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[Astral Dog]

From their initial forecast of 8m it sounds like Nintendo were playing it safe using the cheaper off the shelf X1. Perhaps selling 8m Switchs at the cost of the standard X1 would allow them to hit their profit targets. They are innovators but I wish they took a greater business risk on this one. If they invested twice as much on the chip (R&D, manufacturing etc) and do end up selling double their forecast they would have still hit their profit dollars and we would have had a better chip in the Switch.

They tried to do this with the Wii U. Maybe its best to leave the matter in Nvidia's hands

 

[mavericktopgun]

So how much more powerful is a cpu core from the Switch compared to one cpu core from the Xbox 360?

360:
3 cores with 3.2 ghz

Switch:
4 cores with 1 ghz



Bonus
Xbox One:
8 cores with 1.75 ghz

 

[Alchemy]

As in worked with Nvidia to further improve the X1 making it truly semi custom and enhanced. Something Nvidia kinda eluded they did but now we know didn't lol. I'm not a tech guy but I'm sure the tech gaffers in here can think of how they could improve the chip with twice the budget. I'd say at least improve the memory bandwidth somehow. Perhaps adopt more Pascal architecture into it. Find ways to increase speed by reducing throttle etc...

As much shit as we can give Nintendo for just using an off the shelf part here, its partially a blessing in disguise. Being a stock Tegra X1 makes developing for the system significantly easier, its already a known factor. There should be fewer hang ups asking Nintendo for info and it getting hung up in translation and unanswered like they had with the Wii U.

Really the only thing I would have liked to see is something related to Pascal and power draw, it seems like there is room for improvement there but possibly not in the timeline Nintendo wanted for launch.

 

[Pasedo]

They tried to do this with the Wii U. Maybe its best to leave the matter in Nvidia's hands

Yeh they were scarred too badly from that so they decided the X1 was cheap enough/good enough. Just a shame as I really believe Switch is going to do really well from all accounts, but we might not see all future games ported over as X1 in its standard Saiyan form, just isn't capable enough. If they paid double for a more powerful Super Saiyan custom X1 chip designed by Nvidia, the Switch would have alot more versatility and less barriers to 3P support. If they entered Switch with the same confidence coming out of Wii I'm sure this is exactly what we would have got. Unfortunately this confidence was misplaced in WiiU with a confusing concept, bad marketing and I'd say bad timing.

 

[Fredrik]

Doesn't seem like it's slowing down from 1.5m sold so far and usually the more momentum you build earlier the more hype, word of mouth etc starts to spread, which drives sales even further. I don't think its unachievable.

While that is true I think people need to be able to simply go into a store and buy it or they'll eventually lose the interest, no matter how hyped it is. I haven't seen a single Switch on the shelves at any of the stores in my town after launch day and I believe this is a big problem, selling to core gamers and Nintendo fans who're in queue for it will only take you so far.

 

[pswii60]

So how much more powerful is a cpu core from the Switch compared to one cpu core from the Xbox 360?

360:
3 cores with 3.2 ghz

Switch:
4 cores with 1 ghz



Bonus
Xbox One:
8 cores with 1.75 ghz

It's complicated as there are such architectural differences and also hardware acceleration of tasks in the Switch and Jaguar CPUs which weren't available in the 360 CPU. 360's CPU has only in-order execution too.

 

[Hermii]

It could have been 900p but if it is then it's an extremely jaggy 900p. It definitely looked like an upscaled image to me, could have even been a dynamic resolution to hold 60fps like Fast Racing Remix.

I don't see why the test should be running at a lower resolution than the final game at this stage of development. The game is due out in the next three months not a year.

I don't understand why resolution is an issue for Splatoon 2 tbh, it really does look very similar to the previous Wii U Splatoon so it should be hitting native 1080p when docked like MK8 is although at this stage it really wouldn't surprise me to find out MK8 is native 900p with the PR saying it's 1080p.

Like I said before if developers are going after games that look a lot better than Wii U games then I wouldn't expect anymore than 900p (maybe even 720p). 1080p for ports of Wii U games.

A lot of optimisation could happen in the last few months. My guess is still that it drops frames in whatever res they are targeting for docked so they just ran mobile mode all the time for the testfire.

Edit: if there were any changes at all between docked and mobile I would agree, but it seems really implausible they will do absolutely nothing with that extra power.

 

[PdotMichael]

I don't even know if Nvidia would even do a lot of custom work in the first place. They aren't AMD in that regard.

 

[Donnie]

I don't even know if Nvidia would even do a lot of custom work in the first place. They aren't AMD in that regard.

They would do whatever they were asked/paid to do. If Nintendo wanted a certain custom chip and Nvidia wouldn't provide it, they simply wouldn't get the contract for Switch, they're in this for the business after all and if paid enough for the chip they'll make whatever chip is required.

 

[Zedark]

In January after pre-orders

Do we know if the article said anything about the timing of the ramping up? Since many (including me) don't have access to the full article and can only read the first few lines, it isn't clear to me if there is any news about when exactly they upped the production.

 

[PdotMichael]

They would do whatever they were asked/paid to do. If Nintendo wanted a certain custom chip and Nvidia wouldn't provide it, they simply wouldn't get the contract for Switch, they're in this for the business after all and if paid enough for the chip they'll make whatever chip is required.

So this is a no.

 

[Donnie]

So this is a no.

A no to what? You think Nvidia don't have the ability to modify a chip? I shouldn't need to give examples since its just common sense. But Nvidia produced a custom chip for XBox, so obviously they can do it (again its common sense, they're a GPU maker for god sake, a custom GPU is every new GPU they make..).

Or you think Nvidia just turn up and dictate to customers what they're getting and customers just accept it? Again shouldn't need to give an example of something that should just be common sense. But Nvidia tried for the 3DS contract, didn't offer what Nintendo wanted and got dropped, so no they don't just turn up and dictate to customers.

 

[Bluth54]

They would do whatever they were asked/paid to do. If Nintendo wanted a certain custom chip and Nvidia wouldn't provide it, they simply wouldn't get the contract for Switch, they're in this for the business after all and if paid enough for the chip they'll make whatever chip is required.

I don't think Nintendo really had any option other than Nvidia a system like the Switch, I don't know of any other company that provides powerful but low power SOCs like this.AMD does SOCs as well but I do they make anything that's low powered enough for a system like the Switch?

That being said I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo could of gotten a custom chip from Nvidia but a stock Tegra X1 was cheaper than getting a custom made chip.

 

[PdotMichael]

A no to what? You think Nvidia don't have the ability to modify a chip? Or you think Nvidia just turn up and dictate to customers what they're getting and customers just accept it? Honestly you say the oddest things sometimes.

I shouldn't need to give examples since its just common sense. But Nvidia produced a custom chip for XBox, so obviously they can do it (again its common sense, they're a GPU maker for god sake, a custom GPU is every new GPU they make..). Also they went for the 3DS contract, didn't offer what Nintendo wanted and got dropped, so no they don't just turn up and dictate to customers (again as if I should actually need to give an example of something that's just common sense).

It's not about lacking the expertise but about Nvida's business model - or more like how AMD operates. You say a lot of nothing for some reasn.

 

[Donnie]

I don't think Nintendo really had any option other than Nvidia a system like the Switch, I don't know of any other company that provides powerful but low power SOCs like this.AMD does SOCs as well but I do they make anything that's low powered enough for a system like the Switch?

That being said I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo could of gotten a custom chip from Nvidia but a stock Tegra X1 was cheaper than getting a custom made chip.

There are plenty of GPU makers and GPU IP companies around if a custom device was wanted (IMGTEC is a obvious choice their). But Nvidia were the obvious choice for a already design chip, they already had something that fitted what Nintendo wanted which is why they got the contract.

 

[Hermii]

I don't even know if Nvidia would even do a lot of custom work in the first place. They aren't AMD in that regard.

Isn't the surface pro gpu a semicustom Nvidia chip?

Edit: surface book. And it is.
http://www.notebookcheck.net/NVIDIA-Maxwell-GPU-940M-GDDR5.153640.0.html

 

[Donnie]

It's not about lacking the expertise but about Nvida's business model - or more like how AMD operates. You say a lot of nothing for some reasn.

You say absolutely nothing at all, and pass it off as a meaningful post.

 

[PdotMichael]

You say absolutely nothing at all, and pass it off as a meaningful post.

I asked a question and you replied basically with yes, but no...

There are reasons why customizations in a significant way aren't that common.

 

[Backfoggen]

A lot of optimisation could happen in the last few months. My guess is still that it drops frames in whatever res they are targeting for docked so they just ran mobile mode all the time for the testfire.

Edit: if there were any changes at all between docked and mobile I would agree, but it seems really implausible they will do absolutely nothing with that extra power.

There are changes, undocked runs at a resolution lower than 720p with dynamic scaling from what I could see.

Here are some comparison images I took.

Undocked

Docked

Horrible twitter compression, sure, but you can see the difference in clarity.
I'd like them to at least add some post process AA to the docked mode.

 

[LeleSocho]

I don't even know if Nvidia would even do a lot of custom work in the first place. They aren't AMD in that regard.

So this is a no.

It's not about lacking the expertise but about Nvida's business model - or more like how AMD operates. You say a lot of nothing for some reasn.

I asked a question and you replied basically with yes, but no...

There are reasons why customizations in a significant way aren't that common.

???
The heck are you smoking? Do you really think if requested Nvidia wouldn't do a custom chip because of your warped idea of a business model?

 

[orioto]

There are changes, undocked runs at a resolution lower than 720p with dynamic scaling from what I could see.

Here are some comparison images I took.

Undocked

Docked

Horrible twitter compression, sure, but you can see the difference in clarity.
I'd like them to at least add some post process AA to the docked mode.

That is really more worrying that people would thought honestly.
You can bet, if they do that now, Switch will have a looot of games with crappy iq undocked, which makes it vita all over again, and the sharp screen absolutely useless. I remember we had debate with vita about that but a portable should never have sub native games, cause its screen is part of its identity, unlike a tv for a home console.

I'm honestly really disappointed. Future may be a blurry nightmare for the Switch now..

 

[PdotMichael]

???
The heck are you smoking? Do you really think if requested Nvidia wouldn't do a custom chip because of your warped idea of a business model?

It doesn't matter what I'm thinking.

The idea there is a realistic scenario where nVidia would fulfil all the dreams of some people here in a customized version is, well, not realistic.

 

[Hermii]

It doesn't matter what I'm thinking.

The idea there is a realistic scenario where nVidia would fulfil all the dreams of some people here in a customized version is, well, not realistic.

It obviously didn't happen, but the idea of a semicustom soc in a game console isn't terribly far fetched.

 

[Hoo-doo]

There are changes, undocked runs at a resolution lower than 720p with dynamic scaling from what I could see.

Here are some comparison images I took.

Undocked

Docked

Horrible twitter compression, sure, but you can see the difference in clarity.
I'd like them to at least add some post process AA to the docked mode.

Did DF get their hands on the testfire for an analysis? This looks, well, rough.

 

[Hermii]

That is really more worrying that people would thought honestly.
You can bet, if they do that now, Switch will have a looot of games with crappy iq undocked, which makes it vita all over again, and the sharp screen absolutely useless. I remember we had debate with vita about that but a portable should never have sub native games, cause its screen is part of its identity, unlike a tv for a home console.

I'm honestly really disappointed. Future may be a blurry nightmare for the Switch now..

That's a bit worrying.

 

[KAL2006]

It's obvious Switch isn't as powerful. However I'm still satisfied what it can do as a handheld though I'm not happy about the price here in the UK. I think it's £50 more than it should be for me. However i really expect Nintendo to make a Switch 2 in 5 years time. I reckon Nintendo will continue selling Switch 1 while Switch 2 is released and all Switch 1 games will work better on Switch 2 just like PS4 Pro, except Switch 2 will have some exclusive games here and there but not as many as a brand new generation.

 

[Pasedo]

So I still think standard X1 was used not because Nvidia wouldn't be up for customisation if the client was willing to pay for it but rather that they identified it as a reasonable chip in it's standard form and didn't want to inflate the cost because of a sales forecast that needed to see a good return for shareholders. In business the numbers they call must be achievable and must hit a target profit. Everything is calculated and it seemed 8m was what they needed to hit factoring in the cost of a standard X1 plus the other costs to hit their profit targets. Now that they're forecasted to make more money in the next 12 months I hope this will go into investing in Nvidia to make some sort of SLI configuration with another X1 implemented into the Dock for additional dock performance. Okay I know this is unlikely - Nintendo would rather bank their good fortunes lol.

 

[Durante]

I don't even know if Nvidia would even do a lot of custom work in the first place. They aren't AMD in that regard.

Of course they would, if you pay them enough to offset their opportunity cost.

It's just that this is likely very expensive, since NV engineers are making the company a whole lot of money doing what they are already doing. (Unlike, say, AMD 3 years ago)

 

[Pasedo]

Come to think of it. I would not be at all suprised that during their 2-3 year road map after they had launched the WiiU that they were planning on a custom X1. However due to the poor sales of WiiU and high R&D costs with their Joycons, they probably had to revert to using standard X1 because they did not have the cash from WiiU sales to support the investment. This could even be why Nvidia has been calling it custom - because at one point it was on the plans. Hmmm??

 

[sugarhigh4242]

Can any hardware wizards weigh in on my idea to rip the Switch firmware and install it on an X1 dev board? Can we get Zelda running without framedrops that way?

 

[ArtHands]

Seems like people don't care if it's an X1 or X2. They just want to play Zelda, even if it's on last gen tech:

https://gamerant.com/zelda-breath-wild-wii-u-sales-increase-gamestop/

3DS, Wii and DS didnt win because of tech. Its because of games

 

[Dark-Cloudz]

That is really more worrying that people would thought honestly.
You can bet, if they do that now, Switch will have a looot of games with crappy iq undocked, which makes it vita all over again, and the sharp screen absolutely useless. I remember we had debate with vita about that but a portable should never have sub native games, cause its screen is part of its identity, unlike a tv for a home console.

I'm honestly really disappointed. Future may be a blurry nightmare for the Switch now..

Zelda was a locked 720p30FPS undocked and Spla2oon is in beta.

My only concern would be if 720p60FPS is too much on release.

 

[KAL2006]

People need to realise Nintendo don't give 2 shits about hardware

Their best selling systems were things like GameBoy, DS and Wii.

Nintendo's core audience are kids who play Pokémon and Mario. Obviously you have the Nintendo userbase who are adults but Nintendo has been thriving from the kid audience for a long time now.

I understand the Switch is expensive now and also marketed at young adults. But it's obvious Nintendo are going to branch out to the kid audience and have cheaper price points and more color JoyCons down the line and software such as Pokémon.

If they went with a custom X2 chip they would have had to delay Switch, as well as charge a bit more as well as future price drops to get the Switch to the $200 price point would take longer.

I expect by fall 2018 you would be able to get Switch for $200 with a game preinstalled. Year 1 is for the early adopters and young adult and tech enthusiasts market.

 

[StoppedInTracks]

There are changes, undocked runs at a resolution lower than 720p with dynamic scaling from what I could see.

Here are some comparison images I took.

Undocked

Docked

Horrible twitter compression, sure, but you can see the difference in clarity.
I'd like them to at least add some post process AA to the docked mode.

This looks like hot garbage :/

 

[Dark-Cloudz]

This looks like hot garbage :/

Nintendo Compression screens are just the worst.

It looks better than that.

 

[lwilliams3]

Can any hardware wizards weigh in on my idea to rip the Switch firmware and install it on an X1 dev board? Can we get Zelda running without framedrops that way?

Nintendo has implied that they did not do any optimizations to Zelda for the Switch, so it is very unlikely that the game is close to running the game as well as it can on the system. The X1 dev board has the same bandwidth as the Switch, for example, so it will likely have the same issue as the Switch version.

Come to think of it. I would not be at all suprised that during their 2-3 year road map after they had launched the WiiU that they were planning on a custom X1. However due to the poor sales of WiiU and high R&D costs with their Joycons, they probably had to revert to using standard X1 because they did not have the cash from WiiU sales to support the investment. This could even be why Nvidia has been calling it custom - because at one point it was on the plans. Hmmm??

I believe Nintendo's talks with NVidia started two years ago, so they already took their big losses with the Wii U by that time.

I suspected that Tegra's development line was getting threatened due to the lack of wins and success outside of car companies, so they were heading towards massive cutbacks. At that state, it would have probably been unreasonably expensive for NVidia to consider customizing the chipset, and the results would not have been that much of a gamechanger anyway. There was probably also issues with the timeline since Nintendo really needed the system to be ready during this fiscal year.

Either way, I suspect that Tegra developers are very happy right now.

 

[DongBeetle]

I would bet good money that Splatoon 2 runs at 1080p final release.

 

[orioto]

Nintendo Compression screens are just the worst.

It looks better than that.

That argument is really bad, unless the compression is not the same docked and undocked ?

The docked screen is crystal clean here, native sharp 720p as it SHOULD be undocked, while the undocked is an upscaled sub native nightmare. No compression problem here.

Zelda was a locked 720p30FPS undocked and Spla2oon is in beta.

My only concern would be if 720p60FPS is too much on release.

I don't get that kind of comment i'm sorry.
They dev a game for a platform, that's their job to aim at something that can run on it. That's as simple as that. It's for one only platform, unless it was started on WiiU.

The problem is not that the game can run or not as it's intended. The problem is the dev can decide it'll run at a lower resolution cause why not. If they have to reach a certain resolution at a certain frame rate they scale the game for this and that's it. But you can bet if this is acceptable, they'll just use a lower resolution, for sure. Bye bye iq on switch

 

[sugarhigh4242]

Nintendo has implied that they did not do any optimizations to Zelda for the Switch, so it is very unlikely that the game is close to running the game as well as it can on the system. The X1 dev board has the same bandwidth as the Switch, for example, so it will likely have the same issue as the Switch version.

I was more talking about the feasibility of making a console-only, super charged switch.

But I don't think you're reasoning is correct regarding Zelda. Unless the game is coded in a specific way to cap performance, running the same binary on the same hardware with double the clockrate is going to improve performance.

 

[Hermii]

The shield tv would be awesome if hackers manage to turn it into a more powerful Switch.

 

[PSGames]

It's a travesty that a game as simple graphically as Splatoon 2 can't hit 1080p native docked.

The excuse for Zelda was that it was rushed and a little more time it would have for sure been 1080p. What's Splatoon's excuse?

 

[Skittzo0413]

The shield tv would be awesome if hackers manage to turn it into a more powerful Switch.

Doesn't MDave's test show that a Shield TV running Zelda would clock down to essentially the same rates as the Switch playing Zelda? Only with less RAM?

 

[Hermii]

It's a travesty that a game as simple graphically as Splatoon 2 can't hit 1080p native docked.

The excuse for Zelda was that it was rushed and a little more time it would have for sure been 1080p. What's Splatoon's excuse?

That it's not finished. 720p native mobile and either 1080p or 900p docked is my prediction.

Doesn't MDave's test show that a Shield TV running Zelda would clock down to essentially the same rates as the Switch playing Zelda? Only with less RAM?

Double CPU clock though.

 

[daakusedo]

I'm on the mindset that they wouln't do all the lighting and textures upgrade if they were not
planning on having better image quality, cause the aliasing is wild in there, to the point that it kinda makes those upgrades moot, even on switch screen it's still pretty apparent.

 

[Pasedo]

I believe Nintendo's talks with NVidia started two years ago, so they already took their big losses with the Wii U by that time.

I suspected that Tegra's development line was getting threatened due to the lack of wins and success outside of car companies, so they were heading towards massive cutbacks. At that state, it would have probably been unreasonably expensive for NVidia to consider customizing the chipset, and the results would not have been that much of a gamechanger anyway. There was probably also issues with the timeline since Nintendo really needed the system to be ready during this fiscal year.

Either way, I suspect that Tegra developers are very happy right now.

Yep. In a true partnership risk is usually taken from both sides and it didn't make sense for either of them. If WiiU ended up being more of a success I still reckon things would have been different. For starters they wouldn't have had to rush things with Switch. Not completely sure but is this the first chip they've used that was off the shelf? I thought every other chip in their consoles was older tech with some level of enhancement. I reckon they would have milked WiiU for longer and gave it time to create a Tegra chip on Pascal tech.

 

[orioto]

That it's not finished. 720p native mobile and either 1080p or 900p docked is my prediction.

I hope but i don't know.. The game is finished enough for a beta testing online, and is released .. when, in 3 month ? And they will optimize it so well that they will make the resolution 50% bigger ?

 

[Rodin]

I tried splatoon undocked this morning, had problems with the gyroscopes not resetting position with Y (didn't happen with the pro controller) but i don't get where this "sub hd" crap is coming from. Game looks crisp as fuck on the screen. The first game was also 720p on Wii U and Switch undocked is more powerful.

If they had to use dynamic scaling resolution because of the OS bug it's a different story and maybe it just didn't happen to me in my 3 minutes session before going back to docked mode, but holy fuck people stop blowing EVERYTHING out of proportion based on fucking launch games and beta software. It's unsufferable.

 

[Lexxism]

I tried splatoon undocked this morning, I don't get where this "sub hd" crap is coming from. Game looks crisp as fuck on the screen.

They based it on the screenshot. Nintendo is pretty bad with it when it comes to that

 

[Lonely1]

The shield tv would be awesome if hackers manage to turn it into a more powerful Switch.

Its missing 1GB of RAM.

 

[Hermii]

I hope but i don't know.. The game is finished enough for a beta testing online, and is released .. when, in 3 month ? And they will optimize it so well that they will make the resolution 50% bigger ?

Lets say the docked build runs between 45 and 60 fps now. Not good enough for use in the test fire but good enough that it will run locked 60 in a few months.