mdsfx
Member
Yep, it's polarized as hell. Interviewed for a job there. Having lived in Chicago for 10 years, all I could think was "fuck this place."
Side note: I'm "white" (half Mexican but don't look the part)
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Detroit Seems Very White and That's Kind of Deal Breaker for Me
- Thread starter Wanda/Wander
- Start date
Side note: I'm "white" (half Mexican but don't look the part)
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
Thing is, in Detroit right now, black people are not in the minority. That's probably part of what prompted OP to have these thoughts in the first place. Obviously as discussed later, the game paints a different looking future of the city, but it would still feel really off if all the available playable characters would be white IMO.
mdsfx
Member
Maybe not in number, but they are in terms of social class
nintendork666
Member
As a former Detroit resident, and current suburb dweller, I couldn't agree more with OP's sentiment from what we've seen of the game. Even Deus Ex HR seemed white-washed to me (excellent game though).
DarkConfidant
Member
Yeah, as a black Detroiter, it's very strange to see our city look nothing like our city.
We're also majority black city, and one of the, if not the, most segregated metropolitan areas in the USA.
I'll wait until I see more of the game before I pass judgment though.
EDIT: It's awesome to see how many people from the 313 are on GAF. For some reason I assumed you were all from California, or Flyover Nowhere.
We're also majority black city, and one of the, if not the, most segregated metropolitan areas in the USA.
I'll wait until I see more of the game before I pass judgment though.
EDIT: It's awesome to see how many people from the 313 are on GAF. For some reason I assumed you were all from California, or Flyover Nowhere.
zackmorris
Member
Ok, then don't play it.
How do we know what the content of the final game will be. In the OP you allude that there are 3 playable characters, a male, a female have been shown and an unannounced one that could be anything at this point.
How do we know what the content of the final game will be. In the OP you allude that there are 3 playable characters, a male, a female have been shown and an unannounced one that could be anything at this point.
What? OPs point is that all those white people In Detroit aren't accurate. Detroit is 83% black people so blacks aren't the minority in the city. He's complaining that they're trynna white wash an entire city in a video game and that it should be more accurate to the real world, or they should've choose a mostly white city. It's like the game being set in Northern Africa with white villagers.
Ploid 3.0
Member
Is there a video of him watching the trailer or was it just a picture?
R_thanatos
Member
How would it show , we had a few minutes of trailer footage so far?
How can you judge with only such limited amount of information ?
Spring Drive
Banned
From my experiences in downtown Detroit, I definitely see more white than black. Maybe 40% or lower black? It really depends on where you go, but I think it's more the area surrounding the actual business area that's predominately black. I once lived maybe 45 minutes away and in the area and most to the south it is majority black.
AmuroChan
Member
Also not accurate is that there are a bunch of androids running around Detroit. As far as I know the demographic in Detroit is 100% humans and 0% androids. So right off the bat the concept of the game is already not representative of Detroit.
Dyson Industries
Banned
So it's ok to have unrealistic representation because the premise is fantasy?
I'm certainly looking forward to using this argument the next time some man-baby complains that having minorities in Witcher 3/Dragon Age/whatever isn't realistic.
Idiots.
Spring Drive
Banned
So it's ok to have unrealistic representation because the premise is fantasy?
I'm certainly looking forward to using this argument the next time some man-baby complains that having minorities in Witcher 3/Dragon Age/whatever isn't realistic.
Idiots.
Unrelated, but that's a nice tag
SimplyOlivia
Banned
People need to realise that it's a fictitious re-imagining of a futuristic Detroit.
It's not 'Detroit - that place where a ton of black people live'
It's not like there aren't any black people being represented by the trailers because there is.
It's not 'Detroit - that place where a ton of black people live'
It's not like there aren't any black people being represented by the trailers because there is.
Yeah, unless Detroit has a scene like this
This game really reminds me of this show, "Äkta människor". Should probably start watching the english adaption cause the swedish show is canceled I think
Yeah, I feel like a lot of the people commenting here aren't aware of the actual demographics of Detroit. I know I wasn't until I looked it up.
80% of the population of Detroit is black.
Like, that's a pretty serious omission if you end up only having a handful of non-white characters, and it seems like the kind of mistake that could easily happen when you have a developer from another country choosing a setting for symbolic purposes without really knowing much about the actual city.
Ploid 3.0
Member
Awesome, thanks for the link.
Yeah it was always egregious whenever the trailers continued to center Whiteness.
And David Cage & Co. can be quite bad when it comes to non-White and non-American people:
And now we of course have Kara and Connor, the two White people in the center of a narrative about oppression in Detroit. Maybe it'll get better with more reveals, we'll see.
And David Cage & Co. can be quite bad when it comes to non-White and non-American people:
- Navajo people in BTS is offensively stereotypical and mischaracterizes actual Navajo culture. Simple research could have avoided that.
- The CIA mission in Somali similarly relies on racist imagery of Somali people, in which White Americans invade and kill without much reflection.
- The Middle Eastern chapter also relies on stereotypes where no one in the mission gets any dialogue or representation
- Then of course the black mechanic in Heavy Rain that you, OP, mentioned
And now we of course have Kara and Connor, the two White people in the center of a narrative about oppression in Detroit. Maybe it'll get better with more reveals, we'll see.
The game doesn't take place in the neighborhoods. If you go downtown right now it will not appear to you as being 80% black, and gentrification is well underway, causing more and more people of color to be driven from the downtown/midtown areas. 20 years from now this will not be some majorly inaccurate portrayal.
Why do I keep returning to this thread ugh. There isn't even a diversity problem with this game. Watch the year-old trailer that didn't center on 3 white characters from a single incident in the game.
Also the white flight was real, it happened, all those white people still exist, and if Detroit became the Android manufacturing and production capital of the world? They would come back. Everyone would come there. The city as a whole would prosper. Over a million people would return to fill it up, and at that point I doubt it would still be 80% black. This is all so knee-jerk.
Chronospherics
Member
I didn't understand what you meant until I considered the statistics. 84% of Detroit's population is black.
Something to bear in mind is that in Europe, we have no where near that percentage of non-Caucasian populations. My town has less than a less than 1% black population. I think in some cases this can create a disconnection with the how ethnicity is represented in the rest of the world.
That doesn't necessarily stem from any racist or malicious intent though, but I guess if it's your job to research a city to feature your game in, it should be pretty apparent that most of the people there are of a certain ethnicity.
Either way, I doubt it will sully my enjoyment of the game. I don't tend to think about race or whatnot when I play games, I really couldn't care less what the skin colour of the Android's are. The Android's in Alien Isolation are all white too, I didn't think much of it.
Something to bear in mind is that in Europe, we have no where near that percentage of non-Caucasian populations. My town has less than a less than 1% black population. I think in some cases this can create a disconnection with the how ethnicity is represented in the rest of the world.
That doesn't necessarily stem from any racist or malicious intent though, but I guess if it's your job to research a city to feature your game in, it should be pretty apparent that most of the people there are of a certain ethnicity.
Either way, I doubt it will sully my enjoyment of the game. I don't tend to think about race or whatnot when I play games, I really couldn't care less what the skin colour of the Android's are. The Android's in Alien Isolation are all white too, I didn't think much of it.
Well then, I"m eagerly awaiting seeing more minorities in the "Ficticious Medieval Fantasy GAme with Dragons and Dwarves and shit."
The thing is, there is almost always a justification for why minorities are never included in a game. And now, we have a game where having a fairly larger number of minorities makes sense, the, "well, it's a fictional portrayal" excuse gets brought up again. It's like every white game developer's fantasy is to live in a world where black people and other minorities don't exist. It's fucking bullshit and frustrating.
Personally, I think it's too early to judge this game based off of two trailers, and two character reveals, but that doesn't excuse the plethora of already released games that do a similar routine of mental gymnastics to justify why minorities are once again not present in their game worlds.
One of the things I enjoyed a lot about the Game of Thrones books, is that there were a lot of people described in the book that weren't just variations on white people. There were brown people, black people, seemingly middle eastern and asian people. It was nice. I always enjoyed playing Bethesda games like Elder Scrolls and Fallout, because the world would be populated with all types of different people. It may not mean much to the highly represented majority, but to the under-represented minority, seeing some NPCs and Main Characters of Color was a pretty nice feeling. I may have brought it up before, but I thought it was a pretty damn cool gesture in Fallout 4 for Bethesda to include a skin customization that allowed your character to have vitiligo. It's a condition that I, myself have, yet is highly unknown in the larger population, so it was surprising and shocking to see. I'm not saying every game needs to have that level of customization, I just think it was a nice detail.
It's easy to shrug off representation as no big deal if you're a part of the group that's constantly represented, and in so many variations and interpretations. Minorities get so few spotlights shone on them in games, and when they do, it's like Junkyard Jack from Heavy Rain, or some other over the top, poorly conceptualized stereotype. Then, where a game takes place in a setting where it's reasonable to see a lot of minorities, they're just written out of the fiction as, "well, it's fantasy," or, "well, it's the future, and white people have taken over the areas and turned it into a bustling place of industry," as if that alone isn't insulting to the minorities that live there. "Wow, you guys were totally incapable of pulling your shit together, so thank god us white people showed up and bailed you out!"
Again, I'm not writing off Detroit. I'm a huge Quantic Dream fan since Indigo Prophecy, and I'm buying it day one, I just think that until we see more, it seems unfair to single this game out, but it's not like this topic couldn't have been made about a thousand other games with the same marginalization of minorities, even in games where there's literally no reason not to include them, because it's fucking fiction. I can't imagine a rationalization that doesn't sound like bullshit, or isn't insulting for why, if true, Detroit would have a predominantly white population in a city historically known to be black majority.
Messofanego
Banned
As someone who lived in the suburbs (Brownstown) outside of Detroit but have been there many times, I have to agree with OP. Detroit is very diverse. Heck, lots of Michigan is (like Dearborn is arab central).
Honestly, I think David Cage picked Detroit because of Robocop.
Deus Ex Human Revolution's Detroit seems more representative (despite the awful Letitia black trash lady racist stereotype) compared to what they have shown of Detroit Become Human.
Honestly, I think David Cage picked Detroit because of Robocop.
Deus Ex Human Revolution's Detroit seems more representative (despite the awful Letitia black trash lady racist stereotype) compared to what they have shown of Detroit Become Human.
SimplyOlivia
Banned
The ''oppression'' has nothing to do with black people in Detroit:BH.
I feel like i'm missing something. The game is about robots, artificial intelligence, whatever. Them taking the human's jobs, them being slaves to both white and black people. It's the sentient A.Is that are being oppressed. Like Cage said the humans are ''the bad guys'' in this story.
By my understanding It's these A.I people that are being oppressed by the white/black/other humans which is why we saw this hostage situation in the E3 trailer.
What did he mean by this?
Member
In the year 20XX....
Gentrification will no longer be carried out by hipsters and yuppies. Androids now terrorize minorities by discovering the local cuisine and praising the quaint urban locales.
Gentrification will no longer be carried out by hipsters and yuppies. Androids now terrorize minorities by discovering the local cuisine and praising the quaint urban locales.
Thank you! David Cage/QD has a terrible track record, from Beyond to Heavy Rain. I do not trust their vision, nor do they deserve the benefit of the doubt. But I'll reserve my judgement for PGW.
I can't say it bothers me much. For the same reason i'm not bothered about the lack of gay representation withing the main cast. The story is about android rights and what it is to be human, or at least seems to be..., it's not about race or sexuality, or gender. They may share a general sense of discrimination and an undertone of desired equality but the reason is a different one. as long as there is racial diversity in the npc's (which we've already seen) then i see no issue with the core narrative being about white plastic skinned androids. I mean, do people care the androids in bladerunner are all white?
It's meant to be a metaphor or stand in for American slavery.
Detroit is the site of a new industrial revolution thanks to Android slavery and technological advancements much how America's industrial revolution depended on slavery and technological advancements like the cotten gen. Bringing prosperity at the expense of a group of people
From the charecter synopsis on wikipedia:
She's struggling with the idea of why her people are considered less than men and only tools.
In American slavery, Blacks were considered property (rather than servants) and later only worth exactly three-fifths of a white person.
It's similar to how the X-Men were about the American civil rights movement.
It's just too soon to draw conclusions about diversity in the game.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
Oh so were doing that now.. do you know how many games fictitious that have a severe lack of diversity?
It's not a fun reality, but the black majority in Detroit is where the money isn't.
Red=White
You can pretty much make it:
Blue=Poor
Red=Not Poor
...and your map would pretty much still be correct. The demographic going downtown to work at the Ren Cen in an office isn't the same demographic going downtown to work at the gas station or change sheets at a hotel.
I think we need to see more before we can call it, but all we've really seen is a downtown lookin' area. With that, the distribution of people isn't wrong, it's just a tiny slice of Detroit as a whole. Detroit is super-segmented. From block to block you go from white to black to hispanic. If it it ends up that the game has only this setting with this distribution of people, I think the critique people should focus on is why did it not focus on the rest of the city? Detroit has too many poor people already, and it would be a missed opportunity to pick Detroit as a locale and not explore how these androids affect them. As it is right now, it seems like that android girl from the first trailer has a better shot at a happy life than a lotta kids growing up in Detroit today. At worst she's thought of as a tool, which might still be better than not being thought of at all.
Blue=Black
Red=White
You can pretty much make it:
Blue=Poor
Red=Not Poor
...and your map would pretty much still be correct. The demographic going downtown to work at the Ren Cen in an office isn't the same demographic going downtown to work at the gas station or change sheets at a hotel.
I think we need to see more before we can call it, but all we've really seen is a downtown lookin' area. With that, the distribution of people isn't wrong, it's just a tiny slice of Detroit as a whole. Detroit is super-segmented. From block to block you go from white to black to hispanic. If it it ends up that the game has only this setting with this distribution of people, I think the critique people should focus on is why did it not focus on the rest of the city? Detroit has too many poor people already, and it would be a missed opportunity to pick Detroit as a locale and not explore how these androids affect them. As it is right now, it seems like that android girl from the first trailer has a better shot at a happy life than a lotta kids growing up in Detroit today. At worst she's thought of as a tool, which might still be better than not being thought of at all.
Messofanego
Banned
Then why bother setting the game in Detroit, where black people form the overwhelming majority of the population?
It's whitewashing, plain and simple.
Salty Rice
Member
This detroit is a fictional great blooming city with androids. It makes sense that there isnt the same demographic in this city.
Also there were multiple black people in the trailers so i dont get the problem.
If wealth directly correlates to race and location as you say, then i guess it makes sense for androids (a expensive modern convenience) to largely be within white areas of the city? And if the game is centred around the lives of these androids, then it also makes sence for there to be a lower diversity range within the narrative world of the game and the player characters? Or have i missunderstood what you said?
SimplyOlivia
Banned
I feel like shit is getting lost in translation, English isn't my first language.
Loads of games don't have diversity. But this game does. There are loads of black people being represented in the 2015 trailer for the game.
Unless people are complaining about wanting a black playable character rather than just black NPCs then just wait and see because there's at least one if not more characters to be revealed.
Because robocop...duh!
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
That was my initial reaction too, but then I thought that it could be too on the nose, or maybe even in bad taste to have all the main representatives of what's essentially a slave-race in the game, have dark skin. I dunno... I think tackling this kind of topic correctly requires subtlety that Cage hasn't yet shown to have, but then again I loved their games so far overall, so I'm looking forward to this and hoping for the best. I mean I'm sure he's not blind to the fact that even in the kind of future they're presenting here, the racial diversity of Detroit would be pretty high.
karasu
Member
Oh shit is that Dwayne Wayne?...and he also had Cole in Beyond: Two Souls.
Pretty much the opposite of the black character in Heavy Rain. Not to mention the only likable and good person in that game.
I advice to wait before judging.
Agent Icebeezy
Welcome beautful toddler, Madison Elizabeth, to the horde!
Shit is not authentic without better made chips and faygo. I hope more black people are in since I am a black guy from Detroit and I'll buy on principle.
As a very white guy who works in Detroit it is weird the game based on Detroit has not shown media presenting black protagonists.
I am one of those people that does not think that every game needs a diverse cast especially in historical settings. This is largely due to if people could only get around on horses you wouldnt expect a lot of diversity within communities at the time (even in fictional settings) and most countries throughout that world would be separated and not mix as much. Of course larger cities would have a lot of diversity but it makes sense in my mind that lack of transportation would result in peoples being separated mostly by distance. That does not mean I wouldn't mind playing characters of other races.This same logic is why I LOVE diversity in futuristic setting because it makes sense that the human race, not bound by limitations of travel would be much much more diverse.
ANYWAY
I drive to and from Detroit everyday and work with many people of different races, but by and large the population of Detroit is primarily black. I don't care how much gentrification you put into Detroit it would still be predominantly black, in the same way hipsters moving into "The Mission" in San Fran did not suddenly make hispanic people disappear.
A game literally called Detroit should have black main characters end of story. If they have a black MC and chose to concentrate on showing white characters, that is a decision they made and can be chastised for it.
So far nothing about Detroit actually looks like Detroit. The setting is just a setting, there is no "heart of Detroit" in that game. Cage even said himself he chose Detroit due to its manufacturing history, which has meant nothing in the last 50 years of Detroit history.
The game is clearly being made from an outsiders perspective of not only Detroit, but Michigan as well. Nothing about the game indicates it is set in Detroit or Michigan outside of the skyline.
Game looks great, but the devs should shoulder some responsibility if they chose to call the game Detroit.
Better Maid can go fuck themselves since they changed their oil to palm oil. UNCLE RAY'S ALL THE WAY!
I am one of those people that does not think that every game needs a diverse cast especially in historical settings. This is largely due to if people could only get around on horses you wouldnt expect a lot of diversity within communities at the time (even in fictional settings) and most countries throughout that world would be separated and not mix as much. Of course larger cities would have a lot of diversity but it makes sense in my mind that lack of transportation would result in peoples being separated mostly by distance. That does not mean I wouldn't mind playing characters of other races.This same logic is why I LOVE diversity in futuristic setting because it makes sense that the human race, not bound by limitations of travel would be much much more diverse.
ANYWAY
I drive to and from Detroit everyday and work with many people of different races, but by and large the population of Detroit is primarily black. I don't care how much gentrification you put into Detroit it would still be predominantly black, in the same way hipsters moving into "The Mission" in San Fran did not suddenly make hispanic people disappear.
A game literally called Detroit should have black main characters end of story. If they have a black MC and chose to concentrate on showing white characters, that is a decision they made and can be chastised for it.
So far nothing about Detroit actually looks like Detroit. The setting is just a setting, there is no "heart of Detroit" in that game. Cage even said himself he chose Detroit due to its manufacturing history, which has meant nothing in the last 50 years of Detroit history.
The game is clearly being made from an outsiders perspective of not only Detroit, but Michigan as well. Nothing about the game indicates it is set in Detroit or Michigan outside of the skyline.
Game looks great, but the devs should shoulder some responsibility if they chose to call the game Detroit.
Better Maid can go fuck themselves since they changed their oil to palm oil. UNCLE RAY'S ALL THE WAY!
Unaha-Closp
Member
I've only seen 2 trailers, one of which was a gameplay section repeated over and over, so I find it hard to comprehensively say it falls one way or another on any one particular perceived problem or injustice. If and when it comes out and its wall to wall white humans and white androids without a valid reason then sure have at it but as of yet with only 2 trailers its too early to call I think.
The Abominable Snowman
Member
Isn't that par the course for most futuristic titles? Like, even though whites are fast becoming non-majority and minorities in general are growing to be an even bigger majority, if you look at any 'futuristic' medium, somehow we become maybe 10% of the population but your best friend/sidekick/scientist guy happens to be black and the movie/game/show/etc is lauded as being such a great representation of race because that character is a nice guy.
I know there are some exceptions but that's been the rule for a very long time.
It's even odder during disaster scenes in big metropolitan cities. You'd think the cities were segregated and bad shit only happens to the white side.
I know there are some exceptions but that's been the rule for a very long time.
It's even odder during disaster scenes in big metropolitan cities. You'd think the cities were segregated and bad shit only happens to the white side.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
I just took it to be a fantasy representation of future Detroit, made more palatable to the mainstream by greatly reducing minority presence.
I thought they junked the Kara idea altogether to make something more bland/easily sold but I guess this is a repackaging
I thought they junked the Kara idea altogether to make something more bland/easily sold but I guess this is a repackaging
Pretty much, but it's still an extraordinarily narrow view of the city. If the entire game is like this it would be like making a game called "America" and then telling a story that only involves Delaware. Sure, it's not technically wrong, but it's kinda disingenuous. Delaware does not tell the whole story of America on its on.
Dre_G_Writer
Member
This is a story about civil rights that takes place in...Detroit . Two thirds of the playable characters are white. I guess you could make the argument that they aren't white "humans" but rather white androids so their race doesn't matter but that argument is pretty thin.
This seems like a case of appropriating the story of the civil rights movement without actually having to deal with the realities of race in america. (i.e. the mutants in X-Men)
I say all of this knowing that there's still one more character that has yet to be revealed and there's so much story we don't know.
However it's hard for me to trust David Cage to handle a story about civil rights after he did this....
I guess im completely ignorant of this matter because I have no idea what your talking about besides Detroit the game itself.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
Where did you come up with that percentage? lol
White people will still make up an estimated 47% of the country in 2050.
GamingOblivion
Banned
When someone brings up reverse racism, that really is a productive response. Sorry pal. He's banned too, so it really doesn't matter.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
It looks like a Quantic Dream's representation of a major city. I'm not sure I can put into words what that means, but I know it when I see it... But, I think Detroit being used to underline a parallel to the story of humanity's rise back from the fall is very good fit. There's hopefulness there even if it hasn't happened yet. Besides, Detroit is proud of its auto industry even in this day, it makes sense that it would be a city proud of robotic technology that could be invented there. Again, not a bad parallel.
I don't disagree, but that is the end of it. So far it seems like that neat idea that completely ignores the actual city of Detroit.
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