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Red · Feb 17, 2011

Gaborn said:
Indeed (Don't bump this!)

I cringed. Read the headline, got chills.

Doc Holliday said:
God, political correctness has gone haywire. Some of you guys need to grow a pair

As offensive as the term may be, it's pretty accurate on a meat head surface level.

Devolution · Feb 17, 2011

Doc Holliday said:
God, political correctness has gone haywire. Some of you guys need to grow a pair

Or some people just need to be a bit more sensitive? Not that hard.

G-Fex · Feb 17, 2011

guys guys let's try to bring some order in here.

Calm down. OP, be clearer.

Crumpet Trumpet · Feb 17, 2011

Doc Holliday said:
God, political correctness has gone haywire. Some of you guys need to grow a pair

wow have you ever tried stand up

water_wendi · Feb 17, 2011

CaptYamato said:
I remember my psych professor saying over there they do it for the money they make...doing...you know...

There is a huge percentage of transpeople that have extreme difficulty getting employment due to discrimination and are therefore forced into sex work for survival.

umop_3pisdn · Feb 17, 2011

Ninja Scooter said:
If eminem says he was not white, but he was a black man who happen to be born with white skin you wouldn't think he was bring ridiculous?

Male and female are the two main categories of the human species, it's a ubiquitous difference (aside from in the case of the 'third sex') and there are added differences between the two (in brain structure, etc) that reflect that. The human fetus exists in a default 'female' state before androgens masculinize it. Since sex is essentially the two main categories of the human species, it's a spectrum that everyone falls on somewhere by a matter of degree. Race isn't a good analogy.

Buckethead · Feb 17, 2011

Freshmaker said:
Science has demonstrated that are structural differences in TG brains. Science is not on your side.

That's generous.

Monocle · Feb 17, 2011

Seda said:
Unforgivingly-Left-Gaf will do that.

*puts on stupid glasses* *walks to chalkboard* *draws meaningless diagrams*

Red · Feb 17, 2011

Buckethead said:
Hardly.

Fucking magnets, how do they work?

Oh ho, nice edit.

Devolution · Feb 17, 2011

umop_3pisdn said:
Male and female are the two main categories of the human species, it's a ubiquitous difference (aside from in the case of the 'third sex') and there are added differences between the two (in brain structure, etc) that reflect that. The human fetus exists in a default 'female' state before androgens masculinize it. Since sex is essentially the two main categories of the human species, it's a spectrum that everyone falls on somewhere by a matter of degree. Race isn't a good analogy.

There's also a high number of people born with both sex organs and the parents literally choose for them.

Seda · Feb 17, 2011

Monocle said:
*puts on stupid glasses* *walks to chalkboard* *draws meaningless diagrams*

I don't get the connotation of this...

Fusebox · Feb 17, 2011

Freshmaker said:
Science has demonstrated that are structural differences in TG brains. Science is not on your side.

Not all Thai ladyboys are genuine trans-gender trapped in the wrong body, many do it just for the money and because its more socially acceptable over there, that's why they've built an entire industry around it.

geeko · Feb 17, 2011

Ninja Scooter · Feb 17, 2011

Seda said:
I don't get the connotation of this...

Glenn Beck.

umop_3pisdn · Feb 17, 2011

Devolution said:
There's also a high number of people born with both sex organs and the parents literally choose for them.

Yes, absolutely, and that's a horrible thing for those parents to do, I was just taking the overly simplified/extremely un-nuanced view.

Buckethead · Feb 17, 2011

Crunched said:
Oh ho, nice edit.

Same difference. Many of said studies are highly controversial and some with poor reproducibility, etc.

You can say one thing or another but the issue has by no means been resolved where one could make a firm statement saying yea or nay.

TheKaeptain · Feb 17, 2011

Devolution said:
There's also a high number of people born with both sex organs and the parents literally choose for them.

I've heard people say this but I have always heard it is very rare. Of course the people that say it is rare are usually doctors.

ZephyrFate · Feb 17, 2011

Seda said:
I don't get the connotation of this...

when you paint people who are simply trying to get rid of harmful derogatory terms towards transgendered people as "unforgivingly left" you make yourself appear shockingly ignorant and/or stupid

Grimmy · Feb 17, 2011

Fusebox said:
Not all Thai ladyboys are genuine trans-gender trapped in the wrong body, many do it just for the money and because its more socially acceptable over there, that's why they've built an entire industry around it.

Errr... I wouldn't say that. It's just the case that Thailand is much more accepting of transsexuals/transvestite than other societies, so people are more free to become what they feel they are. My cousin is a perfect example.

Red · Feb 17, 2011

Buckethead said:
Same difference. Many of said studies are highly controversial and some with poor reproducibility.

You can say one thing or another but the issue has by no means been resolved where one could make a firm statement saying yea or nay.

If he said "science has proven" instead of "has demonstrated," I might agree with you. I have no doubt there are deep seated biological differences in people with transgender identities, but I realize there isn't really conclusive evidence on the subject as of yet.

Monocle · Feb 17, 2011

Ninja Scooter said:
Glenn Beck.

How'd you guess?

G-Fex · Feb 17, 2011

Two things OP, you were either A. pointing out "ooh look at these! Huh gaf, Huh?" or B. Some sort of appreciation for them.

I'm inclined to believe the first one.

Seda · Feb 17, 2011

Ninja Scooter said:
Glenn Beck.

Oh. I consider myself Republican, but as soon as I say anything people assume I'm an ignorant Fox News hardcore Christian who thinks the earth is only thousands of years old, tea party hate mongerer science and Richard Dawkins is evil etc etc.

I'm none of those things I promise (well Christian with very loose biblical interpretation). I've never watched Glenn Beck.

Monocle · Feb 17, 2011

Seda said:
Oh. I consider myself Republican, but as soon as I say anything people assume I'm an ignorant Fox News hardcore Christian who thinks the earth is only thousands of years old, tea party hate mongerer science and Richard Dawkins is evil etc etc.

I'm none of those things I promise (well Christian with very loose biblical interpretation). I've never watched Glenn Beck.

I was kind of just ribbing you.

Axion22 · Feb 17, 2011

It is also the title of a song by R.O. Manse. See youtube.

Buckethead · Feb 17, 2011

Crunched said:
If he said "science has proven" instead of "has demonstrated," I might agree with you. I have no doubt there are deep seated biological differences in people with transgender identities, but I realize there isn't really conclusive evidence on the subject as of yet.

Regardless seemed to me that he was namedropping "science" for the sake of his petty argument.

If you want to argue semantics he also said "science is not on your side", which: 1 falsely asserted science has a side and 2 implying it was on 'his'.

But this hardly on-topic and will devolve into another argument so I'm out.

Devolution · Feb 17, 2011

CaptYamato said:
I've heard people say this but I have always heard it is very rare. Of course the people that say it is rare are usually doctors.

1/100 babies are born with intersexed conditions, 1/1000 undergoes "corrective" surgery.

Most are given surgery to have the appearance of a vagina since it's easier.

I put corrective in quotes because it's more of a societal stigma really.

ZephyrFate · Feb 17, 2011

well considering science has at least attempted to understand what makes transgender people who they are and not the opposite, i.e., trying to prove that it has no biological basis, science is kind of on the side of showing that there are differences in TG brains

TheKaeptain · Feb 17, 2011

Seda said:
Oh. I consider myself Republican, but as soon as I say anything people assume I'm an ignorant Fox News hardcore Christian who thinks the earth is only thousands of years old, tea party hate mongerer science and Richard Dawkins is evil etc etc.

I'm none of those things I promise (well Christian with very loose biblical interpretation). I've never watched Glenn Beck.

That just makes you a bad republican.

Fusebox · Feb 17, 2011

Grimmy said:
Errr... I wouldn't say that. It's just the case that Thailand is much more accepting of transsexuals/transvestite than other societies, so people are more free to become what they feel they are. My cousin is a perfect example.

Even that still doesn't explain the disproportionately high number of kathoey in Thailand, plenty of other countries are just as sexually tolerant.

However, I think the biggest shock in this thread is a republican not knowing who Glenn Beck is!

Seda · Feb 17, 2011

ZephyrFate said:
when you paint people who are simply trying to get rid of harmful derogatory terms towards transgendered people as "unforgivingly left" you make yourself appear shockingly ignorant and/or stupid

It seemed like people were jumping all over his case and overreacting when he didn't seem to intend to use the word in a derogatory manner.

I remember in a topic where someone accidentaly used

JAP

instead of JPN and a similar thing happened.

Trent Strong · Feb 17, 2011

Gaborn said:
". . They're girls that are correcting a physical problem where their body does not match their reality mentally and emotionally.

Can you prove this using empirical data?

Koodo · Feb 17, 2011

catfish said:
yeah that's the word for them in thailand. It's the '3rd sex' and there was a thread about it the other day. It's how the culture views/treats them.

Yeah, in Thai context.

To illustrate: negro (as a noun, not an adjective) is a completely normal term in Venezuela that refers to black people. Would you go around calling Gaffers negro?

"HOLA MY NEGROES, HOW ARE YOU?"

No, you would not.

The transgendered community here probably would not appreciate "ladyboy," much like black Gaf wouldn't appreciate "negro" or gay gaf wouldn't appreciate "marico."

And in any case, like Gaborn pointed out, the OP pretty much can be summed up as "I don't meant to insult anyone, it's just that I was almost tranny surprised." Offensive, in bad taste, embarrassing, etc etc.

ZephyrFate · Feb 17, 2011

Seda said:
It seemed like people were jumping all over his case and overreacting when he didn't seem to intend to use the word in a derogatory manner.

I remember in a topic where someone accidentaly used

JAP

instead of JPN and a similar thing happened.

well i mean i don't really care a whole lot about the issue but i mean, if you think about it, how is ladyboy NOT a harmful term to use? it's like calling a gay person a fairy or a flamer

TheKaeptain · Feb 17, 2011

Devolution said:
1/100 babies are born with intersexed conditions, 1/1000 undergoes "corrective" surgery.

Most are given surgery to have the appearance of a vagina since it's easier.

I put corrective in quotes because it's more of a societal stigma really.

I'm about to go to bed but have any links to the case studies that support these claims? I find this interesting. Need to read more about it.

Seda · Feb 17, 2011

Koodo said:
Yeah, in Thai context.

To illustrate: negro (as a noun, not an adjective) is a completely normal term in Venezuela that refers to black people. Would you go around calling Gaffers negro?

"HOLA MY NEGROES, HOW ARE YOU?"

No, you would not.

The transgendered community here probably would not appreciate "ladyboy," much like black Gaf wouldn't appreciate "negro" or gay gaf wouldn't appreciate "marico."

And in any case, like Gaborn pointed out, the OP pretty much can be summed up as "I don't meant to insult anyone, it's just that I was almost tranny surprised." Offensive, in bad taste, embarrassing, etc etc.

I guess the determining factor is that he was actually visiting Thailand...that's where the pictures were from iirc

Gaborn · Feb 17, 2011

Trent Strong said:
Can you prove this using empirical data?

I'm not a clinical psychiatrist. I do know that transgendered people are treated for their "condition" in psychiatry by undergoing evaluations for mental fitness to begin transitioning their gender - that is, their "cure" is the transition from one physical gender to the other.

Currently the APA does not recommend trying to force someone to keep their birth gender any more than it recommends reparative therapy for gays.

Devolution · Feb 17, 2011

CaptYamato said:
I'm about to go to bed but have any links to the case studies that support these claims? I find this interesting. Need to read more about it.

I would start with The Intersex Society of North America.

Red · Feb 17, 2011

ZephyrFate said:
well i mean i don't really care a whole lot about the issue but i mean, if you think about it, how is ladyboy NOT a harmful term to use? it's like calling a gay person a fairy or a flamer

I think mostly it seems inoffensive because transgender people are largely an outlier group in society. It's like they don't have a voice, because of that. They are marginalized worldwide.

It's more accurate on a surface level compared to "fairy" or "flamer," since it appears more accurately to describe a physical situation, like "black/white person." But as said above, it marginalizes the group. It doesn't correctly identify them as a third sex, and turns them semantically into freaks (combining two ideas seemingly in opposition with one another).

Seda · Feb 17, 2011

ZephyrFate said:
well i mean i don't really care a whole lot about the issue but i mean, if you think about it, how is ladyboy NOT a harmful term to use? it's like calling a gay person a fairy or a flamer

I think it stemmed from a tendency to want to distinguish them apart i guess

ugh I'm digging a hole here. I feel lonely as a college-age republican and don't do well in crowds :/

please hand me a shovel gaf

ZephyrFate · Feb 17, 2011

Seda said:
I think it stemmed from a tendency to want to distinguish them apart i guess

ugh I'm digging a hole here. I feel lonely as a college-age republican and don't do well in crowds :/

please hand me a shovel gaf

well then if you want to distinguish them, use the term intersex. it's incredibly accurate and describes pretty much all TG cases.

it's pretty easy.

G-Fex · Feb 17, 2011

I find it hard to believe one side of the board can support transgender and the other can make fun and or mock feminine looking men.

Seda · Feb 17, 2011

ZephyrFate said:
well then if you want to distinguish them, use the term intersex. it's incredibly accurate and describes pretty much all TG cases.

it's pretty easy.

Intent>Semantics is all I'm saying, though both can be crucially important.

ZephyrFate · Feb 17, 2011

G-Fex said:
I find it hard to believe one side of the board can support transgender and the other can make fun and or mock feminine looking men.

the only feminine looking man I make fun of is justin bieber if only because he's created a look among all younger men nowadays that I absolutely despise. That hairdo...

TheKaeptain · Feb 17, 2011

Devolution said:
I would start with The Intersex Society of North America.

bookmarking will go over it on my six day weekend.

lightless_shado · Feb 17, 2011

What is ....

Snuggles · Feb 17, 2011

ANSANE in the membrane

ZephyrFate · Feb 17, 2011

Seda said:
Intent>Semantics is all I'm saying, though both can be crucially important.

well yes and I understand and even I as a gay man will use the term faggot every now and then because I find homophobic slurs hilarious and worthy of being made fun of in general so i get your point, but I rarely use it in real life around gay guys I know if only because while I may be transparent when it comes to homophobic slurs they may not be

CygnusXS · Feb 17, 2011

Like I said in the first thread: option C. There is a long and complex historical tradition of third (or more) genders in various cultures from around the globe.

Gaborn · Feb 17, 2011

Seda said:
I think it stemmed from a tendency to want to distinguish them apart i guess

ugh I'm digging a hole here. I feel lonely as a college-age republican and don't do well in crowds :/

please hand me a shovel gaf

Honestly, I think it shows some character that you can admit that (at least I hope that's what you're saying) your thinking was based on a pre-conceived prejudice about people. That is a very important step to over coming that kind of ignorance.

I realize that sounds a little fatuous but, I DO respect it. I've talked to a few TG people and I've found them to be warm, funny, and wonderful people. It's probably a good idea to keep in mind when you think about separating them from others that - they're just like everyone else. But because of a minor difference that isn't going to affect the average person's interactions with them most of the time they get discriminated against and emotionally abused more than most other people.

I wish people would make more of an effort to meet different sorts of people before coming to conclusions about them.

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