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[GamerSoul]

Heh, all this over DILDOS. DILDOS, man.

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Volition, if you guys are out there reading, just keeping doing what you're doing. I can feel the love you guys put in it. I was a little upset to hear Enter the Dominatrix (which probably would have featured many gimps and dildos) was not being released but I got over it and maybe it was for the best. Yes it can be better and improved on, but you guys know that already so best of luck.

 

[EightBitNate]

 

[UrbanRats]

If we want to discuss this topic in all its implications, the conversation really begins and ends with Bayonetta to me. That's by reckoning a perfect example of a game I actually might be embarrassed to have someone walk in on me playing. Yet it's so good that it can't really matter that much to me. I think a/the? Bayonetta sequel could tone it down a little without doing much to distort its identity.

Oh Bayonetta is the perfect example actually, just like Saint's Row 3 uses immaturity as a clear stylistic choice, Bayonetta uses silly sexualization in the same way.
On the other hand, the booty Cortana (random example) is completely pointless and what should be really looked into, instead of railing against a game that is self conscious about its themes and over the top nature.

If someone is embarassed to be walked in, playing Bayonetta, that's their problem of course.
Sexyness can be fun and be made fun of, having to have sexyness where it doesn't really belong, is a whole other problem, and that should be embarassing.

 

[Hawkian]

That's true, I agree the use of hypersexualization per the tone of the game is quite similar in Bayonetta vs. the immature humor in SR3. I find that it does so in a less compelling way, to some extent, but it's just personal preference. edit: Yup, can't say it's anything other than my problem that I'd get embarrassed seeing it. I dare you to not get embarrassed if your mom walks in during the Joy intro!

Did you mean that Halo 4 sexualizes Cortana? :-/ I haven't played it yet. She's always been a great character.

 

[Game Guru]

Saints Row is successful because of how different it is from GTA. Think about this... There had been many platformers since Super Mario Bros., but what was the first platformer to actually become a hit approaching Mario's fame... Sonic the Hedgehog, a game designed to be everything that Mario was not, but still in that particular genre.

Saints Row is designed to be everything GTA is not while remaining in the genre GTA created. It keeps the basic modern day criminal setting that is typical to the genre, but goes in a completely different direction with it.

 

[GamerSoul]

Oh Bayonetta is the perfect example actually, just like Saint's Row 3 uses immaturity as a clear stylistic choice, Bayonetta uses silly sexualization in the same way.
On the other hand, the booty Cortana (random example) is completely pointless and what should be really looked into, instead of railing against a game that is self conscious about its themes and over the top nature.

If someone is embarassed to be walked in, playing Bayonetta, that's their problem of course.
Sexyness can be fun and be made fun of, having to have sexyness where it doesn't really belong, is a whole other problem, and that should be embarassing.

The only part of Bayonetta that I can say was awkward to play in front of people was when I would finish off the Joys, their intro was crazy too lol.

Saints Row is successful because of how different it is from GTA. Think about this... There had been many platformers since Super Mario Bros., but what was the first platformer to actually become a hit approaching Mario's fame... Sonic the Hedgehog, a game designed to be everything that Mario was not, but still in that particular genre.

Saints Row is designed to be everything GTA is not while remaining in the genre GTA created. It keeps the basic modern day criminal setting that is typical to the genre, but goes in a completely different direction with it.

I get what you're saying. After playing Red Faction and SR2 after SR3, I can safely say that Volition has an amazing feel for the genre.

 

[ponpo]

Wow remind me never to insult Saints Row without inquiring about the Witness Protection Program first.

 

[Hawkian]

Lol, same exact thing I thought of. The indulgent poses of the Climax attacks on bosses are a bit much, too

 

[HocusPocus]

Hrmm so playing video games isn't embarrising but playing one with a dildo weapon you never have to use is to your wife hrmmm.

 

[UrbanRats]

That's true, I agree the use of hypersexualization per the tone of the game is quite similar in Bayonetta vs. the immature humor in SR3. I find that it does so in a less compelling way, to some extent, but it's just personal preference. edit: Yup, can't say it's anything other than my problem that I'd get embarrassed seeing it. I dare you to not get embarrassed if your mom walks in during the Joy intro!

Did you mean that Halo 4 sexualizes Cortana? :-/ I haven't played it yet. She's always been a great character.

She was always a naked lady, but in 4 she's got more "physical" and has more of an 8 shape.
I think it looks dumb, but hey..

And about the embarassment, i guess it depends on who your parents/friends are etc etc, but you could say that about a lot of things.
As i said i would be more embarassed to be seen enjoying Heavy Rain, personally (although not really, since i think it sucks).
Each of us has a different level of uncomfortableness with different subjects of course, but if we look at it from a more detached and neutral point of view, no, i don't think you should feel embarassed playing Saint's Row 3 or Bayonetta.
Whether you find their parodying stupid or not it's then another argument altogether.

 

[Thug Waffle]

Saints Row is successful because of how different it is from GTA. Think about this... There had been many platformers since Super Mario Bros., but what was the first platformer to actually become a hit approaching Mario's fame... Sonic the Hedgehog, a game designed to be everything that Mario was not, but still in that particular genre.

Saints Row is designed to be everything GTA is not while remaining in the genre GTA created. It keeps the basic modern day criminal setting that is typical to the genre, but goes in a completely different direction with it.

I agree with you. Besides, Cliff's games are full of gratuitous, unrealistic, ridiculous violence. He likes to push the envelope with violence, how come Volition can't do it with humor?

 

[Hawkian]

She was always a naked lady, but in 4 she's got more "physical" and has more of an 8 shape.
I think it looks dumb, but hey..

And about the embarassment, i guess it depends on who your parents/friends are etc etc, but you could say that about a lot of things.
As i said i would be more embarassed to be seen enjoying Heavy Rain, personally (although not really, since i think it sucks).
Each of us has a different level of uncomfortableness with different subjects of course, but if we look at it from a more detached and neutral point of view, no, i don't think you should feel embarassed playing Saint's Row 3 or Bayonetta.
Whether you find their parodying stupid or not it's then another argument altogether.

I don't think I should feel embarrassed either, they're both outstanding games. It's just. I think it's less necessary for it to exist to the degree it does. I guess: if Bayonetta had half as much hypersexuality, I'd consider it an equally good game. But the immature humor in SR3 and how absolutely absurd the scenarios are, those are part of what makes it great to me.

 

[Retro_]

(Mariaaaa Scene)

That scene was directly made to make a statement on my personal belief of right to die in the wake of Terri Schaivo. Was it appropriate to put that sort of thing into a game that features buff guys chainsawing lizard men? Debatable.

I think this deserves a new thread.

Are you serious?

I can't stop laughing

Highlight of the thread

 

[Y2Kev]

Wow. Just wow.

 

[Hawkian]

A moment of remembrance for the departed :-/ Might that they learn to refrain from ad hominem or drive-bys in days to come.

 

[Lord_Nergal]

I find it amusing that when I actually show up to the thread the biggest trolls suddenly vanish.

Come at me, bro.

You gave it 5 minutes from your initial post.

Although, that was more time than you gave Dom to figure out how to deal with his wife....

 

[Alucrid]

jesus, how many gaffer's girls has cliffyb stolen?

 

[Derrick01]

jesus, how many gaffer's girls has cliffyb stolen?

I'm guessing that one dude who challenged him to a street fight for some reason has some deeper unresolved issues with Cliffy that we don't know about.

 

[UrbanRats]

I don't think I should feel embarrassed either, they're both outstanding games. It's just. I think it's less necessary for it to exist to the degree it does. I guess: if Bayonetta had half as much hypersexuality, I'd consider it an equally good game. But the immature humor in SR3 and how absolutely absurd the scenarios are, those are part of what makes it great to me.

Well sure we can debate various gradients of it.
My point though is that some games (Bayo and SR3) make of their "hot topics" their stylistic flagship and central points, while others just use them tangentially to net a bunch of cheap sales in.
When discussing how gaming should change and grow up, i think the latter ones should be under the microscope, instead of the formers.
Argument which is true for the ultraviolence, too.

 

[Nealand Liquor]

This thread is, in my eyes, another example of how this board has changed and not for the better. It seems ever since the Dyack incident, many just can't wait to spew hate and insults towards any bigger named developer. This is not the same neogaf I started reading years back. Fucking depressing that some of the post wouldn't be out of place on 4chan.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

Jeeeeesus, this thread got crazy since I last checked. Kind of embarrassing that some good discussion got drowned out by name-calling, emasculating, and... challenges to street fights and boxing matches.

I really hope Cliffy hasn't been scared off entirely, because I really do think it's worth having a conversation about why he believes it's so important for a game to cater to more priggish tastes rather than challenge them, if he agrees that it's a slightly backwards phenomenon.

The public perception of video games is obviously a very important thing sometimes (the Tomb Raider rape trivialization debate, for example) but in the case of Saints Row I think that its irreverence is 90% of its charm. I know it's not for everyone, but I think I prefer its self-aware idiocy to offensive games that take themselves too seriously.

I only ever played UT 2004, anyone got video of this? Sounds horrible.

They're taunts from UT99, 2k3, and 2k4, I believe. It's less relevant after Cliffy clarified the point I was initially bringing up by mentioning them, but if you're curious just do a search for Unreal Tournament taunt list.

 

[sp3000]

I can't believe some of these accounts were actually ever unjuniored. These people do not belong on this forum.

 

[Dice]

This thread is, in my eyes, another example of how this board has changed and not for the better. It seems ever since the Dyack incident, many just can't wait to spew hate and insults towards any bigger named developer. This is not the same neogaf I started reading years back. Fucking depressing that some of the post wouldn't be out of place on 4chan.

Meh, they got some bans, and if they don't learn from them they'll get permas. There is only so much you can do.

SolidSnakex created this memorable thread, so some things around here remain from the old days.

I can't believe some of these accounts were actually ever unjuniored. These people do not belong on this forum.

lol I forgot juniors don't come back. I try to warn the newly-approved if I know them from elsewhere.

 

[Hawkian]

I really hope Cliffy hasn't been scared off entirely

Apparently my new gig is "Troll Hunter."

I think he'll pull through. -_-

 

[aeolist]

I happen to personally believe that the immature bits hold the game back.

...

And those of you who like to try to invalidate my opinion by citing my prior work, in all sincerity, blow me. Next time your opinion generates a 15 page debate on GAF call me.

Love,

Cliff

"The immature bits of this game really hold it back" *acts like a 12 year old*

 

[SteveWinwood]

I found where all the bannings happened at!

 

[The Boat]

Well this thread got ugly. Just adding my late two cents, Saint's Row was never going to outsell GTA, so I think they did the best possible thing: go all out, do outrageous and silly things and deliver a quality game. Not only did it provide something different for us to play, but it also differentiated the product which might have helped its chances.

 

[Truespeed]

Cliff needs to be in charge of a studio.

 

[Hawkian]

He probably will be one day if he wants to be, right? Isn't he just sort of taking a break from the industry?

 

[MrCunningham]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46883750&postcount=13
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46883798&postcount=28
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46883878&postcount=48
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46884174&postcount=113
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46884224&postcount=121
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46884643&postcount=175
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46886469&postcount=335
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46887030&postcount=395
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46887670&postcount=459
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46888518&postcount=521
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46888795&postcount=531
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46897751&postcount=819
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46898183&postcount=866
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46899433&postcount=968
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46900846&postcount=1025
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46901715&postcount=1058
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46901856&postcount=1064
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46902990&postcount=1101
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46905982&postcount=1203
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46906796&postcount=1220
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46907106&postcount=1226
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46907952&postcount=1241

I don't give a fuck. This thread is an embarrassment.

 

[IHaveIce]

Don't know.. I have to agree with him.

These stuff is exactly why I dislike the Saints Row games, even though they have huge potential.

 

[Uno Venova]

To be clear I don't mean to personally attack him over what he said here specifically.
It is just my opinion that in general cliffyb is a complete douchebag.

This fucking killed me, not that I agree with it...

I think Saints should keep it's own identity.

 

[partyphone]

so wait, Cliffy's argument is that sufficiently controversial opinions are above reproach?

 

[Tzeentch]

The public perception of video games is obviously a very important thing sometimes (the Tomb Raider rape trivialization debate, for example) but in the case of Saints Row I think that its irreverence is 90% of its charm. I know it's not for everyone, but I think I prefer its self-aware idiocy to offensive games that take themselves too seriously.

Has Cliffy noted if he played the previous two Saint's games? They were not nearly as ridiculous, and sold millions of copies, but the game does seem to have become more visible and distinct with the third title. There is probably an argument to made that there is a win-win possibility where Volition could tone down some of the "shocking just to be shocking" elements and pull in more people like me that enjoy that style of sandbox game but are put off by the fart-joke level humor.

 

[ChosenPredator]

I don't think he's ever going to come back here now :-(

 

[Montresor]

http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=46886469&postcount=335

Thanks D4Danger for bringing those posts to light. The above link is part of that list and just floored me. Why is this person sooo angry at Cliffy? One poster made a good point: it would be wise to get into witness protection if you're going to insult Saint's Row.

I'm sorry, but this guy is seriously some fucking random dude who made it in games. Congrats. A fucking dildo is a fucking dildo. This isn't 19 fucking 59.

Hey, Cliff, in 20 years we will all look back upon your own games as piles of shit that did absolutely nothing for anything. GREAT job! I mean, let's not go thinking your games will ever EVER matter. Because they ain't art, never will be, and hence nobody will ever give a flying fuck about them in any kind of future. They are violent, stupid, and somewhat fun mash-ups. The end. You want to make a game that matters? Get a fucking writer and a team who knows how to do something of any kind of serious quality beyond HEY BRO FUCK I JUST SHOT SOME DUDE FUCK WHAT DO WE DO NOW LET'S GO!

 

[Sojgat]

I agree with Cliffy (Edit: about the dildo). I loved SR3 (and everything Volition have ever done), but I thought the dildo was kind of stupid. Mechanically there's some great additions in SR3, but SR2 and Red Faction Guerrilla were better games overall. Saints Row needs to stick with the crazy tone, but concentrate on gameplay and clever writing instead of giant purple penis whackers and bullshit like "Whored" mode.

 

[Tomat]

I'm guessing that one dude who challenged him to a street fight for some reason has some deeper unresolved issues with Cliffy that we don't know about.

I'd challenge CliffyB to a boxing match. Just sayin.

I have no idea how to box though. Or even how to really fight for that matter.

Maybe this is a bad idea.

 

[Mr. Enigma]

I don't think he's ever going to come back here now :-(

Darn. However will Gaf continue without a pretentious douche who whines on Twitter when the majority don't kiss his ass about an opinion?

 

[Hawkian]

Don't know.. I have to agree with him.

These stuff is exactly why I dislike the Saints Row games, even though they have huge potential.

There are lots of games I don't like that have huge followings- I would much rather the developers continue to identify the qualities the existing fans like than significantly change certain aspects of the game specifically to appeal to those like me who don't.

Darn. However will Gaf continue without a pretentious douche who whines on Twitter when the majority don't kiss his ass about an opinion?

Are you kidding me? Have you witnessed this thread?

 

[XANDER CAGE]

Has Cliffy noted if he played the previous two Saint's games? They were not nearly as ridiculous, and sold millions of copies, but the game does seem to have become more visible and distinct with the third title. There is probably an argument to made that there is a win-win possibility where Volition could tone down some of the "shocking just to be shocking" elements and pull in more people like me that enjoy that style of sandbox game but are put off by the fart-joke level humor.

There is that to note, too. Saints Row has always been dumb, but Saints Row the Third is a different kind of dumb. Like the first two are just complete shock humor, whereas the Third is far more absurdist - which is far more interesting than the previous games, even though Saints Row 2 probably had a better game.

 

[Mr. Enigma]

There are lots of games I don't like that have huge followings- I would much rather the developers continue to identify the qualities the existing fans like than significantly change certain aspects of the game specifically to appeal to those like me who don't.
Are you kidding me? Have you witnessed this thread?

Yeah, I have. I was fine with the whole thing until he ran to Twitter to talk shit about Gaf.

 

[TheSeks]

Holy shit, this threads blown up since I posted in here.

Suffice it to say:

1) Cliffy, I still think your "American culture of sexual repression is holding the series back" reasoning is a fallacy. Let's be honest here: The dildo isn't the problem. The problem is you were raised in a culture to where dildos being in a game embarrasses you.

But secondly, the issue with the dildo isn't the dildo. It's your perception to others.

Third, Saints Row losing the immaturity/dildo is not suddenly going to make it a AAA OSCAR WORTHY GAMEPLAY series. Not while GTA continues to have a stranglehold on the genre (sandbox titles) that other series (Saints Row/Just Cause/etc.) are just lucky to be given the time of day whenever a GTA releases the same year.

2) When I posted that purple was a problem, I didn't expect people to take that and run with it.

What I mean is: In America the color purple can be seen as "homosexual/female/feminine" and so some males are repulsed to it. But that's an American culture issue.

Really this whole thing (according to you) is based on your American culture upbringing and really doesn't hold much merit outside of "Well, it'd sell more in the US without it."

I disagree, because GTA would still sell more and Saints Row would lose what makes Saints Row... Saints Row.

 

[AlimNassor]

I agree. Saints Row 3 felt too much like "le reddit" humor. Saints Row 2 mixed over the top humor and seriousness and it felt great.

 

[Hawkian]

Don't misunderstand. His appearance in this thread and his post-GAF performance back on Twitter were largely as offensive to me as some of what was posted by our own members. But the kind of post that you just posted (using pejoratives to refer to him) has largely not been tolerated in the aftermath.

Yeah, I have. I was fine with the whole thing until he ran to Twitter to talk shit about Gaf.

 

[Dthomp]

So Cliffys idea is to take what makes SR3 it's own game (which I much prefer to GTA) and just turn it into GTA? Why don't we deserve something different? I don't need all of my games being the same.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

I like the purple in Saints Row. The other stuff, I've no opinion on. But purple is the color of royalty, makes the Saints look like ballers.

Yeah, it's like Persona 4 with yellow, pervasive yet stronger for it, almost a leitmotif of color woven into everything.

There is that to note, too. Saints Row has always been dumb, but Saints Row the Third is a different kind of dumb. Like the first two are just complete shock humor, whereas the Third is far more absurdist - which is far more interesting than the previous games, even though Saints Row 2 probably had a better game.

Yeah, Volition gave a fuck about not giving a fuck, and it paid off in sales and accolades. That's why removing that silliness goes beyond risky and into reckless territory (and putting it in harms way to both sales and accolades of GTA's weight class like I mentioned before).

I am a fan of absurdist humor, so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Dice]

I also have to say, I did find it ridiculous/offensive that there was a slider for "Sex Appeal" that adjusted a character's breasts. Not just due to the sexist nature of it, but because I find smaller breasts sexier than several types of larger breasts. But then maybe I'm a different kind of guy because I remember playing Double Dragon 2 on NES as a kid and thinking the intro with the girlfriend's massive tits hanging out was silly/dumb.

Darn. However will Gaf continue without a pretentious douche who whines on Twitter when the majority don't kiss his ass about an opinion?

That boat just sailed and you're still trying to hop on? I guess you're principled...

 

[Rubius]

The dildo simply represent freedom. Having a giant dildo simply means that the game is going places where other games are too afraid to go.
I'm for liberty in video games, but like movies, video games suffer from the ESRB limit in some store. Like the fact that having a movie or video game labelled Adult, pretty much mean dead sales wise.
Like CliffyB said, we can kill people, we can cut them in piece, torture them, make them regret they were ever born. But showing a nipple is forbidden and dont even think about seeing a vagina. Hell might just freeze over if a 10 yo boy learn that he was in one for 9 month.

Dont like all this puritan thinking. Hope the industry and the world will grow up in the next 50 years.

 

[keltickennedy]

Man....I was gone for the evening and come back....what the hell happened? So many bans. Some of those comments deserve perma-bans. Really Gaf?

Threads like this are what gives Kotaku news stories. lol.

I'm guessing that one dude who challenged him to a street fight for some reason has some deeper unresolved issues with Cliffy that we don't know about.

Or he is just some lonely dude who takes pointless shit way to personally.