No offense to catalonians but i dont think its in the EUs interest to recognize a independent catalonia as its gonna fuel other nationalists in europe and sour the relationship with Spain(which is poised to get a bigger role in the EU with Britain gone).
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Catalonia to split from Spain within 48 hours of secession vote
- Thread starter LordOfLore
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What?
Maybe you are on a different dimension than me, majority of people in Catalonia arent racist.
For example my cousin is married with a camerun men.
AkrosRockBell
Banned
Wow, this thread is so biased by opinions from pro-independence people that I'll just leave this article (in English) for now
https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/03/inenglish/1507025584_438952.html
Also, about "policy brutality"... yeah, there was pretty much none. I guess pro-indepent people think that holding and illegal vote, using old people and kids as human shields and occupaying public places by force is now legal and ethically correct, so much that they expect riot police to pat them in the head and let them go.
If you break the law then deal with the consequences. Law is essential in every democracy as it protects everyone's rights, you can't simply step all over it as you like and then say it was because of democracy. That's bs.
Probably what happened last Sunday won't repeat itself, now no judge and no other police force trusts the mossos so they are gonna be left out of any action that needs to be done, which will allow for a better planning and not having to improvise due to treason and disobedience to the law.
https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/03/inenglish/1507025584_438952.html
Also, about "policy brutality"... yeah, there was pretty much none. I guess pro-indepent people think that holding and illegal vote, using old people and kids as human shields and occupaying public places by force is now legal and ethically correct, so much that they expect riot police to pat them in the head and let them go.
If you break the law then deal with the consequences. Law is essential in every democracy as it protects everyone's rights, you can't simply step all over it as you like and then say it was because of democracy. That's bs.
Probably what happened last Sunday won't repeat itself, now no judge and no other police force trusts the mossos so they are gonna be left out of any action that needs to be done, which will allow for a better planning and not having to improvise due to treason and disobedience to the law.
"police brutality" is when police use excessive physical force on a person. it has nothing to do with whether the arrest is lawful or not.
so, yes, some of the images we've seen definitely do meet the definition of police brutality.
You live in an alternate dimension or are blinded by hate if you're unable to see police brutality in what has happened.
But of course you think people voting peacefully deserve to be beaten so you are beyond salvation. Go spread lies elsewhere.
My experience is my neighborhood, computer science college and night clubs.
Only speaking about my neighborhood:
When I was 8-9 years old kid (20 years ago more or less) I hadn't seen a black or asian person on real life. Today I have a niece with 3 years who goes with other chinese, black and white little kids to the same nursery school. There is a little mosque a few meters from the parish.
Many chinese business (Restaurants, hair salon, grocery store), arab business (Meat market, restaurants), african business (hair salon, clothes store). Gypsies sell fruits on the street but without cause problems (while doesn't appear the police lol).
After, we have a 'mercadillo' every wednesday where there is every kind of people selling stuff.
I see old white people with black granchildren playing in the kid parks. Many arab mothers speaking on the same park with other mothers.
I was in a first communion this year of my cousin where also a little black girl celebrated it and her family was pleased and recorded everything without problems.
Of course, sometimes it could be problems because we're humans but no differents of others conlifcts between Spanish white people.
AkrosRockBell
Banned
Sure, only the superior pro-independence light beings are right and can break the law. I guess I wanna be one too. Gotcha.
Yes, some were due to improvisation after being betrayed by the mossos, I won't say no, but it's not as much as you think just the same pictures you keep saying all over again and no, the people who got hit are not innocent pacifist voters at all.
Someone acting according to the law wouldn't have participated in this farce and stayed home instead (just like the mayority of the catalonian society did) of illegally occupaying electoral spots.
Frankfurter
Member
Fair enough yeah, I don't really expect it to happen either if you ask me. There are several regions in EU countries who want independence too so I'm sure they're watching this whole ordeal very closely.
If the EU recognizes Catalonia then they'll be throwing shit against the fan themselves.
AkrosRockBell
Banned
As fake as the ones from 2012 riots that were being used or as the one about a woman saying that police broke 3 of her fingers in one hand when they actually grabbed the other and then it turned out to just be a single swelled finger.
Why not post videos of people throwing rocks, chairs at the police, chasing them out of towns or forcing them to jump over fences? I guess those don't count as they prove that pacific resistance was a lie pretty much everywhere they had to intervene.
International press and "neutral pro independece Scottish observes brought by the regional goverment" don't really care about all that, just the easy picture.
Ita not racist as in people beating each other or calling the n word (or anything like that) but for me it's clear that its not close to being a racist free area. (Well, I dont think such a place exist, but I mean that here isnt one of the best in that matter).
Btw, its the most LGBT friendly city that I've been too, but at the same time one of the most sexist. This makes absolutely no sense to me, as its basically the same logic behind those thoughts/actions.
Anyway, the thread is not about this, and after I wrote the first response I realized that the situation here is more or less the same as in other parts of europe that I've lived/stayed long periods (Portugal, Hungary, Lithuania...).
I bet those old ladies who were bleeding where being pretty agressive with those poor cops, eh?
Please, keep up with you justification of violence, I want to see how low can you sink.
AkrosRockBell
Banned
That's what happens when you use human shields, but hey, you win, you are right but I guess no matter how low I go I won't be able to reach you.
Costa Kid
Member
It could also make these regions very pro-EU as a result?
Everyone knows old people are mindless zombies that will do the bidding of the first person who ask them. Nevermind they lived through the Franco era and know better than anyone what Sunday meant.
Just a friendly reminder that all the international press disagrees 100% with you
But just how lower can you go when you're already victim blaming and trying to twist reality so it can fit whatever it is that you want to prove?
There's that word again, as if it means shit.
If there's no plausible legal route to independence in the face of an intransigent Spanish government, then whatever path taken towards that end goal is by definition "illegal". On balance, a completely non-violent referendum is probably the least possible morally abrasive way of gaining independence.
It's the Spanish constitution, law and government which is wrong from any sensible point of view when you take off your patriotic / geopolitically tinted glasses.
When the Spanish King is declaring the referendum "illegal", how is this any different morally compared to de facto dictators the world over declaring music, art, expression, protests, a want for democracy or self determination - illegal?
I'm sure that dude who stood in front of a tank in Tiananmen Square was doing "illegal" shit, too.
This is the part where you tell us these situations are completely different. But even if the situations themselves might be significantly different, the argument and logic that you're employing by constantly circling back to "it's illegal" is exactly the same tactic used by the aforementioned henchman like Putin and The Chinese Communist Party to put down protests in their own countries.
Please get a better argument than "it's illegal'.
And when you're casually dismissing state sponsored violence, you might want to just stop and think about that by yourself for a few moments.
AkrosRockBell
Banned
Cool story bros, have a nice day in that dream world of yours
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
The EU is not going to recognise rogue regions of member states.
It's also absolutely asinine to think that the support for independence is nearly as high as the "referendum" is claiming. Those who still went to the polls were overwhelming pro-independence, so it's quite a bold claim to think that nationalist parties representing less than 50 percent of the vote in the last Catalan elections somehow have the support of a majority.
Whether there should be an actual referendum or not is not what I'm talking about, not relevant to my point.
It's also absolutely asinine to think that the support for independence is nearly as high as the "referendum" is claiming. Those who still went to the polls were overwhelming pro-independence, so it's quite a bold claim to think that nationalist parties representing less than 50 percent of the vote in the last Catalan elections somehow have the support of a majority.
Whether there should be an actual referendum or not is not what I'm talking about, not relevant to my point.
Complains about bias. Links to El Pais. Denies the video documented evidence of widespread police brutality against peaceful protesters and those engaged in non-violent civil disobedience.
What a despicable, morally reprehensible post. How appropriate for it to be used in defence of the Spanish Government.
I just stood in the middle of an extremely peaceful 300k person protest in Barcelona, there was song and dance. I don't know how the people you claim were using senior citizens as riot shields on Sunday calmed down so quickly for Tuesday.
Edit: by the way I am a Asian American man born and raised in Chicago. I am dating a Catalan girl. I honestly feel as if I'm less of a 'foreign' presence here than in Los Angeles.
Theonik
Member
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Is pretty funny, and telling, that while a lot of people and media outlets outside from Spain is looking at this and bewildered at the violence and the repression, our complacent media controlled by the oligarchy and hatefull unionist are trying their damned best to convince themselves and the world, that it was just a proportionate act by the police.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9hAgn0todA
https://twitter.com/Juanmi_News/status/914994869457838081
Even CNN is ethering our goverment on this. (Sorry our foreign minister is so bad, "Marca España" and all that...)
I'm ashamed, literally, of ever reading fucking El Pais. What a joke it became.
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
I think there is a point in which we can agree that one side was too aggressive (dont beat up old ladies, come on) and one side has been bending the truth a little much (800+ injured? come on). This is not as black and white as Charlottesville was, this was a confusing fucking mess with conflicting information left and right.
I hated seeing that violence and it is shameful and embarrassing that it happened, but in my mind it doesn't validate Catalonia splitting from Spain ... and its pretty alarming that Puidgemont is stating they will claim independence in the coming days, thats some dangerous shit to be saying.
We can discuss if the idea of nations is outdated and whether we should even be dividing lands like we do, but just because youre demanding independence peacefully doesnt mean you will get it (nevermind should get it)
Edit: Yeah, El Pais is prettttyyy damn biased in favor of the central government, ABC has its issues too. I veer more towards El Mundo for less bias, but even then you can see where the shots are coming from half the time.
I hated seeing that violence and it is shameful and embarrassing that it happened, but in my mind it doesn't validate Catalonia splitting from Spain ... and its pretty alarming that Puidgemont is stating they will claim independence in the coming days, thats some dangerous shit to be saying.
We can discuss if the idea of nations is outdated and whether we should even be dividing lands like we do, but just because youre demanding independence peacefully doesnt mean you will get it (nevermind should get it)
Edit: Yeah, El Pais is prettttyyy damn biased in favor of the central government, ABC has its issues too. I veer more towards El Mundo for less bias, but even then you can see where the shots are coming from half the time.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
I mean, why can't be believe all the injured numbers after seeing so many violent acts by the police? No one is saying they were severe injuries, but the number seems to add up seeing so many scenes of brutal violence by the riot police.
Spain goverment just said they are fake, without even providing any counterargument, we have to remember they said that the "police response was proportionate" and that the "objective was never the people", both terrible lies as the many video proved.
the Public Building Protector has logged on
seriously do you think anyone gives a shit that someone was nonviolently protesting? you think it's okay to brutalize those people because they're not "innocent"? that "illegally occupying" a public building is some kind of evil thing, but police crackdowns are actually very good?
Business
Member
The number of people injured is based on people that required medical assistance. Are we now doubting the integrity of the doctors that assisted these people?
There are surely a lot more people that got hit, didn't seek medical assistance and thus are not counted.
Denying the existence of police brutality on Sunday is pretty ridiculous. It was an abuse and a stupid tactic. Also it's pretty irrelevant if there were 800 or 900 injured. Even 1 injured in an abuse is 1 too much.
Even if you think that you are morally right, that doesn't cancel the fact that the current law was broken. You can't make an action "legal" just because you refuse to acknowledge the law.
And sure, sometimes it takes illegal actions to reach a purpose, but you also need to acknowledge the possible legal consequences.
Also it is in poor taste to compare organising a referendum with the action of people from Tiananmen square.
Even if you think that you are morally right, that doesn't cancel the fact that the current law was broken. You can't make an action "legal" just because you refuse to acknowledge the law.
And sure, sometimes it takes illegal actions to reach a purpose, but you also need to acknowledge the possible legal consequences.
Also it is in poor taste to compare organising a referendum with the action of people from Tiananmen square.
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
Im not taking the governments side on this. I saw the footage and believe people were beaten and it disgusts me. I also believe that the Generalitat would inflate the number to fit their needs. The way the story is being presented outside of Spain is basically "look at this bloody old lady, there were 800 more people treated like that"
Im usually not a cynic about these things so Im sorry about that. What a shitty situation.
I don't think that if there are let's say 400 instead of 800 is any better for the Spanish government stupidity and for Spain's image in the world.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
More than the idea of nations and secession, the biggest problem here is the actual goverment denying our country multiple plural nations. The current model and the 78' constitution is not enough, but they are refusing to change one bit of the current relationship, not only with Catalonia but other historical nations in our contry. We need a reform or Spain will eventually loss Catalonia. The current Autonomous communities system is deficient and it dosn't satisfy our plurality.
There's no other way out of this. But for a lot of unionists, an endemic problem here, the 78's was the red line, that's all they allowed other nations in the country. But the whole model is a mess, outside of the classical complaints about taxes and money.
Sadly, our king tonight further endowed this old and outdated unionist idea of the country (Well, the family has a long standing tradition of repression against Catalonia!), so the solution of a proper reform and a pacted referendum is even more further away.
There's no other way out of this. But for a lot of unionists, an endemic problem here, the 78's was the red line, that's all they allowed other nations in the country. But the whole model is a mess, outside of the classical complaints about taxes and money.
Sadly, our king tonight further endowed this old and outdated unionist idea of the country (Well, the family has a long standing tradition of repression against Catalonia!), so the solution of a proper reform and a pacted referendum is even more further away.
ToLateToLove
Member
I'm in Barcelona right now for the first time. I did not expect any protests and such when I arrived but it has been interesting to see. At first I did not know what to expect but then it almost started to feel like a celebration of Catalunya. Young and old people alike, drumming and cheering from balconies. Tomorrow I atleast hope businesses open again so that we don't have trouble finding a place to eat again without queeing!
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
100% agree. One person getting hurt is one person too many.
However, if the Generalitat was shown to be an unreliable narrator, they would lose a lot of their goodwill from outside Spain, and I think theyre risking that.
I don't think that the Generalitat has too much of a good will outside Catalonia. Catalan people yes, but their politicians not really. Nobody in Europe appreciates this new crisis that threatens economies and stability.
Especially this "now or never" type of action without any medium-long term strategy. Like now, Spanish government is entrenched in their own maximal position. The other Spanish parties can't really do too much since they are forced to discus about radical positions and not a real solution and the Spanish people are also pushed now into a Spain vs. Catalonia mindset.
And now what?
Business
Member
The Spanish government today claims theres more than 400 policemen injured even when theres no record on any hospital, not to mention the lack of video evidence. You may start looking here for an unreliable narrator.
forknknife
Banned
By the way, the painting behind the king during his speech was this:
Carlos III, the king that forbid education in Catalan in 1768. Nice touch, asshole.
I Don't know if the painter was super honest, an asshole or Carlos III was simply that fucking ugly. He looks like a proboscis monkey.
His Majesty
Banned
The Spanish government is tired of the Catalan persecution of national police agents.
lmao what am i reading
lmao what am i reading
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Now the UE mediates to force Spain to reach a pacted referendum. They sure forced us to change our constitution for they damned austerity laws...
That or it will be eventually blow up to them. Spain with 100% of debt and growing will lose 1/4 of their GDP. It might happen now or in 10 years but will happen.
forknknife
Banned
Why is the current system deficient? How would you fix it? What is your autonomy currently lacking?
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Welcome to the House of Bourbon inbred depression or what happens when for generations your family fucks your relatives over and over.
In short: A fully federal state, who recognizes the plurality of the country and the nations inside it and give more and clearer competencies to the states. The whole fiscality needs to be redone so a fair redistribution of riches are put in place.
The current system is inefficient, because we just saw how easy is to override the region goverments institutions without even parliament approval. Is still highly centralist, that was the idea of it the system though, which is way is failling now.
I know is not enough, this is way more complex for me to fully explain.
In case of a split it is very likely that Catalonia will inherit a good part of the debt. Unless it starts with 0 assets and 0 liabilities in case it will immediately need loans to build the new state infrastructure.
Actually EU has no interest in helping Catalonia to become independent. Both Spanish and Catalan economies will be fucked and euro would take a pretty serious hit.
Edit: plus EU doesn't really have that many political means as people think to force members to do things (outside of economical measures). Just look at Hungary and Poland in the past years.
forknknife
Banned
Oh I know them, I'm Spanish, but it's just incredible how could a King see that painting and go "yup, that's me, all good" instead of cutting the painter's head off lol
Relaxed Muscle
Member
That's why UE should force a referendum so the goverment can seduce Catalonia with a new model and a proper recognition of it's nationality, instead of letting our central goverment rot the problem until the only ending is a secession.
I mean, they sure did, when they forced us to change our constitution for the first time in just one month and without even consulting the population about it. I'm sure they'll manage.
SplitYourInfinities
Member
Catalonia not only will inherit part of the debt, but they also will have to refund a big chunk of money to Spain. Also, no more EU aid money since they won't be part of it.
I'm totally in for a legal referendum because I think Catalonians are smart enough to not vote for independence. Hopefully, they don't let the hatred and resentment vote for them.
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