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[Foxy Fox 39]

so to be clear, you were saying that a normal person thinking about having sex with children, would go to masturbating while thinking about it, would go to watching child porn, would go to an actual pedophile?

i'm just trying to understand what you laid out. i don't agree with that either, but i'm not sure that's what you were getting at either.

i don't think this escalation thing is universal. pictures of attractive people in swimwear don't stop arousing most people once they start looking at other things. if someone needs to continually escalate, they probably have a problem.

First off I wouldn't qualify that as a normal person.

But read what the other guy said and then read my response. TO be clearer, I'm saying that (most likely) all pedophiles start like that. Not necessarily all people who fantasize. I wouldn't advise playing with fire though.

 

[devenger]

Well, I´m a fucked up person

Can I ask what exactly you're avatar is?

 

[Otrebor Nightmarecoat]

Hot Lunch.

 

[bengraven]

And I don´t think so. But that is because I believe that sex isn´t some mythical power that blinds you from reality and takes away control over yourself.

So you're saying we should release our social morals when it comes to sex with children? Why would we do something that would only benefit one person? And one usually pathetic person at that? I should be more accepting if someone wants to fondle my three year old's penis? Am I an unevolved creature or something?

Well, I´m a fucked up person, but I´d say that my lack of sex definitely isn´t at fault for that. And I really don´t like the continued "if you don´t have sex, you *will* become a rapist some day". Isn´t necessary, is it.

This doesn't have anything to do with rape and sex. It has to do with supressing something you feel horrible about. It's similar to the Tell Tale Heart scenario where you can't help but scream your crimes out, if only inside your own head. That is harmful to yourself.

I honestly believe if you were to go to therapy you would find some comfort at least. Some people believe they are above therapy, that there is no therapist compassionate or intelligent enough to know what's in THEIR head. That THEIR perfect therapist is themselves. No sitting on a tree stump staring at a lake while in silent meditation is going to fix the issue of primal urges. We are human beings driven by sex and sex is enough to drive some people mad.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

I think it's impossible to elucidate when we seem to be working off of different definition of the word rape fantasy. If you maintain that my view of the word is incorrect it'd be a great help if you would explain why. I looked it up in case I really was wrong, but from a cursory search much of the results seem to be using it in the same capacity as I have, using it to refer to the fantasies themselves, and not just the act of sexual roleplay. If I'm misunderstanding something here then by all means let me know.

My understanding -- and I could be wrong as I readily admit that I'm not a sexual fetish expert -- is that when seemingly normal people discuss rape fantasy and being drawn to the idea, they're not talking about the violent crime aspect of it. For guys, it's my understanding that it's mainly about being a strong, take-charge individual where, though it may not be consensual from the start, the power and passion will take over and by the end she will embrace your alpha maleness. For women, it's about being ravished by a powerful male. When discussing the latter (women), it's important to note that unless we are talking about an abuse victim whose worldview has been shattered, we are obviously talking about a scenario that is not really rape. By definition, you can't want to be raped.

Now, again, this is the presumption I'm working off of when we are discussing presumably healthy adults. If we're talking about an actual fantasy about raping an individual (imagined or someone they know in real-life), I would be concerned, as I don't think that's healthy. And by that, I'm talking about the fantasy applying exclusively to rape (i.e. the same fantasized victim complying with his advances ruins the fantasy). I find that disturbing.

 

[okdakor]

Well, I´m a fucked up person

Let's merge 2 examples given in this thread.
Let's say you have a kid, 8 year old.
You're chatting with one of your neighbor who says to you : "your kid is cute... I mean really cute. You know that I often think about him ? But everything is ok, I just masturbate to pictures I took of him... Yep, I'm a pedo, I hope you'll understand."

What is your answer ?

 

[Sennorin]

So you're saying we should release our social morals when it comes to sex with children? Why would we do something that would only benefit one person? And one usually pathetic person at that? I should be more accepting if someone wants to fondle my three year old's penis? Am I an unevolved creature or something?

I´m not quite following here. Nowhere am I saying that sex with children should be accepted. It shouldn´t. But we also shouldn´t curse people for just their fantasies. Additionally, we shouldn´t damn those people that have this attraction, if they have themselves under perfect control.

I honestly believe if you were to go to therapy you would find some comfort at least. Some people believe they are above therapy, that there is no therapist compassionate or intelligent enough to know what's in THEIR head. That THEIR perfect therapist is themselves. No sitting on a tree stump staring at a lake while in silent meditation is going to fix the issue of primal urges. We are human beings driven by sex and sex is enough to drive some people mad.

Wait, you´re talking about me now? I can honestly tell you that my lack of sex never made me feel miserable. If anything, the lack of a relationship is hurtful, but I don´t see how I´d ever compensate that through rape. Would only benefit me if I was lusting after sex, wouldn´t it.

Can I ask what exactly you're avatar is?

Lol, I have no idea where this will go, but anyway: It´s a character I drew for a story I wrote/am still writing.

Let's merge 2 examples given in this thread.
Let's say you have a kid, 8 year old.
You're chatting with one of your neighbor who says to you : "your kid is cute... I mean really cute. You know that I often think about him ? But everything is ok, I just masturbate to pictures I took of him... Yep, I'm a pedo, I hope you'll understand."

What is your answer ?

That´s a repeat-question we already covered in a previous thread. The answer is that there is no choice but do something about it, not because I might personally feel any danger from that guy, but because society wouldn´t leave me a choice. Like, none at all. At best, people would call me a bad dad, at worst, someone would call some institution to take my child away from me.
Also, if someone told me "I masturbate to your son", I´d react that same way I would if someone told me that about my girlfriend. I´d punch him, because it´s simply vulgar to tell someone that.

 

[Doctor West]

I´m not quite following here. Nowhere am I saying that sex with children should be accepted. It shouldn´t. But we also shouldn´t curse people for just their fantasies. Additionally, we shouldn´t damn those people that have this attraction, if they have themselves under perfect control.

Uh....having fantasies about sex with children is incredibly fucked up. And who knows how long that "control" will last. I would be just as worried about somebody with constant murder fantasies.

 

[Seraphinianus]

our ability to think about this outpaces society's ability to change attitudes quickly.

it's probably a matter of time before pedophilia isn't accepted (it never will be), but treated as something like heroin addiction (methadone = CG, cruelty free kiddy porn for pedos? The stats on porn don't support a finding that porn makes people want to act out fantasies...)

But it's probably a matter of a lot of time, like tons and tons and maybe not in this lifetime. The "pedo problem" is pretty low on the list of issues that needs to be tackled by humanity...we're not even done with accepting gay people into society with equal rights. even racism is still prevalent. If you talked to the average person about finding a solution that deals with pedos but isn't as harsh as the current laws, you'd probably be accused of diddling kiddies, too.

Personally, I'd rather see legislation that differentiates sex between an 18 and 17 year old (where 17 is illegal) from sex between a 50 year old and a 12 year old. The 18 year old should not have to register as a sex offender, go door to door, report the felony to employers, have his life ruined, etc. etc. where the 50 year old definitely should.

but seriously, the rest of society's problems will be solved, yet still, nobody will want to discuss pedophilia because it's that repulsive and wrong.

 

[okdakor]

The answer is that there is no choice but do something about it [...] because society wouldn´t leave me a choice.

At best, people would call me a bad dad, at worst, someone would call some institution to take my child away from me.

You wouldn't act just because it's simply wrong.
You would act to not be called a bad dad or having your kid taken from you.
Maybe you should seek help.

 

[akira28]

And I don´t think so. But that is because I believe that sex isn´t some mythical power that blinds you from reality and takes away control over yourself.



Well, I´m a fucked up person, but I´d say that my lack of sex definitely isn´t at fault for that. And I really don´t like the continued "if you don´t have sex, you *will* become a rapist some day". Isn´t necessary, is it.

They have done research to find that many pedophiles were shocked or had some other form of extreme stimuli during a developmental phase that altered their later sexual/mental patters. Child sexual abuse by an adult or premature sexual exposure by an older child peer is the sort of thing I'm referring to. It doesn't occur in every case, but they have done studies to find correlations, just like there is a cycle of violence there seems to be a cycle of sexual deviation when children, both male and female are shocked out of the normal track. Doesn't apply to every case, and most abuse incidents are unreported anyway, so I'd say the numbers are lower than they should be. But what needs to happen is open discussion of this medical and mental issue, it's a sexual development issue and instead of people hiding in the shadows and practicing varying levels of unhealthy behavior, (and yes, thoughts about sex with children is unhealthy behavior), they could possibly find wellness and some way to deal, and society could find some way to deal with the issue as well instead of going "Kill Frankenstein". But this requires a serious admission on both sides. One side has to admit responsibility and the other side has to admit that person's humanity.

 

[devenger]

Lol, I have no idea where this will go, but anyway: It´s a character I drew for a story I wrote/am still writing.

Who's the avatar? What's it about? Did you draw the pic? Is it a man or a woman?

I ask because I'm wondering what it has to do with your central interest, and what that interest is.

Some people have comic book characters, video game mascots, anime drawings, and you have ... this. Just wondering what the significance is.

Where is it going? I'm curious to see if it's related to some of your more bizarre opinions.

 

[bengraven]

I´m not quite following here. Nowhere am I saying that sex with children should be accepted. It shouldn´t. But we also shouldn´t curse people for just their fantasies. Additionally, we shouldn´t damn those people that have this attraction, if they have themselves under perfect control.



Wait, you´re talking about me now? I can honestly tell you that my lack of sex never made me feel miserable. If anything, the lack of a relationship is hurtful, but I don´t see how I´d ever compensate that through rape. Would only benefit me if I was lusting after sex, wouldn´t it.

Two things.

1) again, I never said that a person was going to rape someone, I said they could hurt themselves. Just because you're holding it in doesn't mean you're going to rape someone and I never said anything about rape except that I wouldn't want my child around someone who was feeling those emotions.

Story: A friend of mine (let's call him Bob) helped run a midwest convention about 7 or 8 years ago. He had several friends that were huge anime people, but I never really bonded with them because I didn't watch anime unless I was with Bob. I occasionally was put into situations where I had to hang with Bob's friends and there was one that was kind of weird, as if he put up a wall against letting anyone in...it was like "i'm here to watch anime and not make friends".

I found out a few years ago that this guy tried to take his own life. Apparently it was revealed that he had been harboring an obsessive love for his 14-15 year old cousin. He kept it in, but finally said something hinting at it to her, which made her horribly embarassed and shattered him. He was living with his grandmother at the time and tried to take her bottle of sleeping pills.

I also know an extended family member, an uncle of someone close to me, who was basically shunned by his family because while he never acted on his lust over younger family members (his own 16 year old and 13 year old nieces (at the time) in this case), he would still touch them lingeringly and say things like "are you shaving yet? no, not your legs, I mean down there". He now lives 500 miles away in seclusion and calls the former 16 year old, now 25 years old and talks about how they pushed him away.

2) I'm not talking about you, I was talking about people in general. That said, I couldn't help but notice a common subtle theme in your posts, which we've talked about in PM before and I'm convinced you're either crying for help (because of how blatantly against the norm you act in regards to this topic) or a joke account.

 

[plagiarize]

I think chemical casteration emits some steam.

Seriously, if these poeple are sick, remove the desire.

edit:

let people volunteer for it. make the treatment as desirable as possible. don't force it on people that haven't broken the law. again, we don't want to treat the people that have desires and resist them as criminals, imho. most people can control their desires, and i don't think there is evidence to the contrary.

Continually escalate, without release. Virgins may eventually have consensual sex, these people never will.

you're missing my central point. if you need to escalate at all, you probably have a problem. whatever you find attractive originally.

just as some people with healthy sexual desires get on fine without porn, or with soft core porn, i'm sure some pedophiles get on fine watching the Disney channel, or what have you.

like pedophilia, i don't think the need to escalate is A: normal or B: healthy.

 

[weekend_warrior]

When I play GTA I like to kill people, does that make me a danger to society? Is that clear proof that I have the deep seeded desire to kill people? Or is it just me putting myself in a fantasy world, completely separate from my perception of the real world, where I would do things that I would NEVER do or have ANY desire to do in real life?

 

[devenger]

let people volunteer for it.

If it's a sickness that most of them are fighting against, why wouldn't they volunteer for it?

you're missing my central point. if you need to escalate at all, you probably have a problem. whatever you find attractive originally.

Not if you can achieve your desire. I have no problem, I can achieve my particular desire when I get home tonight without breaking the law (i'm married, so I won't, but for the example).

If you can NEVER achieve it without severe punishment, you're never going to be healthy or happy.

i'm sure some pedophiles get on fine watching the Disney channel, or what have you.

Right, that worked for me. A few episodes of I Dream of Jeannie when I was a kid and I never wanted a human woman again.

 

[plagiarize]

When I play GTA I like to kill people, does that make me a danger to society? Is that clear proof that I have the deep seeded desire to kill people? Or is it just me putting myself in a fantasy world, completely separate from my perception of the real world, where I would do things that I would NEVER do or have ANY desire to do in real life?

surely you no longer draw pleasure from just killing virtual people and have had to escalate to torturing virtual people or some such thing?

honestly though, if you were in that position, then i'd consider it an early warning sign.

 

[akira28]

Sennorrin: No clinician or psychologist will simply tell you that 'fantasies are A-ok'. It always depends on the content of those fantasies. If they contain harmful thoughts or something that is particularly exploitative or out of the norm, they will definitely tell you those fantasies are counter productive at best and triggering at worst. The thoughts are a steam valve, that's it. Some people maintain control for a long time, but all it takes is loss of control one time and it's basically murder. Why suffer that possibility to exist?

Thoughts are private, but the effects they have on your mind are real and can affect you in ways you're not even aware of. That's how these people find themselves in situations where they're surrounded by children and they never intended to act on their secret, but suddenly it happens.

If you were defending fantasies, even really kinky ones about behavior between two consenting adults, there would be no problem. But it's like the person who fantasizes about killing his wife. That's neither healthy or good, it's a sign that something needs to be worked out. The adult-child fantasy is almost always about the imbalance power and loss of innocence, some forced metamorphosis and the total control of a situation by an adult who may even be reliving their own trauma through their actions. Basically using the child as an object of paraphilia. No part of that is right or defensible, but a lot of it is concealable, through our shared social delusion. They're just books. It's just pictures. We don't know what he's doing in that locked room of his. But if we were all honest with ourselves, this wouldn't even be an issue anymore.

 

[Count Dookkake]

Once you get over the initial shock, enacting rape fantasies at the request of a partner can be a lot of fun. It's really not all that different than role-playing any other scenario: teacher/student, cop/suspect, master/servant, etc. I don't know that we can make any generalizations about those who engage in such consensual behavior, other than that they are getting laid.

 

[plagiarize]

If it's a sickness that most of them are fighting against, why wouldn't they volunteer for it?

so we agree that it should be a volunteer thing. so no calls to chemically castrate them all.

Not if you can achieve your desire. I have no problem, I can achieve my particular desire when I get home tonight without breaking the law (i'm married, so I won't, but for the example).

If you can NEVER achieve it without severe punishment, you're never going to be healthy or happy.

that's entirely a matter of perspective. you'll never achieve many of your dreams either. the slim chance of them coming true may make it possible for you to deal with that reality, but different people can deal differently.

these people who fantasize about raping children but don't, are not hypothetical. they exist. unless you can prove that everyone that fantasizes about rape or having sex with a child eventually will, you shouldn't keep acting as if that's the case.

Right, that worked for me. A few episodes of I Dream of Jeannie when I was a kid and I never wanted a human woman again.

i'm not sure what you mean by this.

the notion of escalation is that thing X stops working, so you have to escalate. the argument is that hentai esque material will stop being 'enough' for them, and so they will be forced to move on to real child porn, and/or to rape. this isn't a universal thing at all.

it's as silly as making out that all gay people are pedophiles (like they used to do back in the fifties). not all pedophiles are rapists. not all pedophiles will become rapists.

 

[Uchip]

shes like a creepy little doll

 

[akira28]

Anyway, defending pedophilia = wrong.

Defending people who are victimized by confusing and aberrant thoughts = ok I guess. But what's going on in this thread exactly??

Officially derailed?

 

[plagiarize]

Sennorrin: No clinician or psychologist will simply tell you that 'fantasies are A-ok'. It always depends on the content of those fantasies. If they contain harmful thoughts or something that is particularly exploitative or out of the norm, they will definitely tell you those fantasies are counter productive at best and triggering at worst. The thoughts are a steam valve, that's it. Some people maintain control for a long time, but all it takes is loss of control one time and it's basically murder. Why suffer that possibility to exist?

Thoughts are private, but the effects they have on your mind are real and can affect you in ways you're not even aware of. That's how these people find themselves in situations where they're surrounded by children and they never intended to act on their secret, but suddenly it happens.

If you were defending fantasies, even really kinky ones about behavior between two consenting adults, there would be no problem. But it's like the person who fantasizes about killing his wife. That's neither healthy or good, it's a sign that something needs to be worked out. The adult-child fantasy is almost always about the imbalance power and loss of innocence, some forced metamorphosis and the total control of a situation by an adult who may even be reliving their own trauma through their actions. Basically using the child as an object of paraphilia. No part of that is right or defensible, but a lot of it is concealable, through our shared social delusion. They're just books. It's just pictures. We don't know what he's doing in that locked room of his. But if we were all honest with ourselves, this wouldn't even be an issue anymore.

i think that people like me and Sennorin aren't saying that people with these fantasies shouldn't be trying to get help... i know i'm certainly not. but the 'they're just fantasies' thing isn't to say they're completely healthy and cool, it's just to say that they aren't an issue themselves.

they're potentially indicative of a serious issue that needs to be addressed, but if it's being addressed through some way shape or means, the fantasy isn't an issue in and of itself.

 

[plagiarize]

Anyway, defending pedophilia = wrong.

Defending people who are victimized by confusing and aberrant thoughts = ok I guess. But what's going on in this thread exactly??

Officially derailed?

no. defending child abusers is wrong, but i don't think anyone is doing that.

equating pedophilia to child abuse is failing to make a distinction that should be made.

 

[akira28]

i think that people like me and Sennorin aren't saying that people with these fantasies shouldn't be trying to get help... i know i'm certainly not. but the 'they're just fantasies' thing isn't to say they're completely healthy and cool, it's just to say that they aren't an issue themselves.

they're potentially indicative of a serious issue that needs to be addressed, but if it's being addressed through some way shape or means, the fantasy isn't an issue in and of itself.

If it's a transient fantasy you need to kick away every couple of years from your mental dustbin, I could see it. But if its an active fantasy that you engage in, a live part of your mental fantasy life that you look forward to satisfying, like a bit of mental maintenance, that isn't minor, its active and growing. And it's not something you can put off, it's something you'd need to address. But I see your point, I hope you see mine.


Now here's a banana for you. I like the trappings of youth. I once bought my girl the frilly socks and the patent leather mary jane heels and had her do the pigtails and all of that. It's youth fantasy, but it isn't about little girls. There's a parallel, but there are major disconnects. That's a discussion in itself, but maybe it needs it's own thread.

 

[devenger]

so we agree that it should be a volunteer thing. so no calls to chemically castrate them all.

No. My point is no one is lined up to be chemicaly castrated. By your argument, the masses of struggling would-be molesters should be volunteering for this procedure. I don't think anyone is.

I know the people who have those urges and fight to act on them exist. For some reason I think you're forgetting about the x number of cases of children being abused per year. This "battle" seems to be lost quite often on a daily basis.

Also, I was mocking the ludicrous idea that Disney programming is stemming the desires of degenerates across the country. I guess I should have said a dosage of I Dream of Jeannie DVDs.

 

[bengraven]

Anyway, defending pedophilia = wrong.

Defending people who are victimized by confusing and aberrant thoughts = ok I guess. But what's going on in this thread exactly??

Officially derailed?

Lately all threads involving pedophilia have been getting derailed. I kind of feel guilty to contributing to it and should have heeded the mod warning on the first page.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Hey guys what's going....on....in....No Thanks.

 

[okdakor]

i think that people like me and Sennorin aren't saying that people with these fantasies shouldn't be trying to get help..

Sennorin doesn't have the same line of thinking than you... He said that he doesn't think that pedophiles need help. And also, he seems to say that he would do something against a pedo only because the majority of people thinks about it as a problem... it's a bit disturbing.

 

[akira28]

Lately all threads involving pedophilia have been getting derailed. I kind of feel guilty to contributing to it and should have heeded the mod warning on the first page.

i dunno, it seems we're trying to collectively get our heads around the idea, and some are trying to come to terms with the ideas themselves. it's...strange.

My mind is still kinda blown by the idea of Hollywood. I should just find my inner child and spear him through the heart. A lot of those movies helped form the way I saw the world. Many of them like Up the Academy, involved kids. I dunno, I'm not expressing it properly. It's just like, the masonry of the world is gone to rot.

 

[plagiarize]

No. My point is no one is lined up to be chemicallty castrated. By your argument, the masses of struggling would-be molestors should be volunteering for this procedure. I don't think anyone is.

I know the people who have those urges and fight to act on them exist. For some reason I think you're forgetting about the x number of cases of children being abused per year. This "battle" seems to be lost quite often on a daily basis.

Also, I was mocking the ludicrous idea that Disney programming is stemming the desires of degenerates across the country. I guess I should have said a dosage of I Dream of Jeannie DVDs.

no one is lining up to reveal themselves as a pedophile to the world because they know the treatment that will come to them. thats why i think we need to strike a line between people who rape children and people who dont, rather than drawing the line where it's currently drawn.

who is coming out as a pedophile in this climate even if they haven't done anything remotely criminal? they would potentially lose their friends, their family and their job, even as they treated their problem.

these people are in hiding. we know why. i think that provides a very plausible explanation for why they aren't admitting to ANYONE that they want to sleep with children.

and no, i'm not forgetting the children who are raped. our climate of hatred for pedophiles discourages them from getting the help they need, and pushes them more towards actual rape. that's why i want it to change, not because i feel sorry for the 'poor pedophiles' or anything like that but because i think it's foolish to discriminate against any non criminal group.

Sennorin doesn't have the same line of thinking than you... He said that he doesn't think that pedophiles need help. And also, he seems to say that he would do something against a pedo only because the majority of people thinks about it as a problem... it's a bit disturbing.

noted.

If it's a transient fantasy you need to kick away every couple of years from your mental dustbin, I could see it. But if its an active fantasy that you engage in, a live part of your mental fantasy life that you look forward to satisfying, like a bit of mental maintenance, that isn't minor, its active and growing. And it's not something you can put off, it's something you'd need to address. But I see your point, I hope you see mine.

Now here's a banana for you. I like the trappings of youth. I once bought my girl the frilly socks and the patent leather mary jane heels and had her do the pigtails and all of that. It's youth fantasy, but it isn't about little girls. There's a parallel, but there are major disconnects. That's a discussion in itself, but maybe it needs it's own thread.

most people aren't wired the right way to have that discussion. most people are too paranoid about being seen as a pedophile to have a grown up discussion about that.

i think these people need to seek help, i just think if they do, and if the help is effective, that we should remember that the fantasy itself didn't harm anyone. but again, i understand how repressed desires can be very harmful, so i do understand the point you're making.

when i say 'for some it's just harmless fantasy' i do that mainly to seperate them from the rapists that they're usually lumped with. as i say, i think that fantasy may well be a symptom of something potentially harmful, but i don't think fantasies hurt anyone in and of themselves, and i don't think someone should be persecuted for them even if they're part of a mental illness of some form.

 

[tiff]

My understanding -- and I could be wrong as I readily admit that I'm not a sexual fetish expert -- is that when seemingly normal people discuss rape fantasy and being drawn to the idea, they're not talking about the violent crime aspect of it. For guys, it's my understanding that it's mainly about being a strong, take-charge individual where, though it may not be consensual from the start, the power and passion will take over and by the end she will embrace your alpha maleness. For women, it's about being ravished by a powerful male. When discussing the latter (women), it's important to note that unless we are talking about an abuse victim whose worldview has been shattered, we are obviously talking about a scenario that is not really rape. By definition, you can't want to be raped.

Ah, I'm terribly sorry, I misunderstood you completely! I think you're right, most people who have rape fantasies really fantasize about an idealized view of rape, where the encounter is not strictly or entirely consensual but its enjoyable and pleasurable for both, rather than what rape actually is. As for whether that idealized view is actually rape, I don't feel I'm equipped to say. Either way, I apologize for not being clearer about this earlier. When you pressed about this earlier I didn't understand where you were going.

Now, again, this is the presumption I'm working off of when we are discussing presumably healthy adults. If we're talking about an actual fantasy about raping an individual (imagined or someone they know in real-life), I would be concerned, as I don't think that's healthy. And by that, I'm talking about the fantasy applying exclusively to rape (i.e. the same fantasized victim complying with his advances ruins the fantasy). I find that disturbing.

I understand. The assumption would be that the individual is aroused by the traumatizing and scarring aspects of real rape? I would find that disturbing as well.

In retrospect it was pretty dense of me to not see you attempting to draw the line between a relatively harmless fantasy over idealized rape and actually being aroused by essentially ruining someone's life.

As for how this applies to pedophilia, with particular attention to this distinction? I'm not exactly sure, admittedly. I'm sure there are pedophiles out there who are just attracted to the prepubescent form, or (through ignorance or denial) an idealized sexual relationship with a prepubescent person where the younger partner is not scarred mentally or physically by the experience. I don't think is particularly unhealthy relative to, say, the rape-lover above (actually carrying out this attraction by having sex with a prepubescent would itself be harmful, obviously). Though the thread on GAF a few weeks ago about the child porn website that got broken up made it clear that some people are genuinely attracted to the suffering of children, and I think something like that is extremely unhealthy, and I hope those people get help to erase those urges if possible. And obviously, some just don't care about the child's feelings or well-being. As for what proportions each of these make up among all pedophiles, I have no idea.

 

[plagiarize]

Ah, I'm terribly sorry, I misunderstood you completely! I think you're right, most people who have rape fantasies really fantasize about an idealized view of rape, where the encounter is not strictly or entirely consensual but its enjoyable and pleasurable for both, rather than what rape actually is. As for whether that idealized view is actually rape, I don't feel I'm equipped to say. Either way, I apologize for not being clearer about this earlier. When you pressed about this earlier I didn't understand where you were going.


I understand. The assumption would be that the individual is aroused by the traumatizing and scarring aspects of real rape? I would find that disturbing as well.

In retrospect it was pretty dense of me to not see you attempting to draw the line between a relatively harmless fantasy over idealized rape and actually being aroused by essentially ruining someone's life.

As for how this applies to pedophilia, with particular attention to this distinction? I'm not exactly sure, admittedly. I'm sure there are pedophiles out there who are just attracted to the prepubescent form, or (through ignorance or denial) an idealized sexual relationship with a prepubescent person where the younger partner is not scarred mentally or physically by the experience. I don't think is particularly unhealthy relative to, say, the rape-lover above (actually carrying out this attraction by having sex with a prepubescent would itself be harmful, obviously). Though the thread on GAF a few weeks ago about the child porn website that got broken up made it clear that some people are genuinely attracted to the suffering of children, and I think something like that is extremely unhealthy, and I hope those people get help to erase those urges if possible. And obviously, some just don't care about the child's feelings or well-being. As for what proportions each of these make up among all pedophiles, I have no idea.

the thing about that subset is that the desires to harm aren't always sexual. for the most dangerous pedophiles i don't know that chemical castration would do anything.

 

[devenger]

and no, i'm not forgetting the children who are raped. our climate of hatred for pedophiles discourages them from getting the help they need, and pushes them more towards actual rape. that's why i want it to change, not because i feel sorry for the 'poor pedophiles' or anything like that but because i think it's foolish to discriminate against any non criminal group.

I can see the argument for more tolerance in the name of helping sick people. But I think you're call for reducing the stigma of this illness is unrealistic.

To stop the crime, help the criminal. Fine. If the help is CC, on a convicted offender, we're on the same page. You struggled, you failed, society is not going to let you try again.

However, I think non-offenders are ticking timebombs. Disney TV or a Selena file is not going to cut it forever. If I thought I might hurt a child, I'd want it fixed.

 

[bengraven]

Back on track:

I was listening to Kevin Smith's SIR network last week and he did an interview with his friend and frequent script supervisor Carol Banker, who now has moved on and is a writer/director of Glee.

They told a story together about the shooting of Dogma, when Harvey Weinstein walked into the room one day. It was Kevin, Carol and Matt Damon/Ben Affleck. Weinstein walks in and puts a cigarette out on the carpeted floor. Two of the women on the movie, Linda Fiorentino and I believe Alanis Morisette, are in another room. Harvey gives the women ("the girls") a few hundred dollar bills to basically bribe them like whores to come into the room to talk with him and Smith, et all. He's loud, he's obnoxious and he's misogynistic.

Carol is shaking after he leaves and actually burst into tears. Kevin and Matt start to console her and she's thinking: "this is the man responsible for some of the biggest, greatest films of our time...and he's a fucking degenerate scumbag...what does that mean for someone like me?"

So when this topic came up, this story came to mind. Imagine the shit kids go through, who want to be rich and famous, want to be next big pop star or leading actor. Imagine the creepy producer types, the Weinsteins of lesser caliber who might actually try and act on their feelings...imagine what kind of world those kids are seeing.

i dunno, it seems we're trying to collectively get our heads around the idea, and some are trying to come to terms with the ideas themselves. it's...strange.

I definitely think some of us are trying to come to terms.

 

[El'Kharn]

If a pedo gets help before he defile's any children thats good obviously.
If a pedo gets no help and hurts children they are less than human and should be treated so.
And to the pedo defense squad, fuck you.

 

[DECK'ARD]

Back on track:

I was listening to Kevin Smith's SIR network last week and he did an interview with his friend and frequent script supervisor Carol Banker, who now has moved on and is a writer/director of Glee.

They told a story together about the shooting of Dogma, when Harvey Weinstein walked into the room one day. It was Kevin, Carol and Matt Damon/Ben Affleck. Weinstein walks in and puts a cigarette out on the carpeted floor. Two of the women on the movie, Linda Fiorentino and I believe Alanis Morisette, are in another room. Harvey gives the women ("the girls") a few hundred dollar bills to basically bribe them like whores to come into the room to talk with him and Smith, et all. He's loud, he's obnoxious and he's misogynistic.

Carol is shaking after he leaves and actually burst into tears. Kevin and Matt start to console her and she's thinking: "this is the man responsible for some of the biggest, greatest films of our time...and he's a fucking degenerate scumbag...what does that mean for someone like me?"

So when this topic came up, this story came to mind. Imagine the shit kids go through, who want to be rich and famous, want to be next big pop star or leading actor. Imagine the creepy producer types, the Weinsteins of lesser caliber who might actually try and act on their feelings...imagine what kind of world those kids are seeing.




I definitely think some of us are trying to come to terms.

Yeah, that was the first thing that went through my head on reading the OP: No wonder so many child stars end up fucked up.

I mean there's the whole pressures of fame, growing up too quickly, but I expect there is a far darker side to it for some as well.

 

[plagiarize]

I can see the argument for more tolerance in the name of helping sick people. But I think you're call for reducing the stigma of this illness is unrealistic.

To stop the crime, help the criminal. Fine. If the help is CC, on a convicted offender, we're on the same page. You struggled, you failed, society is not going to let you try again.

However, I think non-offenders are ticking timebombs. Disney TV or a Selena file is not going to cut it forever. If I thought I might hurt a child, I'd want it fixed.

convicted offenders are a whole different matter. i'm not sure what percentage of offenders need to reoffend for CC to be mandated for first time offenders, but that's a different debate. no question at all that it should be mandated for repeat offenders though. only as long as it works on them though, and i only approve of it because it's effects are not lasting. if it was permanent castration, i'd not approve.

i understand why you think non offenders are ticking timebombs but i think that belief is based on fear, rather than logic or evidence.

i know that reducing the stigma of the desire is going to take a long time, if it can happen at all, but i think it would be better for society (and for the children) if it happened. that it would also be better for the pedophiles that don't rape kids is practically irrelevant to me.

 

[Sennorin]

Sennorin doesn't have the same line of thinking than you... He said that he doesn't think that pedophiles need help. And also, he seems to say that he would do something against a pedo only because the majority of people thinks about it as a problem... it's a bit disturbing.

So let me try to explain so that you don´t have to be disturbed (but probably will be either way). I don´t think pedophiles need help in the sense of chemically castrating them. Their sexual attraction is wrong within our society, but it´s still their sexual attraction. Maybe I´m just better in putting myself in the shoes of others, but I´d *hate* to have my sexual attraction/drive be taken from me. Simply, because masturbation is fun, too. Being forced into being an asexual person sounds horrible to me. Maybe not to you?
Where pedophiles need help is in terms of tolerance/acceptance. Read: Not tolerating/accepting child molesters, but those people that have done nothing and don´t plan on doing something. Plagiarize already mentioned it and I can but repeat: We have to encourage those people to keep their urges under control by accepting them as one of us, instead of scaring them into hiding, where at best they keep supressing their urges and lead a terrible life in constant for of being found out, or at worst let loose of their control, because they feel, and no wrongly so, mistreated.

I cannot emphasize enough how much I hate intolerance, and seeing how so much hate is directed to a group that is already miserable as is, is hard to bear. If I was born 20 years earlier, you´d see me defend homosexuals. 20 years earlier, and I´d defend women. Even earlier and I´d defend african americans. Intolerance sucks, and what sucks even more about it is that with each new generation of human beings, we forget that there´s always *a next step*, the next in line of intolerances. Right now we´re talking pedophiles. If that´s done, we might start arguing about animals. If that´s done, we might start debates about machines´/A.I.´s rights. Just because we live in a world where we´ve just come to accept homosexuality doesn´t mean we can pat ourselves on the back and stop thinking about intolerance.

As for your second sentence, you possibly interpreted my reply in the most negative, unfair way. I wouldn´t let my son live next to a pedophile´s house because I´m a bad, evil person. I trust people, I believe them, and I always try to see the best in other people. Little example: When I sell stuff on ebay and the auction ends on sunday, I´ll always send the stuff I sold on Monday morning. My brother recently called me dumb, because it´s such a risk not to first wait for your money to arrive. But I don´t care. So far, it always worked out fine and I don´t want to start mistrusting people. That makes me possibly naive, but don´t paint me as some kind of evil sicko. I won´t accept that.

 

[devenger]

I cannot emphasize enough how much I hate intolerance, and seeing how so much hate is directed to a group that is already miserable as is, is hard to bear. If I was born 20 years earlier, you´d see me defend homosexuals. 20 years earlier, and I´d defend women. Even earlier and I´d defend african americans. Intolerance sucks, and what sucks even more about it is that with each new generation of human beings, we forget that there´s always *a next step*, the next in line of intolerances.

Wow. I don't need to hear about your story now. Your thinking is quite flawed.

For you, wanting to molest children is the new black.

 

[Lonewolf_92]

The way I see it, if the pedophile is actively receiving help from a medical professional who feels the person in question isn't a threat to society, that's fine. Don't expect me to leave my kids with them, but I have nothing against them personally. The way I see it, it's a mental disorder like addiction, and like addicts the farther they can get and stay away from the source of their addiction the better it is for everyone. That means no CP, no fantasies, no driving past schools or hanging around at parks, no hanging out with other pedophiles outside of treatment (FYI, group therapy is common for pedophilia), nothing that can set off the urge because, just like the junkie when confronted with the chance to get a fix, they can't realistically control themselves because of their disorder.
What guys like Sennorin (especially Sennorin) don't seem to understand is, they're not the people we're talking about in threads like this when we're talking about pedophiles, so the defense they bring up has no place in these threads and do nothing but make them sound like they're defending those actively seeking out and harming kids (which IS what these threads are usually about) and causing massive thread derailments as people wonder WTF they're on about.

 

[akira28]

For you, wanting to molest children is the new black.

Hmmrrmmrrrrrr...

 

[devenger]

For you, wanting to molest children is the new black.

Someone PM'd me about the meaning of this response.

Serronin thinks that people with these urges are the next oppressed minority.

I thought my response had a little more something, but I got called a troll and was greatly misrepresented, so I thought I'd sort that out.

 

[Goron2000]

So let me try to explain so that you don´t have to be disturbed (but probably will be either way). I don´t think pedophiles need help in the sense of chemically castrating them. Their sexual attraction is wrong within our society, but it´s still their sexual attraction. Maybe I´m just better in putting myself in the shoes of others, but I´d *hate* to have my sexual attraction/drive be taken from me. Simply, because masturbation is fun, too. Being forced into being an asexual person sounds horrible to me. Maybe not to you?
Where pedophiles need help is in terms of tolerance/acceptance. Read: Not tolerating/accepting child molesters, but those people that have done nothing and don´t plan on doing something. Plagiarize already mentioned it and I can but repeat: We have to encourage those people to keep their urges under control by accepting them as one of us, instead of scaring them into hiding, where at best they keep supressing their urges and lead a terrible life in constant for of being found out, or at worst let loose of their control, because they feel, and no wrongly so, mistreated.

I cannot emphasize enough how much I hate intolerance, and seeing how so much hate is directed to a group that is already miserable as is, is hard to bear. If I was born 20 years earlier, you´d see me defend homosexuals. 20 years earlier, and I´d defend women. Even earlier and I´d defend african americans. Intolerance sucks, and what sucks even more about it is that with each new generation of human beings, we forget that there´s always *a next step*, the next in line of intolerances. Right now we´re talking pedophiles. If that´s done, we might start arguing about animals. If that´s done, we might start debates about machines´/A.I.´s rights. Just because we live in a world where we´ve just come to accept homosexuality doesn´t mean we can pat ourselves on the back and stop thinking about intolerance.

As for your second sentence, you possibly interpreted my reply in the most negative, unfair way. I wouldn´t let my son live next to a pedophile´s house because I´m a bad, evil person. I trust people, I believe them, and I always try to see the best in other people. Little example: When I sell stuff on ebay and the auction ends on sunday, I´ll always send the stuff I sold on Monday morning. My brother recently called me dumb, because it´s such a risk not to first wait for your money to arrive. But I don´t care. So far, it always worked out fine and I don´t want to start mistrusting people. That makes me possibly naive, but don´t paint me as some kind of evil sicko. I won´t accept that.

Ok, i've been watching this thread for a while and this crosses the line. Comparing these groups to pedophiles is more than offensive and you need to stop talking.
All these groups went through so much to be called equal, all of them deserving of equality. Pedophiles hurt innocents, even if they never touch a child where does their masturbation material come from? how can we accept people who's fantasy is going to cause harm?

 

[bengraven]

I try and tread carefully around Sennorin, because I'm convinced he's baiting someone to point the finger and scream "pedophile" and he will try and have that person banned...I'm hoping if that ever happens (and it won't be me), that the mod checks his post history.

If I was born 20 years earlier, you´d see me defend homosexuals. 20 years earlier, and I´d defend women. Even earlier and I´d defend african americans. Intolerance sucks, and what sucks even more about it is that with each new generation of human beings, we forget that there´s always *a next step*, the next in line of intolerances. Right now we´re talking pedophiles. If that´s done, we might start arguing about animals. If that´s done, we might start debates about machines´/A.I.´s rights. Just because we live in a world where we´ve just come to accept homosexuality doesn´t mean we can pat ourselves on the back and stop thinking about intolerance.

Are you now defending the right for pedophiles to get married to their lovers as well?

 

[G-Fex]

shes like a creepy little doll

She is isn't she? dolls are very nice.

 

[Red Liquorice]

She is isn't she? dolls are very nice.

Something, something, avatar quote....

 

[okdakor]

If I was born 20 years earlier, you´d see me defend homosexuals. 20 years earlier, and I´d defend women. Even earlier and I´d defend african americans. Intolerance sucks, and what sucks even more about it is that with each new generation of human beings, we forget that there´s always *a next step*, the next in line of intolerances.

Society evolves, yes. But all your examples are righteous ones... and it's good, it means that every big steps we make as a society is *good*, in the right way.
But there is no debate about wanting, or even thinking to hurt a child. If one day the question is even raised - should we considerate pedophilia as just another taboo ? - it won't be positive for us, as a society. It would mean that we're declining.
Pedophilia isn't an eventual step. It's not a fight worth fighting for, find other real intolerances to defend.

 

[Sennorin]

Ok, i've been watching this thread for a while and this crosses the line. Comparing these groups to pedophiles is more than offensive and you need to stop talking.
All these groups went through so much to be called equal, all of them deserving of equality. Pedophiles hurt innocents, even if they never touch a child where does their masturbation material come from? how can we accept people who's fantasy is going to cause harm?

This posting is so sad, because it´s perfect proof of what´s wrong. That is exactly the kind of reaction that all those groups had to suffer through until the were accepted. And yet you´re writing this with an entitlement as if you were some kind of objective instance that has exclusive rights to decide what´s worth tolerating and what´s not. I´d say, get off your high horse.

Spoiler

And people don´t need "material" to masturbate. Imagination rocks, ya know

@bengraven: I´m not trying to bait anyone and I´m not fighting for pedophiles to be able to live out their fantasies, because that´s impossible. If you have to say something, PM me, because I find it insulting how you keep hitting on me, and derailing interesting discussions that way. I will reply to your PM, so if you´re interested in a private debate, do so, I won´t turn you away.

 

[Doctor West]

So let me try to explain so that you don´t have to be disturbed (but probably will be either way). I don´t think pedophiles need help in the sense of chemically castrating them. Their sexual attraction is wrong within our society, but it´s still their sexual attraction. Maybe I´m just better in putting myself in the shoes of others, but I´d *hate* to have my sexual attraction/drive be taken from me. Simply, because masturbation is fun, too. Being forced into being an asexual person sounds horrible to me. Maybe not to you?
Where pedophiles need help is in terms of tolerance/acceptance. Read: Not tolerating/accepting child molesters, but those people that have done nothing and don´t plan on doing something. Plagiarize already mentioned it and I can but repeat: We have to encourage those people to keep their urges under control by accepting them as one of us, instead of scaring them into hiding, where at best they keep supressing their urges and lead a terrible life in constant for of being found out, or at worst let loose of their control, because they feel, and no wrongly so, mistreated.

I cannot emphasize enough how much I hate intolerance, and seeing how so much hate is directed to a group that is already miserable as is, is hard to bear. If I was born 20 years earlier, you´d see me defend homosexuals. 20 years earlier, and I´d defend women. Even earlier and I´d defend african americans. Intolerance sucks, and what sucks even more about it is that with each new generation of human beings, we forget that there´s always *a next step*, the next in line of intolerances. Right now we´re talking pedophiles. If that´s done, we might start arguing about animals. If that´s done, we might start debates about machines´/A.I.´s rights. Just because we live in a world where we´ve just come to accept homosexuality doesn´t mean we can pat ourselves on the back and stop thinking about intolerance.

As for your second sentence, you possibly interpreted my reply in the most negative, unfair way. I wouldn´t let my son live next to a pedophile´s house because I´m a bad, evil person. I trust people, I believe them, and I always try to see the best in other people. Little example: When I sell stuff on ebay and the auction ends on sunday, I´ll always send the stuff I sold on Monday morning. My brother recently called me dumb, because it´s such a risk not to first wait for your money to arrive. But I don´t care. So far, it always worked out fine and I don´t want to start mistrusting people. That makes me possibly naive, but don´t paint me as some kind of evil sicko. I won´t accept that.

You need serious help if you honestly believe that pedos are akin to those group. Serious fucking help.