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Did something happen with PAX or Penny Arcade today?

When you can't say on twitter i love women vaginas or boys have penises then political correctness gone to far.

I get on Twitter and decide to quote Kindergarten Cop by tweeting "boys have a penis, girls have a vagina" without any further context. A person in favor of transgender rights attempts to clarify why this is not always true. I have several options:

1.) I can clarify that I was simply quoting a movie. This is a neutral response.
2.) I can ignore it. This is a neutral response.
3.) I can clarify that I was simply quoting a movie, and offer an apology in regards to any offense take and state that wasn't my intent.
4.) I can double down and say the quote is 100% right.

Everybody is different, but I personally see absolutely no reason to go with option 4.
 
This attitude is the reason that will never happen.

It will never happen. It hasn't happened over the entire course of human history. If humans can ever make it to such a point, it won't be for thousands of years. Even then that's only if we make it that long as a species.
 

Asriel

Member
It will never happen. It hasn't happened over the entire course of human history. If humans can ever make it to such a point, it won't be for thousands of years. Even then that's only if we make it that long as a species.

And that makes it OK? It's OK to not try?
 

Perkel

Banned
Context is everything.

It sounds like you don't even understand what the actual insult is. You're making these points completely out of context. "I love eating KFC chicken" is not insulting. But when a joke like that is being made aside context of criticism of Obama or any other black political figure (as it often us), yes it is insulting.

You can't be prevented from saying what ever bigoted, narrow-minded things you want to say. But please. PLEASE do not be surprised if people call you out or shame you for it.

Ok then if i say "woman has a vagina and man has penis" then i am a bigot and narrow minded and i am offensive to people ?
 
And that makes it OK? It's OK to not try?

You can try, but it's never going to work. It's like the people who attempt to create a perpetual motion machine to create unlimited energy out of seemingly nothing. It sounds great, it would be amazing if it could happen, but it will never happen. There will always be greed and corruptibility in human beings. Not everyone mind you, a lot of us can act civilized and be good to one another. But it's the nature of animals to survive and reproduce. Survival to some might be to screw others over to be in some sort of perceived higher status. Happens all the time across the globe. I'm more of a realist over being an idealist. It would be great if everyone got along but that's not going to happen for a very, very, very long time.
 

Coxswain

Member
Ok then if i say "woman has a vagina and man has penis" then i am a bigot and narrow minded and i am offensive to people ?

That depends. If someone replies to you with "Not every woman has a vagina, and not every man has a penis", how do you respond?
 

Asriel

Member
You can try, but it's never going to work. It's like the people who attempt to create a perpetual motion machine to create unlimited energy out of seemingly nothing. It sounds great, it would be amazing if it could happen, but it will never happen. There will always be greed and corruptibility in human beings. Not everyone mind you, a lot of us can act civilized and be good to one another. But it's the nature of animals to survive and reproduce. Survival to some might be to screw others over to be in some sort of perceived higher status. Happens all the time across the globe. I'm more of a realist over being an idealist. It would be great if everyone got along but that's not going to happen for a very, very, very long time.

I don't understand.

Of course not everybody will participate, and of course this utopian ideal won't come about. But so what? Does that give you an excuse to do nothing about it? To not realize that what may come out of your mouth can insult and marginalize certain groups of people?
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
I don't understand.

Of course not everybody will participate, and of course this utopian ideal won't come about. But so what? Does that give you an excuse to do nothing about it? To not realize that what may come out of your mouth can insult and marginalize certain groups of people?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy

The perfect is the enemy of the good. It's an easy way out to say "things will never be perfect so it's hopeless. We shouldn't waste our time trying to improve any of it."
 

iamblades

Member
This whole controversy is completely absurd.

Can we please stop accusing everyone who has a slightly different set of terminology or opinions of being a hateful bigot in the complete absence of any actual evidence of hate or bigotry?

It is perfectly reasonable for someone to have the opinion that people can identify any way they want to and behave in any way they want to and modify their bodies to match but are incapable of fundamentally changing their biological sex. It might be rude to remind a transgendered person of that repeatedly like Mike did, but rudeness is not the same thing as bigotry or hate, and calling it such just diminishes the sting of those words.
 

Sibylus

Banned
I'm not saying I'd be rich enough to have my own island, but I'd be in some pretty good fucking money if I got a kickback for every addle-headed, unironic usage of the "politically correct" boogeyman. This isn't the comment section of a Fox News article. At least pretend for a moment you care about the issue at hand and say something of substance.
 
Seems to me Mike was having an argument over the internet and then things got heated, reading his later blogpost I then to kinda agree with him.

He says he is ok with people being whatever they want to be and he will address them as they want to be addressed, in other words, being respectful, that sounds like the right aptitude to have, however it seems people are giving him trouble because he personally doesn't believe that gender or sex is as diffused as some people are claiming.

Is that it? People are mad at him, because he does not accept your definitions of Gender and biological Sex? I tend to agree with his opinion, so I find it odd that people would be arguing, when he is already saying the best policy is being respectful.

But I don't think respect should imply that one accepts the believes of the other, like I can accept and respect a Muslim person and even be good friends with him, but that doesn't mean I believe in Allah
 

Perkel

Banned
That depends. If someone replies to you with "Not every woman has a vagina, and not every man has a penis", how do you respond?

I would agree. Penis and Vagina are only part of being man or female. Genes, hormones, bone structure, muscle structure, breasts and many other things are what define something man or woman, not their psychological state of mind.
 

GungHo

Single-handedly caused Exxon-Mobil to sue FOX, start World War 3

I don't know how people who have been reading someone's material for years can suddenly be so surprised when when their heroes turn out to have character flaws.

622461681_wmYfp-L.jpg
 
How can people suggest that there are no "PC warriors" after reading this thread? I mean come on.

Gabe's allowed to have his opinion. Believe it or not, just because the minority, transgendered people, believes that the words "man" and "woman" refer to the social construct of gender identity rather than the biological construct of sexual identity does NOT mean they are "right." Just because the majority, cisgendered, doesn't want the meaning of their words to change does NOT mean they are wrong.

Political correctness really IS an issue. It happens every time there is a disagreement between a majority and a minority. Because the minority usually tend to being in a position of more comfort, it's seen as OFFENSIVE to disagree.

No, I don't think anyone believes that there are pitchfork-wielding people whose sole mission is to find and stop people for using "politically incorrect" terms. The problem is that there's very few people who find everything offensive, but in this world, we tend to hear opinions from everyone who IS offended. It's just that, when their legitimate opinions are bashed, criticized, and made fun of, sometimes even punished, they tend to get tired of it.

You CAN'T argue that "political correctness" isn't an issue. It's blatantly obvious even here on GAF. People are routinely punished in General for posting in a trans-centered topic with a "politically incorrect" opinion, getting jumped on by 20 or 30 people, trying to defend themselves, getting ill-tempered from having so many people bash them, and saying things they shouldn't. At one point, it was almost impossible to hold a legitimate discussion in General about trans because you'd just get a pile of people quoting you going "here we go again," or "LOL this guy," while the minority, the actual trans-people here on GAF, were legitimately slinging insults around and not even getting reprimanded.

I have to give it to GAF for cleaning up the act a LOT on the topic, now, but it was just an example of the politically-correct climate.
 

Coxswain

Member
I would agree. Penis and Vagina are only part of being man or female. Genes, hormones, bone structure, muscle structure, breasts and many other things are what define something man or woman, not their psychological state of mind.

Well, we can put this to rest right now, I think. If you don't think that psychology and a person's mind has anything to do with their gender, you are what we call "ignorant". Unfortunately, "bigoted" tends to fall out of "ignorant", even when the person has the absolute best, rosiest intentions that they are sure are just chock full of love for humanity. But maybe not in a particularly "offensive" way, so you're still good there!

And if you're lucky, someone would then extend an olive branch and try to educate you on the subject, and inform you that your gut feelings do not trump decades of expert study by people who have made this sort of thing their life's work.
See, where "offensive" comes in is when someone comes to you in good faith, hoping that you are a reasonable, logical little guy whose ego won't get in the way of his self-improvement. Because if you see all that, and your only argument is "Nah, that doesn't seem right to me; I'm going with my gut on this one."... Well, that's when you turn pretty actively "offensive", no matter how much of a stand-up guy you think you are.



This is all speaking hypothetically, of course.
 

iamblades

Member
I hope people have empathy for those who were hurt by this.

You can have empathy for people being hurt by things without believing that they have the right to be protected from ever being hurt. You can have empathy for the person being offended while still believing that the offensive statement is a perfectly valid opinion.

No one has the right to not be offended.
 

dahuman

Neo Member
America, where freedom of speech is loathed upon, liberal jokes turn into big deals, and with people who are worried about their feelings more than their obesity. Oh~ say~ can~ you~ see~~~~
 
Ok, this sounds pretty good. He actually seems sincerely sorry.

I’m not qualified to talk about the ambiguity of sexuality and frankly I don’t give a shit about it.
Damn. It almost sounded like he was willing to learn more on the subject of transgenderism but I guess not. It's sort of sad that he has helped create as massive event where all kinds of different people come together to celebrate games yet has no interest in learning about them. I expect this debacle won't be the last.
 

AkuMifune

Banned
America, where freedom of speech is loathed upon, liberal jokes turn into big deals, and with people who are worried about their feelings more than their obesity. Oh~ say~ can~ you~ see~~~~
Your America where bigoted fucks get to say what they want and be respected because they can trace images well for a living is a much shittier America.
 

dahuman

Neo Member
Your America where bigoted fucks get to say what they want and be respected because they can trace images well for a living is a much shittier America.

My America would be better because it'd be less about politics or being butt hurt but rather try to stay healthy and live a happy life. I'm still going to PAX, and I'll have a ton of street passes while having fun for the companies or people that won't be there because the word "fun" doesn't register correctly to some people and think their actions or opinions actually matter without required power when we have 8+ billion people in the world. :)
 

thumb

Banned
Ok, this sounds pretty good. He actually seems sincerely sorry.


Damn. It almost sounded like he was willing to learn more on the subject of transgenderism but I guess not. It's sort of sad that he has helped create as massive event where all kinds of different people come together to celebrate games yet has no interest in learning about them. I expect this debacle won't be the last.

Yeah, that was a really unfortunate sentence. To be charitable, he may mean it in an academic sense (e.g., debates regarding the relative accuracy and scope of terminology), but it comes off as not giving a shit about LGBTQ issues.
 
How can people suggest that there are no "PC warriors" after reading this thread? I mean come on.

Gabe's allowed to have his opinion. Believe it or not, just because the minority, transgendered people, believes that the words "man" and "woman" refer to the social construct of gender identity rather than the biological construct of sexual identity does NOT mean they are "right." Just because the majority, cisgendered, doesn't want the meaning of their words to change does NOT mean they are wrong.

Political correctness really IS an issue. It happens every time there is a disagreement between a majority and a minority. Because the minority usually tend to being in a position of more comfort, it's seen as OFFENSIVE to disagree.

No, I don't think anyone believes that there are pitchfork-wielding people whose sole mission is to find and stop people for using "politically incorrect" terms. The problem is that there's very few people who find everything offensive, but in this world, we tend to hear opinions from everyone who IS offended. It's just that, when their legitimate opinions are bashed, criticized, and made fun of, sometimes even punished, they tend to get tired of it.

You CAN'T argue that "political correctness" isn't an issue. It's blatantly obvious even here on GAF. People are routinely punished in General for posting in a trans-centered topic with a "politically incorrect" opinion, getting jumped on by 20 or 30 people, trying to defend themselves, getting ill-tempered from having so many people bash them, and saying things they shouldn't. At one point, it was almost impossible to hold a legitimate discussion in General about trans because you'd just get a pile of people quoting you going "here we go again," or "LOL this guy," while the minority, the actual trans-people here on GAF, were legitimately slinging insults around and not even getting reprimanded.

I have to give it to GAF for cleaning up the act a LOT on the topic, now, but it was just an example of the politically-correct climate.

This guy gets it.
 
K

kittens

Unconfirmed Member

Yup. Someone should rewrite Gabe's letter as if it were written by someone who cared about being empathetic and accountable. It'd be pretty poignant.
 
Yeah, that was a really unfortunate sentence. To be charitable, he may mean it in an academic sense (e.g., debates regarding the relative accuracy and scope of terminology), but it comes off as not giving a shit about LGBTQ issues.

Yeah, but it's in his right to not give a shit about such issues. I'm sure he has his own issues he cares about. That's just not one of them.
 

EmiPrime

Member
Yup. Someone should rewrite Gabe's letter as if it were written by someone who cared about being empathetic and accountable. It'd be pretty poignant.

Seriously.

This is Mel Gibson-esque with the reiteration of "I only lashed out with "transphobic" (quotation marks important) language because I was angry, I don't really hate trans people".

Fuck him. We've seen his true colours and he's not backing down.
 

thumb

Banned
Yeah, but it's in his right to not give a shit about such issues. I'm sure he has his own issues he cares about. That's just not one of them.

How do "rights" have anything to do with this conversation? I have never disputed nor even implied that he lacked such a "right".
 
Gabe is allowed to believe what he wants.

Others are allowed to criticize those beliefs.

And still others are allowed to criticize those criticisms if they feel they're unfounded.

Similarly, other are allowed to criticize those who criticize those who criticize those beliefs.

It's like Inception. Except, instead of dreams, everyone just bitches at one another!
 

big_erk

Member
Ok, this sounds pretty good. He actually seems sincerely sorry.


Damn. It almost sounded like he was willing to learn more on the subject of transgenderism but I guess not. It's sort of sad that he has helped create as massive event where all kinds of different people come together to celebrate games yet has no interest in learning about them. I expect this debacle won't be the last.

Just wondering why you think he should be forced to accept some one else's definition of gender definition. It really is a sensitive subject, and should not be taken lightly. He probably should have taken the high road and not responded to the tweets, but the cat is out of the bag now. Would he have gotten as much flack if he had said women have no Y chromosome?
 
The word privilege is being thrown around so aimlessly it's lost its meaning.

Everyone on this forum are pretty much privileged. That's one fact.
 
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