is probably true. Since they didn't declare independence it is becoming increasingly clear that they have no way of achieving it at present time. Using the 155 can galvanize the pro-independence support once again. The thing is, you have a regional government which refuses to follow the law of the country and is hellbent on going for independence despite the many warnings they have received. Also, while this situation is hurting Catalonia, it is of course at the same time hurting all of Spain.

 

[forknknife]

155 is go... political shitstorm incoming!

 

[Ferr986]

Expected but they went all in with the interpretation of the 155. Rajoy basically takes control of everything until the new elections.