No, otherwise it wouldn't be in the game.
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Dark Souls II - First review
- Thread starter Sn4ke_911
- Start date
No, otherwise it wouldn't be in the game.
Garcia
Member
Beautiful.
First off, as far as I'm concerned, the only "wrong way" to play Dark Souls is to use out of game cheat engines or save editors, and even, do whatever you like when playing PvE. Even us die hards shake our heads when we see people saying stuff like "playing offline is cheating!"
That said, don't you see how you raise people's ire by saying "backwards game mechanics"? The ways in which Dark Souls bucks the trends of mainstream gaming are a very large part of it's appeal.
Yes, people who say people are "playing wrong" should chill, but similarly, people who don't have hundreds of hours logged shouldn't demand changes to a beloved game just because they don't like them; not every game has to appeal to every person, and that's fine. Dark Souls is plenty popular already, and will keep on getting more popular without making radical changes.
Making the basic game mechanics easier to understand is the number 1 thing they should address, and apparently have.
As clever as it is, you guys do know that this doesn't change the argument, right? Timing the parry at least still does require some amount of skill. And this was not what I was talking about.
Evolved1
make sure the pudding isn't too soggy but that just ruins everything
Why, then, should they even address this?
BlitzEngineer
Member
You're talking about an extreme that does not exist and has no chance of existing. Nobody here is arguing that they should take all of the challenge out of the game. Simply that streamlining things like switching builds with an endgame item or being able to get back to a shop after running out of antidotes or something is an option and that it's okay for it to exist.
I'm just having an issue with believing your opinion that quality of life changes that reduce the tedium of the game are somehow going to ruin you're experience.
I was talking about "it's optional, you don't have to use it" as the all-answer to every concern.
Believe it or not. If an RPG-like game offers respeccing etc., I lose interest.
Moral Panic
Member
There have only been 2 'Souls' games. DeS had bonfire warping from the beginning. DaS did not. DaS had an 'open world', DeS had the nexus. DeS had item burden, DaS did not. Crystal lizards were essential to maxing weapons in DeS, in DaS they aren't. In fact in DaS (after patch), you can buy twinkling Titanite and get top level gear without searching for any rare slabs. It's a bit early to be talking about it like it is some long running franchise with exact expectations of how it should be. The same way that there was "casualisation" (aka usability improvements), from DeS to DaS, there are from DaS to DaS2. It's OK to disagree with anything FROM does, but to act as if they are somehow betraying the identity of the Souls series, or are giving into demands of people who don't like Souls is inane and severely premature.
Deified Data
Banned
Don't you see how silly it is what you just wrote? The whole point of respec'ing is to give players the opportunity to change and experiment with their builds. If anything, it will lead to more interesting matches.
Also Giant Dads with Zweis are usually terrible, terrible players. That setup is just asking to be roll bs'd. Thankfully, with the new respec option, they will be able to learn the error of their way and change their build to something that actually has PVP potential
Nah, I'm pretty confident in what I said. You have your ideal and I have mine.
I hate a lot of things about this thread. The subject simply can't be discussed civilly.
No.I decide whether I'm in the mood for invasions or not. In DS1 FROM gave me the choice. Now I have to do that myself.
decoyplatypus
Member
It seems to me that some of the pessimism over respec and early bonfire warping is (in addition to being premature when we don't know how far these mechanics will influence the general game design) grounded in analogies to games that didn't rely on their "hardcore" reputations as a marketing tool. A series like Etrian Odyssey may not be the right analogy either, as it seems content to remain niche, but I think (I can't be sure without having played the most recent titles) it suggests that an RPG can have respec without going casual. The designers of DkS2 seem determined to preserve the appeal of the series (they have specifically mentioned challenge, non-linear exploration, and non-narrative storytelling) while adding a few features they believe will streamline access to the core experience. Thus, early warping to remove some repetition and respec so players get a rare opportunity to adjust their build without starting a new file. Now, I happen to agree with many here that the "legwork" involved in backtracking is part of the core experience and shouldn't be streamlined away. After all, the horror of being cursed in the depths is not just that you've lost part of your HP, but that you have to climb back up to undead chapel to get it back (although that element could be replicated by having curse status prohibit warping as well). I also agree that character permanence is a part of the core experience, but we just don't know how much it has been compromised by what appears to be a severely limited respec mechanic. Again, it's not that anyone is wrong to be concerned (I am pessimistic too!), but panicking about ambiguous changes and lashing out at anyone who expresses optimism just makes for a lot of unpleasantness. There will be plenty of time to talk about the folly of early warping and respec when we've all played the game and know how those mechanics work.
Because making the game as it is easier to understand doesn't change what the game is. People who want to figure out the basics on their own can still go play Dark Souls or Demon's Souls first. Easing people into Dark Souls 2 by optionally explaining the stuff that experienced players already know won't change the experience of experienced players.
And every response from people who've played the first 3 hours says they've managed to do precisely this brilliantly.
I play the game online and other people having the option to respec makes the game less fun for me. Even my own respec option makes the game less fun for me. I like the flow of the game where I make decisions and I live with them. I like it when the people I play with did the same. I like the persistent characters. It is one of my favorite features of the game, that something like that got the big(ger) budget treatment.
How is it people here see fit to condescend to this idea as "elitist" and "don't use it, duh" and "don't tell me how to play my game". There is some kind of coordinated shaming to say both "you guys are the worst players lololol" and "you are elitist" on the same page. Who is elitist??
The game had this feature, now it has changed and I don't like it. No one here has presented a satisfactory justification for the change. I will be playing the game anyway and it won't ruin it, but I have the strong expectation that it will be worse for it. I expect that I will be replaying the game less because of this and not more. Furthermore I do see it as a compromise of the vision of the game as an oppressive horror show.
How is it people here see fit to condescend to this idea as "elitist" and "don't use it, duh" and "don't tell me how to play my game". There is some kind of coordinated shaming to say both "you guys are the worst players lololol" and "you are elitist" on the same page. Who is elitist??
The game had this feature, now it has changed and I don't like it. No one here has presented a satisfactory justification for the change. I will be playing the game anyway and it won't ruin it, but I have the strong expectation that it will be worse for it. I expect that I will be replaying the game less because of this and not more. Furthermore I do see it as a compromise of the vision of the game as an oppressive horror show.
Garcia
Member
Ironically, From decided to listen to us rather than you people who invested hours into the game. What do you make about that?
Thanks for the tips.
I guess it was a level problem then since I only started trying to invade on my NG+ playthrough.
Did they though? I think Dark Souls 2 looks thus far to be a game designed to blend the design sensibilities of Demon's and Dark in clever ways and make it have it's own personality as a result. They are, going by what I know thus far, doing exactly what I want them to do. There's a vocal group of players who want voice chat. There's also a group who abhor the idea. They've figured out how to keep both sides happy.
Evolved1
make sure the pudding isn't too soggy but that just ruins everything
It's not. As has been discussed, certain changes can really impact a game for the worse... one of the prime examples on gaf is Evilore explaining how unlimited, no penalty fast travel has seriously damaged quest design in the Elder Scrolls, and that it isn't a thing people can just "opt out" of. There are plenty of other examples. I have, for years, seen one beloved franchise after another lose their way. Whether it's due to a dev not understanding what was so appealing about them in the first place, or the pull to homogenize to draw a larger audience, whatever... it really really sucks.
I feel your pain dude.
However, not every change falls into this category. For example... the limited (possibly once per run) respec in Souls doesn't strike me as the sort. It doesn't creep its way into every aspect of quest design, or really affect the experience of anyone else's game... you would probably have more success convincing people why it's so bad if you could actually articulate an actual reason why it's so bad without resorting to your slippery slope "but what if the game just played itself" hypotheticals.
The review said the item is rare. Its not like the respec is going to be some microtransaction or some loot sold in some mmo auction. If people figure out an exploit on how to get infinite respecs than its up to FROM to act quickly and patch it. Otherwise we are still talking about a rare item which will most likely require a lot of souls or a long grind to obtain. The only time people will use this respec is to switch builds halfway through the game or switch builds in NG+ because they want to spend some time on pvp and vice versa. Also don't forget once you respec you lose your build so if you don't respec correctly you could wind up doing a long grind again to obtain a new respec. There is still a lot of room for error even for the people using the respec. Nothing is set in stone.
Deified Data
Banned
This "us versus them" narrative is absurd. There are plenty of newbies who are turned off by the changes and plenty of vets who welcome them.
Is this a joke or is the Dung Pie actually good? I sell all of them to Frampt D:
BlitzEngineer
Member
That's fair, and I agree, the "YOU don't have to use it" argument isn't a good one, but I think your slippery slope metaphor isn't a particularly compelling way to advance that point.
Straight up? No going back on any decision you ever made? Did the respec pots in D2 have the same effect? If it's once per NG+ is that still invalidating the player's decisions? I'm just trying to say it's possible for a respec system to be offer options to players that want it while not undermining consequence in character building.
And even if you disagree with that, you have to see that it's not an opinion that's going to hold alot of weight for a designer who wants to make a game fun. Dark Souls isn't a transparent or clear game by design, something which I think you enjoy. But if a more casual player ends up with a build he doesn't like for PvP, he's forced to play through the game again while reading through a wiki to tune his specific build for the sole purpose of creating the character he wants to play. Is it so bad that he wants to apply the knowledge he's gained through beating the game to a tune a build to be more effective without arbitrarily having to create a completely new character?
Ludicrous Speed
Banned
Glad to hear From Software made the game easier to get into this time around. Hated the first one because there was no direction and I didn't feel like wasting countless hours figuring it out. I hope the game is a lot easier. I may just pick this up during a steam sale if so.
You can play offline. Steam Offline Mode or PSN without signing in. No need to go through the hassle of blocking it.
The game is easier to understand via a more complete but fully optional tutorial, but thereafter the start of the game is reportedly harder than either of the previous Souls games.
When I talk about no respec, I am speaking for myself.
Why don't "more casual" players have a wiki for their first playthrough?
Garcia
Member
I also believe they made the right choices for DS2. In fact, since I never truly bothered with PvP you could say I really don't mind all the alterations and improvements done to that side of it, but I really am happy that they addressed a good portion of my concerns regarding PvE.
Ludicrous Speed
Banned
That's a good first step. I didn't play the first game long enough to determine how difficult it was. I just didn't want to waste my time trying to figure out the game when it just threw you in.
Baraka in the White House
2-Terms of Kombat
The only reason I will ever use voice chat in this game is to bellow PRAISE THE SUN.
Why would I sacrifice Steam Voice Chat for that? Or Text Chat?
Nope. And it's not like those two extra mouse klicks are any hassle at all.
Reason #78897379324 why this is stupid: all you have to do to change your build/previous decisions is to LEVEL UP. There is nothing persistent in Dark Souls to start with. Arbitrary meta PVP caps are player/community decided anyway. No-one tells you to stop at SL100 for example. If I had a 45 DEX build @ SL100 and suddenly decided I wanted to buff it with SLB, I'd just level up to 120-125. That's hardly persistent is it?
It's also my choice.
It is a joke to many.
However, for some of us who have mastered the Way of the Dung, it isn't a joke. We'll see who has the last laugh when it is you who dies at the hand of toxic shit (literally).
I actually haven't tried the Dung Pie build yet, but I've heard nothing but good things about it.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Garcia
Member
Not going to derail the thread, but I just wanted to make a quick reply about that.
I've put over a hundred hours into Oblivion and I don't think fast travel hurts the game on its own. It has more to do with how terrible most sidequests are and how they force the player to go from one corner of the game to the other. If they actually bothered to carefully think the progression of each quest you wouldn't even have to use fast travel at all.
Regardless, it's a silly analogy anyway. There are no QTE's in DkS2 and they have absolutely nothing to do with respec'ing anyway.
For all we know, getting the item required to respec may not even be available until NG+ too. It might also be dropped by the hardest boss in the entire game, fought on a narrow bridge, surrounded by 10,000 silver knight archer pinwheel skeleton bed of chaos'.
I already gave my reason for why I don't want any sort of respeccing: when distributing a stat point, I want to feel like my decision is meaningful, meaning that it has consequences. That sense is just not there when I know there's an option to respec later on (cue another "don't use it" response). Sorry if it's not convincing for you. For me it makes a huge difference.
Of course there's persistance. You still have to live with your "wrong" decisions; with wasted, cheap stat points. The only argument that is invalidated by the fact that you can just continue levelling is that you can't finish the game because you specced your character wrong.
Anyway, we're all going in circles. See you all in half a year or so when it's clear how much (or if) the changes impacted the experience.
Now we are argueing semantics?
Well then let's compromise. No respec but we will keep leveling. Done.
Evolved1
make sure the pudding isn't too soggy but that just ruins everything
You're right... but they didn't. Therefore, anyone wanting to opt out of fast travel is forced to trek across the map (a quest that almost dwarfs the main campaign) to retrieve a spoon for so and so because of reasons...
It doesn't have to break the game for the purists, but because the devs allowed it to creep into the quest design, it basically forces all players to use it, since opting out becomes more trouble than it should be.
To bring this back around to topic... this does not really reflect the situation with Soul's respec.
WheelHoss1
Member
I love the passion in this thread. 2 1/2 weeks to go . . .
Sounds good! Send an email to whiners@fromsoftware.com so they can implement your demands straight away!
Sanctuary
Member
Lol. No, really.
It must have really sucked for all of those SL1 characters that finished the game, realizing that they specced incorrectly.
Garcia
Member
I laughed more than I should have.
Yes, absolutely, it truly is insulting how a big portion of Oblivion's side quests were built around the abuse of the fast travel mechanics. And don't even get me started on the whole Oblivion gates. . .
It is a shame when you have such an expansive and beautiful world right there and you fail to utilize it in proper ways that could engage the player.
I agree.
I believe some form of respec is needed because it's incredibly easy to dump points into useless stats if you haven't scoured the internet wiki pages and know exactly what should go where and why. The games on their own are too vague about their stats and what they actually allow you to do and accomplish until it's too late so it shouldn't force the player into keeping them permanently.
Ugh. I never invade people, not even once. I've summoned a couple of times for some assistance with Orenstein & Smough. Only a few times did I follow someone's call sign to assist them.
I despise when someone invades my world. Sometimes I just want to be in human form so that I can have that extra health. I don't play DS enough to know all the ins and outs of PvP. If I get an uninterrupted hour to play DS it's a miracle around my house.
Nothing against you personally, but I understand why some people get angry about you invading their world. To me, the invader is interrupting my game time. I already have enough of a challenge with the singleplayer.
That said, I've never sent anyone a message before. I'm glad the likelihood of being invaded in II is much lower now.
D Bo Chops
Member
hahah AWESOME! "u r very molest n stupid" cracked me up. I remember when I FIRST played the game and sent hatemail, then learned that there will always be butthurt scum bags and learned to laugh it off. Only new players feel the need to cry about tactics. Vets know the drill...anything goes.
Then your beef (or rather, the angry people who hate invaders) is with FROM software for including the invasion balance mechanism, not me as a player, choosing to use a feature they implemented. There is a whole lore behind the Darkwraith's and invading other peoples world, that is quite poorly understood by the masses. It is also a crucial means of giving balance to the game, since when the host is human, they have the ability to summon other players and make the game easier for themselves. They also have higher defence the more humanity they have, as well as higher drop rates and curse/poison resistance. Tit for tat, etc..
Also, the likelihood of being invaded in Dark Souls II is MUCH MUCH MUCH higher, simply because you can't avoid it by being hollow. Sorry!