Dixon's Jet
Banned
Yeah, the pope should do something about that. Maybe more than a handful.
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CNN: Pope held private meeting with same-sex couple in U.S.
- Thread starter ivysaur12
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Or we could keep voicing our disapproval so that there is pressure on the pope to adapt to modernity. "Keeping the positive ball rolling" is a recipe for status quo.
Pollux
Member
He should make an infallible teaching that gays can marry? Where are you going with this?
Dixon's Jet
Banned
Yeah, he should do that exact thing. Where are you going with this?
His supposed kindness doesn't matter. Besides believing people shouldn't have equal rights doesn't strike me as very kind.
I don't think claiming that someone that doesn't want gay people to have equal rights a homophobe is defining my existence by one particular part of myself.
How is it not? The hypothetical person in my post doesn't go on hateful rants about women, attack them, refuse to be kind to them, etc, but is still clearly sexist, just like the Pope in regards to gay people. Is it the whole religion thing? That doesn't matter.
This makes no sense.
Stop fucking dragging racism out every fucking time you want to make your point sound more important. Those of us actually dealing with that shit don't fucking appreciate it
Secondly, if someone doesn't agree with something you're doing and does not throw their support behind it, but also does nothing to actively impede progress in your efforts, that doesn't make them "anti-" something. It makes them neutral. And at times being neutral can be almost as destructive as being against something, occasionally even more so, but it's still not being "anti-" that thing. And it's a damn sight better than being "pro-" something and never actually doing anything to help the cause.
Nazgul_Hunter
Member
Here's a video of the encounter.
This story has gotten so weird, but as a gay Catholic this video is worth the whole weirdness of the situation
This story has gotten so weird, but as a gay Catholic this video is worth the whole weirdness of the situation
And he should personally celebrate every gay weddings in the Sistine Chapel, nothing less is acceptable.
Dixon's Jet
Banned
Nah, that has nothing to do with this discussion.
He's the head of the Catholic church. Don't whine and say that he should go to every gay wedding so you can ignore that he's the leader of a bigoted organization.
M0nochromatic
Member
It is actually disconcerting that my statement can be taken as genuine. I agree with you, I was just expressing my distain at the Pope's neutrality regarding a human rights issue with sarcasm.
I'm sorry about the race thing. It's an easy way of trying to get someone to see where you're coming from as another minority. That doesn't make it right though so I do sincerely apologize.
That said where the fuck do you get off by trying to imply that I've never done anything to help the cause? You don't know jack shit about my personal life.
Netherscourge
Banned
Did M. Knight Shyamalan write this story?
So many different plot twists with the Papal Visit last weekend...
So many different plot twists with the Papal Visit last weekend...
I didn't state you'd never done anything. I implied that your ire is better directed to your own backyard at the "allies" who never do shit to help as opposed to the "opposition" doing little to harm.
Then I apologize for my outburst.
I direct plenty of ire towards those people, as well as "allies" that only seem to be "allies" when it benefits them.
Gold_Loot
Member
Calm down sir. Turn the other cheek and what not.
I agree with both of you.
Problem is, the catholic church is one of the most influential organisations in the western world, keeping us from making progress.
We all want them on board, but they are not, they deserved to be shunned.
Just saying. Been watching this idiotic political game of things that should neither be political nor a game play out my entire life. An inactive enemy is better than an inactive ally. You don't really want to spur them into action, because odds are they'll start acting against you.
It matters to her and her followers, so hit em where it hurts for trying to make this encounter into some statement
Subpar Spatula
Banned
This is a tricky situation. Let's compare him to a politician. Let's say a politician says something race related and does the "I've got a black friend card", would he be given the same pass? Probably not. The Pope is in a position of great influence, and through the Church's policies (probably zero he created) it's caused great misery and despair for certain people (a big chunk being homosexuals). I don't think it's wrong to assume he probably has some prejudiced views that are being filtered through PR. It's hard to not assume that because he's never actually come out in full support or wanting to have things change.
Escape Goat
Member
Youre not gay are you? Should any marginalized group ever feel good about less than full equality? I would hope not. Your language of vindictive hissy fit is offensive and insulting.
Fucking. Stop.
it's more interesting that someone in the us catholic church tried to fuck over pope francis (who doesn't give a shit about the specific american culture war villain of the week) by setting him up with someone it's bad optics to be seen with, undermining his political agenda (even if he agrees with her) and now the vatican is spinning their way out of it by getting this story reported.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
The Pope hasn't done anything (unless someone can show me otherwise) to create policy change within the church. His position would be far more believable if he tried to.
Change of "policies" it's not really something that catholic people expect from him.
Bigotry against homosexuals and racism are not dissimilar prejudices. I don't see any good reason for you to be policing analogies between the two. If you disagree with the analogy explain the faulty reasoning instead of telling people to "fucking stop"
You can't possibly speak for all people dealing with racism.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
I disagree. No amount of pressure on religious people had helped strongly religious people in the first or third world moderate their views. It doesn't work that. hostility breads hostility and pushback. This is a stupid strategy that has proven not to work. To make progress you have to acknowledge the other camp, and help them, see the errors of their ways, particularly through by example - Not by giving them more fire to not want to moderate.
Nobody is getting off the hook, but progress takes time, and pushing too hard can cause trouble and steps back. So cut out the crazy extremist rhetoric. It will come if the vindictive progress left can put down their revengeful verbal pitchforks and acknowledge the steps being taken are going in the right direction.
Saying that is not being dismissive of that it's not enough but it is important steps in the right direction. So please cut out the all or nothing sthick.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Catholic people aren't the only ones affected by religious policy. The Church's influence is massive. Wanting a religion to be more accepting and progressive is something every one should want.
Then challenge my analogy or statement. Telling me to "Fucking. Stop." is pointless and will only net you, well, nothing.
You don't have to go all in and ask for reforms immediately, but at least be vocal about wanting these reforms is a good start. This is progress. Talking is talking. The Pope being nice to people isn't going to change the Church's stance on homosexuality or the other backwards ideas they have.
Escape Goat
Member
Do you have any examples of when advocating too hard for equality resulted in less equality? Nobody is saying progress is being made in many socities. Can we point to any progress in the church which is used as justification to restrict the freedoms of many minorities?
Do you really think religious people are more liberal these days because they all the sudden have a better understanding of the bible than their predecessors? No they're more liberal because certain beliefs are no longer tenable considering the pressures brought about by modern consensus.
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
This is how you always get the bad ending. Go to the end of the spectrum for those extra seconds of ending cutscenes or nothing.
brainchild
Banned
This is almost definitely true.
I immediately understood the context of his position and figured that his meeting with Davis was just 'Pope doing what Pope does best'.
If Jesus Christ walked among us today (with the presumed characteristics of himself from the Bible), I'd imagine his behavior would be similarly neutral, in the sense that he'd be all-inclusive, and not as one-sided as many people would have assumed that he would be.
Jawbreaker
Member
Pope Francis is cognitive dissonance personified.
Yeah? No thanks. Been down that road before, all it nets me is a few hours arguing with thick-headed people who only want to associate themselves and their causes with with race and racism when it benefits them.
Spend a few hours scouring NeoGAF and compare how often this analogy is applied in the reverse, then tell me how "not dissimilar" they are.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Put me on ignore, then. Telling me to stop without saying why won't do anything. It makes you look bad.
The solution to this is having a level mind and to halt from knee jerk reactions, something that I have to work on as well.
I'm good, thanks.
I don't think that's how it works dude.
Netherscourge
Banned
The hope by non-traditional Catholics, via Pope Francis, is for a synod to declare a Catholic Schism.
-for the Catholic Church to either overturn the existing religious doctrine concerning Gay people and Gay marriage - or- for the church to separate into two official Catholic sects, while still being pious to the Holy Trinity and accepting the Pope as their leader.
Maintaining the Catholic designation would allow the non-traditional Catholic churches to receive funding from their Archdiocese and share donations with the traditional Catholic Churches. They would also maintain their secular, tax exemption status in countries, like the USA.
That is pretty much the mission, in a nutshell, for non-traditional Catholics and the hope that Pope Francis is as progressive as he appears to be.
That's why Pope Francis is such a big deal and who he meets with and what he says is put under a microscope. He has never made any official declarations about any of this, mind you. But he is certainly in a position to get things rolling in that direction.
And he'd have a TON of support worldwide.
-for the Catholic Church to either overturn the existing religious doctrine concerning Gay people and Gay marriage - or- for the church to separate into two official Catholic sects, while still being pious to the Holy Trinity and accepting the Pope as their leader.
Maintaining the Catholic designation would allow the non-traditional Catholic churches to receive funding from their Archdiocese and share donations with the traditional Catholic Churches. They would also maintain their secular, tax exemption status in countries, like the USA.
That is pretty much the mission, in a nutshell, for non-traditional Catholics and the hope that Pope Francis is as progressive as he appears to be.
That's why Pope Francis is such a big deal and who he meets with and what he says is put under a microscope. He has never made any official declarations about any of this, mind you. But he is certainly in a position to get things rolling in that direction.
And he'd have a TON of support worldwide.
He has already called for the opinions of the clergy in female priesthood, homosexuality and divorce. He has indeed started from that, for the first time ever a pope has said divorced people should be accepted back into the church.
People's ignorance shows a lot in these threads, he isn't some sort of dictator that determines what is and what isn't within the doctrine of the church, changes of importance, like female priesthood for instance, are long and complicated and require a bunch of meeting called synods and councils. One who will start this sunday actually.
http://news.yahoo.com/catholic-bishops-set-resume-battle-over-future-family-093125563.html
Of course, tensions and division have arisen, catholics aren't just the Pope.
http://www.christiantoday.com/artic...ivorce.before.popes.synod.on.family/66110.htm
But yes, for the first time in our lifetimes a Pope has addressed these kind of issues.
vainglorious
Member
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