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Catalan Independence Referendum(1-O) - The aftermath

There's clearly a problem in Catalonia, that won't get solved by more repression.

It only will be resolved by a vote, and the longer it takes for an agreed referendum to take place, the higher the chances of the pro-independence side to win. That's just the way it is.

In my opinion, now there's roughly 40-40, with 20% undecided. You can say roughly 50-50, which is not enough to achieve independence at this point in time. That will come maybe in 1-2 generations, when and if the support is more like 60-70%

But here and now the only way out of this stalemate is to reach an agreement regarding some changes that can appease the majority of the Catalans and which with the majority of the Spanish can live, and put it to a vote. Otherwise we'll reach that 60-70% of support sooner than anyone can predict now
Let's say they lose the vote now. What then? They are back to it in a few years, because the people wanting independence won't suddenly go: well, that's that, we're never going to do this again. The next economic setback will have everyone wanting independence again.

While the people who are in favor of staying can't do a new referendum for joining Spain again every few years.
 

Thorrgal

Member
Let's say they lose the vote now. What then? They are back to it in a few years, because the people wanting independence won't suddenly go: well, that's that, we're never going to do this again. The next economic setback will have everyone wanting independence again.

While the people who are in favor of staying can't do a new referendum for joining Spain again every few years.

So according to you those are the reasons there should never be a referendum of independence in Catalonia, and I surmise, anywhere else in the world? Those unavoidable problems didn't stop Scotland and the UK to agree on one, though. As it shouldn't.

But of course there's mechanisms to address those issues. You can state on the agreement a deadline before which you could not try to make a referendum again

You can also plan another referendum, say 5 years after declaring independence, to make the decision final.

Of course once you achieve independence very rarely you want to go back to a state of "dependence". Montenegro, for example, won his independence by 0'5% in 2006 and few years later the support for independence grew to 90%+

You can go ask people from Montenegro now, but you already know what would they say. Same goes for Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Slovenja...

But if those are the issues you have, let's talk about it and reach an agreement. I'm sure we can find a solution.

Edit: Also, if after a few years the majority of people in Catalonia and the Catalonian government, voted by those people, wanted to join Spain again, we would of course have a vote to do so
 

megateto

Member
I think this article is a must read in this thread for all non Spaniard gaffers.

In Francoland

It happened to me on the last night of September in Heidelberg, but it has also happened quite frequently in other cities in Europe and the United States, and even here in Spain, when talking with foreign journalists. At various points throughout different eras, I have been forced to explain patiently, and with as much clarity as possible for educational purposes, that my country is a democracy, while undoubtedly flawed it is not any more seriously flawed when compared to similar countries. I have gone to great lengths to name dates, mention laws and changes, and establish useful comparisons. In New York, I had to remind people, who were full of democratic ideals and condescension, of the fact that my country, unlike theirs, does not accept the death penalty, sending minors to prison to serve life sentences, or torturing inmates in secret jails.

Sometimes outside Spain, one is forced to teach a history or geography lesson. Until not too long ago, a Spanish citizen had to explain that the Basque Country is not even remotely like Kurdistan, Palestine, or the Nicaraguan jungle where Sandinistas used to protest Somoza the dictator, all in spite of being aware that the odds were that he wouldn’t be listened to. We had to explain that the Basque Country is among the most advanced territories in Europe, with one of the highest standards of living, and that it has a degree of self-government and fiscal sovereignty considerably higher than any state or federal region in the world. The answer used to be, at best, a polite but skeptical smile.

A great deal of educated opinions, both in Europe and the United States, and even more so among the academic and journalistic elites, would rather hold a bleak view of Spain, maintain a lazy attachment to the worst stereotypes, particularly about the legacy of the dictatorship, as well as a bullfight-like propensity to civil war and bloodshed. The cliché is so captivating that is unapologetically held by people who are convinced they really love our country. They want us to be bullfighters, heroic guerrillas, inquisitors, and victims. They love us so much that they hate it when we question the willful blindness upon which they build their love. They love the idea of a rebellious, fascism-fighting Spain so much that they are not ready to accept that fascism ended many years ago. They love what they see as our quaint backwardness so much that they feel insulted if we explain to them how much we have changed in the last 40 years: we don’t attend Mass, women have an active presence in every social sphere, same-sex marriage was accepted with astonishing speed and ease, and we have integrated several million immigrants in just a few years, without outbursts of xenophobia.


The other night in Heidelberg on the eve of the notorious October 1, in the middle of a pleasant dinner with several professors and translators, I had to explain that once again with a forcefulness that helped me overcome my despondency. A German female professor told me that someone from Catalonia had assured her that Spain was still “Francoland.” I asked her, as nicely as I could, how she would feel if someone said to her that Germany was still Hitlerland. She felt immediately insulted. With as much calm as I could manage and in an educational tone, I clarified what no citizen from another democratic country in Europe has ever been forced to clarify: that Spain is a democracy, as worthy and as flawed as Germany and as far away from totalitarianism; even more so, if we look at the latest election results achieved by the far right. If we are still in Francoland, as her Catalan informer said, how is it possible for Catalonia to have its own educational system, parliament, police force, public television and public radio, and an international institute for the dissemination of Catalan language and culture? Acknowledging the singularity of Catalonia was a priority for the new Spanish democracy, I told her that the Generalitat, the Catalan regional government, was re-established even before voting on the Constitution. What an odd Francoist country, one that suppress Catalan language and culture so much that it chooses a Catalan language film to represent Spain at the Oscars.

Anybody that has lived or is living outside our country knows about the precariousness of our international presence, the financial strangulation and the political meddling that have so often thwarted the relevance of the Cervantes Institute, the lack of an ambitious, long-term foreign policy, and a national framework agreement that doesn’t change with every change in government. Spanish democracy hasn’t been able to dispel age-old stereotypes. Basque terrorists and their propagandists took good advantage of that for many years, precisely the years when we were at our most vulnerable, when the most murderous gunmen were still being granted asylum in France.


Therefore, the Catalan secessionists have not needed much effort or a sophisticated media campaign to turn international opinion in their favor, the so-called “narrative.” They had succeeded even without the dedicated cooperation of the Interior Ministry, which sent forces from the National Police and the Civil Guard to appear as extras in the bitter spectacle of our discredit. Few things make a foreign correspondent in Spain happier than the opportunity to corroborate our exoticism and our brutality. Even the renowned Jon Lee Anderson, who lives or has lived among us, is deliberately lying, with no qualms he is aware that he is lying and aware of the effect his lies will have, when he writes in The New Yorker that the Civil Guard is a “paramilitary” force.

As a Spanish citizen, with all my fervent Europeanism and my love of travel, I feel hopelessly doomed to melancholy, for a number of reasons. One of them is the discredit the democratic system in my country receives due to ineptitude, corruption and political disloyalty. Add to that the fact that the European and cosmopolitan world where people like me see ourselves and which we have so painstakingly worked to appear to be a part of, always prefer to look down upon us — no matter how carefully we try to explain ourselves or however assiduously we learn languages, so that they can better understand our useless explanations.
 

Oriel

Member
Let's say they lose the vote now. What then? They are back to it in a few years, because the people wanting independence won't suddenly go: well, that's that, we're never going to do this again. The next economic setback will have everyone wanting independence again.

While the people who are in favor of staying can't do a new referendum for joining Spain again every few years.

Do you see Quebec having independence referenda every few years? They had their debate, voted and decided to remain as part of Canada. The issue there is now dead, everyone has moved on. If Spain were to allow Catalans to chance to vote on independence it would in all likelihood be rejected and that debate put to rest.

Rajoy and his far right band of loons fucked up royally.
 

Sygma

Member
So, Im actually going in Salou from monday 23 to thursday 26. Guess I should cancel ? not too keen being in the middle of a probable start of a civil war
 

Thorrgal

Member
A little bit :p more like expressing a bit of concern regarding what could happen. Is it safe to come around or ? in theory I should just stay in barcelona to do the transition between the airport and salou

Just watch out for your wallet and bags if you are in the metro or in the touristic places of Bcn :p
 
A little bit :p more like expressing a bit of concern regarding what could happen. Is it safe to come around or ? in theory I should just stay in barcelona to do the transition between the airport and salou

Honestly, I doubt anything like that will happen.
 

megateto

Member
A must read if you want to have the point of view of the Spanish, of course ;)

Which is not the point of view of the pro-independence Catalans.

So you agree we are still under a fascist regime (which is the whole point of the piece)? Cool.

Read thoroughly the article and point out where the author is wrong, if you don't mind.
 
So according to you those are the reasons there should never be a referendum of independence in Catalonia, and I surmise, anywhere else in the world? Those unavoidable problems didn't stop Scotland and the UK to agree on one, though. As it shouldn't.

But of course there's mechanisms to address those issues. You can state on the agreement a deadline before which you could not try to make a referendum again

You can also plan another referendum, say 5 years after declaring independence, to make the decision final.

Of course once you achieve independence very rarely you want to go back to a state of "dependence". Montenegro, for example, won his independence by 0'5% in 2006 and few years later the support for independence grew to 90%+

You can go ask people from Montenegro now, but you already know what would they say. Same goes for Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Slovenja...

But if those are the issues you have, let's talk about it and reach an agreement. I'm sure we can find a solution.

Edit: Also, if after a few years the majority of people in Catalonia and the Catalonian government, voted by those people, wanted to join Spain again, we would of course have a vote to do so
Actually, I said earlier in the thread that I think if there is enough support, there should be multiple referenda. One to ask if the people want independence, and pass that with a large majority and turnout. And then after everything is worked out and the deal and impact of it are actually clear, one that asks if this is really what people want. Because this is too large of an issue to do in one go, especially with nonsense like expecting to stay part of the EU or getting Spain to give you complete access to their market again. Working those things out might take up to a decade or so though depending on how they go about it.

Although my preferred option would be to give Catalonia some more autonomy, treat the other regions the same, and continue like that. A break from Spain in these days just seems utterly foolish and mostly based on the economic crash from a few years back and anger with the current government.

I don't think comparisons to the former Soviet Union or Yugoslavia are that valid, since those either just got out of being oppressed for decades or even wars, and Catalonia, while having been oppressed during the Franco era, has not had that for almost 50 years now, and stayed part of Spain back then. Although my knowledge on how that came to pass is limited.

Also, I don't think you can just have a vote to rejoin. That would mean Spain has to agree, again asking them to do something that is not in their interest. Because then you set the precedent of saying: go on your own, and if it fails, you can get back. No country would accept that.
 

Oriel

Member
Also, I don't think you can just have a vote to rejoin. That would mean Spain has to agree, again asking them to do something that is not in their interest. Because then you set the precedent of saying: go on your own, and if it fails, you can get back. No country would accept that.

Name one country where that particular scenario has occured before.
 
Name one country where that particular scenario has occured before.
None, which was my point. Every poll has the issue pretty much split. So while the pro-independence people can continue endlessly with their demand for it, the people who want to stay part of Spain can't reverse that decision later on.
 
Catalonia fucked up with their back alley unofficial referendum.


Scotland and Quebec preceeded legally and officially

Catalonia choosing the "Anarchist" path makes them unlegit and non-credible
 

Thorrgal

Member
So you agree we are still under a fascist regime (which is the whole point of the piece)? Cool.

Read thoroughly the article and point out where the author is wrong, if you don't mind.

Ok. Let's start by agreeing that Franco was a fascist and a dictator.

The author says " A German female professor told me that someone from Catalonia had assured her that Spain was still ”Francoland." I asked her, as nicely as I could, how she would feel if someone said to her that Germany was still Hitlerland. She felt immediately insulted."

Of course she should be, because in Germany the government doesn't fund an Adolf Hitler foundation, right? In Spain they do. Not only that, but there's streets, monuments, squares, etc With the Franco name. You know how many streets are called Adolf Hitler in Germany? Zero. In Spain there's 317 streets called Generalisimo Francisco Franco and 373 José Antonio Primo de Rivera (founder of La Falange, the fascist political party that supported Franco) And hundreds more to other generals and members of the dictatorship.

In Germany there isn't thousands (114.000 is the estimate) of republican soldiers buried in the ditches, waiting for a proper burial still 80 years later. I guess your grandfather didn't fight on the civil war, because for that you should be as old as I am, but mine did.

In Germany they don't have a King that was put ther by Hitler, as we have here. Or his son. The leaders of the police, judiciary and army didn't continue in their posts or rose in the ranks when the Nazis lost, as they did in Spain.

In Germany the police doesn't hit peaceful protesters as they want to vote.

And that's just for starters. If you want I can continue, but I think the writer is missing the point.

People in Catalonia don't believe Spain is a fascist country (because it's not) and that's why they want to be independent. That's just an straw-man argument. They just want to build their own country, and they wanna do it their way.

None, which was my point. Every poll has the issue pretty much split. So while the pro-independence people can continue endlessly with their demand for it, the people who want to stay part of Spain can't reverse that decision later on.

Edit: Ignore this as I address it on the next post
 

Thorrgal

Member
Actually, I said earlier in the thread that I think if there is enough support, there should be multiple referenda. One to ask if the people want independence, and pass that with a large majority and turnout. And then after everything is worked out and the deal and impact of it are actually clear, one that asks if this is really what people want. Because this is too large of an issue to do in one go, especially with nonsense like expecting to stay part of the EU or getting Spain to give you complete access to their market again. Working those things out might take up to a decade or so though depending on how they go about it.

Although my preferred option would be to give Catalonia some more autonomy, treat the other regions the same, and continue like that. A break from Spain in these days just seems utterly foolish and mostly based on the economic crash from a few years back and anger with the current government.

I don't think comparisons to the former Soviet Union or Yugoslavia are that valid, since those either just got out of being oppressed for decades or even wars, and Catalonia, while having been oppressed during the Franco era, has not had that for almost 50 years now, and stayed part of Spain back then. Although my knowledge on how that came to pass is limited.

Also, I don't think you can just have a vote to rejoin. That would mean Spain has to agree, again asking them to do something that is not in their interest. Because then you set the precedent of saying: go on your own, and if it fails, you can get back. No country would accept that.


I think we can agree on most of the things you said. I agree, at least.

A couple of things though:


You can't fix a minimum turnout according the Code of Good Practice on Referendums of the Venice Convention. Reason is a minority would be able to boycott the whole thing.

And another is that if your whole point is that you have a referendum because Spain would not accept Catalonia to come back, is a little disingenuous. I'm sure that if that's the whole issue we can reach an agreement.

Like you, I think the best outcome would be to reach a new deal to remain in Spain. If that offer is made, I would vote no. But if the majority of Catalans vote Yes, I'm prepared to accept the result
 

tzare

Member
I think this article is a must read in this thread for all non Spaniard gaffers.

In Francoland

i won't read the article, i refuse to give clicks to el País.

That said i do not think Spain is a fascist country, or Francoland. And i am independentist.

But some of the Goverment and judges and media are. And they have the power. And many people unfortunately seem to think like them. Not sure how many, but if i had to trust the spanish media, it seems that most of the country seems fine with the way Rajoy and friends are acting.
Instead of trying to talk, every next step is closer to repression. Now some PP members are starting to talk to modify the ?ley de partidos' so independentists are not legal anymore. Interesting way of solving a problem.

And at least the perception from Catalonia is, if a majority of spanish people want to reach an agreeement , they are silent , and by being silent, are tolerating the way spanish goverment is doing.
 
Franco 's win was a consequence of the International Community giving him a Free Pass becsuse Soviet backed Commies were on the other side.

Churchill goes "Franco is still better than Commies".
 

Ferr986

Member
A little bit :p more like expressing a bit of concern regarding what could happen. Is it safe to come around or ? in theory I should just stay in barcelona to do the transition between the airport and salou

lol at Salou the biggest problem are the hundred of drunk guys during the night, more than a civil war.
 

Metal B

Member
People in Catalonia don't believe Spain is a fascist country (because it's not) and that's why they want to be independent. That's just an straw-man argument. They just want to build their own country, and they wanna do it their way.
I read, that there was afford to change all your points in the last years, but the overall growth of right-wing parties in Europa made the transition slower.
So Catalonia just wants to give up, take all the benefits and try to isolate them self from those problems. If they chose that, then isolation from Spain, Europe and the world is what they will get. Also this kind of mind-set is just right-wing ideology from a different point,
 

Thorrgal

Member
Catalonia fucked up with their back alley unofficial referendum.


Scotland and Quebec preceeded legally and officially

Catalonia choosing the "Anarchist" path makes them unlegit and non-credible

Catalonia tried the legal and official way and it got nowhere, with the Constitutional Court making an in-constitutional ruling and hacking the Estatut, an agreement reached between the Catalan and Spanish Parlaments, and voted in a Referendum (snap!) in Catalonia.

The result is that the Estatut that is in place now should be illegal because it was not tha Estatut that was voted in a referendum.

Now, with the "Anarchist" path, that supposedly makes the catalan un-legit and non-credible, is when everyone is paying attention. I really wish there was another way, but it seems it's the only way they left the catalans
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
Catalonia tried the legal and official way and it got nowhere, with the Constitutional Court making an in-constitutional ruling and hacking the Estatut, an agreement reached between the Catalan and Spanish Parlaments, and voted in a Referendum (snap!) in Catalonia.

The result is that the Estatut that is in place now should be illegal because it was not tha Estatut that was voted in a referendum.

Now, with the "Anarchist" path, that supposedly makes the catalan un-legit and non-credible, is when everyone is paying attention. I really wish there was another way, but it seems it's the only way they left the catalans

What do you think the next are in this so called "the only way"?
 

Thorrgal

Member
I read, that there was afford to change all your points in the last years, but the overall growth of right-wing parties in Europa made the transition slower.
So Catalonia just wants to give up, take all the benefits and try to isolate them self from those problems. If they chose that, then isolation from Spain, Europe and the world is what they will get. Also this kind of mind-set is just right-wing ideology from a different point,

I don't think the overall growth of right wing parties in Europa made the Spanish transition slower, no.

"So Catalonia just wants to give up, take all the benefits and try to isolate them self from those problems"
No...as I said Catalans DON'T want to be independent because they think spain is afascist country.

"If they chose that, then isolation from Spain, Europe and the world is what they will get. "
Catalans are NOT chosing isolation. They want to be part of Europe, as an independent country

"Also this kind of mind-set is just right-wing ideology from a different point"
You are free to think that, but in Catalonia the independence movement is a left, far-left movement, not a right-wing movement.
 

Thorrgal

Member
What do you think the next are in this so called "the only way"?

What will happen next, you mean?

I wish they could reach an agreement with Spain regarding an agreed referendum, like Scotland and the UK did. I don't think that will happen, though

They could reach an agreement regarding some of the issues though, and put that to vote. That could happen.

If not the situation will escalate, and the outcome is hard to predict. It will mean bad news for the Catalan, Spanish and European economy though, and I think they're banking on that to prevent it, the EU will "force" this agreement.
 

Jezbollah

Member
There is no chance in hell that an independent Catalonia will get EU membership. So how they want to be part of Europe is up to debate.
 

Thorrgal

Member
One thing you guys have to understand is that the Spanish government is not offering anything as an alternative.

Maybe you feel that they don't have to. That's a respectable stance.

But if they don't offer any way out there is only one way left, and that is forward :/

Edit: And I have to go home, if you guys want we can continue tomorrow ;)
 

Thorrgal

Member
There is no chance in hell that an independent Catalonia will get EU membership. So how they want to be part of Europe is up to debate.

There's only one issue preventing catalonia to enter the EU, and that would be the Spanish VEto. They comply with all the other requirements.

You say there's no chance in Hell spain will lift the veto up....maybe. Maybe not. maybe not now but they wuill in 10, 40 or 100 years we'll see (or noy)

But you don't need an unanimous vote for all the trade, economic, university etc deals, shengen space, so maybe Catalonia would not be a member proper of the EU but would be "as if".

And with this I go ;)
 
What if the actual status quo is the right way to be? Catalonia is a prosperous region with a lot of auto government where people have a good living level, why ruin it.
 
One thing you guys have to understand is that the Spanish government is not offering anything as an alternative.

Maybe you feel that they don't have to. That's a respectable stance.

But if they don't offer any way out there is only one way left, and that is forward :/

Edit: And I have to go home, if you guys want we can continue tomorrow ;)
The problem is, if Spain gives in now, what message does that sent to the other regions? That is why I think the regions should come together and look at how they want to continue governing themselves and what should be left to Madrid and what they should do on their own. Without too much favors and exceptions. Of course this is a very hard thing to do, since there are all kinds of conflicting interests.

There's only one issue preventing catalonia to enter the EU, and that would be the Spanish VEto. They comply with all the other requirements.

You say there's no chance in Hell spain will lift the veto up....maybe. Maybe not. maybe not now but they wuill in 10, 40 or 100 years we'll see (or noy)

But you don't need an unanimous vote for all the trade, economic, university etc deals, shengen space, so maybe Catalonia would not be a member proper of the EU but would be "as if".

And with this I go ;)
Spain is not the only issue here. Other countries also have their own movements they don't want to give any ideas to. France for example.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
If not the situation will escalate, and the outcome is hard to predict. It will mean bad news for the Catalan, Spanish and European economy though, and I think they're banking on that to prevent it, the EU will "force" this agreement.

I think you are making the same judgement mistake that brexiters make. EU won't do anything that will send the signal that what Catalonia does is OK. Because that can bring more damages than the alternative. Also, you're heavily misjudging the economic situation here. How much of its GDP has Catalonia lost in the past 2 weeks? As far as I can tell the exodus of the companies hasn't stopped.

You have the acknowledge that this bluff has failed, Spain has all the cards. Unless you want to go for some kind of civil war.
 

Jezbollah

Member
The problem is, if Spain gives in now, what message does that sent to the other regions? That is why I think the regions should come together and look at how they want to continue governing themselves and what should be left to Madrid and what they should do on their own. Without too much favors and exceptions. Of course this is a very hard thing to do, since there are all kinds of conflicting interests.


Spain is not the only issue here. Other countries also have their own movements they don't want to give any ideas to. France for example.

Yep. You have separatist movements in dozens of countries around Europe. If you set a precedence that unofficial and unlawful independence referendums with very little in legal oversight would not stop membership to the EU then the geopolitical integrity of each country in the union is put into danger.
 

tzare

Member
Yep. You have separatist movements in dozens of countries around Europe. If you set a precedence that unofficial and unlawful independence referendums with very little in legal oversight would not stop membership to the EU then the geopolitical integrity of each country in the union is put into danger.

which is a really sad stance imo.

If a region wants to do a referendum, asking its population, if go one way or the other, not allowing it doesn't seem very democratic to me.
I we just want a normal referendum, i don't think the one we did is enough to declare independence, But it just should be allowed, just like Scotland.
And well, UE, many catalan independists are considering not wanting to be part, due to its 'not our problem' approach.
 

mlclmtckr

Banned
which is a really sad stance imo.

If a region wants to do a referendum, asking its population, if go one way or the other, not allowing it doesn't seem very democratic to me.
I we just want a normal referendum, i don't think the one we did is enough to declare independence, But it just should be allowed, just like Scotland.
And well, UE, many catalan independists are considering not wanting to be part, due to its 'not our problem' approach.

I agree, in principle. But what happens when every rich region decides to leave its parent country? What happens to all of the poor people in those countries who now have even less of an economy or safety net?
 
which is a really sad stance imo.

If a region wants to do a referendum, asking its population, if go one way or the other, not allowing it doesn't seem very democratic to me.
I we just want a normal referendum, i don't think the one we did is enough to declare independence, But it just should be allowed, just like Scotland.
And well, UE, many catalan independists are considering not wanting to be part, due to its 'not our problem' approach.

The EU position is, however, to be expected as some people already remarked here for the various reasons exposed.

I think that what a lot of people are showing (myself included) is actually being finally hit by what's the wall of reality. We all know all of Spain's (Catalonia included) faults, but we still had a "fairy veil" of sorts around the European Union.

A lot of the stuff that's been happening since 2007 is leaving a lot of people displeased, which is exactly why a lot of power seems to start shifting right now across all regions. History teaches us that this has not been the first, nor won't be the last, time this happens though.

The whole world needs a lot of work, to be true.
 

RSB

Banned
I agree, in principle. But what happens when every rich region decides to leave its parent country? What happens to all of the poor people in those countries who now have even less of an economy or safety net?
Those poor people should stop being lazy.

I'm joking of course, although the "we want to stop paying for those lazy andalusians" is something I've heard more than once, unfortunately.

Nationalism is one hell of a drug.
Poison would be more accurate, but yeah...
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
If a region wants to do a referendum, asking its population, if go one way or the other, not allowing it doesn't seem very democratic to me.
I we just want a normal referendum, i don't think the one we did is enough to declare independence, But it just should be allowed, just like Scotland.

I agree that a referendum should be allowed. I don't agree that that should be obtain by running an illegal referendum and threatening with chaos. And neither does EU.

And well, UE, many catalan independists are considering not wanting to be part, due to its 'not our problem' approach.

And this comes from not understanding what EU is and how EU functions. EU can't intervene in the internal affairs of its members. Case in point Poland and Hungary which are running much more undemocratic measures than one day of police violences. Still EU has its hands tied. Funny enough, I can bet that if EU would be able to do what you ask from it, you would have the same issues against EU that you have now against Spain. Plus, blaming EU for your own nationalism is so 2015.
 

tzare

Member
I agree, in principle. But what happens when every rich region decides to leave its parent country? What happens to all of the poor people in those countries who now have even less of an economy or safety net?

I think that while a part of the independence talk is about money, there are more factors involved. It is about our identity, language,right now we are being attacked because of our educational model (inmersó lingüistica) for example. It just hurts. I cannot be in the ssame boat with people that hates our language and feelings.

And all those topics, money, language etc... were adressed by the estatut in 2006, approved in a legal referendum a PSC being the 'President' of Catalunya. That Estatut was slaughtered after a campaign against it from PP .
ANd it is a fun that fact Spain has a region with a much better deal than what Catalonia asked for in that estatut, at least from the economical point of view. So it makes no sense that we are never heard and considered at all. Always NO NO NO.

Richer regions must help poorer ones, of course, but that has to have its limits too. DOn't you agree?

I agree that a referendum should be allowed. I don't agree that that should be obtain by running an illegal referendum and threatening with chaos. And neither does EU.

AGree. but the one that can allow it, is Rajoy. And he won't. What else can we do? surrender? shut up?
 
The only card left is destroying Catalan economy through massive and constant protests but that doesn't always work as you can see in Greece and France. At this point polls show a rise in Nationalist Spanish parties so the opposition to allowing a referendum in Catalonia is actually growing instead of going down.

If this keeps going the only independence will be of pure spite and hate only to see an independent Catalonia fail.
 
And all those topics, money, language etc... were adressed by the estatut in 2006, approved in a legal referendum a PSC being the 'President' of Catalunya. That Estatut was slaughtered after a campaign against it from PP .

Just so you know, half of the current ruling coalition (ERC), defended the no to the Estatut because it had been gutted (and that's before the PP took it to the constitutional court), at least in the eyes of ERC, with the help of the then main opposition party and now the other half of that coalition (CiU, well now splitted and rebranded).

AGree. but the one that can allow it, is Rajoy. And he won't. What else can we do? surrender? shut up?

Well, actually the one who should allow it is the Spanish congress. And I don't remember Puigdemont bringing a proposition to be debated. Yes, It'd probably have been voted down, but at least he could say: see I tried but they don't want to. And either call elections or follow the unilateral route (not that I agree though) but having some arguments to defend it.
 

tzare

Member
Just so you know, half of the current ruling coalition (ERC), defended the no to the Estatut because it had been gutted (and that's before the PP took it to the constitutional court), at least in the eyes of ERC, with the help of the then main opposition party and now the other half of that coalition (CiU, well now splitted and rebranded).



Well, actually the one who should allow it is the Spanish congress. And I don't remember Puigdemont bringing a proposition to be debated. Yes, It'd probably have been voted down, but at least he could say: see I tried but they don't want to. And either call elections or follow the unilateral route (not that I agree though) but having some arguments to defend it.
Well ERC, as an independentist party, makes sense that they saw the Estatut as something limited since it meant Catalonia was still part of Spain, it was a better deal than the previous one but far from what they want.

And by Rajoy i obviously meant the spanish government, the Congress and the Senate. But there's a precedent, do you remember Ibarretxe going there and what happened?
But i agree, he could go there and talk, but it is clear what will happen.
 

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
Actually the first step should have been in trying to convince the Spanish left wing parties to participate in a discussion on how the Catalan issue can be solved together instead of practically throwing them under the bus and giving Rajoy more votes after he was almost out of the govern last time around. That should have been the start. A common discussion on how to proceed. This if the intent was to solve the issue in peaceful way and not just gaining votes through radicalisation of the positions (the same thing that makes Rajoy wins on the other side).
 

tzare

Member
Spanish left doesn't exist besides Podemos. PSOE is right wing. And even if it was, going against Catalonia gives a lot of votes in Spain, and always did wouldn't tolerate a referendum to 'break' Spain

And the leaders of omnium and anc have just been sent to prison. Two activists of non gubernamental organizations, that have promoted peaceful mobilizations.
This is unacceptable. There's no separation from executive and law powers in Spain.
This won't end well
 
But there's a precedent, do you remember Ibarretxe going there and what happened?
But i agree, he could go there and talk, but it is clear what will happen.
I know, It would have been voted down (with probably more favorable votes than ibarretxe did back then). But It would have been the correct start. Not just going unilaterally and then expect Spain to agree (and probably boosting Rajoy support in the process).
 
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