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[Jest Chillin]

Extremely low and "didn't happen" are two different things. Also keep in mind that an extremely low percentage in WoW terms is equal to most MMO games total, and certainly more than the raiders in those games. Wrath didn't come out until the end of 2008, there weekly PuG raids in 2005. I find it hard to believe that we had the only server in the game that was doing this at the time.

Having people create PUGs to try to Raid =/= Completion. Having a tiny sliver of the population be successful with partial PUGs some of the time doesn't refute that the vast majority of PUG groups were not full clearing Raid content until Wrath. Also, WoW did not launch with 10 million+ players, so a small percentage of players in 2005 was not necessarily more than the raiders in other games.

Except raiding is endgame content, meaning anyone queuing up to do it is high-level with gear they put time into obtaining. Chances are they are aware of the requirements, so even if they are a "bunch of COD players" as you put it they still put the time into the game to get to raid status

So baffled regarding all the comments that if you form a team by matchmaking you end up with inept chimpanzees

We don't know if there's an internal system that would prevent people from trying the raid if they weren't properly geared. So I don't think it's a safe assumption just yet that people attempting the Raid would be prepared for it.

I just wanted to note that Pugs were successful in WoW since Vanilla.

Full pugs were a bit rare but partial pugs (an established guild filling out the group with randoms) was a regular occurrence from the very beginning.

And I would actually use that as a counter argument to the, "they will nerf raids and make them too easy if you allow matchmaking!"

From Molten Core to Siege of Orgrimmar (Heroic), you had less than 1% of players completing the raids. The difference now is that with LFR a greater number of players can actually see the content while the top end of WoW is as (if not more) challenging and complex as it has ever been.

Perhaps that is what Destiny needs. An easier mode for matchmaking so that people can experience the content you're making. While the harder mode will be as hardcore as you want with the absolute best rewards.
(Note that Destiny already has a normal and hard mode for each mission/strike)

The fact that Blizzard had to nerf ICC over time isn't the point I was making. It was that successful attempts by PUGs without nerfs was extremely rare. This is why LFR uses content that is much easier than the normal Raid content. Because otherwise, you're looking at complaints about difficulty akin to what was seen in early Cata.

If Bungie wants to create a lower difficulty tier for their Raids, that's up to them. But what I'm talking about is the reasoning as to why matchmaking isn't a good choice for the Raid as they're describing it now. Also, Destiny Alpha had Normal and Legend but the Beta just had Level specific missions/strike (i.e. Lvl 6 Strike or Lvl 8 Strike). Only if you were attempting a higher level version of the content than your current level was it labeled as "Hard."

 

[tranciful]

The point I was making was in reference to forming friendships in the game. This can be done with matchmaking, in strikes, or raids.

But strikes aren't raids. They're different. Strikes can be where you make friends. Raids can be where you bring friends.

 

[we.are.the.armada]

Anybody here familiar with FFXIV and its Party Finder system?

Destiny could use something like that with how social the game is. A way to find a player or to look for a recruiting party - not just for the raids but for everything.

 

[Ramocalypse]

But strikes aren't raids. They're different. Strikes can be where you make friends. Raids can be where you bring friends.

Good point, though its still restrictive. We'll see I guess, I predict pretty low raid numbers will lead to them eventually making it more accesible, I trust they will listen to feedback and act appropriately regardless.

 

[Danis]

The guys you brought with you, on your fireteam (let's say there's 5 of you), that have mics, can brainstorm and come up with solutions and maybe eventually figure it out. "Oh hey, what are these weird pillars sticking up out of the ground?? I noticed there's six of them... what if we all go stand on them at the same time and see what happens?" You go take point and meanwhile, the 6th dude, who doesn't have a mic and is jamming Green Day in the background and stuffing his face with Cheetos while you guys try to figure out what to do, isn't paying attention and can't hear you. Or even if he could hear you, you'd have to explain what you're doing to him, without him being able to talk back, and hope he understands and follows through (and consider you'd have to do this EVERY TIME your faced with one of these puzzles, which I'm sure will be more complex than I'm describing).

This. This shit right here. This is the only stuff you guys can come up with as a counter argument. "Your random will be a moron playing with his feet. He'll also be deaf and mute".. Most of the time, no he fucking won't. Do you know how many games I've played with random people that are more then "Aim and shoot" successfully? Many. Heck, Battlefield 4. I play with randoms there and I have no mic. I've been a part of some tight squads that are able to successfully flank, defend and take out heavy armor all by simply seeing what kit the other guy has and following eachother.

"B-b-b-but these are COMPLEX PUZZLES, you'll need to communicate!"

The only examples that have been given so far are pillars that all 6 need to jump across that vanish shortly after the first person jumps, and opening a door by standing on 6 pressure plates. Oh my heavens, how the fuck would I ever figure these puzzles out without a tight squad of my childhood friends . This is such a shit argument, and I really feel you all know it.

There is, literally, zero good arguments against matchmaking. But lets line them up anyway.

1. Random people will be under-equipped, under-skilled morons who play with their feet and have no mic.

The Raid will be locked until level 20, so they won't be under-equipped. They will have a really good understanding of the gameplay, since you know, they leveled twenty-freaking-times. Most players use mics. If they don't, who gives a shit. Your voice will still be booming from their television, giving suggestions and orders. Also, players going into Raid will, shockingly, be up for Raiding. Players that aren't up for it, will only join once or twice before realizing it's not for them.

2. People will complain about the difficulty curve if anyone can join through matchmaking! Bungie will nerf the Raids like WoW did!

You honestly think the only thing that will prevent people from complaining about the Raid difficulty is the fact they need to manually invite players to the group? I've got some property on the moon for sale, interested? People will complain, regardless. Now however, they'll also bitch about the difficulty of even getting into a Raiding party. Who wants to have to visit Bungie.net and comb over LFG requests until you find someone? Who wants to click and type invites over and over at the tower? Heck, even the end all be all DestinyGAF will be a massive pain in the ass. Not like you'll be able to click on the clan in the game and see available raiding parties. You'll be in the same lame ass boat as the rest of us.

3. A world renowned guild tried for 16 hours and were unable to beat it! Randoms would never stand a chance on this! Tight squads of BFFs ONLY shitlord!

Frist off, let me say again (and this thread is proof of that), there would be a ton of hightly motivated and aptly skilled players in the matchmaking pool. Thinking otherwise is just stupid. Secondly, I don't believe this for one damned second. 16 hours? Top guild? Whatever. If the number is legit, I seriously doubt that was all playtime. And if it was, holy shit, they must have been terrible at Destiny.

Look, the simple fact of the matter is, there is no good argument against matchmaking. The only thing it adds to the equation, is making it possible for people to play it without having to jump through unnecessary hoops, and it detracts nothing.

 

[Ramocalypse]

double post

 

[Doctoglethorpe]

Imagine in a 6 man raid team that a boss has 6 specific spots they need to be shot at at the same time to interrupt an instant-kill move. Each person has to have synchronous timing with the other 5 members while they shoot their assigned weak spots. If anyone fails, whole team wipes. Then the boss sends adds at them, and among the adds are suicide bombers that will guarantee kill at least one member in an explosion, so that tagged member has to get away from the others as to not get others killed in the blast, and then the other members have to go revive him. The member who does the revive gets a defense aura that allows them to distract the boss while the others flank it and take out more weak spots. Each member can only do this once during the whole fight so everyone take a turn. If somebody revives twice or misses the chance to perform the revive, nobody will be able to tank the boss and it will wipe the team. Then the boss leaps up a hill and the team has to climb disappearing steps so everyone has to be keeping pace together with varying intervals, if anyone falls they are permanently dead for the rest of the boss fight, effectively wiping team. Then you have to repeat all those steps 5 more times, with increasing difficulty. And thats just the guy at the front door.

Then to unlock the door you have to solve a puzzle that requires everyone to split up to separate locations, communicate what they see and what they are doing in order to solve the puzzle and unlock the door. This puzzle is somewhat randomly set, so every raid will be different enough that people can't just learn a position and repeat it every time they go through without communicating with the other members.

Alright, you've made it through about 15% of the raid now.

That imaginary scenario I just came up with off the top of my head is what raiding is like in a nutshell, and thats why communication is necessary, and matchmaking doesn't ensure communication, but forcing people to communicate and manually set a party does. Thats why there is no matchmaking.

If not forums and irl friends, use strike matchmaking to find good players that actually want to talk, get to know them and get together for raiding.

 

[Devilgunman]

Anybody here familiar with FFXIV and its Party Finder system?

Destiny could use something like that with how social the game is. A way to find a player or to look for a recruiting party - not just for the raids but for everything.

If Destiny raid is anything close to FFXIV raid (Coil 2 in this case), you better have static group to do it regularly. Party finder is there for static group to find someone to fill up a spot in case of some of their static members are not available. If it's a group made from totally random strangers it usually ends up with failure.

That being said, I'm disappointed that Destiny decided to go this route. I play FFXIV raid with my static group regularly and that already consume chunks of my free time in a week. If I have to get into another guild in another game, find static group, set up schedule for weekly raid, spend hours just to learn mechanic of the raid and all that crap. I don't think I will have time to do it. Bungie should make this more solo friendly and stay far away from MMO approach.

 

[Metra]

I see a lot of people blowing up about this decision (especially on the Bungie.net forums).

I think people are overreacting for one, but at the same time at least Bungie is giving everyone a heads up to plan your fireteam teammates now instead of everyone learning about it after release.

Personally I think this is a great decision. Coming from a history of hardcore raiding in WoW the game needs to have something that players have to work for, and that isn't as easy as queuing up for free loot. Finding other players to play with and creating a relationship with them is part of that. This will make the games social environment much better in that players will have to communicate in order to achieve some of the higher end gear/loot.

Hopefully the game can integrate the Clan system in-game so it becomes easier to make friends to eventually team up with for raid content. I look forward to doing this myself. Most of my friends I have on XBL today are ones I met playing Halo 2, or through the old clan system in Halo 2 days.

Look at this:

They'd still whine about not being able to get the gear because "wah wah I don't have friends/time/skill but I paid for this content so I should get it anyway." It's insane. Even with the current plans, the content isn't locked away in any way -- it just has higher requirements. They're simply not willing to meet those requirements and they expect the developers to dumb it down and cater to their needs. Don't have friends? Find friends! Play a strike mission (with matchmaking) and if you run into somebody who you did well with, send them a fucking message and see if they'd be down for raiding. Wow so hard.

What will probably end up happening is that future Destiny expansions will add more powerful gear, effectively lowering the difficulty of older raids allowing more casual players to complete them. And then they'll keep bitching about the new high end content that they don't meet the friend/time/skill requirements for and still feel entitled to it.

Guys, what people are complaining about is that Destiny does not offer (as far as I know) reliable in-game tools to form/create a raiding group. Therefore, we are forced to go, before playing the game, to forums and whatnot just to try and put together said group. If this is true, it's unquestionably a problem (or a design flaw), as it represents a major hassle to a lot of players. And those players will be, ultimately, unable to enjoy the raids - which represents, according to Luke, a very important part of the end-game content; content that these players paid for.

I mean, I think the problem here is pretty clear. If the game does not offer proper tools for the players to access it's content, then we have a game design problem. I know the hype is strong (and I am hyped too), but we need to keep our feet on the ground. If there is a problem (and, so far, the info we have about the game suggests this problem is real), we should address it. Most people here, I believe, want to have the best experience possible with this game. Nobody is "thrashing" on Destiny. Therefore, and so far, the criticism in this thread is valid (and, probably, necessary).

 

[Ramocalypse]

The funny thing is, if they referred to this content as anything but a RAID, which has so many connotations attached to it, way more people would be crying foul at the lack of matchmaking.

 

[Danis]

The funny thing is, if they referred to this content as anything but a RAID, which has so many connotations attached to it, way more people would be crying foul at the lack of matchmaking.

So much truth. Had they called the mode "Hunt", this thread would be half the size and it'd all be negative feedback for Bungie to read.

 

[Homeboyd]

This. This shit right here. This is the only stuff you guys can come up with as a counter argument. "Your random will be a moron playing with his feet. He'll also be deaf and mute".. Most of the time, no he fucking won't.

I know this is extreme, and like you guys are saying, not all people you pick up in matchmaking are going to be complete morons... I understand that.

...

Do you know how many games I've played with random people that are more then "Aim and shoot" successfully? Many. Heck, Battlefield 4. I play with randoms there and I have no mic. I've been a part of some tight squads that are able to successfully flank, defend and take out heavy armor all by simply seeing what kit the other guy has and following eachother.

Weird. It's almost like these are 2 completely different games that have nothing at all to do with eachother!

"B-b-b-but these are COMPLEX PUZZLES, you'll need to communicate!"

The only examples that have been given so far are pillars that all 6 need to jump across that vanish shortly after the first person jumps, and opening a door by standing on 6 pressure plates. Oh my heavens, how the fuck would I ever figure these puzzles out without a tight squad of my childhood friends . This is such a shit argument, and I really feel you all know it.

Underlined.

There is, literally, zero good arguments against matchmaking. But lets line them up anyway.

But, there is. I explained them in my post.

1. Random people will be under-equipped, under-skilled morons who play with their feet and have no mic.

No one. And I mean NO ONE, has said anything like this.

The Raid will be locked until level 20, so they won't be under-equipped. They will have a really good understanding of the gameplay, since you know, they leveled twenty-freaking-times. Most players use mics. If they don't, who gives a shit. Your voice will still be booming from their television, giving suggestions and orders. Also, players going into Raid will, shockingly, be up for Raiding. Players that aren't up for it, will only join once or twice before realizing it's not for them.

Again, acknowledged in my post gear won't be an issue. Please re-read my post.

2. People will complain about the difficulty curve if anyone can join through matchmaking! Bungie will nerf the Raids like WoW did!

You honestly think the only thing that will prevent people from complaining about the Raid difficulty is the fact they need to manually invite players to the group? I've got some property on the moon for sale, interested? People will complain, regardless. Now however, they'll also bitch about the difficulty of even getting into a Raiding party.

I didn't say anything about them being nerfed. I said they were trying to avoid the frustrations and headaches of possibly getting teamed up with people who aren't on the same page as you/your team and thus make completing the challenges more difficult than they need to be (or impossible, considering we don't know what the challenges of the raids are yet)... and thus souring their experience with raids altogether.

3. A world renowned guild tried for 16 hours and were unable to beat it! Randoms would never stand a chance on this! Tight squads of BFFs ONLY shitlord![/I][/B]

Frist off, let me say again (and this thread is proof of that), there would be a ton of hightly motivated and aptly skilled players in the matchmaking pool. Thinking otherwise is just stupid. Secondly, I don't believe this for one damned second. 16 hours? Top guild? Whatever. If the number is legit, I seriously doubt that was all playtime. And if it was, holy shit, they must have been terrible at Destiny.

Yeah I think they already acknowledged the 16 hour comment was a stretch... but again, not one of my points.

Look, the simple fact of the matter is, there is no good argument against matchmaking. The only thing it adds to the equation, is making it possible for people to play it without having to jump through unnecessary hoops, and it detracts nothing.

There are plenty of good arguments against it. You don't know what communication/coordination is required to complete the tasks and you don't know how often MM will team you up with someone who is able/willing to communicate with others to complete the tasks vs those who will not/cannot. Bungie likely has more data on the subject than you so my guess is they went with what is accurate vs conjecture like you're basing your argument on. "I'm SURE it won't be that hard!" "Everyone I've personally ever met in MM has been the best players in the world, they could easily handle this!"

 

[Danis]

My post was not directed at you. Your post was the one that set me off. All the points I mentioned have most certainly been brought up in this thread, multiple times. However...

...There are plenty of good arguments against it. You don't know what communication/coordination is required to complete the tasks and you don't know how often MM will team you up with someone who is able/willing to communicate with others to complete the tasks vs those who will not/cannot. Bungie likely has more data on the subject than you so my guess is they went with what is accurate vs conjecture like you're basing your argument on. "I'm SURE it won't be that hard!" "Everyone I've personally ever met in MM has been the best players in the world, they could easily handle this!"

The ONLY good argument against it. But guess what, it's not even a good argument.

Scenario 1: You are at the tower. Fireteam of 4 ready to go. Need two more players. Desperately search for someone holding still long enough to click on them and send a message. Finally send an invite. No reply. Try 7 more times on 7 different people. No luck. So you head to Bungie.net forums. Search the LFG posts to find someone who is currently looking for a raiding party. After searching the forums (all the while the other 3 members of your fireteam are just staring at their television screens..) you find two people to join your fireteam. Yes! Finally! 6 players! You get into the raid, players 5 and 6 are idiots. The Raid fails miserably. You quit the game because no way in hell you're going through that again.

Scenario 2: Fireteam of 4 ready to go. Need two more players. Join Raid matchmaking, coupled with two other players. You get into the raid, players 5 and 6 are idiots. The Raid fails miserably. You quit and rejoin matchmaking. You're coupled instantly with two new players.

Do you see how it's common sense to include it? You can't be THIS blind.

 

[Surbii]

Matchmaking would be better for finding decent players than internet forums because you actually get to see people perform.

 

[Homeboyd]

My post was not directed at you. Your post was the one that set me off. All the points I mentioned have most certainly been brought up in this thread, multiple times. However...

The ONLY good argument against it. But guess what, it's not even a good argument.

Scenario 1: You are at the tower. Fireteam of 4 ready to go. Need two more players. Desperately search for someone holding still long enough to click on them and send a message. Finally send an invite. No reply. Try 7 more times on 7 different people. No luck. So you head to Bungie.net forums. Find two people to join your fireteam. Yes! Finally! 6 players! You get into the raid, players 5 and 6 are idiots. The Raid fails miserably. You quit the game because no way in hell you're going through that again.

Scenario 2: Fireteam of 4 ready to go. Need two more players. Join Raid matchmaking, coupled with two other players. You get into the raid, players 5 and 6 are idiots. The Raid fails miserably. You quit and rejoin matchmaking. You're coupled instantly with two new players.

Do you see how it's common sense to include it? You can't be THIS blind.

Well, I mean clearly I'm not blind... I'm reading/responding to your posts

Scenario 2 sounds great! Except if the first hour or so of the raid is simply aim and shoot exercises which don't require communication/etc... and your two buddies are able to make it that far. Then after an hour, you get to a puzzle that requires you to complete it before you get to the next "phase" with a checkpoint. In your words, not mine, "players 5 & 6 are idiots" can't figure out what to do or communicate with you on what the team should try, the raid fails miserably, you quit and rejoin matchmaking... and guess what?! Another hour to get back to where you were before!

You can't possibly think Bungie hasn't sat and thought about these scenarios, right? I mean, considering they know the challenges the raids offer and we don't...?

Oh and by the way, scenario 1 is something no one wants you to do either. People may resort to it.. but they STILL don't want you finding players even this way. Find people you KNOW will work with you/your team, have mics, etc...

 

[Ramocalypse]

Scenario 1: You are at the tower. Fireteam of 4 ready to go. Need two more players. Desperately search for someone holding still long enough to click on them and send a message. Finally send an invite. No reply. Try 7 more times on 7 different people. No luck. So you head to Bungie.net forums. Search the LFG posts to find someone who is currently looking for a raiding party. After searching the forums (all the while the other 3 members of your fireteam are just staring at their television screens..) you find two people to join your fireteam. Yes! Finally! 6 players! You get into the raid, players 5 and 6 are idiots. The Raid fails miserably. You quit the game because no way in hell you're going through that again.

Scenario 2: Fireteam of 4 ready to go. Need two more players. Join Raid matchmaking, coupled with two other players. You get into the raid, players 5 and 6 are idiots. The Raid fails miserably. You quit and rejoin matchmaking. You're coupled instantly with two new players.

Yeah, unfortunately this is the scenario I see more often than not. I don't see why people see having this as an option is that negative in any way. No one is forcing bungie to cave and make the content easier, or force you to use matchmaking. This is only going to dissuade people from raiding. Anyone who has ANY interest in raiding should want it to be accessible, so that it gets support. This really smells of elitism to me...

 

[synce]

Kind of dumb, since people without friends are still going to play with randoms. It only adds the hassle of finding them through forums instead of the game itself

 

[Danis]

Scenario 2 sounds great! Except if the first hour or so of the raid is simply aim and shoot exercises which don't require communication/etc... and your two buddies are able to make it that far. Then after an hour, you get to a puzzle that requires you to complete it before you get to the next "phase" with a checkpoint. In your words, not mine, "players 5 & 6 are idiots" can't figure out what to do or communicate with you on what the team should try, the raid fails miserably, you quit and rejoin matchmaking... and guess what?! Another hour to get back to where you were before!.

This is another lame argument. You know what the first thing my fireteam would do with the randoms would be? "Hey, buddy, you got a mic? You up for this? Going to require us to work together, no lone wolf stuff, alright?". How hard is that? No hour wasted.

To answer the inevitable rebuttal, "What if he has a mic and says he's going to cooperate, but doesn't". Well guess what, that could happen from a Tower invite, a B.net user or a member of DestinyGaf.

 

[Metra]

Matchmaking would be better for finding decent players than internet forums because you actually get to see people perform.

Even if there isn't public matchmaking available for raids (which people can agree or disagree with), there should be, at least, some easy way to create/join a raid group with your clan members; or, if you don't have a clan, there should exist some way to show to other players that you are looking for a raid group. But, apparently, the only way to form raid groups are: a) inviting friends from your XBL/PSN friends list; b) manual matchmaking in the tower; c) manual matchmaking in the internet (via forums, like gaf).

 

[Homeboyd]

This is another lame argument. You know what the first thing my fireteam would do with the randoms would be? "Hey, buddy, you got a mic? You up for this? Going to require us to work together, no lone wolf stuff, alright?". How hard is that? No hour wasted.

To answer the inevitable rebuttal, "What if he has a mic and says he's going to cooperate, but doesn't". Well guess what, that could happen from a Tower invite, a B.net user or a member of DestinyGaf.

People keep bringing up the fact that b/c Bungie isn't offering matchmaking, they're going to have to go to the tower, forums, etc... to play the raid. They don't want you doing this either. You're making my point for me. Don't go pick up random people from the tower, GAF, etc... they don't want you to pick up people you don't know for this regardless if it was through matchmaking or manual searching on your part.

You do understand what I'm saying right? You keep telling me why manual searches are no better than matchmaking. AGREED! Bungie obviously does too! They're saying don't go picking up random people you don't know to run raids with. Yes, you CAN do it... but they're advising against it. Again, find people you KNOW.

Seeing as it's end-game content, you'll likely have met a bunch of players on your journey that you've run strikes/crucible with who you feel CAN help you when you get to this point. Invite THEM.

 

[frequency]

The fact that Blizzard had to nerf ICC over time isn't the point I was making. It was that successful attempts by PUGs without nerfs was extremely rare. This is why LFR uses content that is much easier than the normal Raid content. Because otherwise, you're looking at complaints about difficulty akin to what was seen in early Cata.

If Bungie wants to create a lower difficulty tier for their Raids, that's up to them. But what I'm talking about is the reasoning as to why matchmaking isn't a good choice for the Raid as they're describing it now. Also, Destiny Alpha had Normal and Legend but the Beta just had Level specific missions/strike (i.e. Lvl 6 Strike or Lvl 8 Strike). Only if you were attempting a higher level version of the content than your current level was it labeled as "Hard."

People raiding in general were extremely rare. Of the raiding population, a significant amount of them were random pick ups. It is not rare at all within the raiding communities to fill out groups with randoms.

But with tools that allowed more people to get into raiding (LFR, Flex), the raiding population has actually grown. People who couldn't get in before never bothered. But now after seeing it, they're more likely to seek higher levels of play. I feel it is in the best interest of everyone involved (casuals, hardcores, Bungie) to have some level of introductory raiding to encourage participation.

Casuals get more content. Hardcores get more content (more people playing means Bungie can justify further support of this game type). Bungie gets more people experiencing their hard work and becoming invested in their game longer term.

Whether that is matchmaking or not, I don't know. But I feel the current state is unsatisfactory and something should be done.

While I appreciate that Bungie has their idea of what is and isn't appropriate for pick up groups based on their designs and internal data, I don't have blind faith in them (or any company) to necessarily know what's best. And so I think there is value in these discussions if they are paying attention so that they can see that perhaps they could be underestimating their player base.

It is not a rare thing for a developer to make the wrong decision because they misread their potential player base.

I think there is less values in statements of, "No Bungie, you're perfect! Don't listen to criticism and feedback to design decisions!"
(Not that I am accusing you or anyone of such an extreme statement)

 

[Ramocalypse]

People keep bringing up the fact that b/c Bungie isn't offering matchmaking, they're going to have to go to the tower, forums, etc... to play the raid. They don't want you doing this either. You're making my point for me. Don't go pick up random people from the tower, GAF, etc... they don't want you to pick up people you don't know for this regardless if it was through matchmaking or manual searching on your part.

You do understand what I'm saying right? You keep telling me why manual searches are no better than matchmaking. AGREED! Bungie obviously does too! They're saying don't go picking up random people you don't know to run raids with. Yes, you CAN do it... but they're advising against it. Again, find people you KNOW.

Seeing as it's end-game content, you'll likely have met a bunch of players on your journey that you've run strikes/crucible with who you feel CAN help you when you get to this point. Invite THEM.

Well you can forget about much support for future raids then, because hardly anyone is going to be playing them. Again, this whole RAID concept is swaying towards elitism, and not in a good way.

 

[Major Williams]

I want to play raids, but I'm a bit worried about the amount of time some of these may take. I play up to 2 -2.5 hours in one sitting, but I rarely sync up with my friends except once a month. I'm worried a Raid will take longer than that, and with kids, this news is kind of frustrating.

 

[KillerDark]

Well you can forget about much support for future raids then, because hardly anyone is going to be playing them. Again, this whole RAID concept is swaying towards elitism, and not in a good way.

Exactly. If most players can't experience it then there is going to be little reason for Bungie to design more raids. Why support a mode that only a very small percentage of players see, instead of more story/strikes/crucible maps which the vast majority of the player base will get to use (which keeps them interested in the game longer)?

 

[Danis]

You do understand what I'm saying right? You keep telling me why manual searches are no better than matchmaking. AGREED! Bungie obviously does too! They're saying don't go picking up random people you don't know to run raids with. Yes, you CAN do it... but they're advising against it. Again, find people you KNOW.

Dude, seriously? You're serious, aren't you. Okay. I'll bite.

How many players do you think that will own Destiny, will have at lest 5 friends on their friends list, that will be dedicated enough to play a Raid and will have the availability and matching schedules to tackle it?

Random people are required to fill in the blanks for a very large sum of individuals. Which brings me to another point. Bungie did this to themselves. The numbers 3 and 6 are found, literally, NOWHERE in modern co-op gaming. So we've all been building our fireteams for years. But guess what, those numbers aren't 3 or 6. It's fucking 4. GG, Bungie.

If this is the "way it's intended", Bungie is in for a rude awakening when the Raids fail miserably.

 

[Surbii]

Seeing as it's end-game content, you'll likely have met a bunch of players on your journey that you've run strikes/crucible with who you feel CAN help you when you get to this point. Invite THEM.

So randoms in raids would be bad enough to omit matchmaking. But randoms we find earlier are supposed to be good enough?

 

[unbias]

Well, I mean clearly I'm not blind... I'm reading/responding to your posts

Scenario 2 sounds great! Except if the first hour or so of the raid is simply aim and shoot exercises which don't require communication/etc... and your two buddies are able to make it that far. Then after an hour, you get to a puzzle that requires you to complete it before you get to the next "phase" with a checkpoint. In your words, not mine, "players 5 & 6 are idiots" can't figure out what to do or communicate with you on what the team should try, the raid fails miserably, you quit and rejoin matchmaking... and guess what?! Another hour to get back to where you were before!

You can't possibly think Bungie hasn't sat and thought about these scenarios, right? I mean, considering they know the challenges the raids offer and we don't...?

Oh and by the way, scenario 1 is something no one wants you to do either. People may resort to it.. but they STILL don't want you finding players even this way. Find people you KNOW will work with you/your team, have mics, etc...

I think you are underestimating FPS players and comparing them to MMO players. FPSs games inherently require more skill and as such from my experience FPS players normally pay a lot more attention then your run of the mill MMO player. People get a distorted view of MMO difficulty because of having to get so many people together and coordinate well. With Destiny the amount of players you need is small, and the idea of "being top DPS" I highly doubt will hold as much weight as it does in a MMO.

Also from my experience playing MMO's since EQ(or any multiplayer genre not a MMO) mmo players are just not that great at games by comparison(I think this has to do with hand eye coordination not being as demanding). I honestly dont think you will have as much trouble finding 3-6 competent people to run something in Destiny like you can have issues in MMO's.

 

[mcfrank]

I think you are underestimating FPS players and comparing them to MMO players. FPSs games inherently require more skill and as such from my experience FPS players normally pay a lot more attention then your run of the mill MMO player. People get a distorted view of MMO difficulty because of having to get so many people together and coordinate well. With Destiny the amount of players you need is small, and the idea of "being top DPS" I highly doubt will hold as much weight as it does in a MMO.

Also from my experience playing MMO's since EQ(or any multiplayer genre not a MMO) mmo players are just not that great at games by comparison(I think this has to do with hand eye coordination not being as demanding). I honestly dont think you will have as much trouble finding 3-6 competent people to run something in Destiny like you can have issues in MMO's.

I think you are quite wrong on that front. Maybe more controller skill to play at the lowest level, but hard core raiding in an MMO is way more challenging than anything in any FPS I have played.

 

[tranciful]

Good point, though its still restrictive. We'll see I guess, I predict pretty low raid numbers will lead to them eventually making it more accesible, I trust they will listen to feedback and act appropriately regardless.

It's supposed to be restrictive. High end content wouldn't be high end if everybody was able to do it. That's the whole point -- create something specifically for the more dedicated playerbase. It fits a different role than the rest of the content in Destiny.

 

[Danis]

So randoms in raids would be bad enough to omit matchmaking. But randoms we find earlier are supposed to be good enough?

Booya.

I want to play raids, but I'm a bit worried about the amount of time some of these may take. I play up to 2 -2.5 hours in one sitting, but I rarely sync up with my friends except once a month. I'm worried a Raid will take longer than that, and with kids, this news is kind of frustrating.

The good news is that the Raid progress is saved for 7 days. So if you can get your buddies together twice in a week (which may be hard) and you can commit 2-2/5 hours each time, you're at 4-5 hours total. That may be enough.

 

[cyrok]

I'm sure this isn't a cross-platform multiplayer, so the real question is what console are you guys going to be purchasing the game for?

for myself its PS4

 

[Ramocalypse]

It's supposed to be restrictive. High end content wouldn't be high end if everybody was able to do it. That's the whole point -- create something specifically for the more dedicated playerbase. It fits a different role than the rest of the content in Destiny.

Except they are restricting people from even trying it. Let the dedicated players thrive in it, and perhaps even let them teach "randoms" (this shouldnt feel like a dirty word, but this thread man... lol) how to succeed. No reason for the barrier except bungie being afraid that people will think its too hard. This could be communicated so much better to the player base about the level of difficulty. Let players make up their own minds.

 

[Overdoziz]

green:shake:scroll: Need 2 for raid lvl 20+ ~~Overdoziz~~
Make it happen Bungie.

 

[Homeboyd]

Dude, seriously? You're serious, aren't you. Okay. I'll bite.

How many players do you think that will own Destiny, will have at lest 5 friends on their friends list, that will be dedicated enough to play a Raid and will have the availability and matching schedules to tackle it?

Random people are required to fill in the blanks for a very large sum of individuals. Which brings me to another point. Bungie did this to themselves. The numbers 3 and 6 are found, literally, NOWHERE in modern co-op gaming. So we've all been building our fireteams for years. But guess what, those numbers aren't 3 or 6. It's fucking 4. GG, Bungie.

If this is the "way it's intended", Bungie is in for a rude awakening when the Raids fail miserably.

Well sure, if you think your FL right now looks the same as it will when you're ready for a raid, then ok. You don't think you'll meet any players along the way who you'll believe can handle the content and thus invite when you're ready. I don't mean invite people you know in real life... invite players you've met along the way (who were at one point random players) but you've gotten to know to help you. It isn't difficult to understand.

So randoms in raids would be bad enough to omit matchmaking. But randoms we find earlier are supposed to be good enough?

See above. All of your friends on Live or whatever were at one point "randoms" but once you've had the chance to play with them and become friends with them... that status changes. My point is (and it appears theirs is too), don't invite people you don't know to do these raids. Yes, as you're leveling up to 20 (and beyond), you'll come across random players. Some you'll like, who are good players, interested in raiding/etc.. will commit to the time it takes to complete these, have mics, willing to be a part of the team/etc.. and some won't. Bring the guys in column A along with you... you know them now. They aren't random players anymore. Again, it isn't JUST about skill.

 

[Sai-kun]

This. This shit right here. This is the only stuff you guys can come up with as a counter argument. "Your random will be a moron playing with his feet. He'll also be deaf and mute".. Most of the time, no he fucking won't. Do you know how many games I've played with random people that are more then "Aim and shoot" successfully? Many. Heck, Battlefield 4. I play with randoms there and I have no mic. I've been a part of some tight squads that are able to successfully flank, defend and take out heavy armor all by simply seeing what kit the other guy has and following eachother.

"B-b-b-but these are COMPLEX PUZZLES, you'll need to communicate!"

The only examples that have been given so far are pillars that all 6 need to jump across that vanish shortly after the first person jumps, and opening a door by standing on 6 pressure plates. Oh my heavens, how the fuck would I ever figure these puzzles out without a tight squad of my childhood friends . This is such a shit argument, and I really feel you all know it.

There is, literally, zero good arguments against matchmaking. But lets line them up anyway.

1. Random people will be under-equipped, under-skilled morons who play with their feet and have no mic.

The Raid will be locked until level 20, so they won't be under-equipped. They will have a really good understanding of the gameplay, since you know, they leveled twenty-freaking-times. Most players use mics. If they don't, who gives a shit. Your voice will still be booming from their television, giving suggestions and orders. Also, players going into Raid will, shockingly, be up for Raiding. Players that aren't up for it, will only join once or twice before realizing it's not for them.

2. People will complain about the difficulty curve if anyone can join through matchmaking! Bungie will nerf the Raids like WoW did!

You honestly think the only thing that will prevent people from complaining about the Raid difficulty is the fact they need to manually invite players to the group? I've got some property on the moon for sale, interested? People will complain, regardless. Now however, they'll also bitch about the difficulty of even getting into a Raiding party. Who wants to have to visit Bungie.net and comb over LFG requests until you find someone? Who wants to click and type invites over and over at the tower? Heck, even the end all be all DestinyGAF will be a massive pain in the ass. Not like you'll be able to click on the clan in the game and see available raiding parties. You'll be in the same lame ass boat as the rest of us.

3. A world renowned guild tried for 16 hours and were unable to beat it! Randoms would never stand a chance on this! Tight squads of BFFs ONLY shitlord!

Frist off, let me say again (and this thread is proof of that), there would be a ton of hightly motivated and aptly skilled players in the matchmaking pool. Thinking otherwise is just stupid. Secondly, I don't believe this for one damned second. 16 hours? Top guild? Whatever. If the number is legit, I seriously doubt that was all playtime. And if it was, holy shit, they must have been terrible at Destiny.

Look, the simple fact of the matter is, there is no good argument against matchmaking. The only thing it adds to the equation, is making it possible for people to play it without having to jump through unnecessary hoops, and it detracts nothing.

ughhhhhhhhhhhh god im so in love with this user

 

[tranciful]

So randoms in raids would be bad enough to omit matchmaking. But randoms we find earlier are supposed to be good enough?

If you practice and gear up as a group for the raid (as intended by their design), then yes. There's no time to practice and coordinate builds if you find them right before the raid. That's the whole point of raids -- offer challenges that go beyond the capabilities of random players that meet through matchmaking to reward the players that go above and beyond the typical player.

Except they are restricting people from even trying it. Let the dedicated players thrive in it, and perhaps even let them teach "randoms" (this shouldnt feel like a dirty word, but this thread man... lol) how to succeed. No reason for the barrier except bungie being afraid that people will think its too hard. This could be communicated so much better to the player base about the level of difficulty. Let players make up their own minds.

No they aren't. There's nothing stopping you from making friends.

 

[BokehKing]

I remember hearing there will be platform jumping, what if we need to all jump at the same time, Idk, I'm also up for matchmaking for the first raid once the second one comes out



BTW, Deej said on Guardian Radio that the 16 hour number is a myth, I'll find the exact quote

 

[KillerDark]

If you practice and gear up as a group for the raid (as intended by their design), then yes. There's no time to practice and coordinate builds if you find them right before the raid.



No, there's nothing stopping you from making friends.

It's not hard to switch builds/abilities, you can easily do that at almost any time. There is no way this is going to require such precise coordination that it can only be done with a tight group of friends, Bungie is over hyping that for sure. There is quite a bit stopping you from making friends in Destiny, the social side of things is extremely lacking.

 

[unbias]

I think you are quite wrong on that front. Maybe more controller skill to play at the lowest level, but hard core raiding in an MMO is way more challenging than anything in any FPS I have played.

Not to me personally, and I've raiding on a lot of MMO's. I think the difficulty is getting so many people together who dont struggle with simple mechanics. MMO's are difficulty because of the amount of people who need to work together and not mess up(specially with a trinity system). If MMO's were built around 3-8 people, "hard" content would be cleared a hell of a lot faster. The hardest part about MMO's is gearing up for a fight, after that not so much.

 

[Surbii]

See above. All of your friends on Live or whatever were at one point "randoms" but once you've had the chance to play with them and become friends with them... that status changes. My point is (and it appears theirs is too), don't invite people you don't know to do these raids. Yes, as you're leveling up to 20 (and beyond), you'll come across random players. Some you'll like, who are good players, interested in raiding/etc.. will commit to the time it takes to complete these, have mics, willing to be a part of the team/etc.. and some won't. Bring the guys in column A along with you... you know them now. They aren't random players anymore. Again, it isn't JUST about skill.

My point is that if you can find randoms elsewhere, you can find them in raid matchmaking. I'd rather waste time trying to find players while playing raids than waste time trying to find players "manually".

 

[Homeboyd]

My point is that if you can find randoms elsewhere, you can find them in raid matchmaking. I'd rather waste time trying to find players while playing raids than waste time trying to find players "manually".

Of course! But finding/meeting them seconds before a raid is about to start is a LOT different than meeting them at Level 3 in explore mode. You do see the difference right?

 

[tranciful]

It's not hard to switch builds/abilities, you can easily do that at almost any time.

What if raids require the boost you get from locking your build?

There is quite a bit stopping you from making friends in Destiny, the social side of things is extremely lacking.

What's so hard about messaging someone after a successful strike mission?

There is no way this is going to require such precise coordination that it can only be done with a tight group of friends, Bungie is over hyping that for sure.

So the argument has been reduced to "Bungie is lying and they're leaving out matchmaking because reasons!"

I'm out. You guys are silly.

 

[Highlaw]

So now you're talking iLvl only.. when originally you said..



That will never be instant because it has to check confirm all of these stats with people online currently that are not engaged in an activity at that specific moment in time. And it needs to do that for every. single. person or persons. that's looking queued for Raids.



This is why you'd add people to your friends list that you play well with. You know.. like people do in MMO's currently.



This is exactly what Bungie.net was redesigned to facilitate. Players don't need a specific forum like GAF when Bungie's entire website is dedicated to it.



Again.. your Gear Score argument is not what you originally presented at all. And it doesn't matter how fast a computer is at math, the search algorithm would have to check confirm all of those things with people who are online and available. It's not nearly as quick as you think.




Is it really that difficult a task to add friends? Because people do it all the time in every MP game imaginable.

Look, I understand that matchmaking is quick and easy. It's super convenient because you don't have to do anything, talk to anyone, or make any effort at all. Join a queue and wait for the game to populate itself. That's not conducive to consisten teamwork and unifed goals. Which is what a Raid is designed to facilitate.




Bungie.net and the Bungie mobile apps are being pushed super hard for a reason.

I used a bad term. It's not instant just like MP matchmaking isn't instant, but it's not longer than 3~ minutes, much shorter than looking for other people.

I stated what I meant by "competence", it's gear level + raid stats (Bungie has them, an algorithm can be made). This is just a score given to each player doesn't take time at all, it's already there before you enter matchmaking.

The other preferences aren't complex at all. Heck, Halo Reach had evem more options (a lot of them subjective and unnecessary) and it still worked. Having an on/off option for Mic-only and Regional would help with the communication problem, and if queues are taking too long you could turn off the "Regional players" option if you are ok about speaking english with foreigners.

That will never be instant because it has to check confirm all of these stats with people online currently that are not engaged in an activity at that specific moment in time. And it needs to do that for every. single. person or persons. that's looking queued for Raids.

Just like any other MMO, you can enter the queue while doing anything, like being in explore mode or playing a story mission, you wouldn't need to be standing in the Tower doing nothin'

And yes matchmaking does it for "every. single. person." technology is amazing, huh? I bet you can make it sound like an impossible task for multiplayer matchmaking too!

It actually automaticaly checks from a huge pool the players that are closest to you in game progression and use mics (if you turned on that search option). Instead of nothing being there and you PMing people about their gear, achievements, and availability for a good half hour.

This is exactly what Bungie.net was redesigned to facilitate. Players don't need a specific forum like GAF when Bungie's entire website is dedicated to it.

How about making it in-game? Bad design is bad. There could be an NPC much like the bounty tracker, where you post your character with the relevant stats and other people would only need to go there and add you up, in-game. Even without matchmaking this would be a better option to forum hunting (that or adding any sort of chat)

Is it really that difficult a task to add friends? Because people do it all the time in every MP game imaginable.

Look, I understand that matchmaking is quick and easy. It's super convenient because you don't have to do anything, talk to anyone, or make any effort at all. Join a queue and wait for the game to populate itself. That's not conducive to consisten teamwork and unifed goals. Which is what a Raid is designed to facilitate.

I'm repeating myself but it's a good example. How could high rank competitive LoL matchmaking ever work? It requires teamwork, trust in other people and coordination. It works and it's fast. For the most part you don't need a lot of communication, a few pings here and there are enough, even though the game is complex, everyone knows what to do. The same will happen to destiny. In the beggining there'll be a lot of wipes, but as time goes on more people are experienced in raiding. In a month or two everyone will know what to do.

Bungie shouldn't be the one telling us "It's too hard, we're keeping you safe" that decision should be up to each on of us.

There is even another matchmaking option in League where you choose one of 100+ characters, one of 5 positions, and one of 6(?) roles, before entering matchmaking - that's a lot of variables. That for every team member, and you find a group within 10 seconds. I don't see why Raid MM in destiny would be slow when roles/positions aren't a factor. The only thing it needs to check for is people with the same progression as you (aka similar gear) and whichever option you turned on, like mics and regional. That's all.

For those who love to gather forum friends, like you, the option is still there. I'll do the same in the beggining. But after a while I'll lean towards MM, the option should be there

 

[KillerDark]

What's so hard about messaging someone after a successful strike mission?

Whats so bad/hard about having matchmaking so it doesn't have to be an antiquated manual process? Randoms you find online/on forums have just as much of a chance of being bad as anyone else.

So the argument has been reduced to "Bungie is lying and they're leaving out matchmaking because they're mean!"

No there are plenty of valid arguments, but why choose to respond to those right?

 

[Surbii]

Of course! But finding/meeting them seconds before a raid is about to start is a LOT different than meeting them at Level 3 in explore mode. You do see the difference right?

Yes but I thought my second sentence of my last post addressed this.

 

[bigDave]

ye, i want a ingame message/invite system... it's annoying everytime waiting for psn page to load...

 

[Homeboyd]

Yes but I thought my second sentence of my last post addressed this.

Sorry, which post/sentence? I'm replying to several people here.

 

[aristotle]

You can definitely tell the difference from posters who have played raids before and those who haven't. It seems that everyone who is crying foul over this thinks that they'll always find a good PUG to play with. Even getting simple dungeons done in WoW is an exercise in futility.

Hell let them turn on matchmaking in Destiny. I want to see people eat crow thinking that they'll easily beat a raid. I had a hell of a time just finding people smart enough to fire at the legs on the strike miniboss. I can't count the number of times my group had 2 morons run up to the mech and try to blast him down toe-to-toe. This is even after I told the group for over 10 minutes to take him out systematically. Random people don't listen, especially when it comes to any FPS type of game. Everyone wants to be a lone wolf thanks to CoD.

Opening up the raids to everyone through matchmaking will be a complete clusterfuck. Those who don't believe that are deluded. If you truly want to see what those of us who are ok with this raid, go into WoW and try to get a decent group together for a raid or even a heroic. Good luck

 

[Doctoglethorpe]

Theres nothing really wrong with raiding with random people. The problem is trying to raid with random people who don't communicate. Consoles are full of that. In PC MMOs everyone can easily communicate via integrated text chat. Even then, most raiding parties require voice chat at least to listen to directions. Destiny doesn't have integrated text chat, and a lot of people either dont use mics or sit in party chats. This poses an issue for console raiding that isn't present on PC.

Again, the requirement of manual assembly is effectively the tool in which players find others who communicate. It requires communication just to assemble the team, assuring everyone meets that requirement right from the start. Automated matchmaking can't do that.

Like a messiah I come to thee with thine answer...

What Bungie should do is create a social hub like the Tower specifically for people looking for raiding groups (and maybe nightfall groups as well?). Or at least a lobby you can talk in. A place where theres nothing to do but start up the raids, so you know everyone you find there wants the same thing you do. It would be a place where you send people messages and invite them to a party, but not an area that automatically sets it up for you because you first need to confirm that person is willing to talk while they raid, and to make sure your schedules align. You form the party in that hub or lobby, and then walk through a door together to start the raid. Or everyone sets "ready" in the lobby. Or something to that effect. I suspect this is what the Vanguard zone already is.

 

[Uthred]

That imaginary scenario I just came up with off the top of my head is what raiding is like in a nutshell, and thats why communication is necessary, and matchmaking doesn't ensure communication, but forcing people to communicate and manually set a party does. Thats why there is no matchmaking.

If not forums and irl friends, use strike matchmaking to find good players that actually want to talk, get to know them and get together for raiding.

Matchmaking may not ensure communication but it certainly doesnt preclude or necessarily hinder it, this bizarre narrative of "Stranger Danger" that people are propagating is just sad