No, its more like Los Angeles wants to become a foreign nation.
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Spain to suspend Catalonia's autonomy
- Thread starter Majine
- Start date
No, its more like Los Angeles wants to become a foreign nation.
The Living Tribunal
Member
Oh but it exists, and catalonian nationalists chose to walk over it. The catalonian regional government played a dangerous (and stupid) game, and it was about time the central government stepped in.
More like if Texas said "hey should we leave the union? We've always felt separate and Texasy anyway let's have a vote!" And Washington DC said "Nope you can't have a vote it's illegal." So they try have the vote anyway, find out most Texans want to leave; but the US sends enforcers to keep texans from the polls. And then the federal government assumed control of the things the Texas government was in charge of.
Spain doesn't have a federal system though. Even if in practice we're not that far off.
That's factually false.
That's true; and important to bare in mind. But it's the simplest comparable explanation in American terms I think.
About Texas? In which case it was just a hypothetical. About Catalonia, though, did I get it wrong or didn't leave win?
ClosingADoor
Member
"Win" with a referendum every international organisation says can not be trusted. And even if we take the results, it is less that 50% of people wanting to leave. People who don't want to be independent had zero reason to show up, since it wasn't recognized by Spain anyway.
2,044,038 out of 5,313,564 registered voters voted Yes. This ignoring how the referendum was organised and how reliable the results are.
So we're assuming all the people who didn't/couldn't vote were no voters? Seems like a lot of problems that could've been avoided if Spain authorised the thing in the first place. I mean the results are vague and debatable in a way they wouldn't be in a legitimate referendum.
ClosingADoor
Member
We are assuming we can make no assumptions, since we don't know what they would have voted. And we don't know if all the votes are even correct. So the sentiment that the majority wants independence is a dangerous one without much evidence.
I'm not assuming anything. I stated a fact: 2,044,038 out of 5,313,564 registered voters voted Yes
There's barely any legitimacy for a drastic measure like declaring independence from that.
Also when it comes to referendums, opposed to normal elections, the boycott is a valid option.
Even assuming them as "I don't know/I don't care", the correct statement would be "the majority of Catalans don't care about independence".
Okay, these are good points. But it should at least be clear there's a strong desire for independence even if it's not a majority right? Less independence seems like the wrong direction.
considering the difficulties many people had to vote , the only thing we can say about the referendum is that the only way to really know if a majority exists or not is to hold a legal one with all warranties.
The reasons behind not allowing it are the key here.Interesting thing is that the ones against independence always say that independentists aren't majority , but then fail to deliver a proper way to actually provide an answer . Just especulation.
But the less independence part is a temporary measure as an answer to the government of Catalonia breaking the law (ignoring the whole debate about what's right or wrong about the law that go on forever). We don't even know yet to what extend it will be applied. Worst that could happen would be new regional elections in some months as far as I understand.
Randomizer123454444
Member
Question I keep asking and not receiving any answer to is, what do Catalonians benefit from this beyond "It's my right" -perspective? Can someone give concrete examples of how Catalonian lives would improve if they could get their own rule? How is belonging to Spain hindering Catalonian people?
Because if it's only "It's my right", then only meaning of referendum was being a giant middle finger and I'm not sure I support that line of thinking.
The spanish government has a tendency to trying to suppress catalonoias culture.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Makes you wonder how gaf responded to the "illegal" referendum by Iraqi Kurds and how they would to one such held in Turkey.
why should we answer that? why should be forced to stay? Does it really matter? Be it the money, the language, other reasons, a mix of many small ones...... all of them are personal and valid (even if many could be wrong).
we don't feel we belong to Spain, and we feel we want to decide for ourselves, and hopefully improve in general.
Why don't you provide some reasons why should we stay? Why do we have to justify ourselves all the time?
Catalonia has been part of Spain for several hundreds of years.
Unity is stronger in the long term then micro states, of course how Spain handled it makes the division larger.
Nationalism is never good, what if Barcelona wants to break free from Catalonia, would that be good? When does it end?
Part of EU is a good thing, which Catalonia will not be in the forseable future if independent.
This is pretty much how independence has worked in the past. Either an area which remains distinctly separate because of recent historical past,or demographic change and or cultural change makes people feel they would be better self represented gets together and declares independence. Seldom has any act of independence been truly been allowed. The issue is as democratic countries, can you repress free assembly or can you unilaterally ask for independence without the entirety of all citizens. Can Catalonia become independent if the people in the region want it in a majority? Historically right now, 4 major cultural and religious groups with millions of people and their own language and cuisine and even their own country or empire in the recent past have been declined statehood. Sikhs in India who lost their land first to Pakistan and then was further divided into 3 states soon after eventually culminated in an independence movement that lead to an attack on their holiest site and the assassination of the Indian Prime Minister and genocide like reprisal etc. The Tibetans who were forced to flee when communist China through the guise of wanting to capture as much land it could used some idea of Tibet being responsible to the Emperor of China centuries ago but it was largely self governing for centuries itself, while China was still going through dynasties. Today the government of Tibet and millions of Tibetans are living in exile in North India and places like Nepal or Bhutan. And also the Kurds. Spread over various countries like Iraq, Turkey, Syria,Iran. They number over 40 million without statehood yet have long wanted their own independent state. Unlike the others, there wasn't any real Kurdish state recently that was taken over or subjugated but they are a people wanting free exercise of their future having long been terrorized, killed, or brutalized by other groups. Then we come to the Palestinians. They enjoyed largely statehood as the British Mandate of Palestine before what we consider the pseduo State of Palestine. They are now reduced to a small strip of land called the Gaza Strip and an increasingly small West Bank which has been cut off and isolated from outside and has seen Israeli settlements in lucrative areas inside. There is no ability to form a nation state if settlements and land stay as they are today. Effectively there is no State of Palestine. Palestinians are either second class citizens of Israel or largely stateless internationally being blockaded in Gaza with few supplies or controlled in the West Bank. All of these groups number in the millions without statehood. They have distinct either religions,languages,cuisines, cultures, and yet are without any statehood.
and? we have also have had our own culture for ages. There are countries like Iceland that have the population of a midsized city. It just depends on what people want. That is the key,
For example if vall d'Aran wants to split from Catalonia it has to be allowed.
Unity is only valid if done by mutual agreement. When a part is forced that is a farce.
Nationalism is no good? so here there are 2 nationalisms involved. Not just one. Unless you consider one is good and the other is bad.
Part of EU is a good thing? Well, maybe some poeple in Greece for example, or UK would disagree.
Randomizer123454444
Member
That's a reasoning I can respect, but if Catalonia wants support concrete examples need to be given. Otherwise it's just word vs word.
Because you don't get to disagree with the 80% of the vote just because you feel like it. Law is law, and ignoring it should have a reasoning behind it beyond "I don't want to".
For example, if there is suppression of Catalonian culture, that is a valid line of reasoning that could get wider support. You should go with that, instead of "Because I say so".
Because if you don't, you wouldn't be any different from a common criminal. They don't get to ignore laws just because they want to.
This is the kind of irrational nationalism that only hurts people in the end. It might not be you who's going to be hurt though so why should you care. That's correct in your own logic.
ClosingADoor
Member
Because when you want something like this, it is useful the have allies. And you get allies by convincing them that you have good reasons to become independent. If you declare independence and nobody recognizes you, that is a major problem.
Touché.
Got it.
Interesting.
Crazy.
Well thank you for the contextualization, I hope it helps other people understand too.
Nationalism is silly and never good, doesn't matter if it is Spain, Catalonian or Swedish.
We need to work together in the world with more unity.
Yes, I firmly believe part of EU is a good thing, can it improve? Yes, absolutley.
And one problem you have is that you go against your own law and constitution, sure, it is made in a bad way that you can't get independence, but Catalonia agreeded to the terms. The independent movement should work through legal channels and politicians to make change so it would be possible to have a real referendrum.
And, currently, no one would recognize your independence, that would be a very bad situation to be in... maybe Russia would.
I mean, we don't get up one morning and think, hey we want to split from spain. Right?
we have been asking for a number of things for a long time. From economics, to languange, culture etc...
We have also asked to do within the law, for +10 years.We even had a legal referendum lol.
Yet ,since we are in a country that doesn't seem to want to listen to us for a number of reasons, and a huge part of it does not seem to like us very much, every proposal we offer gets ignored. . Not to mention that some parties seem to want to cut our autonomy even further, instead.
So we aren't comfortable and have a limited patience as every human being.
So, we have reasons, have been explained a number of times. Maybe people that see this as news may ask what has happened, fair, but with the rest of spain we have explained it a lot of times. Always the same answer.
Btw, since i define myself as independentist, it would be nice to know a bit about who i am going to answer , many forum members, since it is not the same talking to someone from Spain, someone from Catalonia or someone from Eu or other parts of the world.
i am 45 and i didn't vote that constitution. So i doubt it has any real value . Laws are changed everyday , the Consitution should evolve. And btw, it has been 'stealthly' changed not too long ago when it was in the goverment interest. So , yes law doesn' equal to being fair.
And , were are you from? As i said, we have worked through legal channels for years now. YEARS. Spain hasn't moved at all since.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
Right that's why in Catalonia there's fines for using Spanish.
So oppressed they're allowed to fine you for not using Catalan.
Stop reading El Pais
Greece leaving the EU wasn't being debated - they were talking about whether to leave the Euro. These are completely different things.
And I wouldn't be pointing to the UK as a successful example at the moment - go and read some posts in the Brexit thread if you want an idea of how big a mess that all is
don't tell lies.
The law says that catalan has to be used, not that spanish can't be used , for locals and shops and things like that. However that law is barely used. You can check google maps and turn to street view to see how in any catalan town or city there are thousands of shops with their names and activity in spanish.
It is all tied to EU. The Euro, being part of it. The thing many seem to paint EU as the holy grail and it is not the end of the world. Brexit will have consequences, on both sides, but time will tell if that was a good desicion or it wasn't. A bit early to draw conclusions, i the worst times are usually just after the split.
And i don't look it as a success or not, but as people wanting to stay or leave the EU.
Any recommendations in specific?
It's not like they care for economic facts either. Catalonia has lost somewhere around 10% and 25% of their GDP since the referendum due to companies moving their headquarters outside Catalonia. That's even before Catalonia taking any more drastic actions.
Maybe the pressure isn't so big hence they not moving in the directions you want? There are other regions in Spain as well that want independence but it then does seem that there isn't enough intrest for it.
And with:
you have lived your entire life in Spain, and so has all other people in Catalonia, so Catalonian culture doesn't have any real value then?
ClosingADoor
Member
Is the stuff in the article correct, because this sounds highly troubling: https://www.economist.com/news/euro...king-down-businesses-communicate-only-spanish
When even your own court says a law is stupid, but you plan to ignore that ruling. Did they go through with this?
Eurozone != EU.
And really, time will tell with Brexit? Too early to draw conclusions? This is just being delusional. I guess Trump can turn out to be a pretty good President after all, time will tell.
one of them being Euskadi and the have a better deal with the rest of the country.
I asked you before, where are you from? Catalonian culture, is in permanent danger by being the minority, since we are part of a bigger country that uses mainly spanish. only a fraction of the media we can reach, TV, papers, mags, cinema is in catalan for example, so daily life is difficult in that sense to preserve our language. That is a slow steady erosion.
That is an example. I think that is for another topic though.
yes it is early. Unless the brexit was a short term strategy. In fact it still under negotiations. UK will be fine after adjusting to the new scenario.
Psyrgery ES
Member
There's a lot of reports of fines for only using spanish in your business.
Also, the Generalitat used to send notices in both spanish and catalan, but stopped doing so about 20 years ago.
Also, traffic signs are mostly written in catalan nowadays.
Sweden, as it says in my profile.
But how can you say your constitution don't have any real value while your culture has? I belive both are important, but declaring independence due to your regional culture being slowly eroded is not, in my oppinion, a valid reason, you are all spanish, should embrace that culture more as I see it. Also, isn't the reason it eroding away more to do with no intrest then central goverment being fascist about it?
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
Standard seccecionist attitude.
Signage in Spanish is punishable with fines and the law is applied.
I repeat Catalan culture is so oppressed they're allowed to fine people for using Spanish.
Recently a furniture shop owner I know got fined because this law. It's not El Pais, it's the reality of Catalonia where people cry repression when they mercilessly wield the law to oppress.
Which is why there are, in fact, tools dedicated to changing it. Which Catalonia decided to bypass instead of using them.
Can someone point the develoment of GBs economy since just voting to leave to this guy?
Stop lying
Constitution is a law, and like all laws must evolve to new times and needs. It is from 78, just after Franco so it has many inputs from those times. For example UK doesn't have a constitution, so it is just a tool that needs to serve and make comfortable all people. Not the only thing that matters.
And i just gave you an example, since someone asked, of one of the reasons, there are many, that is why i don't think it is worth talking about it in this context. This may end like console exclusivity list wars.
For me it is very important, much more than other topics, we can discuss it if you want, but it is just an example.
I do not feel Spanish for a number of reasons. I could if Spain was different. And don't think anybody has the right to tell me how should i feel.
I know thing are not fantastic right now. How about letting the dust settle and talk about it in a few years. I did not say that it would be easy, i said that UK will be fine in the future.
Orniletter
Banned
This is the type of mentally lazy and disingenius waffling and plain ignorance I would expect from someone who supports independance.
The UK's economy is on a horrible trajectory since the referendum.
"Who knows ? I've got a good feeling ! It's going to be fine, I tell you. They just have to adapt." Christ on a bike.
So why did you bypass the law and thought you are above the law?
And I respect how you feel, but I belive it is the wrong way of moving forward.
We have tried to do it within the rules. This started years ago. Some may don't know, some try to ignore it intentionally. But we have.
The problem is when the one that has the power uses those rules just in one direction
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