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[ZephyrFate]

Like I said in the first thread: option C. There is a long and complex historical tradition of third (or more) genders in various cultures from around the globe.

Travestis, berdaches, hijra, two-spirits...

yep. The West just likes to believe it isn't there, when it is.

 

[BocoDragon]

The polite term is now girlgentleman.

 

[Koodo]

I guess the determining factor is that he was actually visiting Thailand...that's where the pictures were from iirc

1. He obviously knows how to use quotes, as evidence by the other short lived thread. Ladyboy would have been a very appropriate moment to use quotes, to signify the word is not what it looks like.
2. Still does not answer for "AMAZING, THEY ALMOST FOOLED ME. SURPRISE!"


Also: It's cute and easy to say "this isn't that important, calm down." These kind of destructive messages appear unharmful to the non affected masses until it is pointed out, and it is absolutely sad when someone doesn't even take a second to think about what they said and perhaps learn.

 

[Seda]

well yes and I understand and even I as a gay man will use the term faggot every now and then because I find homophobic slurs hilarious and worthy of being made fun of in general so i get your point, but I rarely use it in real life around gay guys I know if only because while I may be transparent when it comes to homophobic slurs they may not be

Alright. I've never had any lgbt friends (I've not personally known many (openly) lgbt people, period). So if I seem somewhat more insensitive it may just because it seems more foreign to me.

 

[ZephyrFate]

You should try and meet some people of the LGBT community. You'd be surprised how many doors it'll open for your perspective.

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

No, it's a little bit like plastic surgery if you will. A transgendered person's body image does not fit with their mental or emotional makeup. Having the surgery and the hormone therapy is the way they adjust to that.

There is even a case relatively recently where someone who was born male had an accident during their circumcision and their penis was damaged, so the parents raised them as a girl - but they never identified as a girl even though there was no way they could know they were a boy. They just KNEW innately that they were a boy and acted out and rebelled against being raised as a girl from a young age.

The physical reality matching the mental and emotional reality is good for mental health, but it's not what defines you as male or female.

Wait? How does this help you're point? He was born a male with a penis and thought like a male. He was not born a female, they just cut his penis off and told him he was a girl. I'm sure there are examples that benefit your view but this is not one of them.

edit: Oh ok I think I get what your saying. I think your saying that transgenders change their sex to feel at home? Because the boy,

Spoiler

while technically transgendered he was born a boy

did not feel at home when he was a girl so he rebelled. But still I think you need a better example because it really doesn't help what you said earlier.

 

[dudeworld]

What is ....

 

[NovemberMike]

Sex =/= gender

I think the current terminology is completely inadequate. Right now we have the sex and gender difference, but I feel like there should probably also be a term for the level of "passing" (I don't like putting it that way, but the general cultural gender of the person). In parts of SE Asia you'll have what is essentially a third cultural gender that the person is associated with. You'll also have cases like chromosomal males with Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome that are physically female from birth and are considered female by western culture.

 

[Seda]

Honestly, I think it shows some character that you can admit that (at least I hope that's what you're saying) your thinking was based on a pre-conceived prejudice about people. That is a very important step to over coming that kind of ignorance.

I realize that sounds a little fatuous but, I DO respect it. I've talked to a few TG people and I've found them to be warm, funny, and wonderful people. It's probably a good idea to keep in mind when you think about separating them from others that - they're just like everyone else. But because of a minor difference that isn't going to affect the average person's interactions with them most of the time they get discriminated against and emotionally abused more than most other people.

I wish people would make more of an effort to meet different sorts of people before coming to conclusions about them.

Thanks, this is good to hear, I don't mean to make any enemies.

 

[apocalidiot]

 

[Gaborn]

Wait? How does this help you're point? He was born a male with a penis and thought like a male. He was not born a female, they just cut his penis off and told him he was a girl. I'm sure there are examples that benefit your view but this is not one of them.

My point is he KNEW he was male. He couldn't have lived as a female - because he wasn't. Similarly, transgendered people can't live as their biological sex - because they IDENTIFY the opposite gender in a deep and fundamental way. So, if people were right that gender was "chosen" or "developed" it would make sense you could raise someone essentially from birth as either a boy or a girl - but in that case we have documentation of someone who was essentially changed against their will and put into severe depression because of it.

 

[TheKaeptain]

Honestly, I think it shows some character that you can admit that (at least I hope that's what you're saying) your thinking was based on a pre-conceived prejudice about people. That is a very important step to over coming that kind of ignorance.

As someone that was raised in an area where gay people were not tolerated, I can say that when I was young most of my hatred for them came from outside influences. I can also say that after letting go of the ignorance it really made me respect everyone more as human beings. There is no real difference between anybody. We all human. Of course this was when I was still a teen.

I realize that sounds a little fatuous but, I DO respect it. I've talked to a few TG people and I've found them to be warm, funny, and wonderful people. It's probably a good idea to keep in mind when you think about separating them from others that - they're just like everyone else. But because of a minor difference that isn't going to affect the average person's interactions with them most of the time they get discriminated against and emotionally abused more than most other people.

I wish people would make more of an effort to meet different sorts of people before coming to conclusions about them.

You can say this about most people that are discriminated against.

 

[ZephyrFate]

I think the current terminology is completely inadequate. Right now we have the sex and gender difference, but I feel like there should probably also be a term for the level of "passing" (I don't like putting it that way, but the general cultural gender of the person). In parts of SE Asia you'll have what is essentially a third cultural gender that the person is associated with. You'll also have cases like chromosomal males with Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome that are physically female from birth and are considered female by western culture.

Well I think what he's trying to say is that on a social level, sex is biological whereas gender is totally a cultural construct. The only reason we have a dialectic of two 'genders' is because we have culturally created an atmosphere for this to permeate, when it reality many people fall in between the two.

 

[Burger]

"Fascinating creatures though, looks like a lady but, ah, really it's a man."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQNzLBTCEDI&feature=related

 

[Devolution]

bookmarking will go over it on my six day weekend.

Yeah I didn't really know as much about intersexed people until I ran across the novel Middlesex and started reading up about it.

 

[Red]

Well I think what he's trying to say is that on a social level, sex is biological whereas gender is totally a cultural construct. The only reason we have a dialectic of two 'genders' is because we have culturally created an atmosphere for this to permeate, when it reality many people fall in between the two.

Spot on. Sex is the genital whatzit, gender is a person's identity. I think those two categories are enough, but they need to be opened up past simple dichotomies. There is a lot more than just male/female.

 

[Door2Dawn]

So.. he said "ladyboy"? Is that what everyone was upset about?

 

[ZephyrFate]

So.. he said "ladyboy"? Is that what everyone was upset about?

yes. i'm waiting to hear your reaction to this.

 

[DominoKid]

I think it stemmed from a tendency to want to distinguish them apart i guess

ugh I'm digging a hole here. I feel lonely as a college-age republican and don't do well in crowds :/

please hand me a shovel gaf

Bail out. its the only way. no point spitting in the wind.

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

My point is he KNEW he was male. He couldn't have lived as a female - because he wasn't. Similarly, transgendered people can't live as their biological sex - because they IDENTIFY the opposite gender in a deep and fundamental way. So, if people were right that gender was "chosen" or "developed" it would make sense you could raise someone essentially from birth as either a boy or a girl - but in that case we have documentation of someone who was essentially changed against their will and put into severe depression because of it.

Yeah I understand that, but you shouldn't use

someone that was born a boy, who was made into a girl by parents, knowing that he was a boy all along even though no one told him

as an example for:

someone born a boy, that grew up as a boy, knowing that she was a girl even though no one told her.

You see the difference?

The only connection the two stories share are that are that they both KNEW they couldn't live like they were and they were something else-which can be said of anything or anyone.

The two ideas are fundamentally different. Usually, transgendered folks identify with the gender opposite of their birth sex. The example you provided did not. The boy identified with his birth sex. What happens in between is irrelevant. Like I said I now understand what you were trying to say but you should have used a better example.

 

[lightless_shado]

 

[Shouta]

I didn't know they had White Castle in Thailand. And where's Harold?

 

[Crumpet Trumpet]

I didn't know they had White Castle in Thailand. And where's Harold?

oh. well then

 

[Gaborn]

Yeah I understand that, but you shouldn't use

someone that was born a boy, who was made into a girl by parents, knowing that he was a boy all along even though no one told him

as an example for:

someone born a boy, that grew up as a boy, knowing that she was a girl even though no one told her.

You see the difference?

The only connection the two stories share are that are that they both KNEW they couldn't live like they were and they were something else-which can be said of anything or anyone.

The two ideas are fundamentally different. Usually, transgendered folks identify with the gender opposite of their birth sex. The example you provided did not. The boy identified with his birth sex. What happens in between is irrelevant. Like I said I now understand what you were trying to say but you should have used a better example.

I think it's apt in the sense that some people seem to believe gender is a fluid concept beyond the linguistic difficulties of people being on a spectrum. That is, that someone "chooses" to "change" their gender. I agree the example is NOT ideal and I never claimed it was. I think what it demonstrates though is that gender is often more fixed and NOT based on what is "physically" present but rather your emotional and psychological perceptions that encompass in a complex way your gender identity.

Basically I'm saying that changing the wrapping doesn't change the gender. A person that is transgender should not be understood to be changing their gender - because they are that gender, it's just a fact that you might have been unaware of before. Similarly David Reimer's parents did not change their son's gender by raising him as a girl, he was male.

 

[Scrow]

BTW, I was being completely misunderstood in the ladyboy thread, probably due to my poor use of quotation marks. I was absolutely not trying to mock them.

I just thought it was interesting that the girls looked attractive compared to the stereotypical images of drag queens and transgendered people in the media. I could have easily been fooled - I wouldn't have known that they were ladyboys if I hadn't been told.

EDIT:

Now, I think I understand... you're upset that I used the word "ladyboy". That's the commonly-used term in Thailand, and I didn't intend for it to be interpreted as a slur. (see article below)

"...It is most often rendered as ladyboy in English conversation with Thais and this latter expression has become popular across South East Asia..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathoey

don't worry dude, sometimes GAF is overly sensitive and feels like it needs to white knight everything

Okay it's used in Thailand. Fine. Doesn't change the fact that the tone of your post in that thread was totally condescending

it really wasn't. you just interpreted it that way.

 

[Crumpet Trumpet]

don't worry dude, sometimes GAF is overly sensitive and feels like it needs to white knight everything

it really wasn't. you just interpreted it that way.

Oh okay then. So what was the purpose of the thread besides "hey look at these transsexuals! they actually look like women LOL"

Nope, you can continue overusing the phrase "white knight" when it isn't applicable though.

 

[gerg]

Look, even if you accept that using the term "lady-boy" is meant inoffensively - you're not being fooled. A transgendered person does not start out as one gender and for them "become" another. They're born mentally and emotionally different than than their birth sex. They don't "become" girls they ARE girls who just happened to be born with a penis. "Fooled" is almost more offensive than "ladyboy" because it suggests there is something wrong with them.

"Fooled" might carry some negative connotation which isn't necessary, but I don't see what's so offensive about saying that he could have been "fooled" into thinking that the woman he saw didn't decide to have surgery to more fully realise their (lifelong) image of themselves. That's the point - many transgendered women (and men) have such good surgery that they look as though they didn't need to have it. And I think it's great.

 

[Scrow]

Oh okay then. So what was the purpose of the thread besides "hey look at these transsexuals! they actually look like women LOL"

with that mock quote, you're just imposing your own interpretation onto the intentions he has already clearly stated... and they're not the same.

Nope, you can continue overusing the phrase "white knight" when it isn't applicable though.

i'm overusing the term? i think that's the first time i've used it on GAF (or anywhere else for that matter).

and in this context, it's completely applicable to how GAF is overreacting.

but i never used the term to refer directly to you however, i was a general statement to gaf as whole, so i can only imagine you've picked that comment out because you feel it refers to you. i wonder why.

 

[HappyBivouac]

Man, using the word "fooled" is not derogatory in any way, nor does it imply that there is something wrong with the transgendered person being talked about. It is simply saying "Man, I thought that that person was biologically one sex, but they turned out to be the other!" That's literally all it's saying.

If it's unreasonable to generally go about daily life with the assumption of commonly established sex/gender identities, with the understanding that they may not apply to 100% of people, then get me off this ship cause I don't know what to think anymore. If I see someone who totally looks like a woman to me, but is actually a man, it's safe to say I am being "fooled;" not to say that the person was trying to fool me, had any malicious intent, or was doing anything wrong whatsoever; that's just simply the fact of what happened in that scenario.

As an addendum, I do understand that transgendered people tend to take a lot of shit, get harassed, even get beat up both verbally and physically, so it is generally a good rule to be extra careful with word choice. However, taking everything at face value, I don't think anything really offensive has been said here.

 

[Crumpet Trumpet]

with that mock quote, you're just imposing your own interpretation onto the intentions he has already clearly stated... and they're not the same.

Yeah you're right there. Still, can you blame me for finding the idea of a thread showing off images of transsexuals in an incredulous light kind of unsettling? They're people, not endangered animals.

i'm overusing the term? i think that's the first time i've used it on GAF (or anywhere else for that matter).

and in this context, it's completely applicable to how GAF is overreacting.

but i never used the term to refer directly to you however, i was a general statement to gaf as whole, so i can only imagine you've picked that comment out because you feel it refers to you. i wonder why.

I probably shouldn't have directed that at you specifically. I've just noticed a general uptick of that phrase being used here to diminish the defense of people who are only trying to help fight prejudice. It kind of bothers me, that's all

 

[HappyBivouac]

And yeah, "white knight" is a shitty concept rooted in the worst kind of group mentality. Can't we just have open discussion with everyone holding up their thoughts at face value?

 

[Strike]

 

[Scrow]

Yeah you're right there. Still, can you blame me for finding the idea of a thread showing off images of transsexuals in an incredulous light kind of unsettling? They're people, not endangered animals.

yes they're people, but they're a rare kind of people, especially in western countries. that makes them fascinating in a way. i'm not going to get angry at someone for being intrigued by them and marvel at how successfully they pull it off. i mean, it really is amazing how they're able to change their gender so convincingly (in some cases). there's nothing wrong with sharing your amazement.

if people get disrespectful, derogatory and prejudice about their life choices, then yeah, i completely agree that it's not cool, but i never felt that the OP did that.

I probably shouldn't have directed that at you specifically. I've just noticed a general uptick of that phrase being used here to diminish the defense of people who are only trying to help fight prejudice. It kind of bothers me, that's all

like anything, if it gets overused and used inappropriately, it loses its meaning.

 

[Koodo]

If it's unreasonable to generally go about daily life with the assumption of commonly established sex/gender identities, with the understanding that they may not apply to 100% of people, then get me off this ship cause I don't know what to think anymore. If I see someone who totally looks like a woman to me, but is actually a man, it's safe to say I am being "fooled;" not to say that the person was trying to fool me, had any malicious intent, or was doing anything wrong whatsoever; that's just simply the fact of what happened in that scenario.

But that's the thing: they are not, nor do case studies on transgendered people show they want to be associated with, being a man. Saying they "fooled me" is saying: you are a man that can convincingly pass as a woman, and that's a ridiculous thing to say.

Example: I was born a man, look like a man and identify as one. Would you tell me I am convincingly playing a man? No, that's just silly, and the same goes for transgendered people: they are not playing as a different sex, they are becoming that sex. It's not about being convinced but about respecting what they identify with.

 

[norinrad]

If eminem says he was not white, but he was a black man who happen to be born with white skin you wouldn't think he was bring ridiculous?

hahaha what the hell?

 

[tiff]

I thought calling them "ladies" was kinda weird. Like, what's with the quotes?

 

[AntonDaniel]

I thought calling them "ladies" was kinda weird. Like, what's with the quotes?

poor use of quotes.. my bad.

 

[HappyBivouac]

But that's the thing: they are not, nor do case studies on transgendered people show they want to be associated with, being a man. Saying they "fooled me" is saying: you are a man that can convincingly pass as a woman, and that's a ridiculous thing to say.

Example: I was born a man, look like a man and identify as one. Would you tell me I am convincingly playing a man? No, that's just silly, and the same goes for transgendered people: they are not playing as a different sex, they are becoming that sex. It's not about being convinced but about respecting what they identify with.

If you are biologically a man, then you're biologically a man. You can have surgery and change your biological sex (for the most part) but if you're transgendered and choose not to, then yes there is an in-congruency between your biological sex and your gender. The word "fooled" comes into play when you see a woman and assume she doesn't have a penis, yet, in this scenario, she actually does. Isn't that reasonable?

I subscribe to the idea that every person has both a sex and a gender; sex being the physical/biological side, gender being the psychological/identity (perhaps also hormonal) side. This has always been the best and easiest way to look at it.

 

[ZephyrFate]

If you are biologically a man, then you're biologically a man. You can have surgery and change your biological sex (for the most part) but if you're transgendered and choose not to, then yes there is an in-congruency between your biological sex and your gender. The word "fooled" comes into play when you see a woman and assume she doesn't have a penis, yet, in this scenario, she actually does. Isn't that reasonable?

I subscribe to the idea that every person has both a sex and a gender; sex being the physical/biological side, gender being the psychological/identity (perhaps also hormonal) side. This has always been the best and easiest way to look at it.

Gender is purely rooted in culture, it has no biological basis (i.e., no hormonal one).

I still think using the term 'fooled' is walking a very thin line, and kind of smacks of some sort of trickery on the part of the transgendered person.

edit: calling people white knights is adding nothing to the discussion, so if that's your entire reason for being here, get the fuck out

 

[hsin]

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn- SANE

 

[SouthernDragon]

I agree with HappyBouviac about the "fooled" bit.

There was a rather stunning lady in the other thread, and she would have completely fooled me. Not that it is her intent to trick, but rather that I cannot tell the difference between her and a non-transgendered woman. Her transformation is that good. Besides, don't they clearly make themselves known to avoid any problems? Hence the special pins they get on that airline in the other thread.

I did not know ladyboy was offensive in the states, either. The more you learn. The "negro" comparison was apt; I use it with certain hispanic friends, but I'd never use it with my American friends.

 

[Gaborn]

I agree with HappyBouviac about the "fooled" bit.

There was a rather stunning lady in the other thread, and she would have completely fooled me. Not that it is her intent to trick, but rather that I cannot tell the difference between her and a non-transgendered woman. Her transformation is that good. Besides, don't they clearly make themselves known to avoid any problems? Hence the special pins they get on that airline in the other thread.

I did not know ladyboy was offensive in the states, either. The more you learn. The "negro" comparison was apt; I use it with certain hispanic friends, but I'd never use it with my American friends.

If you can't tell the difference... what exactly is the problem?

 

[Count Dookkake]

OP is a backpedaling liar. The expression on his face says his position on the matter.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

Look, even if you accept that using the term "lady-boy" is meant inoffensively - you're not being fooled. A transgendered person does not start out as one gender and for them "become" another. They're born mentally and emotionally different than than their birth sex. They don't "become" girls they ARE girls who just happened to be born with a penis. "Fooled" is almost more offensive than "ladyboy" because it suggests there is something wrong with them.

I kind of.... really don't want to be offensive to anyone, rights for all and all that, but I don't know if I'm really on board with your whole 'gender is a social construct' thing.

I actually think i like the thai way of dealing with it better by treating it as a 3rd sex, because one the whole boys and girls pretty much fit the bill for description, unless why have option 3 which is transgender.

 

[Gaborn]

I kind of.... really don't want to be offensive to anyone, rights for all and all that, but I don't know if I'm really on board with your whole 'gender is a social construct' thing.

I actually think i like the thai way of dealing with it better by treating it as a 3rd sex, because one the whole boys and girls pretty much fit the bill for description, unless why have option 3 which is transgender.

There is a TON of variation out there even with regards to sex. For example, some people cannot respond to androgens (that means, essentially, they can be genetically male but develop as mostly or even entirely female physically). Or there are XXY people or genetic mosaics with more than one set of DNA, and sometimes male AND female DNA

 

[Instigator]

And yeah, "white knight" is a shitty concept rooted in the worst kind of group mentality. Can't we just have open discussion with everyone holding up their thoughts at face value?

What about the 'riskychrising' concept?

 

[Gaborn]

What about the 'riskychrising' concept?

What about people getting over their hangups about sexuality and gender issues?

 

[Instigator]

What about people getting over their hangups about sexuality and gender issues?

Maybe when you stop comparing oranges to apples?

If I say humans are a bipedal species, you're likely going to dig up some freak examples of poor babies born with extra pairs of legs as "proof" to the contrary.

 

[HappyBivouac]

What about people getting over their hangups about sexuality and gender issues?

What if I meet a transgendered woman, fall for her instantly, things get as far as the bedroom, and I find she's equipped with man-parts? I'm not really interested in man-parts. If I find that puts a damper on the whole thing, and I'm a bit peeved that this wasn't made clear before we got to this part, is that just because I have some hangups I need to get over?

 

[Gaborn]

Maybe when you stop comparing oranges to apples?

If I say humans are a bipedal species, you're likely going to dig up some freak examples of poor babies born with extra pairs of legs as "proof" to the contrary.

Not at all. The fact that there are outliers does not change the norm - but it also doesn't mean we should treat people that don't fit with society's norm as inferior. The point the OP seems to be missing is that his original thread wasn't about a third sex for the sake of it, or about anything other than "ho ho, look at the freaks gaf!"

Seriously, let's look at his OP from there: thread title: Are these ladies... or men?? (pics)

My comment: Obviously no commentary on a 3rd sex, binary view of sexuality, used for sensationalism and derision.

OP text:
Here are some lady-boy pics that I took in Thailand. These "ladies" were once men...

My comment: the word 'ladies' in quotes denotes distain, the "were once men" comment implies a misunderstanding of transsexuals.

Following were a bunch of pics of apparently TG girls.

This entire second thread was made to back pedal from his completely ignorant thread and it's pretty sad how much denial there is to that fact.

Happy - Not necessarily, a lot would depend on the context of your relationship. I feel comfortable in guessing that a lot of couples take a lot of interim steps before getting to the actual bedroom so it seems somewhat unlikely you would not have seen their genitalia earlier. I also think a transgender person should obviously be honest early in a relationship about their status. But that doesn't mean there isn't a good deal of ignorance around TG issues.