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[curi0usBystander]

2015 elections. Soberanist parties favouring a UDI are marked in red:

I think you should exclude unio from there, they run alone because they were against the whole independence idea.

 

[Walshicus]

I'm incredibly bothered by the fact that separatists keep making this a Spain vs Catalonia issue, when it's only the separatist half of the Catalonian population the one pushing for the UDI. The other half wants none of it.

The way separatists keep ignoring, otherizing and downplaying half of the electorate is absurd. You cannot talk about dialogue when you are openly disregarding the other half of the people that is suppossed to live with you.

This is going to make cohabitation incredibly difficult. All for posturing.

The overwhelming majority of Catalans wanted to be able to settle the matter democratically, and Spain won't "permit" that. That's the schism. It's clearly a Catalonia vs Spain issue first and foremost.

-Meme snipped-
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7TY8yDUwAEPol-.jpg

I don't think *you* know what it means if you don't think it fits.

 

[KingSnake]

that's not a Referendum.

SNP has the majority of the seats in Scotland and failed to win their Referendum. Majority in the legislature does not mean automatic Declaration of Independence.

Legislative elections are apples and oranges to a Referendum on Independence.

The main topic of the last elections was independence though.

 

[Psyrgery ES]

Do we have receipts on this other "half" of the Catalonian population? The only data we have is the referendum, and thanks to PP´s fascists tactics we can not count it as reliable.

I see a lot of otherization and toxic antagonization of the Catalonian identity coming from Spaniards politicians and pundits, specially El País (de Franco). Which is rich since they are the ones more obsessed with the unity of Spain.

The results of the last catalan elections in 2015 showed a 48% of independentist vote which were around 2 million people. And trust me the independentist parties pushed A LOT for massive participation.

The results of the last failed referendum showed a similar number (around 2.044.000 people). Some taped conversations between members of the Generalitat proved that they would make up the number of voters no matter what the participation would end up being. That is, if they got around 2 million votes they would claim that 1 million got lost due to Spain's tampering with the referendum.

In the end the Generalitat claimed that 770.000 votes got lost because of the Police seizing the ballots, which adds up with the number they made up.

That is, 2.220.000 votes plus those 770.000 make those 3 millions the Generalitat had planned.

 

[Mael]

On the bright side Catalan still has it better than occitan

the hard-line confrontational approach both from the Conservative PP in Madrid and the Anarchist Separatist Puigedemont created a dual Extremist head-to-head that leads to zero results.

This has been a Spain problem for over 150 years in modern history. Hard heads on the extremes who can't talk to each other.


this sad fact is so true but sill sad for the Occitan. Catalan are spoiled compared to the Occitan

By Occitan, you mean the south part of France that hasn't been anything but a part of France since before this millenia?

 

[correojon]

that's not a Referendum.

SNP has the majority of the seats in Scotland and failed to win their Referendum. Majority in the legislature does not mean automatic Declaration of Independence.

Legislative elections are apples and oranges to a Referendum on Independence.

The nationalists did everything on their hands to advertise the elections as an independence Referendum, it's only after they lost that they dropped this discourse and don't mention it now.

 

[Funky Papa]

I think you should exclude unio from there, they run alone because they were against the whole independence idea.

Total brainfart. I initially marked in red non separatist parties but realised that I was making a huge mess with Paint, so I went with marking separatist parties instead and forgot to delete Unió.

 

[Psyrgery ES]

I don't think *you* know what it means if you don't think it fits.

Calling the spanish democracy "a regime" is beyond stupid no matter what your political ideologies are.

 

[Ensirius]

I wasn't aware the Spanish Constitution demands that riot police beat up kids and old women.

Then again Franco was only 40 years ago, so maybe it does.

I absolutely agree things should have turned out differently that day.
It does however, not allow one territory to leave on its own.

Yeah, using the police forces to repress democracy is quite fascists if you ask me. There were other solutions, but I guess you cant expect much more from The Franco Legacy Party.

See, throwing around Franco and Fascism is not the best way to move forward on this issue.
Although I agree there are better ways of handling this.

 

[joanot]

The spanish government has a tendency to trying to suppress catalonoias culture.

Cmon I cant stand PP & Im pro-indepence but that is simply not true at all.

 

[gutter_trash]

The main topic of the last elections was independence though.

still, people can vote for a party to apply political pressure, not necessarily meaning they want outright independence

 

[tzare]

I´m going to Madrid and Barcelona next week, how dead am I?

Just ask for bocadillo de calamares in Madrid and pa amb tomàquet in Barcelona and you are safe. But the other way round.....

 

[Psyrgery ES]

Just ask for bocadillo de calamares in Madrid and pa amb tomàquet in Barcelona and you are safe. But the other way round.....

And ask for allioli sauce if you are having grilled meat!

Only if you dare of course 😁

 

[sibarraz]

Faacists has not been the only regime to throw the police against its own citizens

 

[RocknRola]

Well, I'm sure this will end well... I mean it's not that it's something that the Spanish government can't do (they can, it's part of the constitution) but I feel this will only escalate things in a more negative way....

 

[Mael]

still, people can vote for a party to apply political pressure, not necessarily meaning they want outright independence

Isn't that the primary reason why the party in power is usually never doing that well in local/other elections afterward?

Faacists has not been the only regime to throw the police against its own citizens

You don't say
We've got so many examples to choose here though, from the communists to democracies with theocracies in between.
It's literally one constant you can find everywhere.

 

[The Living Tribunal]

I don't think *you* know what it means if you don't think it fits.

Are you really that naive or are you being purposely obtuse?

No. It doesn't fit, and is beyond ridiculous.

 

[Ferr986]

And ask for allioli sauce if you are having grilled meat!

Only if you dare of course 😁

This. Allioli is the GOAT.

 

[BocoDragon]

Are you really that naive or are you being purposely obtuse?

No. It doesn't fit, and is beyond ridiculous.

Regime just means the current ruling government group, dude :/

 

[Walshicus]

Are you really that naive or are you being purposely obtuse?

No. It doesn't fit, and is beyond ridiculous.

A government formed of a bunch of Franco remnant thugs who have demonstrated their preference for violence over dialogue and the 'state' over people.

No, I'm just fine with that term.

 

[KingSnake]

Regime just means the current ruling government group, dude :/

It is used mostly with negative connotation.

While the word régime originates as a synonym for any form of government, modern usage often gives the term a negative connotation, implying an authoritarian government or dictatorship. Webster's definition states that the word régime refers simply to a form of government, while Oxford English Dictionary defines regime as "a government, especially an authoritarian one".

 

[Westbahnhof]

It is used mostly with negative connotation.

Yeah, of you look up news using the word "regime", it paints a clear picture.

 

[The Living Tribunal]

Regime just means the current ruling government group, dude :/

A quick search of the word will prove you wrong.

A government formed of a bunch of Franco remnant thugs who have demonstrated their preference for violence over dialogue and the 'state' over people.

No, I'm just fine with that term.

You mean the current government? The one voted by the spanish people through a democratically held election, recognized by the congress of deputies and the senate?

That one?

Purposely obtuse it is, then.

 

[TimmmV]

Changing social residence is one thing and leaving is another.
It is not a good thing of course, but it has limited effects.
We can also point that Spanish economy is also feeling the effects of the conflict, less growth, higher interests in foreign markets for public debt....

Even the boicot to catalan products, another interesting way to convince is that we are stronger together, is having it's impact in other regions since economy is interconnected and Tarradellas dir example buys from Extremadura's farms to name one example.

It's amazing that on the one hand you are aware that the economy is interconnected, but on the other think that Independence would be anything other than a financial disaster for Catalonia (and Spain)

The mental gymnastics you are performing in this thread are ridiculous

 

[And_Gignac]

I absolutely agree things should have turned out differently that day.
It does however, not allow one territory to leave on its own.



See, throwing around Franco and Fascism is not the best way to move forward on this issue.
Although I agree there are better ways of handling this.

I mean, thats what the PP is. Ideologically they were formed around franquismo. And Rajoy has been acting as such during this crisis.

 

[megateto]

For fucks sake, as much as I hate the dumbass fuck we have as president and those around him, to say that things are going just like in Franco's time is stupid and ignorant. In those times you had to be very careful about things like what you talked and who you talked too (well, there we have the ley mordaza :/ which is pretty fascist), but I find it utterly insulting for the those who ran before the police, risking their lifes or freedom.

Heck, I have already said that sending riot police was a huge mistake during voting day, but as things have calmed down, it seems that fake news is no longer exclusive of American media at least according to The Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/08/catalonia-demo-injuries-fact-checking

Please, I don't want to be seen as an excuse giver, nobody should have been hurt that day, I just want to add that piece of information from a media outlet which is impartial (or that's the idea I have). When I read that kind of information from Spanish press I felt like I couldn't trust it, but coming from The Guardian... If it's been debunked, please, feel free to correct me.

 

[Mik2121]

I don't think *you* know what it means if you don't think it fits.

Yeah, no. You are the one who definitely doesn't understand what regime means.
If you think Spain is a regime, you are lacking some serious knowledge.

 

[Kapsama]

So I don't get why opponents of Catalan independence, who seem to be so sure that most Catalans don't even want independence, are so vigorously opposed to a open and fair referendum to settle the matter.

 

[deathkiller]

So I don't get why opponents of Catalan independence, who seem to be so sure that most Catalans don't even want independence, are so vigorously opposed to a open and fair referendum to settle the matter.

Well, some will say, "We can do an Spain wide referendum any time you want". For those who have an Spanish National Identity carving out territory of their nation is unacceptable. You can see a similar situation in Irak with the kurds, Irak didn't even exist that long ago and now you have people who see it as their indivisible nation.

I am in favour of regional wide referendums being legal but requiring 2/3 of the regional parliament voting in favor of independence (two times like in major constitutional reforms). Such requirement might not be "fair" but would guarantee that the new state is mostly cohesive around the idea of being independent.

 

[Kapsama]

You can see a similar situation in Irak with the kurds, Irak didn't even exist that long ago and now you have people who see it at their indivisible nation.

I think that's a perfect illustration actually that all this indivisible nation stuff is bs no matter what the country. It's all about power at the end of the day and the common rube buys into nationalistic/patriotic nonsense.

Ethnic self determination is a right that no one should be denied.

 

[Walshicus]

Yeah, no. You are the one who definitely doesn't understand what regime means.
If you think Spain is a regime, you are lacking some serious knowledge.

It takes seconds to look up the definition of a word. You have no excuse.

Spoiler

I'm both technically correct (the best kind) in using it, and cognisant of the emotive aspect. Spanish government is made up of thugs I see no need to legitimise.

 

[K' Dash]

Just ask for bocadillo de calamares in Madrid and pa amb tomàquet in Barcelona and you are safe. But the other way round.....

Will do.

Thanks!

 

[TimmmV]

I think that's a perfect illustration actually that all this indivisible nation stuff is bs no matter what the country. It's all about power at the end of the day and the common rube buys into nationalistic/patriotic nonsense.

Ethnic self determination is a right that no one should be denied.

Except plenty of this is about Catalan nationalism, not recognition as an ethnic group (which extends beyond Catalonia), and also totally ignores the sizeable portion of the population in Catalonia who identify as Spanish

I am in favour of regional wide referendums being legal but requiring 2/3 of the regional parliament voting in favour of independence (two times like in mayor constitutional reforms). Such requirement might not be "fair" but would guarantee that the new state is mostly cohesive around the idea of being independent.

Agreed - allowing such huge and effectively permanent decisions be decided by a slim majority that could be influenced by any number of small things is a terrible idea

See also: Brexit

 

[curi0usBystander]

So the Spanish government and the PSOE have decided that with the application of the 155 regional election will be called in January.

I'm not entierly sure that I'd solve anything tho.

 

[Souldriver]

I mean, I'm already using a bit of a double standard because I feel that the Spanish government should be the moderate and calming actor, while Catalonia does its provoking. ...so I think this action of Spain, just like the police force during the voting, is not the right thing to do.

But what do I know, the Spanish government is maybe using all the leverage they got, and there's an argument to make for it. I'm no expert on the situation. I just fear this is adding fuel to the fire, resulting in more anger, hostility and perhaps violence.

 

[hans_castorp]

Rajoy is a moron but sooner or later the 155 was going to hit.

Problem is that both bands are full of nutjobs. Now you have Toni Albà advocating for arresting Prosecutors "once" the repblic is proclaimed and using them in a eventual prisoner exchange. wtf?!


Puigdemont, Rajoy and all parties should sit in a table and try to find a way to fix this mess.
Just try to arrange a fuck** meeting, Even if its just symbolic.

 

[faridmon]

Man, Spain is trying to just escalate the division further. Not good idea. Isn't there a diplomatic way of solving this?

Madrid shows it's fascist history has never left.

Your comment is borderline disgusting

 

[Westbahnhof]

Your comment is borderline disgusting

HarryHengst is a full blown communist, and like with many people close to one of the three ends of the political spectrum, he tends to exaggerate, in my opinion.
I would, however, say that there's a kernel of truth in there.
Certain Madrid stances and methods are a bit.. Uncomfortable, as far as I can tell.

 

[Night Terror]

Just ask for bocadillo de calamares in Madrid and pa amb tomàquet in Barcelona and you are safe. But the other way round.....

And ask for allioli sauce if you are having grilled meat!

Only if you dare of course 😁

Can we please be always like this?

 

[marcbret87]

HarryHengst is a full blown communist, and like with many people close to one of the three ends of the political spectrum, he tends to exaggerate, in my opinion.
I would, however, say that there's a kernel of truth in there.
Certain Madrid stances and methods are a bit.. Uncomfortable, as far as I can tell.

I'd like to see how France or the USA would react to a region/state in their territory doing the same as Catalonia is doing. I suspect they would make the response that Madrid has given so far look like a pat in the back. And I doubt many people would accuse them of fascism.

 

[psyfi]

that's not how autonomy works

 

[Mael]

I'd like to see how France or the USA would react to a region/state in their territory doing the same as Catalonia is doing. I suspect they would make the response that Madrid has given so far look like a pat in the back. And I doubt many people would accuse them of fascism.

French guy here, we would probably send in the army and have every person on the government payroll that can got to the media go on tv calling the separatists terrorists.
All legitimacy and power comes from the central power anyway in France's power structure anyway.
That's 1 constant since when we had kings. The country is profoundly Jacobinist at heart.

 

[marcbret87]

French guy here, we would probably send in the army and have every person on the government payroll that can got to the media go on tv calling the separatists terrorists.
All legitimacy and power comes from the central power anyway in France's power structure anyway.
That's 1 constant since when we had kings. The country is profoundly Jacobinist at heart.

Actually, I am a Catalan but I live in France, so yeah, my impression was pretty much what you just described. There is no way in France they would allow something like that to get this far.