Rockin' Ranger
Member
"I just need to prove myself to my old man."
Sam is such a bastard.
"The full Scrooge McDuck."
"I don't usually do this, but what is your name?
Sam is still a bastard.
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Critical Role: Voice Actors Playing D&D
- Thread starter Henchmen21
- Start date
Sam is such a bastard.
Sam is still a bastard.
Jay Shadow
Member
So I like that Sam
uses a normal sized mug now that he plays a normal sized character. That's some attention to detail.
Calcium
Banned
Taryon Darrington
The Grog/
Taryon
I'm pretty sick of Vox Machina acting like a bunch of assholes. Vax went through a whole emo phase when he hit Kynan for wanting to join the group and he does it all over again with
Taryon
Ugh, more Keylith focused plot. I hope they keep the rest of the Aramente brief because her character is practically non-existent at this point. More often than not it is just Marisha saying stupid shit trying to be funny then leaning on the "awkward princess" crutch when she inevitably fails at it.
Jay Shadow
Member
Joe Manganiello has a pretty great game room. It even comes fully stocked with DMs.
Calcium
Banned
Yeah, Vax knocking a dude in the skull for 86 damage that he just met was so friendly and necessary. Then everyone else entering combat and doing even more damage to the dude was needed. Not assholes at all. Not talking about the players, I'm talking about the characters. Vox Machina are terrible people.
Jay Shadow
Member
A rogue sneak attacking a guy in the back on a surprise round with an enlarged Goliath in his face isn't a test. Most of Vox Machina would fail that test too.
Difference between a trail by combat and being sneak attacked for 80+ damage in the back of the spine and head, they were clearly taking it out on Sam he even meta commented on Marisha's eyes the cruelty towards him, you can see her reaction and how it effected her in the moment. To be fair Sam is a shit stirrer of epic proportions but Matt was surprised by their actions and after the break it seemed they may have had a chat, VM are assholes but that whole ordeal was bordering towards alignment changes.
I mean, he didn't mean to get a crit. But yeah--I think the entire point of their group is that they're terrible people that still try to do the right thing and have become heroes totally be accident. It's a fun theme to explore with people's characters! Plus the entire combat scene allowed for some pretty great roleplay. Also, re: them initially writing
Taryon
Alpha Centauri
Member
matt said he didn't say anything to them during the break, but their entire mood completely shifted when they came back.
I wished they followed through so we could have gotten alignment shifts and potential DM consequences down the future
All of a sudden Liam is giving pep talk and healing him, then keyleth is healing when she was about to attack before the break. I guess 20 mins was a good time for them to reflect on what exactly they were doing.
Calcium
Banned
Fuck off with that shit. We're here to discuss the show, so we're going to discuss it.
Even if he didn't roll a Nat 20 it still would have been sneak attack damage for a decent amount. Either way though, completely uncalled for. I would've been fine with the "training" scene if it were just
Taryon and Dotty
Healing him was almost worse. "Hey, I'm gonna keep you alive so we can continue to torture you!"
Matt has said there was no chat during the break. Once again people are just overreacting. Calls for an alignment change are absurd.
Seriously? Followed through on what? I don't get how people think what they did wasn't their plan all along. They were never trying to kill him.
Calcium
Banned
What was the last alignment change? Stealing the broom? You don't think the group nearly beating a dude to death is worse than taking a broom? Right, absurd.
The fact that their plan to begin with was to violently beat someone they just met is in and of itself a problem. Even Matt said it, it was fucked up.
Alpha Centauri
Member
Had the fireball connected with any more force, he would have been in the negative. Only thing that would have saved him would be PC mechanics. Any other character in the world would have died.
And they recognize how shitty it was, why are you acting overly defensive. Nobody is taking it that seriously.
Jay Shadow
Member
Bitching about Keyleth is what reddit does too, but this thread does it all the time.
We're already reddit.
He did go to break pointing out how fucked up the situation was. Didn't really need to say anything more during the break.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
I stopped watching months ago, but I just checked out episode 85 after seeing this thread, and it's great/terrible to see that Sam is still blowing everyone away in the character and acting departments.
I'm not on board with how upset everyone got over the hazing of Tary. He was acting like a pompous, rude little shit to them from the start and was expecting to get a guided tour through literal Hell. They kept asking him before he tagged along if he could hang and he still didn't realize what he was getting into. Realistically, they would have just left a character like that behind rather than bringing along a liability, or worse, a hinderance. However, considering it's a player character, they couldn't just say, "Nah, we're good. Bye!". So after being forced to take him along, giving him a taste of actual combat (except for the fact that the three members of VM that were actually fighting with him and his robot companion were all holding back and healing him) seemed like a reasonable enough thing to do. They have healers in the group and healers in Whitestone. He was never in any real danger. Vax hit him way too hard at first, but he didn't mean to roll a crit. I wonder if he hadn't crit, and only did 30-something damage on that first hit, if there would have been as much community outcry. Keyleth probably should have just lobbed a fireball past him for flavor, but it was a fun encounter that got us to know Tary much better than we would have with him just peacocking around. Better to know where he stands now rather than in the middle of a real battle.
I will agree that Vax literally learning nothing from how he treated Kynan, even after luxuriating in the plot line of his own backup character's arc while forcing the rest of the party to go along with it, was pretty shitty. But Liam/Vax can be pretty shitty sometimes. Like later in this same episode when he had a hissy fit after him saying "We want a discount" didn't immediately work on that dock worker even though he barely gave Matt a chance to respond. "Everybody else gets to roll except for me!". Fuck off, Liam. Fuck off.
I will agree that Vax literally learning nothing from how he treated Kynan, even after luxuriating in the plot line of his own backup character's arc while forcing the rest of the party to go along with it, was pretty shitty. But Liam/Vax can be pretty shitty sometimes. Like later in this same episode when he had a hissy fit after him saying "We want a discount" didn't immediately work on that dock worker even though he barely gave Matt a chance to respond. "Everybody else gets to roll except for me!". Fuck off, Liam. Fuck off.
Henchmen21
Banned
I agree with the first paragraph. It's far more meta-gamy to me when you have characters that have never met before be super best buds just because the players irl are friends. Like with Kit Buss (no offense to Kit) but when she guested that one ep a long while back, all of VM was super friendly to her character even though they had just had to fight 3 bad guys because of her characters backstory.
Jest Chillin
Member
I'm also fine with roughing up Tary. The ONLY reason the community reacted badly to it is because it's Sam's character. They were bitching about it in the chat before the fight even happened.
The reality is VM just went through a ton of shit emotionally with that entire arc and lost a dear friend, then comes this pompous ass trying to throw money around and take control of the group with zero realt combat experience. He talked down to EVERYONE and even casually mentioned how he wants to dight a dragon one day.
Basically Sam built this dude's personality specifically to have the terrible timing of rubbing salt in a brand new wound for VM, so I'm glad they gave Tary some lumps as that's the far more realistic reaction. And I don't feel there was a lesson to be learned with wanna-be-rogue from the Vestige mission. That kid made his own fucked up choices own his own volition. Putting that on Vax is dumb logic.
VM may be the "heroes" of our entertainment but they are not flawless lawful good people. They're heavily flawed and have a ton of baggage. They're dicks to a LOT of people except when they need something from them. Why would Tary be an exception to that unless they were meta gaming because it was a player character?
The reality is VM just went through a ton of shit emotionally with that entire arc and lost a dear friend, then comes this pompous ass trying to throw money around and take control of the group with zero realt combat experience. He talked down to EVERYONE and even casually mentioned how he wants to dight a dragon one day.
Basically Sam built this dude's personality specifically to have the terrible timing of rubbing salt in a brand new wound for VM, so I'm glad they gave Tary some lumps as that's the far more realistic reaction. And I don't feel there was a lesson to be learned with wanna-be-rogue from the Vestige mission. That kid made his own fucked up choices own his own volition. Putting that on Vax is dumb logic.
VM may be the "heroes" of our entertainment but they are not flawless lawful good people. They're heavily flawed and have a ton of baggage. They're dicks to a LOT of people except when they need something from them. Why would Tary be an exception to that unless they were meta gaming because it was a player character?
Calcium
Banned
I find it interesting that so many people justify nearly beating a dude to death just because he has an annoying personality.
How? It's the same exact situation. If Tary were to run off and become a villain because of what happened it'd by Kynan all over again. There is absolutely a lesson that Vax should have learned there.
You're in for quite a ride. Just hang on through the audio hiccups and the Orion and you're in for a treat.
How? It's the same exact situation. If Tary were to run off and become a villain because of what happened it'd by Kynan all over again. There is absolutely a lesson that Vax should have learned there.
You're in for quite a ride. Just hang on through the audio hiccups and the Orion and you're in for a treat.
littleworm
Member
Started watching this a few weeks ago and already up to episode 27. I've been really enjoying it, especially Travis and Matt and their character(s).
Liam did explicitly say that Vax was using non-lethal damage. He was givin' the dude some lumps and getting knocked out really does put you in your place. Admittedly, Keyleth tossing a damn fireball seemed like it ran counter to what Grog and Vax were (perhaps poorly) trying to do.
Alpha Centauri
Member
It's apart of her charm.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
VM are murderhobos through and through.
Jest Chillin
Member
Tary doesn't have "just" an annoying personality. He's an entitled jerk. Or at least presented himself that way. His introductory backstory is the polar opposite of everyone in VM. Literally having a ton of money and power and taking all of it for granted and bragging about it.
I'm not saying it's not the same situation, I'm saying there was no lesson in the FIRST situation because putting that dudes life choices on Vax's shoulders because Vax didn't take random dude #7373848 under his wing is bs. Kynen can feel however he wants to about it but his choosing to side with a homocidal maniac is his own choices. It's not Vax OR VM's responsibility to take every green adventurer wanna be into their tutelege.
Take your time. I rushed through in a month or two and I wish I would have taken more time. I guess that's a personal thing about how you feel about the "hurry up and wait" feeling of catching up to the new episodes of a long running show.
That's hyperbolic. Worst case scenario, they would have accidentally knocked him out, healed him back up and sent him on his way. Yes, that's a gamey way of looking at things, but that's just the way you look at it a lot of the time whether you're trying to meta game or not. Tary is actually lucky that Vox Machina are good people. Most traveling bands of brigands, as he put it, would have been like "Who does this asshole think he is?", beaten his ass (or killed him) and taken all of his expensive shit he flashes around.
Nice. The show is about to get much much better from 28 onward.
Calcium
Banned
Maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but didn't Kynan specifically join up with Ridley to get back at Vox Machina for how they treated him? I'd certainly put that on Vax.
Keylith's fireball could have absolutely killed him. So worst case scenario he dies.
Do you mean if his helm had blown up? A fireball by itself definitely wasn't going to take him to negative 106. Unconscious and dead aren't the same thing.
Jest Chillin
Member
That's what Kynen said, yes. That doesn't actually make it Vax's fault. Kynen could have joined another band of adventurers or The Grasp or anyone who was not a psychotic killer. He made that choice of his own volition and to make that choice, to seek vengeance for a minor slight, means Kynen is screwed up and making his own screwed up decisions.
As for the Fireball, Prismatic Spray is not only deadly (20d6 max damage possible) but can banish a being from this plane of existence. Using it makes sense for the character and Kyleth going overboard makes sense for hers as well.
I think he meant lethal vs non-lethal damage. You can declare nom-lethal weapon attacks. Fireball can't be non-lethal.
Testing Tarryon by combat was a sound idea. What wasn't was doing it the way they did. It's not much of a trial when they're down to singel digits hit points before they know it's a trial (imagine that being done to Grog at the trial forge in the previous episode). Tarryon ended up only having one or two rounds (don't quite remember) to show what he could do.
At best they learned much less than they could have about the armour, helmet and his skillset, at worst Keyleth's fireball knocks him out and she'd have to bring him up before failing three death saving throws.
I agree with Matt. How it was done was fucked up.
At best they learned much less than they could have about the armour, helmet and his skillset, at worst Keyleth's fireball knocks him out and she'd have to bring him up before failing three death saving throws.
I agree with Matt. How it was done was fucked up.
Calcium
Banned
Yes, what he said. I'd like to think there is a difference in knocking someone out with called non-lethal damage and burning them with a fireball. I realize there isn't much of a difference gameplay wise, but still Keylith went a little far there.
Right, but he wouldn't have made those poor decisions if Vax hadn't knocked him out like he did. None of that would have happened if Vax wasn't an asshole to the kid. So it's his fault that Kynan's crazy was directed at the group.
Exactly. If it were just Grog against Tary and Dotty that would have been completely fine. An entire group of dragon slaying adventurers coming down on a single dude at the same time was fucked up. You know it's bad if Matt breaks and calls you on it.
Jest Chillin
Member
No, he would've eventually been slighted by someone else and vowed enmity against them instead of Vax. Trying to kill Vax and VM is waaaay overboard for what happened to him. The kid has major issues and that has nothing to do with Vax.
Matt's view carries no more weight than anyone else's when we're talking about the morality of the choices the characters make. He's an awesome person and an spectacular DM, but him "calling them out" is just his observation just as each of us have ours.
Calcium
Banned
Right, but if Vax hadn't hit him it wouldn't have caused VM trouble. Whether or not Kynan would have done the same thing to someone else is irrelevant. Vax directly caused Kynan to set his sights on the group, so it was his fault.
I didn't say his opinion carried more weight. Matt usually lets things unfold and rarely feels the need to voice his opinion on what the group does. The fact that he felt the need to say something shows how extreme of a choice it was for VM.
People keep saying that, but it wasn't the entire group going after just one guy with all they had. It was three against two (Grog backhanded Doty once, and that's all, right?) and the three members of Vox Machina were holding back and healed him after they realized Vax hit him too hard at first. It seems disingenuous to act like the whole group was fighting one guy and really going for blood. Unless I'm misremembering, the participating Vox Machina members each did a single attack.
It's fine to not like how they did things, but let's not change what actually happened when discussing it.
Calcium
Banned
Yeah, you're right. My bad. It wasn't the entire group, I think Laura wasn't there at the time. Everyone else rolled initiative, though. Percy only held back because Talesin looked over and saw his health which prompted Marisha to heal him. Had Talesin not looked at his health it could have been a very different situation if Percy and Keylith threw down. So while not the entire group, it was still 4 higher level characters coming down on one guy.
I may be wrong here as I don't know all the responsibilities of a DM. But is this entirely true? Would he not be the one that decides if a character strays too far from their alignment and shifting it if he thinks it's appropriate? I think I remember one of the characters getting an alignment shift from him not too long ago (going back to good, from neutral. If I remember correctly).
Not that I'm in the camp demanding alignment shifts.
Calcium
Banned
I took it as Jest saying Matt the person, not necessarily Matt the DM. Understandably we rarely get to know what the DM thinks about the events, but Matt voices his opinion from time to time.
Sorry to split hairs, but it was still three on two. Just because Percy rolled initiative doesn't mean he should be considered part of the fight because he purposefully didn't do anything. Why he decided to hold back doesn't really matter, he still did. And considering Grog only attacked Doty (and Doty attacked Vax), it was definitely 3 vs 2.
Vax got an alignment shift to chaotic neutral from neutral good when she stole the flying broom.
I think if they were just kicking Tary's ass and/or stole his stuff they should have gotten an alignment change. However, it seemed clear that everyone was doing more of a "Hey, this is the kind of stuff you're in for if you pal around with us. Still sure you can hang?" hazing. Matt just seemed surprised and amused when he said "This is fucked up" because he didn't know where they were going with their actions. It would have been weird to see how the whole thing played out and then given them an alignment change, in my opinion.
Ah, sure. I guess he did say it as the break started. So that makes sense.
Calcium
Banned
That's true, but Percy entered initiative with the intention of jumping into the fray. If Talesin hadn't looked at Sam's health I think he absolutely would have joined in. I'm pretty sure Talesin looked down at his remaining health before it was his turn so he chose to do nothing. I'm not going to allow metagaming to excuse character intent in this instance. Not that it really matters, though, just saying.
Well I think we can all agree it worked out in the end, and we got to know Tary a lot faster than we might have otherwise.
I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop with him, though. Like Sam's going to steal from the group or sell them out or wipe out the Water Ashari by "accident" or something.
Calcium
Banned
Did we, though? Sam seemed to drop the "boo hoo" routine when everyone was out of earshot and he was talking to Dotty. I assumed it was just him getting back into the "character" his book was portraying, but it'd be interesting if he was lying about everything.
Exactly. You don't think that was a telling character moment? That's why I said I'm now waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Calcium
Banned
It's really hard to say. If it were any other player I'd say that Tary breaking down was us getting to see through all the bullshit and get down to who he really is. This is Sam Riegel, though, so I wouldn't be surprised at all if he throws a curve-ball at us.
That being said I'm pretty bummed that Sam is introducing us to Tary now instead of in a new campaign. He is a really fun and interesting character so far, it'd be a shame to only get a small window of time with him before he inevitably brings Scanlan back.
I think I'm not communicating myself well. The fact that he broke down during the fight and his crying and whimpering stopped as soon as the party left is the telling character moment that I'm talking about. Whether they were crocodile tears or he was just trying to salvage his own self image even though he and Doty were the only ones present, both options would be insights into his character.
I trust Sam to make whatever character he makes in the next campaign just as memorable and interesting. He's the player I'm the least worried about having to switch to a new character in the next campaign. I think some of the others might struggle for a few weeks, at least, to define their new characters. Sam does some really layered character work without having to utilize long winded speeches.
Prithee Be Careful
Industry Professional
Official Taryon art has dropped...
those boots though