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[LincolnTunnel]

Thematically, I agree with you - I've found (and felt it was much easier) that the burden of advice is actually on the receiver to actually see if what they are saying is at all helpful.

Let's take something simple:

"get the fuck off genji you arent doing anything"

now my post is suggesting (and responses to this thread) that many people will be like "guy is being toxic, ignore him"

where others - especially those focusing on self-improvement would say

"let me look, am I actually doing nothing - hmm, my damage seems low, and I don't seem to be taking down their healers/picking off low health heroes - he might have something here" or conversely - realize the guy actually doesn't know what he's talking about (this is usually rare)

and make the necessary changes.

to the poster before me - I see a far more of the former than the latter.

Are you actually trying to argue that "get the fuck off genji you aren't doing anything" is constructive criticism?

 

[Alucrid]

Thematically, I agree with you - I've found (and felt it was much easier) that the burden of advice is actually on the receiver to actually see if what they are saying is at all helpful.

Let's take something simple:

"get the fuck off genji you arent doing anything"

now my post is suggesting (and responses to this thread) that many people will be like "guy is being toxic, ignore him"

where others - especially those focusing on self-improvement would say

"let me look, am I actually doing nothing - hmm, my damage seems low, and I don't seem to be taking down their healers/picking off low health heroes - he might have something here" or conversely - realize the guy actually doesn't know what he's talking about (this is usually rare)

and make the necessary changes.

to the poster before me - I see a far more of the former than the latter.

the guy is being toxic. that's not to say there might not be some truth to be gleaned from his statement, but there's a significantly smaller chance that'll happen when you tell someone to "get the fuck off" a character. if he really wanted to win and wanted a switch he'd say something more along the lines of "hey they have a phara and we don't have any hitscan can someone swap to mccree or soldier?" i'd probably say the "fuck off genji" guy's tilt is going to lose them the game.

I'm saying its criticism, whether you want to take it as constructive or toxic is up to you...thats the point..

there's very little that's constructive in that statement at all. you're not saying why genji might be a bad pick and what better alternatives there might be.

 

[rocK`]

Are you actually trying to argue that "get the fuck off genji you aren't doing anything" is constructive criticism?

I'm saying its criticism, whether you want to take it as constructive or toxic is up to you...thats the point..

 

[LincolnTunnel]

I'm saying its criticism, whether you want to take it as constructive or toxic is up to you...thats the point..

That's fucking ridiculous. There's absolutely nothing constructive about that sentence, and nobody is going to take it as such. It's absolutely toxic, because all you're doing is shouting at someone that they suck. You're offing no information as to what they're doing wrong, and you're phrasing it in such a way that you look like a huge jackass. Why would anyone ever take that seriously?

 

[RollerMeister]

I just spent the last 10 minutes talking to people who disagree with me - are you reading that or not?

No, I was writing the post, did you say something that proved me wrong?

 

[KillLaCam]

Who the hell do gaffers be playing online with

^

 

[Steve Youngblood]

oh

my

god

a breath of fresh air.

thanks for this - you are explaining exactly what I'm trying to convey. I do not understand the 'mute randoms they have nothing useful to say', especially in ranked based games.

Again. I think there's like 3 different things at least we could discuss.

1.) Should people playing an online competitive feel any obligation t get better at the expense of having fun?

2.) Is there a skill at offering criticism of fellow players online that yields better results?

3.) Are online carebear safespaces creating coddled environments where people don't feel compelled to get better because they receive nothing but disingenuous encouragement even when there are easy remedies to their poor play?

There could be a fruitful conversation about the first two. The last one is just bonkers and shows a complete disconnect from how almost all online communities operate.

Like, I'm lousy at Overwatch and I know it. It's why I've logged all of about 2 hours into it in the year that I've owned it. If I didn't have a newborn to take care of right now I'd log on and play some ranked matches and see what the response is. To say the least, I'm incredibly pessimistic that I'll get "good try guy, you be you!" encouragement when I contribute absolutely nothing to the cause.

 

[Leafhopper]

This. For some reason a good chunk of those that offer advice after a match seem to think that being a colossal dick about it will make the lesson they are imparting stick, and that a complete lack of social skills when talking to someone you're playing a game with for the evening is something to be proud of as a grown adult.

In the heat of the moment I am sure people aren't trying to be a dick about it but, it comes off that way.

The thing about any discussion of constructive criticism in a context like this (team activity with strangers you're unlikely to talk to ever again) is that the person offering up the criticism in the first place is generally making a lot of potentially unwarranted assumptions:

1. That the person they're criticizing is even at fault. In something like a team FPS, individual players' info can be limited enough that they can't even necessarily draw correct conclusions about who's responsible for a loss just based on what they saw from their own perspective while playing. (This is why ongoing competitive teams in any game review tape to learn from mistakes instead of relying on in-the-moment observations.)
2. That they've correctly identified the problem. Even if you know which player is dragging things down, you might not correctly identify why. (This is part of why "switch characters" is such useless advice -- someone's character choice is extremely unlikely to be the proximate cause of their problem.)
3. That they can offer advice that actually addresses the problem. I've seen people correctly identify the player that's dragging and what the general issue is, but not know enough about their character or party role or whatever to actually help. (This is a problem you see a ton in MMOs where people are like "speaking as a person who only plays DPS, here's how you should heal better...")
4. That they can actually communicate the advice. Teaching people is difficult and requires special skills and techniques of its own; most people who haven't practiced it aren't actually able to convey a skill to someone else through conversation. A lot of online game advice is something that could be useful presented in one way, but is actually just a smug low-content slam the way it's actually delivered.
5. That the person can implement the advice. There's a lot of cases where someone's playing at their current effective skill cap, or as well as they can without learning a new skill or technique, or even they have some external issue like a physical control issue, etc. that means your specific advice isn't something they can actually do.
6. That the person is interested in learning to do better in whatever you specifically poked them about. Unless you're playing in a medium-to-high-level competitive environment, there's a good chance the person is working on developing skills just by playing and maybe doesn't want to give up on what they're actually working on (say, learning to play their current character better) to work on what you want them to (say, fulfilling a totally different team role) instead.

When you look over all that, the degree to which most advice offered up is useless should be pretty clear. Actually being able to say something that helps another stranger get better means your own skill, knowledge, observation, and communication ability all have to be pretty top notch. Most people who have good awareness will get that and be very careful about when and how they choose to offer advice; most people with middling to poor awareness won't get any of that and will think they can just shout at people to change their behavior, which means on average a person offering advice is far more likely to be doing a shitty job of it than a good one.

This is a pretty good post, I didn't really think about how accurate the advice or what advice would be offered if it even is the correct advice aimed at the correct person.

Thematically, I agree with you - I've found (and felt it was much easier) that the burden of advice is actually on the receiver to actually see if what they are saying is at all helpful.

Let's take something simple:

"get the fuck off genji you arent doing anything"

now my post is suggesting (and responses to this thread) that many people will be like "guy is being toxic, ignore him"

where others - especially those focusing on self-improvement would say

"let me look, am I actually doing nothing - hmm, my damage seems low, and I don't seem to be taking down their healers/picking off low health heroes - he might have something here" or conversely - realize the guy actually doesn't know what he's talking about (this is usually rare)

and make the necessary changes.

to the poster before me - I see a far more of the former than the latter.

This is a bit of a stretch.

 

[charlequin]

Let's take something simple:

"get the fuck off genji you arent doing anything"

now my post is suggesting (and responses to this thread) that many people will be like "guy is being toxic, ignore him"

Yes, because that person is a) being a jerk, but also (and much more importantly, by your stated standards) b) giving awful advice.

I mentioned this before and I'll reiterate here: telling someone to change characters is 100% useless advice. There's a few reasons (apologies to Gotchaye whose content I'm partially lifting here):

• In many cases, people playing hero or character based games are going to learn primarily how to play one particular character, with any cross-training happening later after they've already built up some skill. Regardless of ideal composition choices, someone switching from a character they know to one they've never touched before will play worse.
• Alternately, maybe it's a character someone's in the process of learning. Telling them to switch isn't going to help their actual goal and it also won't meaningfully improve their ability to get better faster.
• In most cases besides the most extreme, any composition issue is going to sit alongside other areas that could simply be improved by different play or strategy. Whoever you're telling to switch could probably also improve the team's results just by playing Genji differently or with more skill, and maybe more efficiently if there are obvious things they could change about their performance.
• In any composition issue, there's going to be multiple ways to change things to improve overall team setup, and people are (rightfully) going to resist being picked out to unilaterally change rather than a discussion happening about how everyone can contribute to addressing the issue.
• Finally, maybe someone just wants to play a character because that's who they want to play. Ultimately it's a game and if you're playing with matchmaker groups you ultimately don't have any real responsibility to mess with your own enjoyment just because other people want you to. People who want to seriously work and improve towards greater success can (and should) find teams to play with so everyone has an actual reason to work out issues collectively. If you're playing with randos, you ultimately have already agreed to make the most out of whatever shit sandwich you're served in each given match.

Anyone who recognizes that this bad advice is bad is going to ignore it because, shock, it's bad advice. They're also going to ignore the next thing the same person says because they already lead off giving obviously bad advice. In fact, it's actually more important to ignore this if you're actually trying to improve since following bad advice will actively detract from your ability to develop your skills, whereas if you don't give a shit about getting better you might well just listen to people's dumb suggestions to get them to move on. Being unable to recognize this dynamic makes basically any observation about how people "react to criticism" untrustworthy since you aren't even starting from a point of effectively distinguishing good advice from bad.

 

[Alucrid]

Again. I think there's like 3 different things at least we could discuss.

1.) Should people playing an online competitive feel any obligation t get better at the expense of having fun?

2.) Is there a skill at offering criticism of fellow players online that yields better results?

3.) Are online carebear safespaces creating coddled environments where people don't feel compelled to get better because they receive nothing but disingenuous encouragement even when there are easy remedies to their poor play?

There could be a fruitful conversation about the first two. The last one is just bonkers and shows a complete disconnect from how almost all online communities operate.

Like, I'm lousy at Overwatch and I know it. It's why I've logged all of about 2 hours into it in the year that I've owned it. If I didn't have a newborn to take care of right now I'd log on and play some ranked matches and see what the response is. To say the least, I'm incredibly pessimistic that I'll get "good try guy, you be you!" encouragement when I contribute absolutely nothing to the cause.

it's going to be hard playing ranked if you actually have only played the game for two hours

Yes, because that person is a) being a jerk, but also (and much more importantly, by your stated standards) b) giving awful advice.

I mentioned this before and I'll reiterate here: telling someone to change characters is 100% useless advice. There's a few reasons (apologies to Gotchaye whose content I'm partially lifting here):

• In many cases, people playing hero or character based games are going to learn primarily how to play one particular character, with any cross-training happening later after they've already built up some skill. Regardless of ideal composition choices, someone switching from a character they know to one they've never touched before will play worse.
• Alternately, maybe it's a character someone's in the process of learning. Telling them to switch isn't going to help their actual goal and it also won't meaningfully improve their ability to get better faster.
• In most cases besides the most extreme, any composition issue is going to sit alongside other areas that could simply be improved by different play or strategy. Whoever you're telling to switch could probably also improve the team's results just by playing Genji differently or with more skill, and maybe more efficiently if there are obvious things they could change about their performance.
• In any composition issue, there's going to be multiple ways to change things to improve overall team setup, and people are (rightfully) going to resist being picked out to unilaterally change rather than a discussion happening about how everyone can contribute to addressing the issue.
• Finally, maybe someone just wants to play a character because that's who they want to play. Ultimately it's a game and if you're playing with matchmaker groups you ultimately don't have any real responsibility to mess with your own enjoyment just because other people want you to. People who want to seriously work and improve towards greater success can (and should) find teams to play with so everyone has an actual reason to work out issues collectively. If you're playing with randos, you ultimately have already agreed to make the most out of whatever shit sandwich you're served in each given match.

Anyone who recognizes that this bad advice is bad is going to ignore it because, shock, it's bad advice. They're also going to ignore the next thing the same person says because they already lead off giving obviously bad advice. In fact, it's actually more important to ignore this if you're actually trying to improve since following bad advice will actively detract from your ability to develop your skills, whereas if you don't give a shit about getting better you might well just listen to people's dumb suggestions to get them to move on. Being unable to recognize this dynamic makes basically any observation about how people "react to criticism" untrustworthy since you aren't even starting from a point of effectively distinguishing good advice from bad.

i'm not sure if you're differentiating between telling and asking but in general i've found people to be willing to switch characters in overwatch if asked. the enemy team has a phara? asking a dps to switch to hitscan usually works. the enemy team is running double hitscan? asking for a dva usually works.

 

[fuzzylogic]

OP, I think the people you describe do exist, but I don't think that small minority is a rising problem in our society. For it to be a problem, you have to assume people can't differentiate between the values of sources of praise. I don't equate a participation trophy from a beginner's instructional basketball camp to a trophy won in a basketball tournament. To assume overpraising is a problem you have to assume people are exceptionally stupid. Many people can often be very stupid, but I don't think most are that clueless.

Also, people are often irrational in the moment. They're more reasonable, and smarter when observing in retrospect. If your "good advice" is useful, they may indeed accept it later, even if they responded poorly in the moment. You'll never see that part though.

I personally improve most through practice, watching better players and reading/watching advice about what I'm playing. I can't think of an example off the cuff of a time when someone yelled useful advice at me in game. I'm good enough at games that I'm rarely the target of frustrated meany-heads' abuse, but when I am, it's almost always just abuse. My own self-critique, ongoing in my head, is much more conducive to adjusting my play.

1. That the person they're criticizing is even at fault. In something like a team FPS, individual players' info can be limited enough that they can't even necessarily draw correct conclusions about who's responsible for a loss just based on what they saw from their own perspective while playing. (This is why ongoing competitive teams in any game review tape to learn from mistakes instead of relying on in-the-moment observations.)

THIS! So few people seem to understand this concept. For example, in Overwatch, I've seen people become mad because we're losing, and the next person to make a mistake is harangued for the rest of the match because it's solely their fault, somehow.

Here's some other related concepts/readings for people interested in the general ideas in this thread.

1. Attribute Substitution
2. Dunning-Kruger Effect
3. The Moralization Gap, Another About Moralization Gap (as described by Steven Pinker) (supporting research)
   

   On page 538, Steven Pinker in his recent book Better Angels of Our Nature introduces Shergill’s study where this “Gap” was precisely studied and measured. Study participants were paired off with a gripping device. One was to start by gripping the other’s hand with a “light force for 3 seconds.” The other was to grip in return with “equal pressure and force.” Amazingly, only after 8 rounds of exchanging grips, the pressure of the grip had gone up some 8-10 times! Each round of gripping resulted on an average of 40% increase in the pressure. Each side expressed that they were gripping the other’s hand with the same pressure his hand was gripped with. There apparently was a huge “gap” between what one feels was done to him, and what one ought to do in return.

   The Moralization Gap consists of complementary bargaining tactics in the negotiation for recompense between a victim and a perpetrator. Like opposing counsel in a lawsuit over a tort, the social plaintiff will emphasize the deliberateness, or at least the depraved indifference, of the defendant’s action, together with the pain and suffering the plaintiff endures. The social defendant will emphasize the reasonableness or unavoidability of the action, and will minimize the plaintiff’s pain and suffering. The competing framings shape the negotiations over amends, and also play to the gallery in a competition for their sympathy and for a reputation as a responsible reciprocator.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

it's going to be hard playing ranked if you actually have only played the game for two hours

Add in the requisite time it takes to get to ranked. What does it take? Ten matches? Let's re-examine this in a week then!

 

[Phu]

Thematically, I agree with you - I've found (and felt it was much easier) that the burden of advice is actually on the receiver to actually see if what they are saying is at all helpful.

Let's take something simple:

"get the fuck off genji you arent doing anything"

now my post is suggesting (and responses to this thread) that many people will be like "guy is being toxic, ignore him"

where others - especially those focusing on self-improvement would say

"let me look, am I actually doing nothing - hmm, my damage seems low, and I don't seem to be taking down their healers/picking off low health heroes - he might have something here" or conversely - realize the guy actually doesn't know what he's talking about (this is usually rare)

and make the necessary changes.

to the poster before me - I see a far more of the former than the latter.

I'm saying its criticism, whether you want to take it as constructive or toxic is up to you...thats the point..

No, that's toxic, full stop.

 

[Alucrid]

Add in the requisite time it takes to get to ranked. What does it take? Ten matches? Let's re-examine this in a week then!

gotta be level 25 to start

 

[Budi]

I've played games in a competitive setting quite a bit before, and I've never seen anyone tell someone else that they're being "toxic," for giving constructive criticism on their gameplay.

Glad this got sorted out so quickly, there's a big difference in "kill yourself noob" "just uninstall" "you're shit" than "hey, you should play more carefully" "that's a bad pick against X hero" "you should build Agha instead".

 

[Haly]

Glad this got sorted out so quickly, there's a big difference in "kill yourself noob" "just uninstall" "you're shit" than "hey, you should play more carefully" "that's a bad pick against X hero" "you should build Agha instead".

But they're not mutually exclusive. For example "your AM build is dogshit, kill yourself" can be both 100% true and also toxic and unhelpful.

 

[Leafhopper]

gotta be level 25 to start

Problem with the level 25 requirement in Overwatch for ranked is that 25 isn't, like it's not like it's not time but, the person could have only played 1 character in that time or 1 role. In ranked they suddenly have to do something else and it's like "Oh".

I don't know how you really fix this because if you make your most competitive mode in your game have too many gates for the people that are here for the competitive stuff you end up alienating those people.

 

[Budi]

But they're not mutually exclusive. For example "your AM build is dogshit, kill yourself" can be both 100% true and also toxic and unhelpful.

Well that's kinda true. Saying that your AM build is dogshit isn't constructive as you say. Telling how/why it's wrong is constructive.

Also I fully acknowledge that racism, homophobia and misogyny are huge issues in gaming communities and outside of it. And this isn't ment to dismiss or distract from it. But I'm glad that this side of toxicity gets also discussed, I'd want to have devs/pubs working on this too.

 

[Haly]

Not toxic, helpful: "Stay behind the river and farm where I put wards"
Toxic, helpful: "Are you blind? Don't go into fog"
Not toxic, unhelpful: "Stop dying"
Toxic, unhelpful: "Leave if you're going to feed"

They're two separate axes.

 

[Frozenprince]

Are you actually trying to argue that "get the fuck off genji you aren't doing anything" is constructive criticism?

At this point I think he's angry he didn't (or did) get the response he wanted and is now just trying to attack everybody.

 

[Alucrid]

Not toxic, helpful: "Stay behind the river and farm where I put wards"
Toxic, helpful: "Are you blind? Don't go into fog"
Not toxic, unhelpful: "Stop dying"
Toxic, unhelpful: "Leave if you're going to feed"

They're two separate axes.

do i want to win or do i want to feel smug and superior. hmm

 

[Leafhopper]

Not toxic, helpful: "Stay behind the river and farm where I put wards"
Toxic, helpful: "Are you blind? Don't go into fog"
Not toxic, unhelpful: "Stop dying"
Toxic, unhelpful: "Leave if you're going to feed"

They're two separate axes.

This is a good summary.

 

[charlequin]

i'm not sure if you're differentiating between telling and asking but in general i've found people to be willing to switch characters in overwatch if asked.

Yeah, to be absolutely clear: I'm definitely not saying it's never a good idea to switch characters. Rather, it's almost always bad advice since it's not generalizable and ignores any other info that contribute to other approaches to the problem.

In general how people present this stuff is really the core issue, because presentation has a massive impact on the actual reactions these types of comments get. If you're really looking to offer someone assistance, including it in an actual conversation where you acknowledge what they're doing right is far more likely to be productive than just telling people to change what they're doing; if you're trying to solve a problem in the team, talking about the actual issue and then either asking people to do something differently or offering a set of possibilities for people to choose from is going to inspire people to volunteer to help rather than feel like they're being shat on. In both cases, the way the initial communication is made makes such a huge difference that it's much more worthwhile to talk about that than some abstract concept of whether people "can take critcism" or whatever.

I'll note too that even in one sentence here, you managed to actually indicate a gameplay reason for the switch you're talking about, which the "advice" I was responding to there failed to do. Being able to contextualize a suggestion as addressing a specific identified problem also does a ton.

 

[rocK`]

Not toxic, helpful: "Stay behind the river and farm where I put wards"
Toxic, helpful: "Are you blind? Don't go into fog"
Not toxic, unhelpful: "Stop dying"
Toxic, unhelpful: "Leave if you're going to feed"

They're two separate axes.

This is really good - I think breaking it down to two axes (maybe there's more in terms of how to convey) works.

Sorry i've been in and out - playing FFXIV now, a good example of criticism being needed in order to progress (when doing raids/trials, etc.)

 

[Mugenjin]

Thematically, I agree with you - I've found (and felt it was much easier) that the burden of advice is actually on the receiver to actually see if what they are saying is at all helpful.

Let's take something simple:

"get the fuck off genji you arent doing anything"

now my post is suggesting (and responses to this thread) that many people will be like "guy is being toxic, ignore him"

where others - especially those focusing on self-improvement would say

"let me look, am I actually doing nothing - hmm, my damage seems low, and I don't seem to be taking down their healers/picking off low health heroes - he might have something here" or conversely - realize the guy actually doesn't know what he's talking about (this is usually rare)

and make the necessary changes.

to the poster before me - I see a far more of the former than the latter.

Do you seriously think that "get the fuck off genji you arent doing anything" is constructive criticism and should not be considered toxic?

 

[Weltall Zero]

This is a good summary.

Agreed, I liked it a lot. It also bears pointing out that the toxic axis has an effect on the ultimate, effective helpfulness of the message, simply because people are more likely to disregard advice if it's framed in a rude or insulting way, thus rendering it unhelpful no matter what the content is.

One can think of the "toxic" axis as the carrier and the "helpful" axis as the payload. Both need to be appropriate for a message to have a net effect.

 

[rocK`]

Do you seriously think that "get the fuck off genji you arent doing anything" is constructive criticism and should not be considered toxic?

No. That's not at all what I am suggesting.

If you read the thread - I am simply saying it's what you do with that information and looking critically on people who both deliver the message and the receiver - and popping whether the receiver should be more amendable - especially if they are interested in personal improvement.

 

[Mechazawa]

I can't tell if this thread is OP ginning up a strawman for a situation that doesn't really exist or if this thread is about OP being mad he can't be a dickhead with his shitty "advice" and not have it be ignored.

That's just how good he's been at defending his argument, whatever it is, in this thread I guess.

 

[Frozenprince]

"Hey X cam you go and do Y I think it'd help us win" is certainly a valid critique.

However "No, I feel my contribution doing Z as I am now is just as valuable" is equally valid.

You can give any sort of feedback you like, I am nor is anybody obligated to think on said feedback.

It's a video game. Something I do in my leisure time. And as someone who was a competitive athlete for most of my life, I can safely say that no coach or trainer speaks or gives feedback like 99% of people over team speak do.

 

[Budi]

I can't tell if this thread is OP ginning up a strawman for a situation that doesn't really exist or if this thread is about OP being mad he can't be a dickhead with his shitty "advice" and not have it be ignored.

That's just how good he's been at defending his argument, whatever it is, in this thread I guess.

I mean with my 3000 hours of Dota 2 I used to play, I think it happened once that actual helpful advice framed in a polite way got actually a toxic response "Fuck you I do what I want". Many times the advice probably got ignored, but toxicity didn't help even once.

"Hey X cam you go and do Y I think it'd help us win" is certainly a valid critique.

However "No, I feel my contribution doing Z as I am now is just as valuable" is equally valid.

You can give any sort of feedback you like, I am nor is anybody obligated to think on said feedback.

It's a video game. Something I do in my leisure time. And as someone who was a competitive athlete for most of my life, I can safely say that no coach or trainer speaks or gives feedback like 99% of people over team speak do.

You haven't seen some of the Finnish hockey coaches =D Raimo Summanen tried to pick up an actual fight with Jaromir Jagr, even raised his fists already.

We did have a good result as a team, but it was so difficult for every player psychologically to work with this coach. He’s good as a coach, he has a good system. But if you make a mistake, or not even, if you simply lose a game what happens after that with this coach I have no words to explain. He is a good coach, but not a good person. During the regular season he never yelled at me or told me something bad. But I saw it happening to other guys. And I asked them to tolerate it because we were showing good results. But it was also tough to see how he psychologically tried to kill his players. And it was my big mistake that I asked the guys to tolerate that. I should have spoken to the coach earlier to tell him he simply cannot act like that. And I think the guys were waiting for me to tell that to the coach. And I didn’t.

 

[Humdinger]

How can you be so incredibly hypocritical that you are advocating that everyone in the world listen to criticism from everyone else, yet you won't even entertain the notion that the criticism of pretty much everyone else in the thread including like four mods has a modicum of merit? How does a mind even work to wrap itself around such incongruity? This is so off the charts in terms of cognitive dissonance that it would need the formation of an entirely new discipline to be properly studied.

You guys are dealing with a narcissist. That's pretty much characteristic -- it's always the other guy's fault, the other person is too sensitive, can't handle the truth, I'm blameless, I have no shortcomings, I'm just being truthful, etc. There's a basic inability to comprehend how their "helpful advice" might be perceived as condescending or intrusive by others. They have trouble seeing things from any perspective other than their own.

Anyhow, good luck.

 

[Budi]

You guys are dealing with a narcissist. That's pretty much characteristic -- it's always the other guy's fault, the other person is too sensitive, can't handle the truth, I'm blameless, I have no shortcomings, I'm just being truthful, etc. There's a basic inability to comprehend how their "helpful advice" might be perceived as condescending or intrusive by others. They have trouble seeing things from any perspective other than their own.

Anyhow, good luck.

It's one of the things I constantly see in GAF and absolutely hate "I'd be ranked number one if it wasn't for the shitty team mates!" Funny thing is, that some of those team mates are probably saying the same thing. In a team based game, if you put the blame on the team without considering what you could have improved. You probably aren't a good team player and contributed greatly to the loss yourself.

 

[iRAWRasaurus]

I've played games in a competitive setting quite a bit before, and I've never seen anyone tell someone else that they're being "toxic," for giving constructive criticism on their gameplay.

This. At the same time, I mainly play on consoles for my fps and PUBG. I am assuming this happens more in games like overwatch, csgo, lol and dota?

 

[Toxi]

Thematically, I agree with you - I've found (and felt it was much easier) that the burden of advice is actually on the receiver to actually see if what they are saying is at all helpful.

Let's take something simple:

"get the fuck off genji you arent doing anything"

now my post is suggesting (and responses to this thread) that many people will be like "guy is being toxic, ignore him"

where others - especially those focusing on self-improvement would say

"let me look, am I actually doing nothing - hmm, my damage seems low, and I don't seem to be taking down their healers/picking off low health heroes - he might have something here" or conversely - realize the guy actually doesn't know what he's talking about (this is usually rare)

and make the necessary changes.

to the poster before me - I see a far more of the former than the latter.

This doesn't sound like constructive criticism. If I like Genji and I have no idea what character would be more helpful, why should I switch? How do you even know I'm the problem here?

It sounds like you're being rude and unhelpful and mistaking that for something more meaningful. What should I switch to? Why should I switch to that?

 

[rocK`]

This doesn't sound like constructive criticism. If I like Genji and I have no idea what character would be more helpful, why should I switch? How do you even know I'm the problem here?

It sounds like you're being rude and unhelpful and mistaking that for something more meaningful.

Weird you picked that one to quote and not follow the subesequent back and forth. The point wasn't that *I* said that, or even think it's OK. the point is what do WE do when someone says that.

I was trying to show a world where you could glean as much learning as possible.

 

[Hopeford]

Having now read the entire thread...frankly, I disagree with the entire premise.

Quite frankly, hiding behind "I have a point!" when you are being socially inept at best, or a bully at worst is the real problem. If someone is behaving in a way that would make you normally not engage them in person, there is no reason to pay them any mind online. I participate in a competitive sport in real life - and if someone gave me advice dressed in insults, the staff, ref or coach would tell him off and everyone would ignore him because sports skills don't compensate for social skills. I see literally zero reason for this to be different in video games.

In addition, even if this does make someone a worse player in the long run...I think that's fine. If you become a worse player, but have to deal with less assholes, that's the better scenario.

 

[Toxi]

Weird you picked that one to quote and not follow the subesequent back and forth. The point wasn't that *I* said that, or even think it's OK. the point is what do WE do when someone says that.

I was trying to show a world where you could glean as much learning as possible.

None of that thinking process you described is linked to the actual "advice" though. If I can analyze my damage and tell it's low and decide to try another character, it's because of what I brought to the table. Not the suggestions of a cretin.

If you want to provide advice, provide advice. Don't act like an asshole and hope the other person does all the intellectual legwork for you. All it does is make people not like you.

 

[Triteon]

If you want to set the terms on how competitive you play either:

1, stick to one on one titles, then its directly up to you.

2, form a team of consistent players/clan that is equally motivated and serious as you. This is the only time its reasonable to criticize someone else's gameplay and even then I'd try to make it constructive.

3, get so good you can carry a poor team, then people might just ask for you opinion on how yo play. Its happened to me before ands I've asked for tips before.

You'll notice that none of those things involves telling people who didn't already ask what to do because in all other situations you are a fucking rando trying to get your jollies playing manager/boss*. Don't tell people what to do, especially when people are trying to enjoy their leisure time.

People generally don't play games to follow orders and what gives you the right* to tell anyone else how to play?

*In games where there is a teamleader/manager position who can direct troop movement please disregard

 

[akira28]

3.) Are online carebear safespaces creating coddled environments where people don't feel compelled to get better because they receive nothing but disingenuous encouragement even when there are easy remedies to their poor play?
.

what even is this last one? its bad framing and the OP totally went some place different and new with this toxic personality view.

TIL the toxic personalities are the bad players keeping the rest of the team from winning, not the angry hardcores screaming f-bombs and n-bombs into their headsets because life is an unhappy place.

 

[Weltall Zero]

If you read the thread -

A polite suggestion (one of those you're so fond of): stop telling everyone they're not reading the thread. It's beyond rude and condescending, a cheap try to undermine their opinion as "uninformed", when the truth is they simply disagree with you, your message, or how you're putting it into words.

Weird you picked that one to quote and not follow the subesequent back and forth. The point wasn't that *I* said that, or even think it's OK. the point is what do WE do when someone says that.

I was trying to show a world where you could glean as much learning as possible.

Honest question. What have you learned from this thread?

You guys are dealing with a narcissist. That's pretty much characteristic -- it's always the other guy's fault, the other person is too sensitive, can't handle the truth, I'm blameless, I have no shortcomings, I'm just being truthful, etc. There's a basic inability to comprehend how their "helpful advice" might be perceived as condescending or intrusive by others. They have trouble seeing things from any perspective other than their own.

Anyhow, good luck.

I can't tell if this thread is OP ginning up a strawman for a situation that doesn't really exist or if this thread is about OP being mad he can't be a dickhead with his shitty "advice" and not have it be ignored.

That's just how good he's been at defending his argument, whatever it is, in this thread I guess.

Pretty much. It's usually a good idea to give people the benefit of the doubt but I think the OP's behaviour and complete incapacity to apply the very humbleness and reflection he's asking of others has been made manifest beyond any shadow of doubt. Nothing left to do but Ignore and move on.

 

[Absoludacrous]

The current meta of thread creating is equally parts toxic and amazing

 

[Phu]

No. That's not at all what I am suggesting.

If you read the thread - I am simply saying it's what you do with that information and looking critically on people who both deliver the message and the receiver - and popping whether the receiver should be more amendable - especially if they are interested in personal improvement.

That's literally the opposite of how communication works.

 

[rocK`]

A polite suggestion (one of those you're so fond of): stop telling everyone they're not reading the thread. It's beyond rude and condescending, a cheap try to undermine their opinion as "uninformed", when the truth is they simply disagree with you, your message, or how you're putting it into words.



Honest question. What have you learned from this thread?





Pretty much. It's usually a good idea to give people the benefit of the doubt but I think the OP's behaviour and complete incapacity to apply the very humbleness and reflection he's asking of others has been made manifest beyond any shadow of doubt. Nothing left to do but Ignore and move on.

Oh dear, asking people if they read the thread is apparently condescending and undermining - allow me to do what others have done to me in this thread - grow a fucking pair if you really feel that way.

That's a tough sell.

What did I learn? well for one, I don't think I spent enough time crystallizing my initial thoughts as it was obviously confusing to most people (and I see now how it was misconstrued, I don't often type posts of this nature).

Second, I learned that a lot more people care about style/tone than they do substance, which is kind of weird and different from how I grew up - especially so for military folk, etc. I think I might be in the minority/disconnected from most by having this opinion.

Third, I thought the two axis + charlequin's post summed up what I wanted to get out well - so that was helpful.

 

[Tain]

Oh dear, asking people if they read the thread is apparently condescending and undermining - allow me to do what others have done to me in this thread - grow a fucking pair if you really feel that way.

edit: i'll try to be a little more civil and just say that you're avoiding his point (probably intentionally)

 

[Snowybreak]

Grow a pair? Really? You're going to respond to criticism by insulting the other party?

 

[Messofanego]

Oh dear, asking people if they read the thread is apparently condescending and undermining - allow me to do what others have done to me in this thread - grow a fucking pair if you really feel that way.

There's that so called constructive criticism!

 

[rocK`]

Weird, where were you guys when he was saying equally, if not even more harsh personal attacks on me?

Oh, that's right.

Don't particularly care as he had a reasonable point at the end of the day, but still - it's weird how selective gaf white knighting is.

 

[Snowybreak]

Weird, where were you guys when he was saying equally, if not even more harsh personal attacks on me?

Oh, that's right.

Sorry, I was reading all your bullshit in this short-ass fucking thread.

You are pulling shit from your ass to devalue the positions taken up against you. You have said repeatedly that your critics have "not read the thread" when it is obvious that they have.

 

[Tain]

this thread 100% happened because the OP threw homophobic slurs at random teammates in overwatch

 

[rocK`]

Sorry, I was reading all your bullshit in this short-ass fucking thread.

You are pulling shit from your ass to devalue the positions taken up against you. You have said repeatedly that your critics have "not read the thread" when it is obvious that they have.

How obvious when they literally miss word for word admissions or statements contrary to the inane bullshit they are spouting in the first place?

Take for example the post that said "OP all you do is cherry pick your replies to people who agree with you"

Oh yeah, like this one.