Support NeoGAF

[Boney]

The difference is that they create economical chaos that strains society and arms rebel groups that commit human genocide that are fully backed by the US.

They maybe leaked some emails in America. Which goes to show how decrepit the political system is, and that the failings are entirely on the Americans for having such a horribly polarized society that thrives on internal propaganda.

 

[Coriolanus]

Yes, but then for what end do we use that reporting? All I am seeing is a whataboutism galore and thus a lot of people implicitly trying to morally defend actions from countries like Russia in this very moment. not 50 years ago. And yes, you can be against military foreign interventions from the US *and* Russia. I don't see that expressed that often, though. It's almost always just the US.

But most of the times, even in the official Kremlin argument, it's like "Well, because of Kosovo back then we had to invade Ukraine today". And that's not what we should argue for.

For whatever end you want. If other people then choose to use the information for whatever stupid reasons they like, that is not the fault of the one who did the (factual) reporting.

Fwiw, i'm mostly seeing whining in the veins of "bububu this information will be misused!"

 

[Nerazar]

You cannot be serious.
In western media its always about the good americans and the bad Russians. It's pure propaganda. Thats what bothers people.

If that wasnt the case, this thread would look a lot different. Americans have 0 self awareness and always cry whataboutism whenever someone brings anything up, even CNN in a standalone article that deals specifically with this.

0 self awareness is a global problem, though. If you listen to 10 minutes of Russian state media, you will notice some differences now and then between, say, CNN and RT or Rossiya24. The "Western media" is at least self-reflective and broadcasts findings like that. You notice the difference that the state is usually not able to send its own people as editor-in-chiefs or program directors to the stations. Unlike "Russian media" where it's the norm.

In Russia's case, we would still have to believe that the shooting of MH17 above Eastern Ukraine was a covert CIA operation in which the corpses were loaded into the plane in Amsterdam beforehand with the airplane then being remotely detonated above Russian-occupied territories in order to defame Russia and generate more reasons to intervene.

That was being broadcast over there. It didn't bother many people over there, I think. Because they've been living in that kind of propaganda since decades. Just imagine Info Wars being the official state channel. It can get that bad over there pretty quickly if Putin decides so.

 

[Regulus Tera]

This isn't exactly news? I mean I appreciate the US finally owning to it but...?

 

[RumbleHumble]

You can be against U.S. government meddling and Russian government meddling. In fact, being against both is logically coherent.

 

[norinrad]

How is this even news? When things don't go the USA's way, they orchestrate wars and coupe's to remove whoever is in charge to put in their own man who is favorable to the US looting their country.

 

[Byakuya769]

I never knew any of this! Well, I guess we should just move on and accept Trump.

 

[Stinkles]

Regardless of the details of the subject, that CNN graphic is designed to draw a false equivalency between Russian activity in the 2016 election and our normal well understood tradecraft, statecraft and geopolitical meddling. CNN for some reason is trying to normalize treason.

 

[Netherscourge]

So, Trump will be using this to justify his presidency?

"It's OK for me to be here through Russian meddling because we meddle with other countries too. Me being president is justice for the other countries we interfered with. I'm here and nobody wants me here, so that's the best justice those other countries can have."

 

[shawnbuddy]

Yeah, yeah, many bad things. Worse than we'll ever know, probably. But you still don't tolerate and wave off when those things are done to you.

"OK, guess we'll let Russia decide our elections now. Wouldn't want to seem like a hypocrite."

That's not normal, and it makes it clear that something is very wrong when it comes to Trump.

 

[Tovarisc]

I never knew any of this! Well, I guess we should just move on and accept Trump.

Regardless of the details of the subject, that CNN graphic is designed to draw a false equivalency between Russian activity in the 2016 election and our normal well understood tradecraft, statecraft and geopolitical meddling. CNN for some reason is trying to normalize treason.

Somehow I doubt it's where CNN is going with that.

So, Trump will be using this to justify his presidency?

"It's OK for me to be here through Russian meddling because we meddle with other countries too."

He already did months ago.

Yeah, yeah, many bad things. Worse than we'll ever know, probably. But you still don't tolerate and wave off when those things are done to you.

"OK, guess we'll let Russia decide our elections now. Wouldn't want to seem like a hypocrite."

That's not normal, and it makes it clear that something is very wrong when it comes to Trump.

It's more like people are eager to wave off this part of USA history than people ignoring that what Russia did in 2016 was wrong.

 

[Coriolanus]

Regardless of the details of the subject, that CNN graphic is designed to draw a false equivalency between Russian activity in the 2016 election and our normal well understood tradecraft, statecraft and geopolitical meddling. CNN for some reason is trying to normalize treason.

ymean the graphic in the op?

 

[AcademicSaucer]

No taking responsibility is the best way to combat this shit happening. Right now your government does some heinous shit, no one knows or understands the scope of it til ten years later, then everyone has this attitude 'well I'm not responsible'. Nothing happens to those involved. People forget. Rinse and repeat.

Yep, its a never ending cycle and nothing ever changes

 

[Bolivar687]

Before the media hysteria started, I always thought it was commonly understood that we meddle in other elections all the time, and countless states and NGOs always meddle in ours - this stuff is always baked into the results. Never thought this many people would be outraged tbh. Have to imagine a good deal of it is forced.

 

[JustenP88]

So, say you're an American in January 2016 who knows all this, wants the country to accept responsibility and avoid these sorts of operations in the future... Who do you support in the upcoming presidential election?

 

[rambis]

Before the media hysteria started, I always thought it was commonly understood that we meddle in other elections all the time, and countless states and NGOs always meddle in ours - this stuff is always baked into the results. Never thought this many people would be outraged tbh. Have to imagine a good deal of it is forced.

I may be wrong but I doubt there's previously been this coordinated of an effort to hack opposition servers and leak damaging info and also an actual attempt on the voting machines.

Paying for damaging ads or whatever isn't even in the same league of what Russia is accused of.

 

[Netherscourge]

Regardless of the details of the subject, that CNN graphic is designed to draw a false equivalency between Russian activity in the 2016 election and our normal well understood tradecraft, statecraft and geopolitical meddling. CNN for some reason is trying to normalize treason.

Nah. They are simply producing facts.

Unfortunately, the facts don't always support the the Left and it's a hard pill to swallow right now considering we have a sociopath in the White House.

If anything, it gives CNN some credibility again as a legit news organization, and not just a 24/7 Left-Wing anti-conservative TV channel.

The facts don't always support you, but you can't just ignore them. Gotta take the good with the bad.

 

[acheron_xl]

Nah. They are simply producing facts.

Unfortunately, the facts don't always support the the Left and it's a hard pill to swallow right now considering we have a sociopath in the White House.

If anything, it gives CNN some credibility again as a legit news organization, and not just a 24/7 Left-Wing anti-conservative TV channel.

The facts don't always support you, but you can't just ignore them. Gotta take the good with the bad.

Reporting in 2017 what anti-interventionist lefties have known for decades = Bringing balance to a left-leaning media outlet.

Got it.

 

[Oersted]

Before the media hysteria started, I always thought it was commonly understood that we meddle in other elections all the time, and countless states and NGOs always meddle in ours - this stuff is always baked into the results. Never thought this many people would be outraged tbh. Have to imagine a good deal of it is forced.

Stop thinking, start sourcing.

Nah. They are simply producing facts.

Unfortunately, the facts don't always support the the Left and it's a hard pill to swallow right now considering we have a sociopath in the White House.

If anything, it gives CNN some credibility again as a legit news organization, and not just a 24/7 Left-Wing anti-conservative TV channel.

The facts don't always support you, but you can't just ignore them. Gotta take the good with the bad.

How does this undermine the left? Are you victim of a logical fallacy?

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

And if those countries wanted to declare their elections in which we meddled null, that would be their right.

And if it was discovered that the winner had colluded with the United States in order to win, and they wanted to imprison the winner for that collusion, that would also be their right.

This changes nothing.

 

[JustenP88]

Reporting in 2017 what anti-interventionist lefties have known for decades = Bringing balance to a left-leaning media outlet.

Got it.

For freaking real. This has been something that you couldn't bring up without being renounced as an anti-American "whataboutit" commie socialeftist for decades.

Now it's a conservative position. For some strange reason.

 

[diablos991]

Glad to see CNN reporting on this.
It's ridiculous to think the USA and other superpowers wouldn't be interfering in important events like this.

 

[Lucumo]

That number seems too low.

Yep, it's definitely missing countries.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

For freaking real. This has been something that you couldn't bring up without being renounced as an anti-American "whataboutit" commie socialeftist for decades.

Now it's a conservative position. For some strange reason.

Up is down. Left is brown..

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

For freaking real. This has been something that you couldn't bring up without being renounced as an anti-American "whataboutit" commie socialeftist for decades.

Now it's a conservative position. For some strange reason.

Because Russia are the good guys and always have been.

Like in Reagan’s famous speech:

“Mister Gorbachev, tear down this wall...so I can come over and give you hugs any time I feel like it.”

 

[The Greek Freak]

I'd like to see the threshold criteria for "meddling" please and how it compares to Russia's actions.

I'd be willing to bet our meddling was larger is most if not all of those countries.

In terms of effort and level of shit if not results.

 

[Oersted]

Glad to see CNN reporting on this.
It's ridiculous to think the USA and other superpowers wouldn't be interfering in important events like this.

As ridicolous as Trump making those pay who attacked USA?

I'd be willing to bet our meddling was larger is most if not all of those countries.

In terms of effort and level of shit if not results.

Some of you really need to read about Soviet Union.

 

[remist]

The hostile reaction to this is pretty embarrassing. I watched the segment and there is absolutley no equivalence or excuses made about Russian actions in our elections. Those claiming CNN are engaged in "normalising treason" or "wataboutism" are just projecting.

 

[Caturro]

I mean, obviously Trump being in power is a net negative for every goddamn country in the world, fuck that orange cheeto motherfucker and fuck Russia for interfering.

But it can also be incredibly frustrating to read this forum on the US's foreign policies. This is a fairly liberal leaning forum and so many people still cling to the idea that America is some kind of shining bastion for international justice.

Lol, no.

This is not a leftist forum, it's centrist at best. The Democratic Party is a center to center-right party and since most users here are "progressives" from the US you can immediately tell how skewed to the right everything is.

 

[Seiryoden]

I would chalk something like that up on the Plus-side of history.

You'd chalk Gladio and the Anni di piombo up on the fucking Plus-side?

Fuck my life.

 

[Steel]

Who didn't know about this? Lotsa shit went down in the cold war and a lot of mistakes were made.

 

[captainnapalm]

So, say you're an American in January 2016 who knows all this, wants the country to accept responsibility and avoid these sorts of operations in the future... Who do you support in the upcoming presidential election?

I don't know but in a sense this is a very exciting time for politics. A breakdown and collapse can also lead to renewal.

Trump has shown that a political outsider can get elected to the highest office in the Western world.

Just imagine if a principled, socially and politically aware, reasonably young and active person could come along and run for office with a campaign based on real truth and justice and fairness. He or she could - and probably would - win.

Of course, that's like looking for a unicorn, but these people have to be out there.

 

[Moofers]

Well then if the US has done it then its okay that Russia did it to us so we should just forget about all of it and embrace our new golden-haired emperor.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

Two wrongs don’t make a right.

But somehow 48 wrongs do. Good job, Russia.

 

[Karsticles]

You can be against U.S. government meddling and Russian government meddling. In fact, being against both is logically coherent.

Being against Russian meddling, but for U.S. meddling, is also logically coherent. Logic doesn't dictate moral reciprocity.

 

[Nasbin]

ITT a whole generation with no sense of perspective for the Cold War. The false equivocation of liberal interventionism with the hostile actions of petrol state despots is making a come back.

 

[metalslimer]

The US were no angels..

 

[QuantumBro]

This is not a leftist forum, it's centrist at best. The Democratic Party is a center to center-right party and since most users here are "progressives" from the US you can immediately tell how skewed to the right everything is.

Eh, this place hasn't been a centrist forum since Bish left. There's already issues that most Gaffers are righter on than stormfront users and that's only going to get worse as time goes on.

 

[KorrZ]

All countries will act in their own self interest to the detriment of other countries if so required. This should surprise no one.

 

[sibarraz]

Eh, this place hasn't been a centrist forum since Bish left. There's already issues that most Gaffers are righter on than stormfront users and that's only going to get worse as time goes on.

This forum is still very left for USA standards, for the most part you rarely see threads defending the right wing versus the amount of threads with people thrasing it. That some users share the same point of view with the right doesn't make this forum conservative

Unless you said this viewing it from the outside of the US, then yeah, this forum has always being from the right.

 

[y2dvd]

I think Americans have shown time and time again to be oblivious to it's own actions, or at the very least forgetting it's own actions.
Maybe we need a reminder so we stop doing it ourselves.

 

[Boney]

Eh, this place hasn't been a centrist forum since Bish left. There's already issues that most Gaffers are righter on than stormfront users and that's only going to get worse as time goes on.

Hear, hear.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

ITT a whole generation with no sense of perspective for the Cold War. The false equivocation of liberal interventionism with the hostile actions of petrol state despots is making a come back.

Its ok when the US does it, amirite?

 

[Josh5890]

I am as patriotic as it gets but seriously? Duh. This is nothing new.

Our country's ego has been out of control since WW2 (yes I know America wasn't innocent before that time but they really took it up a notch at the start of the Cold War)

 

[Dopus]

I am as patriotic as it gets but seriously? Duh

Our country's ego has been out of control since WW2 (yes I know America wasn't innocent before that time but they really took it up a notch at the start of the Cold War)

Why are you still patriotic if you're aware that your country is responsible for such despicable acts and evils?

 

[Regulus Tera]

ITT a whole generation with no sense of perspective for the Cold War. The false equivocation of liberal interventionism with the hostile actions of petrol state despots is making a come back.

🤔 is it liberal interventionism when you topple down left leaning Latin American regimes that got democratically elected? What about installing puppet governors in the Middle East for the sake of opening up their oil reserves for American consumption?

 

[Vyrance]

No surprise here

 

[Bolivar687]

🤔 is it liberal interventionism when you topple down left leaning Latin American regimes that got democratically elected? What about installing puppet governors in the Middle East for the sake of opening up their oil reserves for American consumption?

He's talking about capital L Liberalism and modernization theory that took root with Woodrow Wilson and dominated U.S. foreign policy for the 20th Century. It's inherently a globalist ideology that believes the rest of the world will be free and prosperous once they modernize to catch up with and become more like us. While it flirted with marxist perspectives and socialist policies, ultimately the Latin American regimes we toppled in the Cold war were just as intolerable as the theocracies and dictatorships we undermined in the Middle East.

 

[Derwind]

Setting up military bases, installing puppet governments, funding armed coups, destabilizing a region for profit is a very normal thing amongst large world powers.

I just hate that with US exptionalism you have to water the reality down by refering to their brand of foreign intervention as "Freedom" or "Democracy" when it has nothing to do with any of that.

 

[Regulus Tera]

He's talking about capital L Liberalism and modernization theory that took root with Woodrow Wilson and dominated U.S. foreign policy for the 20th Century. It's inherently a globalist ideology that believes the rest of the world will be free and prosperous once they modernize to catch up with and become more like us. While it flirted with marxist perspectives and socialist policies, ultimately the Latin American regimes we toppled in the Cold war were just as intolerable as the theocracies and dictatorships we undermined in the Middle East.

You know what I'm just gonna let Boney handle this one