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Co-Director of Dishonored: 'Call of Duty makes gamers stupid'
- Thread starter Kingsora
- Start date
DragonKnight
Member
I'd have to argue. Many of my friends are CoD crazy but won't try Portal 2 because it "looks too hard" and they "hate that thinking shit"
stuminus3 said:
I don't disagree with you that you shouldn't care TOO much. I'm all about moderation.
The problem is our society/world rewards popularity and not objective quality. It's exaggerated within the games industry especially because making a game with contemporary graphical power requires significant funding for art assets; given some sort of procedural art generation development in the next 40 years it would likely be far less of an issue and tastes could be divergent without impacting the ability for brilliant designers to implement a vision.
Bumblebeetuna
Member
H3xum said:
How does personal taste make someone "stupid"? Is a shooter fan who only plays games like Half-Life, Deus Ex, or Bioshock stupid because they avoid shooters like Call of Duty, Killzone, Gears, etc etc? Most CoD fans are likely not going to be bothered with playing Bioshock because it is a SP oriented game and CoD is a MP oriented game. Are the many people who bought Bioshock 2 for the SP and completely ignored the MP stupid?
And of course this doesn't even bring into account people who enjoy both. I love CoD and games like Bioshock. Not possible according to this guy. It's one thing to read that type of idiocy on message boards from bitter fans of other shooters/Activision haters. It's another thing entirely to hear it from the director of another shooter.
iKeepPlaying
Banned
Serious Sam doesn't take it seriously.Nome said:
But CoD do so.
It tries to be Shakespeare, in terms of depth. But it just falls as a generic hollywood-esque C rated movie.
The point of the man, is that fans of modern CoD, think that it's "2deep4u". When it's shallow as fuck.
LiK said:
I can stand shallow popcorn flicks, but I know they are not quality experiences. They're just mindless entertainment. That's fine and all, but if I measure the experience in terms of good/bad, then I'd obviously call a spade a spade. And that's what most people I assume are doing when they claim that meaningful game is a better* experience than a shallow one?
I mean wouldn't you agree that Taxi Driver is better film than, say, Tranformers?
*Obviously "better" needs a definition, but I think we can assume it's a pretty intuitive concept considering the discussion.
:lol
Sounds like a typical whiney GAFer who constantly cries about "dudebro" games. Not surprised to see this dev's comments get so much support here.
The guy should focus on making his game the best in can be, not trying to tear down the top dog, or its fans. Talk about why your game is awesome, not why you think your competition is so damn successful.
Sounds like a typical whiney GAFer who constantly cries about "dudebro" games. Not surprised to see this dev's comments get so much support here.
The guy should focus on making his game the best in can be, not trying to tear down the top dog, or its fans. Talk about why your game is awesome, not why you think your competition is so damn successful.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Does Super Mario Bros make people stupid too? Easy. Instant gratification. Streamlined. Popular. Damn you Nintendo you created a generation of stupid gamers 25 years ago!
Haha, by thinking I don't mean pondering real hard philosophy more than just engaging the mind of the player during gameplay. Look in the FPS genre for examples. Crysis isn't exactly Hamlet, but it provides the player with plenty of options, from weapon mods to suit powers to multiple angles to approach just about any target, that are constantly engaging the player in every encounter. CoD's gameplay options are much more limited in comparison, because the game relies on flash and style more than real substantive gameplay.Steve Youngblood said:
People like what they like and if you like CoD then more power to you, but on the other hand I'm not going to bite my tongue and refuse to criticize what I see as the basest form of game design.
Yeah, sure. I'd argue that the problem with Call of Duty's multiplayer (MW2 specifically) is unbalanced design choices more than anything._Alkaline_ said:
_Alkaline_
Member
tiff said:
Agreed. Black Ops was far more balanced, creating a slower and more difficult game. Just a shame it didn't run nearly as well as its predecessor.
IndieJones
Member
This guy is hedging his bets and has a pre-made excuse for his game selling a fraction of a fraction... of a fraction of what CoD sells.
flyinpiranha
Member
Angry Fork said:
Keep telling yourself that. He's just using the "any press is good press" theory and decided to hate on a game with the largest audience.
I haven't even played BLOPs but I enjoyed 4/MW2 ... it didn't hamper my experience with any other game.
I don't give a shit if he doesn't like COD, that's his opinion. What I do (sort of - enough to post at least) give a shit about is his idea of games without "critical thinking" making people too stupid to enjoy his game. That's just pretentious and idiotic.
Every game out there can be beaten by a 12 year old. I'm sure some 12 year old will be able to tackle the amazing amount of thought and planning and strategery his game is going to throw at him.
"Hrm, nobody is talking about my game, I know! CALL OF DUTY something something STUPID something something"
And it worked, the "critically thinking" masses will flock to it for that brain exercise they need from their gaming after playing dose dumb gamez.
WrenchNinja
Member
I hated things before hating things were cool.Lime said:
gutter_trash
Banned
i would not consider SMB1 and SMB3 to be ''easy''Ninja Scooter said:
you grew up on them and you know those games inside out but they are not easy!
get a gamer born in the late 90s to play original SMB and SMB3 and watch him die
flyinpiranha
Member
tiff said:
It's obvious by your posts you're too smart for it.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Super Mario Bros 1 is easy man. The difficulty in later levels is remedied with pattern memorization and timing. Those are basic skills any gamer has. Give a Halo/CoD playing 13 year old SMB1 and he'll have it beat in a couple of hours. Let's not overrate the difficulty here.gutter_trash said:
flyinpiranha said:
Maybe you could open up your mind to objectively analyze what he's actually trying to say? You are a smart person, right? Throw out the 'stupid' part (Which could just be a intentionally inflammatory translation)
Is there no validity to the argument that COD games are primarily scripted affairs that do not in any way 'train' the player to approach situations with a vast number of possible solutions and incredible variety of player choice that determines which of those approaches are possible?
Do you disagree that many people (Not all, stop using yourself as the anecdotal example take a broader perspective) can become used to a particular experience and when experiencing something that differs greatly in the expectations of the player will react negatively to it?
iKeepPlaying
Banned
Ninja Scooter said:
Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
Ninja Scooter
Member
Depends on whether or not he uses the warp pipes.iKeepPlaying said:
Hurtin4Certain
Neo Member
hyper-realistic, war-glorifying, military-glorifying first person shooter
It might not be making people stupid, but it sure isn't doing the human race any favors.
COD2 and MW1 were enough for me. I've moved on.
It might not be making people stupid, but it sure isn't doing the human race any favors.
COD2 and MW1 were enough for me. I've moved on.
gutter_trash
Banned
I decidly quit MW1 on the first tanker stage because my NPC allies were taking out all the tangos for me.. I got angry and turned off the game and never played a COD since because I hate it when a shooter decides that I am being too cautious and forces my NPC allies to kill all enemiesVariantX said:
Rickenslacker
Banned
I wouldn't say Bioshock made players think, maybe from the themes present but certainly not the game design. I'm interested in seeing what comes out of Dishonored, I haven't heard much about it other than Harvey Smith working on it which alone has me in hopes of something better than average.
But yeah, CoD is a pretty stupid game in just about all ways. I don't think that's a bad thing on its own though, mindless fun is still good in its own right. However when it starts spreading a primary design approach, then it becomes concerning.
But yeah, CoD is a pretty stupid game in just about all ways. I don't think that's a bad thing on its own though, mindless fun is still good in its own right. However when it starts spreading a primary design approach, then it becomes concerning.
iKeepPlaying
Banned
Ninja Scooter said:
But even if you don't. SMB won't take you more than 30 minutes. If you use the warp pipes, it takes... 6 or 7 minutes.
PepsimanVsJoe
Member
We spent our childhood playing Mario so this is expected.iKeepPlaying said:
_Alkaline_
Member
iKeepPlaying said:
SMB isn't a breeze. I reckon a lot on new players, even on GAF, would struggle with parts of World 8 for sure.
flyinpiranha
Member
erragal said:
See, here's the problem ... you are assuming gaming (and all games within) are some complicated medium where if we don't hone our skills on the more difficult games we don't stand a chance.
I'm not arguing what COD is, I'm arguing against his theory of what it makes us.
I mean, do you honestly think Dishonored (or ANY game for that matter) is so difficult where playing Peggle or COD or even a racing game is going to make these decisions so difficult we'll never get past the first level?
Your last paragraph is just obvious. Of course if people aren't enjoying it or it's different from what they like they will react negatively. Expectations are a completely different beast. If he chooses to advertise Dishonored like a shooter-fest then yeah, I hope people react negatively when it's not. But who are these people going into this game expecting it to be COD when nothing has been advertised (for what I've seen) to reinforce this?
I mean honestly, what does the existence of one game hinder in his? Nothing, except competition.
I'm sure you're a smart person, is it too much to have a little faith in the gaming community to the extent where they can actually *gasp* play different games?
The way I read that is that if I enjoy "stupid" games I won't be able to understand his. That's just fucking stupid.
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
haha so true. I got my kids to play Super Mario World and they were frustrated to the point of quitting in about 10 minutes.gutter_trash said:
flyinpiranha
Member
bob_arctor said:
My 4 year old (now 6) had my old SNES and he loved SMW, had troubles on certain levels but he did amazingly well and hates that we don't have the SNES hooked up to an old TV now.
In fact, all he plays are Super Mario games on his old GBA SP, along with Zelda and some other games.
He's 100% right but he ruined his point by pointing out Bioshock as some sort of super complex gamer's game, especially since he used it with Deus Ex in the same sentence.
That doesn't take away from what his point was though. I dare someone to prove that COD hasn't dumbed the entire industry down, from the players to the devs chasing that 10 million mark for every and any game.
And I'm really looking forward to Dishonored. The concept sounds amazing but these aren't the easiest types of games to get right.
That doesn't take away from what his point was though. I dare someone to prove that COD hasn't dumbed the entire industry down, from the players to the devs chasing that 10 million mark for every and any game.
And I'm really looking forward to Dishonored. The concept sounds amazing but these aren't the easiest types of games to get right.
darkpaladinmfc
Member
This is probably the best way to word it.Grinchy said:
fabricated backlash
Member
So does his game make gamers smarter?
What a load of bullshit.
What a load of bullshit.
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
I'm also surprised Vanquish hasn't been mentioned yet. That's a game whose commercial failure made me hate everyone that found it too much to handle. It's an irrational hate of course, replete with "You're playing it wrong!!" but at least it's learning curve lends some credence to the inept gamer stereotype.
Neuromancer
Member
The difference is, Serious Sam knows it's stupid. A little self awareness goes a long way.Nome said:
Presumably, it makes you think a little.boris feinbrand said:
I'm surprised at some of the reactions in here. Isn't this the same forum that complains about the dudebroization of Mass Effect? What do you think is responsible for that trend?
I don't hate COD. But I have played MW1, WAW and Blops and sometimes the games actually, literally do play themselves. There is almost always a straight line you go down, with no variance between playthroughs. It's fun for what it is, but it's no mental stimulant. It has basic, mass appeal.
I'm talking single-player here, as I am sure he is too, since Dishonored is probably a SP-only game. I think you can argue multiplayer matches can make you a better gamer, but I think that is not his point.
Like I and others have said - decent point, poorly worded (or poorly translated, maybe.)
I don't hate COD. But I have played MW1, WAW and Blops and sometimes the games actually, literally do play themselves. There is almost always a straight line you go down, with no variance between playthroughs. It's fun for what it is, but it's no mental stimulant. It has basic, mass appeal.
I'm talking single-player here, as I am sure he is too, since Dishonored is probably a SP-only game. I think you can argue multiplayer matches can make you a better gamer, but I think that is not his point.
Like I and others have said - decent point, poorly worded (or poorly translated, maybe.)
Riposte
Member
I jumped the gun. Apparently it was the guy writing the English article who listed the other games. The Dishonored dev hasn't really stated his reasoning at all. (The real reason why the article writer listed those two games is that they are not military or space military themed shooters and in his head that means they are smarter.)
darkpaladinmfc
Member
Good sales doesn't mean a good game...IndieJones said:
People who play Call of Duty are not stupid and playing Call of Duty does not make you stupid. Anyone who says otherwise displays immaturity, possible insecurity.
The popularity of Call of Duty has lead other developers into oversaturating the market and changing games into more accessible ones. Which is a bad thing as variety of genres (and even with genres that are not shooter change into something else) and complexity seem to suffer. Although Games are still great, and a lot of those which change based on the most accessible model still manage to be very good games. Or even have some improvements over previous ones. But I would like less oversaturation of the market, more variety and no RPG like the likes of DA2.
The popularity of Call of Duty has lead other developers into oversaturating the market and changing games into more accessible ones. Which is a bad thing as variety of genres (and even with genres that are not shooter change into something else) and complexity seem to suffer. Although Games are still great, and a lot of those which change based on the most accessible model still manage to be very good games. Or even have some improvements over previous ones. But I would like less oversaturation of the market, more variety and no RPG like the likes of DA2.