CambriaRising
Member
The whole thread? Every post?
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CliffyB on Saints Row: Lose the gimps and dildos to beat GTA
- Thread starter SolidSnakex
- Start date
The whole thread? Every post?
Actual game devs are known to have more "strike" before a ban, since they give an insight into the industry. I remember the whole giant news when they banned the director of Silicon Knight because he was way way out of line.
http://www.g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/688372/neogaf-bans-too-human-creator-denis-dyack/
That's his idea tho. Again constructive criticism that by the looks of it most of the people didn't want to hear.
If gamers/industry can't take constructive criticism and comments then there is a serious problem with the medium.
bigboss370
Member
SR the third sold almost as much as Gears 3 did.
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
Banned phrases are banned because of inherent bigotry of some sort. For other things, it is not about the content of the phrase itself, but how it was used. If someone addresses you with a well thought out argument and you don't like how it makes you look wrong so you just say "blow me" and nothing more, that is a thoughtless, conversation-killing post where the other person was willing and that could catch you some heat.
When there is a 50-man dogpile on you and a great amount of the posts are bannable themselves, and you put in that kind of phrase within a post that is more largely simply explaining where you are coming from, that's not the kind of thing that is generally worried about. Although, as has been pointed out, it does make your charges against others for being immature rather ineffective.
If you are still getting a feel for gaf, the concept behind moderation here is not so much censorship as to maintain reasonable and respectful conversation. If you have been massively disrespected, there will be more grace concerning what is reasonable and respectful from you toward those people. That contextual leeway does not extend to every instance outside of that context, and what you are doing with your words and phrases is usually far more important than the particular ones you chose.
It's not hard to use your brain. Do that and you will be safe. Also, it's best not to worry about the fate of others in moderation terms. It's not your job so there is little point in bringing it up unless you were just curious about typical procedure, which is why I answered in this way.
Net_Wrecker
Member
Constructive criticism would've been: Yo Volition, you guys are great and everything, but I think you'd be even better if you tried your hand at a more dramatic, crime thriller-esque game. Not saying completely change Saints Row, but maybe a new IP showing the other side of the crime coin.
Instead what we got is: Yo Volition, wacky is fun and everything, but nah. Michael Mann dat Saints Row joint up.
See the difference? Saints Row is Saints Row. Changing an established IP into something it's not has become a huge issue this generation. Of course people will react negatively to the idea.
EDIT: And this is coming from someone who'd normally be FOR Michael Manning EVERYTHING up.
What an interesting thread. I'm not really sure where I stand here. I think all three of the Saints Row games are pretty bad and painfully unfunny, but at the same time I don't think they should move away from their strengths and what differentiates them from GTA. Clearly some people enjoy them and I'm perfectly fine with the fact that some games simply aren't for me.
Really, no one's going to routinely sell 20 million copies of an open-world crime game like GTA, dildos or no dildos. And it sounds like Deep Silver and Volition are cognizant of that.
Also, as a Brit now living in the US, I do applaud media (books, games, TV, whatever) that doesn't shy away from sexual or crude humour. Some people are so uptight about that stuff here.
Really, no one's going to routinely sell 20 million copies of an open-world crime game like GTA, dildos or no dildos. And it sounds like Deep Silver and Volition are cognizant of that.
Also, as a Brit now living in the US, I do applaud media (books, games, TV, whatever) that doesn't shy away from sexual or crude humour. Some people are so uptight about that stuff here.
Neuromancer
Member
"Hey guys, you know that game you made? It's embarrassing people's wives and that's why it didn't sell as well as this other game in practically the most popular video game series of all time aside from Call of Duty and Madden. I have an idea, why don't you change literally everything about it for your next game?"
It may be criticism but it's not very constructive.
Now that I think about it, there is possibly an argument to be made that the direction SR3 went in IS more legitimately mature than if they stuck with gangsta. Then again all I really played of the original was the demo so I don't know how pervasive that was, and SR2 was clearly showing they wanted to just make something ridiculous and absurd.
Handling it like CliffyB suggested WOULD probably be the most mature though if handled correctly, but that's probably a big divergence from any of the three games.
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
That's good. The silly nature made it way more fun to me than other games that try to take themselves to seriously. The over-the-top action sequences in SR3 were better than other games because other games seemed to be trying to legitimately come off "badass" by way of being so absurdly extreme while SR3 came off like it was just having fun with itself. It felt like the difference between watching a professional stage performance with crazy choreography and doing some crazy dancing with a partner yourself. One is just trying to be impressive, but the other is using the medium to try and get me to have fun interacting with it. It's so much more interesting that way.
grosvenor_92
Member
Who said it ever needed to beat GTA ? it just needs to continue the fun over the top action the franchise is now known for.
AgentChris
Member
There are certain franchises you can't beat and GTA is one of them.
I will agree that maybe the deliver was a little more harsh, but there is nothing wrong with possibly taking a different hook with the series. Even if it does fall down in line with being a "GTA clone". I just find it weird how a lot of people are taking this personal almost.
Hum, that's not really true. The only two franchise that are too far ahead are Mario and Pokemon.
Mario (435.51 million)
Pokémon (219.28 million)
Wii Series (192.76 million)
The Sims (150 million)
Tetris (125 million)
Grand Theft Auto (114 million)
Final Fantasy (102.04 million)
Call of Duty (100 million)
FIFA (100 million)
Need for Speed (100 million)
Madden NFL (90 million)
Sonic the Hedgehog (85.13 million)
Winning Eleven / Pro Evolution Soccer (77.06 million)
The Legend of Zelda (68.13 million)
Gran Turismo (67.89 million)
Dragon Quest (59.0004 million)
Ape Escape (58.9 million)
Tom Clancy (63 million)
...
SpongeBob SquarePants (20 million)
Spyro the Dragon (20 million)
Gears of War (19 million)(Because I know everybody will be asking)
Warcraft (19 million)
Midnight Club (18.5 million shipped)
...
Raving Rabbids (6 million)
Romance of the Three Kingdoms (6 million)
Test Drive (6 million)
Turok (6 million)
Saints Row (6 million)
Warhammer 40,000 (6 million)
Conflict (6 million shipped)
MLB 2K (5.5 million)
Chrono (5.3 million)
So yes, Saint row is far behind, but GTA is not unbeatable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_game_franchises#Plain_text_format
AgentChris
Member
I'm talking about games within certain genres.
Open World - GTA
RPG - Pokemon
Platformer - Mario
Shooter - COD / HALO(exclusive)
Driving - Gran Turismo
.
.
.
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I think Laugh tracks are one of the most irritating things you can have.
Even when an audience is live (like in Lucky Louie) i still don't like it, though they do help you instinctively "smile" at otherwise mediocre jokes, i guess.. kind of the jump scares of comedy.
Also I don't know why the hate for BBT is so fervent, i watched a bunch of episodes and while i thought it was a shit show (some of the jokes were literally just fucking name dropping of random nerd things, followed by laugh tracks) i still think it's better than that one other show with Jim Belushi in it (they are on the same channel here, that's why i'm comparing them).
I guess it's about nerd culture, so that's why it gets a lot of attention.
I personally do like it because it make me laugh. I'm a happy guy and usually like pretty much everything. There is stuff I dont really like, like obvious jumping the shark, where we get cheap celebrity pop out and stuff that dont make sense. But BBT is no less than a American IT Crowd really. Exact same thing, with the socially inapte nerd, the cooler nerd and the girl who dont know anything about nerd stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDbyYGrswtg
I never used the dildo in SR3, I saw my character more as a super villain who wanted to spread fear, not make people laugh at him. Cliffy B seems to be a fan of serious games though what with Gears of War supposedly being a serious war drama.
SR2 didn't have dildos and it didn't garner nearly as much attention as SR3 despite being roughly at the same level in terms of quality (SR2 has some advantages and some disadvantages compared to 3). SR1 was clearly not as good (much more limited, no checkpoints in missions) but the shooting and stuff was already fine so when people complain about bad shooting in GTA they could already get SR1.
SR2 didn't have dildos and it didn't garner nearly as much attention as SR3 despite being roughly at the same level in terms of quality (SR2 has some advantages and some disadvantages compared to 3). SR1 was clearly not as good (much more limited, no checkpoints in missions) but the shooting and stuff was already fine so when people complain about bad shooting in GTA they could already get SR1.
Monocle
Member
Take away all of Saints Row's personality because it's not mature enough to create favorable "industry perceptions"? Since when did effective game design have anything to do with satisfying some abstract standard of good taste? Why does Saints Row need to beat GTA anyway?
I play games that indulge in puerile humor, and I play them without embarrassment because I'm enough of an adult that I don't feel insecure about my hobbies defining me in the eyes of others. And you'd better believe I don't wring my hands about how those games affect the industry as a whole. Just like I can read Lolita or The 120 Days of Sodom and not worry that all books have somehow been tainted, or that I'll be thought a pervert by people who can't fathom why someone might be drawn to those works other than by filthy salacious longings. Their shitbrained assumptions aren't my problem.
So yes, I'll play Saints Row 3, I'll slap a pack of gimps around with a giant purple dildo, and I'll damn well enjoy it. Because when I'm in the mood for coarse-grained entertainment, I don't second guess myself. I don't make grandiose declarations about something that is, after all, nothing more than a trivial way to pass a little time. I just sit down and have fun.
P.S. You can have this cheap shot for free: A Gears of War dev weighs in on tasteful entertainment? Lolling all the way down to Poseidon's magical palace.
I play games that indulge in puerile humor, and I play them without embarrassment because I'm enough of an adult that I don't feel insecure about my hobbies defining me in the eyes of others. And you'd better believe I don't wring my hands about how those games affect the industry as a whole. Just like I can read Lolita or The 120 Days of Sodom and not worry that all books have somehow been tainted, or that I'll be thought a pervert by people who can't fathom why someone might be drawn to those works other than by filthy salacious longings. Their shitbrained assumptions aren't my problem.
So yes, I'll play Saints Row 3, I'll slap a pack of gimps around with a giant purple dildo, and I'll damn well enjoy it. Because when I'm in the mood for coarse-grained entertainment, I don't second guess myself. I don't make grandiose declarations about something that is, after all, nothing more than a trivial way to pass a little time. I just sit down and have fun.
P.S. You can have this cheap shot for free: A Gears of War dev weighs in on tasteful entertainment? Lolling all the way down to Poseidon's magical palace.
Rekki-Maru
Banned
Volition, said they killed him off to help with the motivation toward taking down The Syndicate. Although, his death served a greater purpose..a turning point for the franchise imo. I remember that last convo with johnny gat while they were in jail something like saints use to mean something..and how they traded their dicks in for pussies, he was right too because saints row did sell out. it was a fun game, but 2 was better.
Depends what you mean by beat. Can it become a bigger cultural phenomenon and get bigger sales? Probably not. But can it be way more fun, but still take itself more seriously? Definitely.
But we already have an open-world crime game for that... it's called Sleeping Dogs
Beermeister
Banned
No, never.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Saint Row 3 was funny and enjoyable, although that prostitution/human-trafficking mission was kind of.... walking past the line a bit, in my opinion.
I mean, there's a line between absurdly funny and, "wait wait wait a minute this thing is just going a bit too far."
I mean, there's a line between absurdly funny and, "wait wait wait a minute this thing is just going a bit too far."
Funny, considering that despite the great game play in Bulletstorm I remember it as "that dicktits game". I've never been embarrassed to play it though. If it hurt someone's perceptions of the industry in general, they likely aren't someone I'd associate much with (nor give credence to). I despise pandering and censorship in entertainment products... let the product stand alone and speak for itself. If there's an audience for it then let them enjoy it.
Saints Row ends up being hilarious because it's (mostly) a bunch of middle aged white guys in the middle of nowhere USA that are about as far from gang life or a ghetto as you can get. They're not cleverly riffing on gang culture, but rather recreating it through their own skewed perceptions of it while throwing in whatever amuses them. If you're criticizing it for being juvenile humor you've already failed by over-thinking the premise.
Most importantly of all though, should influential creative visionaries really be encouraging further homogenization of the game industry?
So few people seem to understand that he's not espousing his opinion that the game should not, he's postulating on popular opinion and how the game might sell if it did not. Which of course is easily conflated because he then goes on to say that he certainly would like, albeit separately, as he likes his favorite crime dramas. The disservice he did was to himself with his inability to put those points forth in a more clear and concise manner. A manner which the dildo loving minor-masses might understand. See Cliff? Clarity.
CecilRousso
Member
Is Saints Row 3 anything without the dildo jokes? I played it for 8 hours and feel that gunfights, carhandling, the city, the story and the quests are all pretty mediocre stuff. I haven't seen a single thing so far in the game that I think the game does really good.
Depends what you mean by beat. Can it become a bigger cultural phenomenon and get bigger sales? Probably not. But can it be way more fun, but still take itself more seriously? Definitely.
But we already have an open-world crime game for that... it's called Sleeping Dogs
My opinion dovetails with these comments quite well. Bravo my like minded compatriot.
Sleeping Dogs raised the bar on the genre. Sales are meaningless to me, gameplay is king. Sleeping Dogs has the best presentation of a cohesive story within an open world crime game to date and actually does the gameplay better as well (hand to hand combat by a mile, gun play by a fair bit as well). Even character development works better than any of it's predecessor's best games. I doubt SR is even trying to go in that thematic direction, though they should definitely be taking cues from a gameplay standpoint. GTA meanwhile is shooting for that same atmosphere and needs to take notice of what Sleeping Dogs accomplished.
crimsondynamics
Member
If we are talking about gameplay, Saint's Row the Third already has Grand Theft Auto IV beat.
BurnOutBrighter
Banned
What a joke. Let's make another self-serious "gritty" game that tries too hard to be accepted as meaningful, hypocritically revelling in its hyperviolence in the name of "maturity". Because THAT's the way to set yourself apart.
At least I can actually aim my gun and drive my car in SR3 without wanting to tear my hair out.
At least I can actually aim my gun and drive my car in SR3 without wanting to tear my hair out.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
That's not true at all. I've been banned for making a comeback to a jerk. The jerk got permed.
Cliffy skated because he's been a solid contributor in the past. Mods look at post history before they pull the trigger.
Why are you putting gritty in quotation marks? Gears of War pulls off gritty in a beautiful way, especially in Gears 1 and 2, and Raam's Shadow too (I felt the campaign in #3 lost some of that grittiness when they included so many tropical locales). I'm speaking of graphics, art style, and level design, though even the story itself is gritty, even if you couldn't quite call it mature. I wonder what would happen if a normal GAFer, just a regular joe, made these comments in the form of a new thread. Would people be attacking that GAFer's inability to create a good game just as much? Aaaand the answer is no. I don't know why I feel so compelled to stay in this thread, since I'm someone who has never played the Saint's Row series (although I will get into them one day). But I think I would enjoy it more if people didn't sneak in these personal attacks on Cliffy, his video games, and his skill or lack thereof as a designer. It is totally acceptable to sling a little bit of vitriol towards Cliffy because you disagree specifically with his opinion of Saint's Row. I do think it is really unfair how he is being ganged on because so many of you who disagree with his comments happen to dislike Gears as well and are trying to twist the knife, so to speak, squeezing in pot shots at his video games.
Never. Volition has proved over 3 games that they can't come close to the things that made the PS2 GTAs the monsters they were. Both from a gameplay point of view and a cinematic/story point of view.
jim-jam bongs
Member
There's an old saying which goes something like "never forget that when you point the finger at someone you point three back at yourself." I've already said repeatedly that I think the personal shit is well out of line, and I'll add that comments about his wife are particularly shitty. I wouldn't have even made a single comment about Gears if Cliff hadn't spoken up about what he thinks of Saints Row and it weren't totally relevant to the discussion, for reasons I've explained in detail.
Rather than pointing out that some people are being jerks, which is not very constructive because I think most people already realise that, perhaps you might try to move the discussion out from the gutter.
imho SR2 is better than all of the GTAs.
EightBitNate
Member
Didn't San Andreas have a dildo weapon?
Come on. Let's not get carried away. In actuality he was saying how good the franchise is. Not "Haha now you unemployed. And you ugly!"
Freezasaurus
Member
I agree.
But I think in this case, the opinion that Cliffy is trying to convey is that the juvenile humor in the SR games (and let's be honest - as amusing as it is, it is juvenile) brings down the franchise. I don't think I agree, as that's really become the identity of the Saint's Row series. That said, I don't think there's an actual argument to be had here. It's just another person's opinion. Nothing to get worked up over.
GillianSeed79
Member
I'd wager a guess the core creative part of the studio is pretty safe. The last thing you want to do when you outbid the second highest bid by $20 million is lay everyone off or do something that would create a mass exodus. I'm sure there are going to be layoffs, it's inevitable with any buyout, but I'd imagine it would be in staff redundancies like the employees who do the day-to-day administrative stuff.
I'd be more worried over how much creative control they will have over the franchise going forward. The last thing Koch media should do is put in some middle manager who tries to assert corporate's vision for the franchise.
I partly agree with you, but I already admitted that I've never played Saint's Row 3, so there's not much I can do to contribute regarding the Saint's Row 3 dialogue. But in my defense my post wasn't exclusively pointing the finger - I was also defending the Gears series as well.
jim-jam bongs
Member
Actually, I meant Cliff was pointing the finger with his original comment about "industry perceptions". Sorry that wasn't quite clear