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[Amibguous Cad]

ITT a whole generation with no sense of perspective for the Cold War. The false equivocation of liberal interventionism with the hostile actions of petrol state despots is making a come back.

Oh yeah.

Trump is waaaay worse than Pinochet.

The most prevalent forms of state-sponsored torture that Chilean prisoners endured were electric shocks, waterboarding, beatings, and sexual abuse. Another common mechanism of torture employed was "disappearing" those who were deemed to be potentially subversive because they adhered to leftist political doctrines. The tactic of "disappearing" the enemies of the Pinochet regime was systematically carried out during the first four years of military rule. The "disappeared" were held in secret, subjected to torture and were often never seen again. Both the National Commission on Political Imprisonment and Torture (Valech Report) and the Commission of Truth and Reconciliation (Rettig Report) approximate that there were around 30,000 victims of human rights abuses in Chile, with 27,255 tortured[2] and 2,279 executed.[3]

One torture method which was very commonly used was the "grill" or "La Parrilla." In this torture, electricity was fed from a standard wall outlet through a control box into two wires each terminating in electrodes. The control box gave the torturers the option of adjusting the voltage being administered to the prisoner. The naked prisoner was stretched out and strapped onto a metal bedframe, or a set of bedsprings, and tied down. He or she was subjected to electrical shocks on several parts of the body, especially on sensitive areas like the genitals and on open wounds

Nothing here but benign liberal interventionism!

You know what I'm just gonna let Boney handle this one

He's got "Bolivar" in his name, I somehow doubt he's in favor of anglo powers mucking around in Latin American elections. He means "intolerable to the Wilsonian, globalist ideology" rather than intolerable period."

(Which, okay, lol, Wilsonianism was based on national self-determination and would abhor these interventions, but at least he's not defending Pinochet).

 

[Arkage]

If it's meddling in the sense of convincing citizens of a foreign country to become a democratic nation by revolt or some other means, I'm for it. The US has made many mistakes in its techniques, but one can hope we get better at it over time. Isolationism doesn't by default make the world a more stable or fairer place, as some in here seem to think.

 

[And_Gignac]

He's talking about capital L Liberalism and modernization theory that took root with Woodrow Wilson and dominated U.S. foreign policy for the 20th Century. It's inherently a globalist ideology that believes the rest of the world will be free and prosperous once they modernize to catch up with and become more like us. While it flirted with marxist perspectives and socialist policies, ultimately the Latin American regimes we toppled in the Cold war were just as intolerable as the theocracies and dictatorships we undermined in the Middle East.

My god...

you are absolutely ignorant of US foreign policy. Not even worth it addressing the ME comment. Learn about Iran's history.

And saying the Allende government was a regime...omg. This is just downright offensive and should be a bannable offense.


No one is saying what the Putin did is okay just because US did way worse shit all over the globe. But it should give you a bit of perspective and time for reflection. to see how your governments have been doing worse stuff without getting electoral consequences.

 

[Stinkles]

Nah. They are simply producing facts.

Unfortunately, the facts don't always support the the Left and it's a hard pill to swallow right now considering we have a sociopath in the White House.

If anything, it gives CNN some credibility again as a legit news organization, and not just a 24/7 Left-Wing anti-conservative TV channel.

The facts don't always support you, but you can't just ignore them. Gotta take the good with the bad.

WTF are you talking about? CNN swung right years ago and has been trying to thread this crazy mixed bag Fox lite bullshit for years. Their CEO has literally admitted it. MSNBC, sure. But CNN? lol.

 

[Maintenance]

He's talking about capital L Liberalism and modernization theory that took root with Woodrow Wilson and dominated U.S. foreign policy for the 20th Century. It's inherently a globalist ideology that believes the rest of the world will be free and prosperous once they modernize to catch up with and become more like us. While it flirted with marxist perspectives and socialist policies, ultimately the Latin American regimes we toppled in the Cold war were just as intolerable as the theocracies and dictatorships we undermined in the Middle East.

I love the smell of bullshit in the morning.

 

[Dopus]

If it's meddling in the sense of convincing citizens of a foreign country to become a democratic nation by revolt or some other means, I'm for it. The US has made many mistakes in its techniques, but one can hope we get better at it over time. Isolationism doesn't by default make the world a more stable or fairer place, as some in here seem to think.

It rarely, if ever has anything to do with making a country more democratic.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

A lot of shit went down in the cold war on both sides of the wall.

We're in a different era of foreign relations and strategy, even if some of the same tactics still apply to failed/failing states (arming rebels who support removing threats to American interests).

Of course, there is a world of difference between hijacking the democracy of the only major super power left that holds the keys to NATO, a regional alliance that has basically kept Europe out of a war for the last 70 years, and backing rebels in a South American country during the cold war.

The global consequences are so vast that it's silly to attempt to compare them.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

If it's meddling in the sense of convincing citizens of a foreign country to become a democratic nation by revolt or some other means, I'm for it. The US has made many mistakes in its techniques, but one can hope we get better at it over time. Isolationism doesn't by default make the world a more stable or fairer place, as some in here seem to think.

Zero self awareness

 

[Acorn]

If it's meddling in the sense of convincing citizens of a foreign country to become a democratic nation by revolt or some other means, I'm for it. The US has made many mistakes in its techniques, but one can hope we get better at it over time. Isolationism doesn't by default make the world a more stable or fairer place, as some in here seem to think.

The hell you talking about, it most often supports juntas and military takeovers like Pinochet, Franco and Noriega before he pissed in the cias cereal.

 

[Tawpgun]

Cold War america and russia did some scuuurrrry shit

 

[Derwind]

If it's meddling in the sense of convincing citizens of a foreign country to become a democratic nation by revolt or some other means, I'm for it. The US has made many mistakes in its techniques, but one can hope we get better at it over time. Isolationism doesn't by default make the world a more stable or fairer place, as some in here seem to think.

Funding civil wars to destabilize a region/nation that coincidentally is a geographic & economic strategic point, has nothing to do with democracy.

Though, it does help convinces your average, suburban American voters to support these distant foreign interventions.

Stop acting like US does its business laterally, the nation being trotted upon doesn't have a say.

 

[Dopus]

Cold War america and russia did some scuuurrrry shit

Because the US only meddled, overthrew, sponsored coups, kidnapped and murdered amongst other crimes during the Cold War. I'm afraid that's not an adequate excuse for US Imperialism. The US empire is utterly disgusting and immoral.

 

[CazTGG]

They're missing one major name: Canada.

John F. Kennedy's personal pollster came to Canada with an assumed name, the blessing of the president and a secret objective: help defeat the Diefenbaker Tories.

Canadians might be surprised by the extent to which political events in this country were shaped by the charismatic U.S. leader, famously assassinated 50 years ago this week.

Helping to elect the Pearson Liberals, for starters, who would go on to introduce a new national flag, expand the welfare state and create medicare, the old-age pension system, and the royal commission on bilingualism.

The Liberals got tactical support, with state-of-the-art polling. Diplomatic rockets rained down on their opponents. And in the heat of an election campaign, the opposition leader was invited to the White House as an honoured guest.

So I guess Kennedy did successfully take down the leader of a country.

 

[sibarraz]

If it's meddling in the sense of convincing citizens of a foreign country to become a democratic nation by revolt or some other means, I'm for it. The US has made many mistakes in its techniques, but one can hope we get better at it over time. Isolationism doesn't by default make the world a more stable or fairer place, as some in here seem to think.

In Chile Allende was the first socialist president in the world elected trough universal vote

Guess how happy was the USA for the triumph of global democracy when this happened

 

[Adam_Vania]

difference is the US does far more than make fake websites and hack emails

 

[Bolivar687]

And saying the Allende government was a regime...omg. This is just downright offensive and should be a bannable offense.

He's got "Bolivar" in his name, I somehow doubt he's in favor of anglo powers mucking around in Latin American elections. He means "intolerable to the Wilsonian, globalist ideology" rather than intolerable period."

(Which, okay, lol, Wilsonianism was based on national self-determination and would abhor these interventions, but at least he's not defending Pinochet).

Thanks - I'm genuinely surprised to see it taken that way.

Also, you can't deny that the interventionism of the Cold War was a natural progression from the internationalist Liberalism Wilson stewarded. His espousal of self-determination is highly debated, given that for every country he advocated for, there were numerous notable omissions. I assume it went toward decolonization, that he assumed they would all become democracies. Wilson himself staged interventions in Latin America all the time:

Wilson's attempt to help Nicaraguan rebels eventually required him to occupy the country by force in 1914. The same blunder occurred in Haiti in 1915 and the Dominican Republic in 1916, when Wilson eventually sent in American troops to occupy the islands. During Wilson's Presidency, the United States also purchased the Virgin Islands from Denmark. It is ironic that despite his loathing of imperialism and his deep belief in self-determination, Wilson resorted to military action in Latin America just as his predecessors had.

 

[radios shipping overview]

82 wrongs don't make a right.

 

[jakonovski]

82 wrongs don't make a right.

81 wrongs is where you take a stand, draw a line in the sand. This far, and no further!

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

The UK?

Harold Wilson.

 

[Condom]

Wow, good job...CNN? Refreshing to see this coming from a US channel.

 

[Skyball Paint]

There's no excuse for the US interfering in foreign elections, it is absolutely heinous. That said, what happened to the US is not justice, the Americans who suffer as a result of Russian interference are the ones with the least privilege, not the guilty.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Harold Wilson.

Amusing, because they weren't successful anyway.

 

[Boney]

You know what I'm just gonna let Boney handle this one

Don't drag me into this mess.

 

[Sotha_Sil]

I'd like to see the threshold criteria for "meddling" please and how it compares to Russia's actions.

Russia's actions belong in the kiddie pool compared to some of ours. As a poster above said, see Iran. Or any number of South American elections.

 

[pixelation]

Are they trying to make it seem like Russia doing it to the US is okey (deserved even) then?, are they trying to normalize this shit?

 

[radios shipping overview]

81 wrongs is where you take a stand, draw a line in the sand. This far, and no further!

I mean, what do you want me to say? That all election meddling is okay if it's done to somebody who's done it in the past? Eye for an eye? Or that all election meddling is bad?

It's worth noting that not every instance of US election meddling involved murder, illegal actions, dirty tricks, or funding extremists (though there was plenty of that). Many involved supporting democratic processes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_electoral_intervention

In their 2012 study, Corstange and Marinov theorized in two types of foreign intervention:[3] partisan intervention, where the foreign power takes a public stance on its support for one side, and process intervention, where the foreign power seeks "to support the rules of democratic contestation, irrespective of who wins"

And it's interesting that the "81 different elections" study has been both picked up by sites like Zerohedge and Gateway Pundit and discussed in a Chomsky interview by Truth-Out.

 

[EMT0]

Are they trying to make it seem like Russia doing it to the US is okey (deserved even) then?, are they trying to normalize this shit?

Nah. It's kicking America while it's down. With a very well deserved kick in the hopes that the lesson sticks. Hell, this is just karma.

 

[jstripes]

They're missing one major name: Canada.

So I guess Kennedy did successfully take down the leader of a country.

Diefenbaker essentially told JFK to go fuck himself at one point, so I guess he took that a bit personally.

 

[ForkNetwork]

Peru?

What the fuck?

 

[Jeff6851]

Yeah, in 1996 the Russians hated capitalism so much and wanted a return to communism so the US stepped in and got Yeltsin re-elected despite having single digit numbers.

Communism is popular, it's just that imperialism is a helluva drug.

 

[Anticol]

Chile..it was like their own personal 9/11..

Well if you take away the fact that 38k more people died in Chile, then yes.

 

[Real Hero]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf42k5N-7wg

 

[jakonovski]

I mean, what do you want me to say? That all election meddling is okay if it's done to somebody who's done it in the past? Eye for an eye? Or that all election meddling is bad?

It's worth noting that not every instance of US election meddling involved murder, illegal actions, dirty tricks, or funding extremists (though there was plenty of that). Many involved supporting democratic processes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_electoral_intervention



And it's interesting that the "81 different elections" study has been both picked up by sites like Zerohedge and Gateway Pundit and discussed in a Chomsky interview by Truth-Out.

You don't have to say anything. I just wish Americans genuinely gave a shit the next time their leaders try to do something like that.

 

[TheLaughingStock]

CNN posted that? Surprising...

 

[Anticol]

You don't have to say anything. I just wish Americans genuinely gave a shit the next time their leaders try to do something like that.

Hahahaha oh man, just take a look at the thread and the comments by tthe americans...

 

[Joe T.]

Are they trying to make it seem like Russia doing it to the US is okey (deserved even) then?, are they trying to normalize this shit?

If that was their aim they'd be airing it on TV every 30 minutes with panelists discussing it ad nauseam. Good luck getting CNN to take the spotlight off Trump for that long.

 

[Elaugaufein]

This strikes me as deliberately using the loosest possible definition of meddling ever in order to get as big a list as possible.

There's some evidence of America meddling with Australia during the Whitlam period (particularly the Dismissal) but Australia is unlisted. So it's not the loosest at least.

 

[WriterGK]

Peru?

What the fuck?

I thought they had a dictator. So I googled it and I was right:

https://www.google.nl/search?q=Albe...efox-b-ab&gfe_rd=cr&ei=o2RyWbr0HO2E8QftgY7YBQ

So I can imagine Peru being meddled in by the USA indeed

 

[Polari]

He's talking about capital L Liberalism and modernization theory that took root with Woodrow Wilson and dominated U.S. foreign policy for the 20th Century. It's inherently a globalist ideology that believes the rest of the world will be free and prosperous once they modernize to catch up with and become more like us. While it flirted with marxist perspectives and socialist policies, ultimately the Latin American regimes we toppled in the Cold war were just as intolerable as the theocracies and dictatorships we undermined in the Middle East.

What about the brutal dictatorships the US has propped up? E.g.

The 1953 Iranian coup d'état, known in Iran as the 28 Mordad coup (Persian: کودتای ۲۸ مرداد‎&#8206, was the overthrow of the democratically elected Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh in favour of strengthening the monarchical rule of Mohammad Reza Pahlavi on 19 August 1953, orchestrated by the United Kingdom (under the name "Operation Boot") and the United States (under the name TPAJAX Project[5] or "Operation Ajax").

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'état

 

[Cess007]

Is there a reason of why Mexico is not on that list? or it's because too obvious to even include it?

 

[Skyball Paint]

You don't have to say anything. I just wish Americans genuinely gave a shit the next time their leaders try to do something like that.

And I wish people would give a shit about the plight of women, people of color, and LGBTQ folk who are living in Trump's America, instead of calling their pain "karmic justice".

 

[LinkAndEpona]

A nasty truth about America

 

[killer rin]

Everyone knew about the smaller developing nations, but holy shit, some of those are some pretty major first world countries, some of which are massive allies to the USA

This is not a leftist forum, it's centrist at best. The Democratic Party is a center to center-right party and since most users here are "progressives" from the US you can immediately tell how skewed to the right everything is.

I would argue that NeoGaf has a ton of members not from the USA and given that the USA hovers far right compared to every other country the forum is going to be protected somewhat from right-wing viewpoints coming into being

 

[jakonovski]

And I wish people would give a shit about the plight of women, people of color, and LGBTQ folk who are living in Trump's America, instead of calling their pain "karmic justice".

Can't do shit about that as a foreigner, and I have a sneaking suspicion that improving minority relations in America doesn't actually reduce meddling in foreign affairs. The latter would take priority (not that I actually do anything about that either).

 

[Elaugaufein]

Is there a reason of why Mexico is not on that list? or it's because too obvious to even include it?

I think it's only including countries where there's direct evidence of meddling in elections themselves. There's several countries that could arguably be included if you loosened the restrictions.

 

[iamverificationimage]

I don't see Ireland there, So that's good.

 

[TomWaitsForNoMan]

Well if you take away the fact that 38k more people died in Chile, then yes.

The point is it happened on 11th September

 

[Budi]

What a bunch of assholes.

 

[Austriacus]

I thought they had a dictator. So I googled it and I was right:

https://www.google.nl/search?q=Albe...efox-b-ab&gfe_rd=cr&ei=o2RyWbr0HO2E8QftgY7YBQ

So I can imagine Peru being meddled in by the USA indeed

Currently we are an American puppet state in all but name that is transitioning to a Chinese puppet state.

Everyone meddles in perus goverment, all members of Congress have a price, and they are fucking cheap.

Oh and the daughter of that dictator almost won last election as well, lmao.

 

[Hellwarden]

The rest of the world doesn't deserve the evil America delivers upon it.

Americans don't deserve Trump.