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[chromatic9]

Uncharted 2 $20 million
Dead Space 2 $60 million

There's 15 months difference between the two. The number of people and the area could make a difference but I thought SF and LA aren't much difference but it's 3x times. Then you have the marketing for DS2.

This is crazy off the back of a much lower budget Dead Space which sold 2 million. This game would have to sell 6-8 million in that COD Halo Gears online climate. Not only is the dev cost too high, actually thinking this was a good step after the first game is just damaging to games.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Uncharted 2 $20 million
Dead Space 2 $60 million

There's 15 months difference between the two. The number of people and the area could make a difference but I thought SF and LA aren't much difference but it's 3x times. Then you have the marketing for DS2.

This is crazy off the back of a much lower budget Dead Space which sold 2 million. This game would have to sell 6-8 million in that COD Halo Gears online climate. Not only is the dev cost too high, actually thinking this was a good step after the first game is just damaging to games.

Stop mindlessly comparing budgets and ignoring the cost of asset creation/scope of each game, team sizes, team locations, etc.

 

[SourBear]

I strongly disagree with the premise that because publishers haven't raised prices from $60 is the reason there are loot boxes now.

Loot boxes would have come regardless. It is too profitable not to have them. They will be in every AAA game in the next couple of years in one form or another. You can mark my words.

 

[Steroyd]

How the fuck did DS2 cost that much, what baffles me more is that indies picked up where the horror genre got abandoned and didn't DS2 sell more than DS1?

Keep in mind, video games today cost more to make than they did in the 360/PS3 era regardless of inflation. Now consider that $60 in 2005 money (The year the 360 was released) is over $75 in 2017. Game prices not rising with the rate of inflation is causing an untenable situation. Maybe an unpopular opinion, but raising the price of AAA games to at least $70 will be good for the industry and good for consumers.

But games are already $100+ with season passes and deluxe editions etc especially if you're under the belief that devs cut content to sell you later like with pre-order bonuses.

 

[The_Spaniard]

EA doesn't care what others think. They wanted to push MP and likely a season pass and DLC.

Back when it came out I wrote up a treatment for an entire map pack for MP with unique features that would make MP fun and compelling. Posted it on some forums, the feedback was very positive, wish I could have gotten a chance to pitch it.

 

[Kill3r7]

An EA investor call said 2 million of those sales were week one

That is double the production budget in one week in sales

That would be a huge success for a movie

There is money missing somewhere

And the Poland thing:
Not sure about tech companies but I work as an analyst at a bank, over half of my department is in Poland, they make about 1/4 the salary of someone in the US with the exact same job

Games are not like movies. They only get one bite at the apple. Also your math is off. Publishers do not make $60 per game. Furthermore that cost likely does not include the cost of marketing.

 

[Anustart]

Not about the current discussion, but would the general consensus be 2 is better than 1? I really enjoyed my time with the first one and the second has been in my library forever but haven't started!

Some glowing impressions might change that and push it ahead up my queue!

 

[Lord of Ostia]

MP is normally a very small fraction of total dev cost.

Depends on the game. For Dead Space, that's probably true.

 

[Zukkoyaki]

Dead Space 2's issue might have been that most of its sales were at bargain bin prices.

I think this here is the key point.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Not about the current discussion, but would the general consensus be 2 is better than 1? I really enjoyed my time with the first one and the second has been in my library forever but haven't started!

Some glowing impressions might change that and push it ahead up my queue!

2 is a fantastic sequel in every way.

 

[Audioboxer]

Yea again you're faulting them for being ambitious with their sequel to their well received multimillion IP. They created one of the best sequels of last gen. Dead Space 2 didn't kill the studio. That's completely ignoring the context of what happened after they made that game. AND, what you're still not taking into account is that even tho they sold 4m, not all of those were at full price.


Even DS2 had a lot of macro and micro design choices to accommodate a broader audience appeal.

I didn't comment on DS2s quality, it was an amazing game. Spending $120m+ on it was completely unreasonable. They were never going to make mass profit on that so either EA knew that in advance and greenlit that budget anyway, or they completely mismanaged their projections.

That sort of mismanagement of IP and unreasonable expectations may well be the stepping stones that lead EA to blaming Visceral for not meeting the targets they never would have met because they were outrageous, and shuttering them for it. It's like pissing in your own juice and then firing someone else claiming it's their fault. EA don't know how to manage an IP and studio if they truly expected spending these kinds of budgets on horror games to bring them massive profits.

Considering the amount of studios they shutter after acquiring them they have a serious problem with their own expectations and running these studios properly.

 

[Gurish]

Sounds unreal that the overall production of this game cost 120$M in 2011. I don't believe this honestly.

 

[Certinty]

$60m is crazy. From what I remember the game was pretty much identical to the first too.

 

[TwilightPrincess]

Yeah, not true. It was 81 mln USD total.

I read it in polnish news at the time of launch http://next.gazeta.pl/pieniadz/1,13...rdem_sprzedazy__4_mln_sztuk___Trzyletnie.html , seems to be wrong then. They said it was 120 Mio zloty for the game plus around 35 mio dollar for promoting it. That would have been around 70 mio dollar.

But even with around 80 Mio dollars it would be 40 mio cheaper than DS2

 

[Instro]

Last known sales figures for Horizon had it at 3.4m copies sold at full price.

Unless the budget was astronomical it's hard to believe it isn't profitable.

Dead Space 2's issue might have been that most of its sales were at bargain bin prices.

Presumably, although it apparently shipped 2 million it's first week. I suppose it's possible that it didn't sell most of those, although a quick jump back to old NPD threads makes me think that it sold through most of that WW in a month or two, considering it's first week sales were nearly 500k for NA retail.

I don't know, I guess I feel like something is missing here between the budget and what was said in those tweets?

 

[PhantomKnight]

i don't understand why marketing budgets are expensive nowadays, since they can just throw ads up on YT, Twitter, FB, etc. and that's a whole lot cheaper than the old model of print, billboards, magazine ads, TV commercials etc.

Marketing isn’t just about throwing up your ads, it could involve the creation of the ads(live action), creating and designing the official website, setting up booths at E3, gamescon, press and preview event, paying retailers to spotlight the game on release. There are a lot that goes into martketing besides playing ads.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I didn't comment on DS2s quality, it was an amazing game. Spending $120m+ on it was completely unreasonable. They were never going to make mass profit on that so either EA knew that in advance and greenlit that budget anyway, or they completely mismanaged their projections.

That sort of mismanagement of IP and unreasonable expectations may well be the stepping stones that lead EA to blaming Visceral for not meeting the targets they never would have met because they were outrageous, and shuttering them for it. It's like pissing in your own juice and then firing someone else claiming it's their fault. EA don't know how to manage an IP and studio if they truly expected spending these kinds of budgets on horror games to bring them massive profits.

Like I said they made a ton of macro and micro changes to appeal to a broader audience. And you're still ignoring that horror games in 2010 had way different profit margins than they do today. AND that despite selling 4 million copies, not all of those were at full price. I.E., a multitude of factors leading to it underperforming despite being a great game. The mismanagement didn't come until DS3, where the entire focus of the game shifted genres to the point of being almost unrecognizable to the former two.

 

[Sanke__]

Games are not like movies. They only get one bite at the apple. Also your math is off. Publishers do not make $60 per game. Furthermore that cost likely does not include the cost of marketing.

I know

Sales =/= profit

Production budget does not include marketing

My point is the numbers don’t add up

Maybe they spent too much on marketing
Maybe developers don’t get a large enough percentage of sales

Something is not ok

 

[Sohter.Nura]

They should re-release. I'd totally buy a Dead Space trilogy for the switch

 

[Audioboxer]

Like I said they made a ton of macro and micro changes to appeal to a broader audience. And you're still ignoring that horror games in 2010 had way different profit margins than they do today. AND that despite selling 4 million copies, not all of those were at full price. I.E., a multitude of factors leading to it underperforming despite being a great game. The mismanagement didn't come until DS3, where the entire focus of the game shifted genres to the point of being almost unrecognizable to the former two.

I'm sorry, but even in 2010 horror games did not have widespread budgets of $120 million dollars. Please point out the other horror games costing that kind of money around that time and making healthy profits?

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

Sad that budgets have ballooned like crazy, but I will always be glad Visceral was able to create Dead Space and Dead Space 2, two of my all-time favourite games. DS2 in particular really stuck with me as a great example of the cinematic shooter. Top-tier all the way.

 

[David___]

I know

Sales =/= profit

Production budget does not include marketing

My point is the numbers don’t add up

Maybe they spent too much on marketing
Maybe developers don’t get a large enough percentage of sales

Something is not ok

This is from 2010
https://kotaku.com/5479698/what-your-60-really-buys

EA got $27 for every copy sold

 

[Crossing Eden]

I'm sorry, but even in 2010 horror games did not have widespread budgets of $120 million dollars. Please point out the other horror games costing that kind of money around that time and making healthy profits?

In 2010 most horror games didn't have the production quality of Dead Space 2 to begin with.

 

[LeleSocho]

We need to return to a point where games should cost a tenth of what DS2 costed, such a healthier market it would be.

 

[Jacqli]

Stop mindlessly comparing budgets and ignoring the cost of asset creation/scope of each game, team sizes, team locations, etc.

And EA's mismanagement probably. They are notorious for situations like this one: killing off studios, keeping outdated game mechanics, anti-consumer practices, unnecessary features… I mean, they have the Star Wars license and it feels totally wasted. At this rate, the license is going to expire before we get a single player experience based on SW universe.

 

[Nosgotham]

Stop mindlessly comparing budgets and ignoring the cost of asset creation/scope of each game, team sizes, team locations, etc.

why? those are all decisions to be made. ill compare it all day

 

[Joeku]

Not about the current discussion, but would the general consensus be 2 is better than 1? I really enjoyed my time with the first one and the second has been in my library forever but haven't started!

Some glowing impressions might change that and push it ahead up my queue!

It's far too easy to say that Dead Space 2 to Dead Space is akin to Aliens to Alien, but it's also too true to not say it. The game is bigger, a little dumber, and lot more reliant on action than horror, but it's really fucking fantastic.

 

[Dalek]

Sad that budgets have ballooned like crazy, but I will always be glad Visceral was able to create Dead Space and Dead Space 2, two of my all-time favourite games. DS2 in particular really stuck with me as a great example of the cinematic shooter. Top-tier all the way.

Me too. I have such fond memories of those two games. The scene in part 2 where Isaac jettisons himself into space to get to another area was fantastic.

I’d buy a remake in a heartbeat.

 

[chromatic9]

How the fuck did DS2 cost that much, what baffles me more is that indies picked up where the horror genre got abandoned and didn't DS2 sell more than DS1?
.

Apparently it's down to the scope of DS2 compared to something like Uncharted 2, the area of SF compared to LA, asset creation in DS2.

By the way (to someone else) I did mention team sizes previously, my question is actually based on the end product and justification.

why? those are all decisions to be made. ill compare it all day

Exactly. It's Crossing Eden though so you really can't.

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

Damn, Dead Space 1 and 2 are some of the greatest horror experiences in gaming. I hope it returns some day.

I strongly disagree with the premise that because publishers haven't raised prices from $60 is the reason there are loot boxes now.

Loot boxes would have come regardless. It is too profitable not to have them. They will be in every AAA game in the next couple of years in one form or another. You can mark my words.

Yup.

 

[kc44135]

Wow, that's crazy expensive! It's a shame the franchise died. The Dead Space games were a lot fun, even if there were better games (like RE5 and 6) to play at the time.

They should re-release. I'd totally buy a Dead Space trilogy for the switch

Yeah, I'd be down for a re-release, especially on Switch. Hasn't EA said they'll never do remasters or something to that degree, though?

 

[Kill3r7]

Uncharted 2 $20 million
Dead Space 2 $60 million

There's 15 months difference between the two. The number of people and the area could make a difference but I thought SF and LA aren't much difference but it's 3x times. Then you have the marketing for DS2.

This is crazy off the back of a much lower budget Dead Space which sold 2 million. This game would have to sell 6-8 million in that COD Halo Gears online climate. Not only is the dev cost too high, actually thinking this was a good step after the first game is just damaging to games.

That Uncharted 2 number is ridiculously low and mighty impressive if true. I have had smaller teams, in a completely different industry, rack up annual billables greater than UC2’s budget.

 

[Audioboxer]

In 2010 most horror games didn't have the production quality of Dead Space 2 to begin with.

So it was therefore a mistake to plow that kind of money into production values and expect a profit? You can make the flashiest product on the market at whatever it costs to do so, but you might have to be happy breaking even or even making a loss. If you're not happy with that then you mismanaged your own projections and budgets around production quality.

Unless you're happy like Shuhei/Sony are for some games to be funded off the back of others and not all make massive profits then you shouldn't be running all your studios/IPs like you expect that

When you look at what we do, managing studios and managing funds, that’s essentially what we do: to look for talent and support talent, because at the end of the day it’s the people that create amazing things, and it’s the creative team that makes breakthroughs.

It’s a hit-driven business. We look at our financial results of the titles, and probably three or four out of ten make money, and maybe one or two make all the money to cover the cost of the others titles. So we have to be able to maintain that hit ratio at a certain level to be able to continue in the business, so we always try to find out and support and help grow the talent. That’s the most important work that I believe myself and some of my management team at worldwide studios are doing.

If EA believe everything they ever develop has to make serious profits then they shouldn't ever have been greenlighting a budget of $120m, and then blaming visceral for not seeing it rain money off of that.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

We need to return to a point where games should cost a tenth of what DS2 costed, such a healthier market it would be.

Indie's are filling voids that publishers are ignoring.

 

[Crossing Eden]

And EA's mismanagement probably. They are notorious for situations like this one: killing off studios, keeping outdated game mechanics... I mean, they have the Star Wars franchise,

What was outdated about DS2 at the time of release?

why? those are all decisions to be made. ill compare it all day

Then actually compare instead of using the numbers. Hell compare the tech too, and cost of developing for one platform compared to 3.

So it was therefore a mistake to plow that kind of money into production values and expect a profit? You can make the flashiest product on the market at whatever it costs to do so, but you might have to be happy breaking even or even making a loss. If you're not happy with that then you mismanaged your own projections and budgets around production quality.

You realize that production doesn't just mean graphics right? There's also the longer levels, the set pieces, the adjustments to enemy AI, the expansion and adjustment of the player move set. DS2 wasn't just a flashy product. It was a more advanced game.

 

[Bishop89]

i shocked how much it cost.

I might be getting my figures mixed up, but didnt i read that Uncharted 4 cost only like 20-30 million (or maybe it was U2)?

I loved DS2, shame it didnt sell as well.

I've always appreciated Bullet with Butterfly Wings was featured in the launch trailer

 

[Curufinwe]

It's crazy that such a basic game cost $60 million to make. Strikes me as something that would cost half that. It wasn't a very ambitious game in any aspect and the graphics weren't cutting edge for the time either.

Something's crazy.

 

[Jacqli]

What was outdated about DS2 at the time of release?


Then actually compare instead of using the numbers. Hell compare the tech too, and cost of developing for one platform compared to 3.

I am not talking solely about DS2. I was thinking more of DAI and MEA's MMO mechanics with that statement.

 

[scitek]

Intimate atmospheric survival horror games shouldn't need that sort of budget.

Being developed in the Bay Area is going to inflate costs. I also work in an industry where the pay scale varies drastically based on cost of living (television), and my buddy went from making 55k a year in St. Louis to 95k a year in San Jose doing the exact same work (producer). Oh and btw, it's so expensive there, he actually took home more each week at 55k.

 

[Cow Mengde]

They should have made Dead Space 2 into an on-rails shooter. That'll turn a profit.

 

[NastyBook]

That SP was fucking incredible. Doubt we'll see a re-make with this news, so I got another reason to get a PC next year.

 

[Cave Johnson]

Yup. Dead Space 2 is such a phenomenal horror experience. More people need to play it!

I'm surprised people would say this. It felt more like a carnival train scare than "horror". There's too many action set pieces and the gross amount of combat scenarios saturated any horror elements it had left. I wanted Dead Space 2, instead I got a spinoff of Gears of War.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

I liked DS2 alot when i first played it, but i replayed it a couple of months ago and didnt even finish it. The original is better for sure.

 

[EDarkness]

They should have made Dead Space 2 into an on-rails shooter. That'll turn a profit.

Yeah, that would have been a great idea. Surprised they didn't do it.

 

[scitek]

They should re-release. I'd totally buy a Dead Space trilogy for the switch

EA don't do HD remasters for...whatever dumb reason.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I am not talking solely about DS2. I was thinking more of DAI and MEA's MMO mechanics with that statement.

DA:I wasn't outdated either for a 2014 RPG.

 

[kc44135]

EA don't do HD remasters for...whatever dumb reason.

 

[Audioboxer]

What was outdated about DS2 at the time of release?


Then actually compare instead of using the numbers. Hell compare the tech too, and cost of developing for one platform compared to 3.


You realize that production doesn't just mean graphics right? There's also the longer levels, the set pieces, the adjustments to enemy AI, the expansion and adjustment of the player move set. DS2 wasn't just a flashy product. It was a more advanced game.

Okay, my point still stands, greenlighting a budget of $120m+ for Dead Space 2 was a mistake by EA if they expected a decent return/profit. You can say it was ambition, or production or whatever else, but EA claimed it underperformed and presumably weren't happy. It was them that gave it the all clear at those costs and expected a profit. Either they made a mistake or their expectations should have been to be happy breaking even or not making much profit.

I'm not sure what other angle there is to argue? Your MTs to support costs got added to DS3 and failed? The IP is probably now dead as is the studio. I don't think there is much success to argue here, going on EA's expectations and projections. They mishandled it all. Dead Space should have been made on a more reasonable budget if EA were more concerned about profits. The base idea for the series would still have been a big success with gamers as horror done well usually is.

Good horror games can be appreciated on modest budgets too http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2016-09-23-soma-generates-profit-on-450k-sold

 

[meirl]

Huge Hit from MS? What about Sony? They didnt take their Cut?

 

[DrDomVonDoom]

RIP Dead Space,

That being said, common. Its basically a horror game, I don't feel Horror either in movies or games do EXCEPTIONALLY well, they don't do CoD or Assassins Creed numbers. Its a very specific market of people who go for a very specific reaction. I think most people aren't looking for that experiance, but the market that does is very vehement and protective of those experiances. Resident Evil fans for example, Silent Hill fans, or in the movie world Friday the 13th, Nightmare fans. PT was the talk of the town, for example, but how many people REALLY played it, versus just watched someone else play it?

I feel like the genre does a disservice to itself, not being as accessable and anyone thinking its gonna do these spectacular CoD numbers is just being silly.