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[Elfotografoalocado]

Is there but way more minoritary by the years and years of ETA violence. Also Basque is in a priviliaged position in the current autonomic model.



Some people think that way, but it's not representative of the movement now.

In the same way some spanish ppl think we are the fucking worst.

I wouldn't say it's necessarily privileged, it's just that they have more independence. If one year they have a bad economic outcome they could have trouble, but thankfully they enjoy a healthy economy, good economic policy and shielding from the bullshit of the Government. Which Cataluña does not. Though the community that has it the worst by far is Valencia, IMO.

I'll just say, most of Spain DIDN'T vote for PP ir Ciudadanis. It's a loud minority. Please work with us to push them out and build a better country.

Edit: I guess the Basque Country is privileged in the sense that they are shielded from the bullshit of PP. They just run their own economy and do great at it. I'm proud of my Basque heritage lol.

More edit: About Charles III, comparing him to Robert E.Lee is completely missing what he did in his historical context, good and bad alike. He was one of those "Enlightened despots".
He reformed the Universities top to bottom and created schools of trades, put a lot of focus in infrastructure and roads, put together a plan of industrial development, public hospitals...
He reduced the number of people of the nobility, and declared labor by the nobility an honorable thing. (This was huge at the time, look up "Hidalgo" and how there were thousands of idle, starving members of a petty low nobility)
All in all he was a technocrat and had the ideas of "reason" and national cohesion that the Enlightenment did. He was an autocrat and a flawed ruler, and imposed his interpretation of "reason" in many aspects of society, but comparing him to Robert E.Lee is stupid. We have Ferdinand VII for that.

 

[KonradLaw]

Anecdotal evidence to counter anecdotal evidence.

From my experience, all of Europe is incredibly racist while liking to they they aren't. Color of skin affects things like club admission. Ask your relative.

Show me politicians in power, etc. Beforr saying people arent racist. Racism is not just hateful overt racism. It's much more insidious than that.

Color of the skin. Oh summer child, you know nothing about Europe's prejudices. This isn't USA where ethnic identities were mostly wiped out untill they merged into simple color groups. Here in Europe we take out xenphobia in much more serious and complex way. People can be ok with brown neighbour and hate a white dude, just because that white dude is from the country that did something couple hundred years ago

 

[His Majesty]

Damn Bourbon cunt, this guy makes me rage like no other. A king who was appointed to his post (well, his dad the whoremonger thief) by a dictator speaking about democracy, shitting on the voters, no mention to the injured and threatening with suspending the autonomy is the perfect example of what this fucking joke of a country this is. Spain is a shitshow cemented on lies and oppression. Then people wonder why half of Catalonia wants to run away from that. Well, no shit, the question is, who wants to stay???

Good job putting more oil on the fire from Felipe. Once again proving that monarchies are an outdated concept and should be abolished as soon as possible.

 

[vonStirlitz]

Is it correct that the head of Catalan police may face sedition charges? If so, that raises the political temperature...

Surely the comeback would be to argue no jurisdiction following a claim of independence and pursue the PM for human rights abuses.

 

[Atolm]

King Felipe and PM Rajoy are too hardline on their rhetoric.

They SHOULD just do like David Cameron did and sit down with Alex Salmond and agree to the terms of the question and the vote when it pertained to Scotland.

Spain's hardline is just simply echoing the darker years of the Absoltionists of the 19th Century and the Fascists of the 20th Century.

There's no point in listening to the King. Everyone with a brain saw through the message from yesterday clearly. It was something dictated by the PP, it was so obvious to the point of being pathetic, the only thing they managed to accomplish was to make Catalonians aware of how the King won't be a factor in solving this problem, and how right they are in pushing for a Republic.

Felipe's father, our beloved drunkard and hooker-lover emeritus King, would have never approved such an inflammatory message. He knew how to be conciliatory when he needed to and pledged to no one; the political parties pledged to him. That's how he survived politically. His son proved yesterday that he's a puppet.

 

[KingSnake]

King Felipe and PM Rajoy are too hardline on their rhetoric.

They SHOULD just do like David Cameron did and sit down with Alex Salmond and agree to the terms of the question and the vote when it pertained to Scotland.

Spain's hardline is just simply echoing the darker years of the Absoltionists of the 19th Century and the Fascists of the 20th Century.

The Catalan politicians are also not on the level of SNP. They want to skip all the steps. When Salmond negotiated the referendum, SNP was already quite important at the national level and absolutely dominant in Scotland.

 

[gutter_trash]

There's no point in listening to the King. Everyone with a brain saw through the message from yesterday clearly. It was something dictated by the PP, it was so obvious to the point of being pathetic, the only thing they managed to accomplish was to make Catalonians aware of how the King won't be a factor in solving this problem, and how right they are in pushing for a Republic.

Felipe's father, our beloved drunkard and hooker-lover emeritus King, would have never approved such a message. He knew how to be conciliatory when he needed to and pledged to no one; the political parties pledged to him. That's how he survived politically. His son proved yesterday that he's a puppet.

and proved that the Monarchy in the present context to be totally useless with condescending echoes of Castilian Supremecy

 

[deathkiller]

Is it correct that the head of Catalan police may face sedition charges? If so, that raises the political temperature...

In don't think that changes anything, he has only been the head of the Catalan police for a short time and the previous head was removed for not being pro-independence. Everyone in the Catalonian government is more than ready to break the law to further the independence cause (those who weren't were fired/replaced in the last months).

 

[His Majesty]

In don't think that changes anything, he has only been the head of the Catalan police for a short time and the previous head was removed for not being pro-independence. Everyone in the Catalonian government is more than ready to break the law to further the independence cause (those who weren't were fired/replaced in the last months).

He resigned himself.

 

[santi_yo]

and proved that the Monarchy in the present context to be totally useless with condescending echoes of Castilian Supremecy

What does Castilian Supremacy even mean?

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

The Catalan politicians are also not on the level of SNP. They want to skip all the steps. When Salmond negotiated the referendum, SNP was already quite important at the national level and absolutely dominant in Scotland.

Catalonian goverment said several times that they would like to negotiate all important points in the referendum, the only obstacle here is PP and C's. Also most parties here and most part of the popumlation here would suport it

What does Castilian Supremacy even mean?

Kicking minorities in the balls or out of the country since 1492.

Remember when Isabel II betrayed spanish jews and kikcked them out of Spain?

 

[Acidote]

He resigned himself.

"resigned"

As in "we'll let you resign before we fire you for not following the orders we are going to give you".

People has been replaced to help further their agenda. That is a fact.

 

[gutter_trash]

What does Castilian Supremacy even mean?

Castile ended up as the Big Dog at the end while the rest of the former smaller kingdoms and regions ended up subjugated to Castile as their overlords.

Absolutionists, Fascists and Conservatives have made that obvious

 

[KingSnake]

Catalonian goverment said several times that they would like to negotiate all important points in the referendum, the only obstacle here is PP and C's. Also most parties here and most part of the popumlation here would suport it

I think you're missing the point here. These negotiations should have happened before doing a proper referendum.

Catalan government bluffed with a useless referendum and Spanish government called their bluff (in quite a dumb way, but that's another discussion).

Yes, it could still happen, but it requires the Catalan government to take a step back instead of escalating to a point of no return.

 

[cebri.one]

Lol castillian supremacy. And i thought this could not get more stupid that it already is.

 

[His Majesty]

for all our American friends this video is all you need to see to form your opinion on the subject

 

[gutter_trash]

Lol castillian supremacy. And i thought this could not get more stupid that it already is.

They are not bothered to learn any of the smaller languages.

Olivença's youth have completely been Castilianized. Any trace of Portuguese in Olivença is now only present by name and the elderly. That's how Castilian assimilation works

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

I think you're missing the point here. These negotiations should have happened before doing a proper referendum.

Catalan government bluffed with a useless referendum and Spanish government called their bluff (in quite a dumb way, but that's another discussion).

Yes, it could still happen, but it requires the Catalan government to take a step back instead of escalating to a point of no return.

Is they step back it will be interpreted as a win for the central goverment, which will do what has being doing the last 10 years: Referendum is out of the question.

And they will humilliate and procesate half the catalonian goverment anyway.

 

[Deku Tree]

Is Barcelona still going to be able to play Madrid in football?

 

[KingSnake]

Is they step back it will be interpreted as a win for the central goverment, which will do what has being doing the last 10 years: Referendum is out of the question.

And they will humilliate and procesate half the catalonian goverment anyway.

If they push forward is state of emergency and suspension at the very least.

 

[forknknife]

The referendum asked three following:

Do you want Catalonia to become an independent state in the form of a republic?

No specific question in regards to a unilateral declaration of independence.

If the Catalan government declares Catalonia independent unilaterally for me they will be in the wrong side of the argument again.

I believe that the unilateral declaration of independence is just meant to force the Spanish government to enact article 155 and scalate the conflict. This is a highly irresponsible move from the Catalan government side too. Hope they think twice about what they say they're going to be doing.

I just don't want more blood on the streets.

 

[Ferr986]

EU Parliament debating about Catalonia right now.

 

[trembli0s]

They are not bothered to learn any of the smaller languages.

Olivença's youth have completely been Castilianized. Any trace of Portuguese in Olivença is now only present by name and the elderly. That's how Castilian assimilation works

So basically the historical progression of any centralizing state on earth, see the United States, France, etc.

 

[gutter_trash]

So basically the historical progression of any centralizing state on earth, see the United States, France, etc.

France is the most repressive one LOL. ask Bretons and Occitan how they feel about their language not be recognized by Paris.

 

[turmoil]

Is someone working on a new OT?

I have done this,

On October 1st, Catalans were called to the polling stations by their autonomic government on a independence referendum(1-O, October 1st) condemned as unconstitutional by the central government and judiciary. Prior days saw the confiscation of ballots and ballot boxes together with some Catalan officials being put on custody. On referendum day there were clashes between voters and the police trying to stop the vote, Catalan authorities say the number of injured is higher than 800 and denounce police brutality, the central government argues that the use of force was proportional. The international press has widely denounced the episode has something that can't be seen in modern western Europe. In spite of the inconveniences Catalonia's government continued with the referendum, according to them, the results are:

Do you want Catalonia to become an independent state in the form of a republic?

Yes 2,020,144 91.96%
No 176,565 8.04%

With a turnout of 48%, supporters of staying in Spain didn't vote as they mostly didn't recognize the legitimacy of this election, some pro referendum catalans probably weren't able to vote due to police closing some polling stations and the fear of violent episodes happening.

The independence movement has increased in Catalonia in the last years, it is believed that currently Catalan society is divided 50/50 on this matter, with 70% of catalonians supporting an agreed referendum.

After the referendum, there were massive protest in Barcelona and other Catalan cities against what they consider the violent manners of the police handling the situation. Central government considers that the referendum was sucesfully stopped and called the Catalan to abide by the rule of law. The Catalan president has said that they will be declaring independence in a matter of days.

King Felipe VI gave an speech positioning himself with the government, without mentioning the injured, something that exacerbated the Catalan nationalists.

Looks like next Monday the Catalan Parliament will session on a probable unilateral declaration of independence, if that happens it is expected that the central government will suspend Catalonia's autonomy, likely inciting violence on the streets.

Tried to make it as impartial as possible

TO DO:
The Game: Current Spanish Constitution
The Players:
Parties, politicians, the King
The Weapons:
UDI
155

Historical remarks
Sources
Formatting

would like if some Spaniars and/or Catalans help with the historical remarks

 

[ClosingADoor]

France is the most repressive one LOL. ask Bretons and Occitan how they feel about their language not be recognized by Paris.

French is the official language, but the people are free to teach others next to it.

Some of these regions in Europe have a history of oppression of course, but in the modern day I don't really see much issues at the moment with it all.

 

[Acidote]

would like if some Spaniars and/or Catalans help with the historical remarks

Considering what I've seen in this thread, I don't think this is a good idea. Because of both "sides". I think it would be better if you just did what you could as an outsider.

 

[trembli0s]

Is someone working on a new OT?

I have done this,



Tried to make it as impartial as possible

TO DO:
The Game: Current Spanish Constitution
The Players:
Parties, politicians, the King
The Weapons:
UDI
155

Historical remarks
Sources
Formatting

would like if some Spaniars and/or Catalans help with the historical remarks

Looks good to me, I would add quotes from the EU and other European leaders to show there also isn't much support at an international level for the move.

 

[Theonik]

French is the official language, but the people are free to teach others next to it.

Some of these regions in Europe have a history of oppression of course, but in the modern day I don't really see much issues at the moment with it all.

The issue is lack of recognition by the public education system that refuses to teach these local dialects. Compare to what Wales does for example, where they teach Welsh alongside English in school. Welsh is actually widely spoken.

 

[Elfotografoalocado]

French is the official language, but the people are free to teach others next to it.

Some of these regions in Europe have a history of oppression of course, but in the modern day I don't really see much issues at the moment with it all.

The opression has been done before, and once the identity is lost no more opression is needed. In the case of France, it's been a more stable democracy, so I imagine it was less painful.
In a legal aspect, we have it mostly good in Spain, the problem is PP, its supporters and the Francois inheritance of the whole thing. PP is not to be trusted, because they still believe in "una grande y libre". And they manage to somehow cling onto power.

 

[KingSnake]

Is someone working on a new OT?

I have done this,



Tried to make it as impartial as possible

TO DO:
The Game: Current Spanish Constitution
The Players:
Parties, politicians, the King
The Weapons:
UDI
155

Historical remarks
Sources
Formatting

would like if some Spaniars and/or Catalans help with the historical remarks

Where from is this: "With a turnout of 48%" sourced?

I see 42% on BBC.

 

[turmoil]

New thread:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=250888190#post250888190

Where from is this: "With a turnout of 48%" sourced?

I think that that is what the catalan government said? Will look for it

 

[Acidote]

New thread:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=250888190#post250888190



I think that that is what the catalan government said? Will look for it

42,34% according to their speaker Jordi Turull.

 

[deathkiller]

Where from is this: "With a turnout of 48%" sourced?

I see 42% on BBC.

I think they estimated 48% if you include confiscated votes.

 

[turmoil]

Corrected turnout, shall we move the discussion over there?

 

[MrToast]

Is this likely to lead to violence or chaos for the next few weeks in Barcelona if this attempted independence happens?

I'm going there in the next 3 weeks for a cruise, but of course that depends on whats happening there, any insight on what's likely to happen within 3 weeks? Will it settle down or escalate?

 

[veryslowhand]

Look out for the videos of the vote counting, amateur is too generous to describe it.

 

[santi_yo]

Kicking minorities in the balls or out of the country since 1492.

Remember when Isabel II betrayed spanish jews and kikcked them out of Spain?

Castile ended up as the Big Dog at the end while the rest of the former smaller kingdoms and regions ended up subjugated to Castile as their overlords.

Absolutionists, Fascists and Conservatives have made that obvious

Oh, sure. I misread that.

 

[KingSnake]

Let's move the discussion to the other thread.

 

[Funky Papa]

Please continue the conversation at the new thread.