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[Raydeen]

Elevator guy learns the perils of being a nice guy. When will they learn.

 

[Al-ibn Kermit]

so... was he supposed write 18 letters to 18 imaginary women who each suffer from one of the various abuses rife within muslim communities in the middle east? maybe a couple dozen more letters to western muslim communities to keep up the good work?

Geez, this is alot of work to say a woman in an elevator freaking out because someone asked her out was overreacting.

Well there's only five things on the list but yes, it is a huge exaggeration to assume that muslim women that live in the east are mostly oppressed in those ways. His point isn't to rant against Islam but to make the original blogger's post seem whiny, therefore just pointing out the hardships that random non-western women may suffer (rather than non-western muslim women) makes it a more focused and sensible response.

right, but Muslim women do have their genitals mutilated by razors, they are denied the ability to drive as well as a number of other rights. the common factor shared by these women that drives and legitimizes their abuse is their religion, not their specific tribe, not their nation. Nothing good will come from hiding that and acknowledging it doesn't magically make every Muslim male a misogynistic wife beater either.


No you see, he's not at fault at all.

You have to be able to register the fact that both religion and culture can hold women back. In the examples you listed, female genital mutilation and banning women from driving cars are two things that the koran does not even hint at supporting. Those are purely cultural things. The driving ban is only in Saudi Arabia and genital mutilation is pretty much only practiced in African countries.

 

[meltingparappa]

This happened almost two months ago.

I saw this thread and how large it had grown, and thought I somehow missed out when it was originally posted.

Turns out it has inspired enough rage to grow in only two days.

Pertinent facts that have already been posted but lost in the holy race war known as internet debate (if you think GAF is bad, the raw savagery on blogs and livejournals are just terrible)

• All Rebecca said was "this is an awkward thing for someone to do"
• All Dawkins did was make an elaborate and eloquent troll equivalent of "whitewhine"
• An exchange between Rebecca and Dawkins never took place following the kerfuffle. Anything beyond the first two events is just an escalation by white knights on both sides of a ridiculous argument of generalizations.

Both parties should have really known better than to be caught up in something so dumb, but Rebecca lives her life on her blog's sleeve and Dawkins is conditioned to use provocative exaggerations.

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

This whole scenario is just odd. Really odd.

 

[Always-honest]

Poor guy finally gets the guts to say something to a lady, he said it in the most kind and unagressive way he could imagine and she puts it on a blog basicly saying he's a creep. Not directy, but that's what it comes down to.

Dawkins reacts in a way that is so over the top that he draws attention in a negative way.

All fine and dandy, both are attention whores and that's what they got.

I just feel bad for the dude.

 

[ComputerMKII]

Poor guy finally gets the guts to say something to a lady, he said it in the most kind and unagressive way he could imagine and she puts it on a blog basicly saying he's a creep. Not directy, but that's what it comes down to.

Dawkins reacts in a way that is so over the top that he draws attention in a negative way.

All fine and dandy, both are attention whores and that's what they got.

I just feel bad for the dude.

 

[UrbanRats]

Poor guy finally gets the guts to say something to a lady, he said it in the most kind and unagressive way he could imagine and she puts it on a blog basicly saying he's a creep. Not directy, but that's what it comes down to.

Dawkins reacts in a way that is so over the top that he draws attention in a negative way.

All fine and dandy, both are attention whores and that's what they got.

I just feel bad for the dude.

"Girl-AGE, i followed your advice, but i blew it"

 

[The Lamp]

Man Dawkins, you don't at least understand where she's coming from? I'm not a woman and although yes, I see Dawkins' view that it was just an invitation to coffee, I also understand where she's coming from with her position being in a foreign country, and the fact that I also sympathize because my mother was taken advantage of a lot in her travels in her career for being a woman. So although there was nothing inherently wrong with what the man did, I see how it could have made a lonely woman feel uncomfortable.

But worse, he unnecessarily bludgeoned the Muslim community in the beginning of the blog post.

Why does such a smart, blessed, sociable and well-off man harbor so much passive aggression?

 

[Arrowgigantic]

Poor guy, all he wanted was to have anonymous sex with a woman visiting from another country whom he would then never see again. Such a nice guy.

 

[EliCash]

Rebecca Watson sounds like an annoying person. That's my two cents anyway, can't see what Dawkins did wrong here.

 

[Enkidu]

But worse, he unnecessarily bludgeoned the Muslim community in the beginning of the blog post.

But the only part of the muslim community who would be offended by what Dawkins wrote would be the ones who are in favor of genital mutilation and such. That doesn't seem like a part of the community that deserves any respect to me.

 

[Piecake]

Poor guy, all he wanted was to have anonymous sex with a woman visiting from another country whom he would then never see again. Such a nice guy.

You seriously have some fucked up views about sexuality. Wanting/attempting to have sex with someone you are attracted to, even if you'll never see that person again, does not make you morally degenerate. You'd only be that if don't take no for an answer, harass the other person, or are in a committed relationship

 

[UrbanRats]

I finally read all the story from her blog.
I seriously can't believe such a little bullshit argument (from both parties) got blown this out of proportion.
You gotta love the internet, sometimes.

 

[Speedymanic]

Rebecca Watson sounds like an annoying person. That's my two cents anyway, can't see what Dawkins did wrong here.

Sounds like she needs to be get laid.

 

[Coxy]

This topic makes me want to go watch Tucker & Dale vs Evil again

 

[Always-honest]

Sounds like she needs to be get laid.

She would have been if the guy was more goodlooking or rich.

Spoiler

i kid

 

[Arrowgigantic]

You seriously have some fucked up views about sexuality. Wanting/attempting to have sex with someone you are attracted to, even if you'll never see that person again, does not make you morally degenerate.

Didn't say that it did. But with the amount of sympathy the guy's getting, apparently some people feel like he's a hero for a new age and it's terrible that she's dismissed him as some guy who only wanted random sex with her because every woman should feel a certain way about that, and that way is "AWESOME! A DUDE WANTS TO SEX ME UP AND THEN NEVER SEE ME AGAIN!"

 

[Wanda/Wander]

I keep reading Rebbecca Watson as Rebbecca Black

 

[CriginsMcJuggs]

I'm not all that fond of Richard Dawkins, and I do agree that greater evils do not render lesser evils unimportant, but that girl is definitely overreacting. Simply getting hit on in that manner is not sexism. Reminds me of this "alert" I received through my campus email a quarter or two ago:

"A female student relayed the following information to UCSC officers about an incident that occurred while she was running on a Pogonip trail near the UCSC Firehouse at around 11:30 yesterday morning:

She reported that she noticed a male jogging behind her, that she asked him not to, and that he complied with her request.

Officers searched the area but were unable to locate the male. He is described as white; about 20 years of age; of medium height; shirtless, wearing basketball shorts short, and a backwards baseball cap.

No crime is alleged to have occurred. But as a precaution, we wanted to share this information with you.

Thank you."

What the fuck.

Haha Incredible

 

[Always-honest]

Didn't say that it did. But with the amount of sympathy the guy's getting, apparently some people feel like he's a hero for a new age and it's terrible that she's dismissed him as some guy who only wanted random sex with her because every woman should feel a certain way about that, and that way is "AWESOME! A DUDE WANTS TO SEX ME UP AND THEN NEVER SEE ME AGAIN!"

He gets sympathy for having the guts to ask her for a drink.
You incredible dramatic person you.

 

[Dennis]

Poor guy, all he wanted was to have anonymous sex with a woman visiting from another country whom he would then never see again. Such a nice guy.

Sex is dirty and wrong.

 

[msv]

Didn't say that it did. But with the amount of sympathy the guy's getting, apparently some people feel like he's a hero for a new age and it's terrible that she's dismissed him as some guy who only wanted random sex with her because every woman should feel a certain way about that, and that way is "AWESOME! A DUDE WANTS TO SEX ME UP AND THEN NEVER SEE ME AGAIN!"

Your mind... it's not functioning properly. Who said there was anything wrong with dismissing him? Do you really not get that it's about her, lambasting him online, comparing it to sexual assault and rape, and that that might kinda suck for the dude, and anyone who actually underwent rape and such? The guy just made a pass at a girl in an elevator, which isn't a big deal, she didn't get hurt in any way. She was just scared/uncomfortable for a little bit, which was because of her own paranoia, given that he was polite about it.

 

[UrbanRats]

Didn't say that it did. But with the amount of sympathy the guy's getting, apparently some people feel like he's a hero for a new age and it's terrible that she's dismissed him as some guy who only wanted random sex with her because every woman should feel a certain way about that, and that way is "AWESOME! A DUDE WANTS TO SEX ME UP AND THEN NEVER SEE ME AGAIN!"

Maybe he wanted to sex her up multiple times.

 

[Arrowgigantic]

lambasting him online

She initially said, "don't do that, I don't like that". What a lambasting!

comparing it to sexual assault and rape

She didn't do that, you're just assuming she did. She said that approaching someone in an elevator is creepy and could make a person think they're in danger, not that it was the same thing as an assault.

 

[Piecake]

She initially said, "don't do that, I don't like that". What a lambasting!


She didn't do that, you're just assuming she did. She said that approaching someone in an elevator is creepy and could make a person think they're in danger, not that it was the same thing as an assault.

your selective comprehension is impressive. I salute you good sir.

 

[Arrowgigantic]

your selective comprehension is impressive. I salute you good sir.

Yes, she obviously felt like she was sexually assaulted, which is why she didn't mention it until the last part of her video. She had to warm up with Mythbusters to build up the courage to talk about it. And she was so angry about it.

 

[Dude Abides]

Asking a strange woman in a hotel elevator to go back to your room for "coffee" isn't creepy. On this both virgins and he-man woman haters can agree.

 

[Zaptruder]

In making society hyper-acutely aware of gender 'issues' like this, you run the risk of not just sucking all the fun out of cross gender interactions, but creating perceptions of harm and wrong doing, where none should exist.

 

[devilhawk]

Your mind... it's not functioning properly. Who said there was anything wrong with dismissing him? Do you really not get that it's about her, lambasting him online, comparing it to sexual assault and rape, and that that might kinda suck for the dude, and anyone who actually underwent rape and such? The guy just made a pass at a girl in an elevator, which isn't a big deal, she didn't get hurt in any way. She was just scared/uncomfortable for a little bit, which was because of her own paranoia, given that he was polite about it.

Exactly. Her initial video of calling the invitation creepy isn't the issue. Dawkins compared this incident to the plight of some Muslim women. She responded in podcasts and convention speeches that his statement dismissed all female survivors of rape and sexual assault in the West. In doing so, she also ironically marginalized rape and sexual assault victims by declaring her incident sexual objectification, associating him to a potential rapists, and linking her incident to one that a survivor of sexual assault and rape would undergo.

Of course no one is making blogs and centering topics of speeches and podcasts when it is her self-admittedly sexual objectifying and demeaning women.

http://skepchick.org/2006/04/a-very-heretical-easter/

 

[faceless007]

your selective comprehension is impressive. I salute you good sir.

No, he's absolutely right about that. It was two goddamn minutes in a personal vlog where the most incendiary thing she said was "Guys, don't do that, it makes us uncomfortable" and that alone interrupted the entire skeptical blogosphere and prompted thousands of hateful commenters (including in this thread) to lose their shit. So who's overreacting?

 

[Naked Snake]

http://youtu.be/LEl4QfcAK2o?t=1m10s

People saying Dawkins came off a bit harsh must really not know him.

 

[Orayn]

No, he's absolutely right about that. It was two goddamn minutes in a personal vlog where the most incendiary thing she said was "Guys, don't do that, it makes us uncomfortable" and that alone interrupted the entire skeptical blogosphere and prompted thousands of hateful commenters (including in this thread) to lose their shit. So who's overreacting?

Clearly the woman, because that's the kind of hysterical thing women do. Watson is clearly an insane feminazi leading a smear campaign against men everywhere.

 

[Piecake]

No, he's absolutely right about that. It was two goddamn minutes in a personal vlog where the most incendiary thing she said was "Guys, don't do that, it makes us uncomfortable" and that alone interrupted the entire skeptical blogosphere and prompted thousands of hateful commenters (including in this thread) to lose their shit. So who's overreacting?

Why do you guys conveniently ignore what she wrote after that?

 

[Arrowgigantic]

That's a jawpalm.

 

[Evlar]

I don't care.

 

[faceless007]

Why do you guys conveniently ignore what she wrote after that?

Because that's not what prompted the backlash. It went viral before Dawkins stepped into the fray. You can't defend the ridiculous backlash it initially got then retcon to it somehow being a defense of rape survivors. Yeah, I totally believe that's what was really motivating all the guys who sent her spiteful comments.

 

[devilhawk]

Why do you guys conveniently ignore what she wrote after that?

Exactly. She gave speeches at conventions about it, some before Dawkins even replied. She also hijacked science podcasts to talk about it.

 

[Esiquio]

So women having sex with strangers makes them whores?

Hahahaha....wait....nosureifserious.gif

 

[Piecake]

Because that's not what prompted the backlash. It went viral before Dawkins stepped into the fray. You can't defend the ridiculous backlash it initially got then retcon to it somehow being a defense of rape survivors.

I'm not. She should have either taken the high road and ignored the morons or called them fucking disgusting morons not worth her time. She didnt do that though and made that harmless incident out to be much more than it really was

 

[Speedymanic]

She would have been if the guy was more goodlooking or rich.

Spoiler

i kid

Or, as is the more likely, needed to do some 'spring cleaning' and was so frustrated at missing out on potential sex, decided to vent on a vblog and turn it into something it wasn't...

Spoiler

 

[Sennorin]

How do you approach a hardcore feminist girl anyway? Wouldn´t she always accuse you of being sexist, because, you know, you *are* approaching her to have sex with her, afterall. "Oh no, don´t objectizise me!" :/

 

[Speedymanic]

How do you approach a hardcore feminist girl anyway? Wouldn´t she always accuse you of being sexist, because, you know, you *are* approaching her to have sex with her, afterall. "Oh no, don´t objectizise me!" :/

"hey"...

"Ugh, get away from you, you walking hardon, I refuse to be objectified by you, I refuse to allow you to take me out to dinner and woo me, I refuse to even allow you to finish whatever it was you were about to say"

Moments later...

"Sexual assault, sexual objectification, RAAAAAAAAAAAAPE" "He just tried to ask me out, I feel so violated, so dirty, so abused."

That's pretty much how I see it going.

 

[Arrowgigantic]

How do you approach a hardcore feminist girl anyway? Wouldn´t she always accuse you of being sexist, because, you know, you *are* approaching her to have sex with her, afterall. "Oh no, don´t objectizise me!" :/

Sennorin
Seriously thinks Cardcaptor Sakura would be better if Sakura had large breasts

 

[Piecake]

How do you approach a hardcore feminist girl anyway? Wouldn´t she always accuse you of being sexist, because, you know, you *are* approaching her to have sex with her, afterall. "Oh no, don´t objectizise me!" :/

And this is why I find it ridiculous when people define sexual objectification like that. Under that definition, you are sexually objectifying someone by asking someone out for coffee because you are attracted to them and want to have sex with them. Same with in for coffee - a little more blatant, but the result is the same, you still want to have sex with them.

The problem is that it equates those harmless interchanges with actual sexual objectification since asking someone in for coffee is not even remotely close to someone going up to another person and saying "hey, sweet-buns, You're body is totally fuckable, lets put it to good use."

 

[Count Dookkake]

How do you approach a hardcore feminist girl anyway? Wouldn´t she always accuse you of being sexist, because, you know, you *are* approaching her to have sex with her, afterall. "Oh no, don´t objectizise me!" :/

With confidence and wit. Some of them actually have a sense of humor and enjoy a proper boning. Do not mistake political zeal for frigidity.

 

[faceless007]

I'm not. She should have either taken the high road and ignored the morons or called them fucking disgusting morons not worth her time. She didnt do that though and made that harmless incident out to be much more than it really was

Why? So that you wouldn't have had to hear about it? She was trying to point out that even within a community as supposedly progressive, rational and enlightened as the skeptic community, there exists a shamefully prevalent degree of misogny and sexism, as evidenced by the blowback against her two-minute vlog. That puts her in the unenviable position, as so many minorities and women are, of trying to bring such things to light without seeming overly defensive, because of course once you come across as defensive your point is automatically invalid and you're just being hysterical. But that's bullshit. You can agree or disagree with her point, you can have an argument about what the encounter truly meant or did not mean, but to ignore the entire altogether and say she should have just shut up about it is, sadly, the predictable reaction of someone without an argument. No, she's not the one who overreacted.

What I mean to say is, all the angry commenters, rape-threateners, bloggers, are the ones who made it out to be more than it was because all they reacted to was the vlog. That gave her perfect ammo to further discuss the subject and put it in the broader context of the prevalence of rape culture and males who don't like to be confronted with their privilege. So if you have a problem with the amount of attention it got, blame them. Not her fault all those guys confirmed the worst stereotypes of the argument.

 

[Piecake]

Why? So that you wouldn't have had to hear about it? She was trying to point out that even within a community as supposedly progressive, rational and enlightened as the skeptic community, there exists a shamefully prevalent degree of misogny and sexism, as evidenced by the blowback against her two-minute vlog. That puts her in the unenviable position, as so many minorities and women are, of trying to bring such things to light without seeming overly defensive, because of course once you come across as defensive your point is automatically invalid and you're just being hysterical. But that's bullshit. You can agree or disagree with her point, you can have an argument about what the encounter truly meant or did not mean, but to ignore the entire altogether and say she should have just shut up about it is, sadly, the predictable reaction of someone without an argument. No, she's not the one who overreacted.

Are you serious? She can bring attention to those morons by calling them out on their stupid, disgusting immaturity. People being complete douche bags on blogs does not give her justification to paint herself as a victim in that little incident and claim that the guy was sexually demeaning misogynistic rapist.

She has every right to call the people who said she needed a good rape disgusting misogynistic pigs, but painting that incident in the elevator than anything more than an uncomfortable non-issue is just wrong.

 

[faceless007]

Are you serious? She can bring attention to those morons by calling them out on their stupid, disgusting immaturity.

That's exactly what she did. First you say you she should have shut up about the whole thing and taken the high road and let it die down, now you're saying she should do exactly what she did do by discussing the backlash! Pick one.

People being complete douche bags on blogs does not give her justification to paint herself as a victim in that little incident and claim that the guy was sexually demeaning misogynistic rapist.

Good thing she never claimed that. It's so telling that everyone has to keep mis-stating what she wrote that prompted such outrage as being so much more irrational than it really was.

If you're going to argue that "She should just ignore the irrational haters and get on with her life because the guy really wasn't that much of a threat" how does not apply to this ten-page GAF thread and the people hating on her?

She has every right to call the people who said she needed a good rape disgusting misogynistic pigs, but painting that incident in the elevator than anything more than an uncomfortable non-issue is just wrong.

The elevator issue prompted the backlash which gave her the ammo to keep talking about it. What is it about being asked not sexually proposition (yes, that's what it fucking was, the bar was still open) a stranger at 4 am in an elevator that makes us all feel so goddamn persecuted? Yeah, and it's the women who overreact.

Edit: You don't get it, and it may seem unfair, but the more you act outraged and persecuted about being asked to respect her wishes, the more you confirm feminists' arguments about male privilege and guys who just don't think rape is a big deal. Why the fuck is it so aggrieving to you that she posted a goddamn vlog about the encounter?

 

[Speedymanic]

Maybe he didn't know the bar was still open? Or maybe he wanted to get to know her in a more intimate setting...

Sounds like you're suffering from the same delusions, "he asked me up to his room for coffee, so he obviously wants to pound me silly".

 

[Mortrialus]

It is worthing noting at this point that we have a society that prizes intellectualism and rationality but yet the father of the Socratic method - Socrates - was in his younger days a warrior in the Athenian army.

Bullshit and you know it.

• All Rebecca said was "this is an awkward thing for someone to do"

No. She has also called the man who asked her out misogynistic, that he sexuallized her and was sexually demeaning which is where much of the criticism is coming from.

Good thing she never claimed that. It's so telling that everyone has to keep mis-stating what she wrote that prompted such outrage as being so much more irrational than it really was.

This shit has been settled, she did claim that. Lying is pretty disgusting when we've already established her quotes earlier in the thread.

makes me uncomfortable when men sexualize me in that manner.

Richard Dawkins believes I should be a good girl and just shut up about being sexually objectified

Every time I mention, however delicately, a possible issue of misogyny or objectification in our community, the response I get shows me that the problem is much worse than I thought