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Dark Souls 2 Lighting changes/Downgrade

soontroll

Banned
So PS3 version doesn't look like this?
Haven't seen it myself, but someone said that it was all flat grey, and you could turn some lights on or something that made everything flat red like a red light district.

Here:
Yes, definitely, unless something changed in the day 1 patch.

That area and the painting hallway shown in the gameplay reveal have suffered the most from what I've seen. The painting hallway was borderline unrecognizable.

DarkSoulsII-13-e1366104595278.jpg


This place is all grey now until you turn on the lights and it looks like a red light district, a grey room with a red tint overlayed on top. No contrast, no atmosphere.

http://neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=103716410&postcount=283
 

Zomba13

Member
Haven't seen it myself, but someone said that it was all flat grey, and you could turn some lights on or something that made everything flat red like a red light district.

Damn =/ Super super disappointing. And if they didn't decide to just keep this stuff in the PC version then it sucks. Not something that can be fixed by a modder either.
 

Zomba13

Member
So they lied to the media and public by passing off PC footage as console footage? Is this the gist of it?

Nah, they had it running on actual PS3s. They showed off a completely different version with assets and lighting that was removed/not even implemented in the final retail product. The PC version probably doesn't even have the additional lighting and effects from the demo version.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
These downgrades are disappointing, but I never let graphical issues get in the way of my enjoyment so I doubt I will start now. If I could handle 12FPS Blighttown, I can handle this. ;) That said I'll double-dip on a PC version at some point for sure.
Def interesting to note. Like you said though, they are in the spotlight now. Where things like these matter to the masses. NeoGAF
Obligatory ;)
 

sublimit

Banned
Has anyone compared the credits of DS2 with the original game?Was this developed by the exact same team that did DS (excluding the director change)?
 

Owzers

Member
i have a perfectly good ps4 on my dresser top and i'll be playing a downgraded dark souls 2 in the next few days..it just doesn't feel right.
 
Nah, they had it running on actual PS3s. They showed off a completely different version with assets and lighting that was removed/not even implemented in the final retail product. The PC version probably doesn't even have the additional lighting and effects from the demo version.

Then why remove all of these effects? That's what I'm having a hard time trying to figure out. I don't remember any severe performance or frame rate issues in those (supposed) PS3 demos. If the engine and system had no problems doing those things at respectable frame rates, why dump it all?
 

Zomba13

Member
Look at the amazing specular highlighting on the floor in that first image! /weeps

It's be a crime if we don't get those effects on the PC version. A goddamn crime. AND the 6 week wait will be inexcusable. At least if they keep this stuff for the PC (and possible 'next' gen versions) then it'd be worth the wait.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Nope, because no one can say that those were actually real PC footages or simply an ad hoc created demo.
I really don't think we've seen ANYTHING of the PC version yet.

It's be a crime if we don't get those effects on the PC version. A goddamn crime. AND the 6 week wait will be inexcusable. At least if they keep this stuff for the PC (and possible 'next' gen versions) then it'd be worth the wait.
Again, we know for a fact that it was possible on older consoles as many of us have played it looking like that.

It's for that reason which I believe the PC version will look like the retail console release.
 

Grief.exe

Member
It's be a crime if we don't get those effects on the PC version. A goddamn crime. AND the 6 week wait will be inexcusable. At least if they keep this stuff for the PC (and possible 'next' gen versions) then it'd be worth the wait.

Seems plausible, above all else Bandai wants double dips.

If the PC version contains all of those effects and was released at the same time, many people would buy the PC version alone. Suits at Bandai probably have pirating concerns as well if one version is that much better than the others.

Letting the console versions release, than showing off the superior PC footage would maximize their profit potential.
 
Then why remove all of these effects? That's what I'm having a hard time trying to figure out. I don't remember any severe performance or frame rate issues in those (supposed) PS3 demos. If the engine and system had no problems doing those things at respectable frame rates, why dump it all?

Read my post above http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=103835418&postcount=1370

Im guessing this area is a test area that was worked on along side the main game and the changes never made it back to the retail version.

For the life of me, I cant find the article, but same thing happened with Painted World In Dark Souls 1, they added it last minute, it was the first area they created and it was only to play around with new features of the engine. Thats why its also completely disconnected from the main world.
 
I wish more companies did what Eidos did with Deus Ex : Human Revolution. Release the game on pc being the superior version from the start, then when a new "Ultimate" edition is made, with enhanced graphics, more content, etc, you can upgrade for $5. If FROM is thinking on releasing DS2 for PS4 and Xbone, they should go that route. Even better, just release a patch on the pc version that has all the features for free. The amount of goodwill they would get would guarantee that every pc game they release is a success after that.
 

todahawk

Member

you have to be kidding me... seriously, what the fuck happened? This was to be my last PS3 game and I really, really couldn't wait to play. Now... I don't know. Doesn't even seem like the same game, the new gifs have a completely different feel.

PREPARE TO BE DISAPPOINTED.
 
Then why remove all of these effects? That's what I'm having a hard time trying to figure out. I don't remember any severe performance or frame rate issues in those (supposed) PS3 demos. If the engine and system had no problems doing those things at respectable frame rates, why dump it all?

We don't know yet. Some who have the final game have noticed that the game drops in framerate if you turn on torches sometimes, so the best estimate we have right now is that From couldn't optimize their lighting engine enough and some areas must've had unplayable framerates.

We can at best theorize that something must've gone severely wrong with the lighting engine, because they wouldn't stop talking about it in early demos and now it's completely nerfed with no explanation.
 

This is so strange. The torch lights are missing and the lightening has been toned down, but why? I'm pretty sure they're using deferred shading, so a couple of torches shouldn't be killing performance. And why get rid of the different intensities of lightening?
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
The one reason I feel this is odd is because when FROM originally unveiled Dark Souls 2 to Edge, one of the main points they promoted was how they completely redid the lighting engine. That was supposed to be the main technical advancement here, and it seems to have been discarded.

I must say, as a longtime fan of FROM Software's games (going back to King's Field on the PSX), I find it amusing to read this thread simply because I don't believe they've EVER experienced this kind of scrutiny before. Until this series came along they were always a very offbeat, niche kind of studio (still are, I suppose).

Many of their games have long since suffered from performance issues.

Heck, just this generation we had Armored Core 4 targeting 60 fps (and failing) only to receive a sequel with a significantly LOWER framerate across the board.

Evergrace? Not a popular title but the original was 60 fps. The sequel? Barely 30 fps with lots of tearing despite not looking much better.

King's Field IV? Game ran at 60 fps, but the character movement was sampled at 30 so you'd have this weird juxtaposition of 60 fps camera rotation and 30 fps character movement that never looked right.

Their PSX games were not even remotely impressive.

So, with Dark Souls, they finally reached a mass audience and experienced a huge success. For the first time they have a huge number of people watching closely.

Still sucks, though.

This too. This is why I'm surprised at people saying Dark Souls 2 screenshots look like crap. From Software has never been a technically proficient developer.
 
This is so strange. The torch lights are missing and the lightening has been toned down, but why? I'm pretty sure they're using deferred shading, so a couple of torches shouldn't be killing performance. And why get rid of the different intensities of lightening?

DEMO
iLZ1kstU2es6F.gif


RETAIL
ibkZtvMaMXLJHR.gif


Why remove the cobweb texture inside the staircase, or remove geometry of the cement blocks around the doorway.

Also the textures are completely different on the walls, the Retail version has worse textures in my opinion.

The Demo build just looks like it was handled by a different team, I dont understand it.
 

Skinpop

Member
Should have been a bit more specific.

IE Specular Highlights, texture resolution, normal maps, etc.

It has specular highlights, the term you're looking for is cubemap reflections and maybe fresnel reflections. In some screenshots it's clear there still are cubemap reflections in the game but they look way toned down and a bit matte.

I'm really interested in hearing FS side of this debacle.
 

Branduil

Member
Also notice how in the demo the lightning can come from multiple directions while in the retail release it seems fixed to one spot.
 

Garcia

Member
Then why remove all of these effects? That's what I'm having a hard time trying to figure out. I don't remember any severe performance or frame rate issues in those (supposed) PS3 demos. If the engine and system had no problems doing those things at respectable frame rates, why dump it all?

Chances are that the demo is a completely separate project from the final build, hence why it was actually fully playable on PS3 consoles a couple of months ago.

This is, again, pure speculation, but the trail slowly leads to that.
 
Dark souls 2...not only do you have to figure out how to get past the enemies of the game, you have to figure out how to get past the graphics.

Genius.
 
What im guessing is that at some point, they extracted a "slice" of the game to a different build.

Then a team at FROM worked on that Demo build while the rest kept working on the main game, at this point, both versions were missing the stuff missing from the retail version.

The team working on the Demo build, added tons of details, and activated the lightning/shadowing stuff from their new engine, made it stable and finalized worked on it to be showed to the press.

But that stuff never made it back to the Retail "branch" if you will, for some or other reason, maybe that team came back to optimize code, or finish other areas, etc.

Its the only reason that makes sense to me, because what artist would knowingly take out some of the stuff the GIFs in the previous pages show, stuff like the water splash of the boss when he jumps, how expensive can that be?

Also worthy to note that they made this in the past, The Painted World of Ariamis in Dark Souls 1 has tons of minute details that arent so prevalent in the rest of the game, because that was the first area they made, so it was kind of a tech demo/playing ground for testing gameplay and the engine.

This is too logical to be wrong :(

If true, it means the PC version looks exactly the same as the console version :(
 
DEMO
iLZ1kstU2es6F.gif


RETAIL
ibkZtvMaMXLJHR.gif


Why remove the cobweb texture inside the staircase, or remove geometry of the cement blocks around the doorway.

Also the textures are completely different on the walls, the Retail version has worse textures in my opinion.

The Demo build just looks like it was handled by a different team, I dont understand it.

There's nothing wrong with the retail textures. For some reason people always think "super shiny" textures are automatically better. It's just a different look. Same thing with lighting in general. People see game play videos during day time and think it looks like shit. Show them the same game at night, when it's raining and it suddenly looks amazing. I think the retail version looks more appropriate. The demo version looks like it takes place in a sewer or the walls are made out of some kind of crystalline rock. Retail looks more like what you'd see in a real run down basement type area.
 
DEMO
iLZ1kstU2es6F.gif


RETAIL
ibkZtvMaMXLJHR.gif


Why remove the cobweb texture inside the staircase, or remove geometry of the cement blocks around the doorway.

Also the textures are completely different on the walls, the Retail version has worse textures in my opinion.

The Demo build just looks like it was handled by a different team, I dont understand it.

Just to be clear, are we sure that these two gifs are of the exact same area? It looks like an entirely different game.
 

Paracelsus

Member
They are manipulating you, I have no doubt in my mind it's like that.

There's people who are double-dipping on the console version because they can't wait one (1) month for the PC version.

Want those people to triple-dip? Strip the game down to the bare bones, sell it for what it is and watch the fandom buy the real, complete, technologically accurate version for PC, PS4 and XBOX One six months to a year later.
 
There's nothing wrong with the retail textures. For some reason people always think "super shiny" textures are automatically better. It's just a different look. Same thing with lighting in general. People see game play videos during day time and think it looks like shit. Show them the same game at night, when it's raining and it suddenly looks amazing. I think the retail version looks more appropriate. The demo version looks like it takes place in a sewer or the walls are made out of some kind of crystalline rock. Retail looks more like what you'd see in a real run down basement type area.

I agree with you that the walls dont need that "shinnyness", but, looking at the texture without them, the retail is still a downgrade, look at the textures around the door and behind the torch, they look way better in the Demo in my honest opinion.
 

.GqueB.

Banned
Can see why people would be upset by this but I can't say I care all that much. I never looked at the original footage and said "wow amazing!" since it's always looked passable. It's gone from passable to less than passable but it looked like poop either way.

But yea, quite the downgrade.
 

Gbraga

Member
What bugs me is that it's not even that it's inferior, but completely different.

I mean, I do prefer the demo version of this gif, of course, but it doesn't look like a downgrade, it looks like they just made it all over again, only worse.

Missing lighting can be easily explained as a downgrade, but why would they change the door layout?

It's weird. I'm curious to see what the devs have to say about this.
 

Apologies for quoting these gifs again but I couldn't silence my disappointment.

Damn. That is a huge fucking difference. Like an order of magnitude, generational gap level of difference.

The character in the retail gif almost looks as though he's rushing through the area out of embarrassment.
 

Vesper73

Member
This fiasco is one of the main reasons I am excited about the next generation of consoles.

PC versions have been fucked for years (see Oblivion), and now there is light at the end of the tunnel.

I mean, how much longer will companies be making PS3/360 versions of these new titles?
 

Grief.exe

Member
Apologies for quoting these gifs again but I couldn't silence my disappointment.

Damn. That is a huge fucking difference. Like an order of magnitude, generational gap level of difference.

The character in the retail gif almost looks as though he's rushing through the area out of embarrassment.

Its hard for me to believe that they were actually demoing this game on PS3. When people say a generational gap difference, then that would lend credence to the PC version being shown in the past.

This fiasco is one of the main reasons I am excited about the next generation of consoles.

PC versions have been fucked for years (see Oblivion), and now there is light at the end of the tunnel.

I mean, how much longer will companies be making PS3/360 versions of these new titles?

Light is pretty quickly fading though.

PS4/XBO weren't exactly designed for power, as mid-range GPUs are already way past their potential. Let's just hope this generation wraps up much more quickly than the last.
 

Piano

Banned
I'm hoping someone can mod the PC version to make the dark areas dark again...

Other than that I can deal with the changes. But the darkness seemed like such a cool mechanic and it's a shame that they (seemingly) lightened up all of the dark areas.
 

JoeFenix

Member
I see that footage of the mirror knight hallway/fight is starting to surface, thanks to people who took the time to make the comparisons. It was hard to put into words just how bad the downgrade was without being able to back it up with pictures and gifs.

The Painting Hallway and Mansion area took an even more dramatic hit in my opinion. I'm sure footage will show up sooner or later.

I'd like to take the time to point out to people just how toxic the attitude can get around hyped games pre-release. When I was watching one of first streams that popped up last week I immediately noticed that something was wrong with the visuals. Environments were bland and lighting in general seemed off, I made mention of it in the stream chat and got absolutely lynched by the mob there.

I don't think I've ever had that many insults thrown at me in that short a period of time before. Every name in the book, not a real fan, nitpicker, worthless piece of shit... whatever. Didn't really bother me too much because I knew it wasn't necessarily directed at me as a person but god damn. People really need to take a step back in general when this sort of thing happens.

The community around certain games can really act like a bunch of savage zealots at times. The mentality resembles that of cult worshipers, masters of mental gymnastics and denial. Now I'm not saying everyone should be bothered by these changes at all, there's absolutely nothing wrong with being completely unaffected by any of this. But the people trying to shame others for caring about this stuff should really take a step back and look at the way they're acting. It's sad.

This forum is certainly a hell of a lot better than places like gamefaqs or stream chats but even with strict moderation there was still alot of really shitty drive by posts that just served no purpose whatsoever. If you're a fan of the series there is NOTHING wrong with pointing out problems with the final product. In fact, I would argue that it's healthy in the long run. Keeps everyone honest.
 
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