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[dark10x]

I dont think SMS are getting the credit i think they deserve here.

Yes and no.

Let's see how the final build works but, my take is that, for a console racer, you have a fixed spec and you should work within those confines. Forza 5 may not be fancy from a technical perspective but they hit their frame-rate target and that is what matters most from a gameplay perspective. I feel that SMS should do whatever it takes to get that frame-rate at a full 60 fps in all conditions. If that means removing modes and options or making cuts elsewhere, so be it. I realize a lot of people won't agree with that but I feel it's the thing that allows games to age best and remain playable for years to come. Popping in an outdated looking PS2 game that runs at 60 fps, for instance, often feels A LOT better than playing a choppy sub-30 fps PS3 or 360 game just due to its fluidity.

That said, with their reaction to this article, there is still hope that they'll actually meet (or get really close to) their target. I'm really hoping that's the case.

The Forza team clearly places a priority on performance and did everything they could to make certain their launch XO title hit that target even if it meant skimping on other features.

 

[ShamePain]

I understand part of what you're saying, in terms of their overall strategy for rendering priorities (real-time lighting on moving objects, pre-calc on static objects, SSR, etc), but the bolded (which comes across as the thesis of your point) is just at odds with reality.

I should say that shadow mapping has remained the same, it's still an incorrect model where all the shadows project on cars as if they are on top. It's hard to explain if you don't have experience with games. Obviously lighting in general has improved with IBL, and PG adding actual real-time lighting and weather, but the question is whether those systems can run at 60 fps.

 

[AgentOtaku]

I just saw the two top voted comments.

this stage with an old build."

Well I've been informed by some WMD members that the SMS devs are not happy at all with this "analysis". The build they had was from February and was still in a period of optimization. Maybe wait until you have release versions before posting your "analysis

Oh shit!

Stay classy DF, lol

 

[Marlenus]

Less than three and half an hour. People at eurogamer probably have more to do than just to wait for calls about updating articles. Not to mention to check where they were wrong with, contacting the author of the article (who perhaps isn't even working at an office at eurogamer) and then finally do the update to the article.
In my opinion the “response“ time is nothing we should make a big case of.

The author should have phoned the devs as soon as they got wind of the mistake and corrected it ASAP, or the editor should have. Heck even an interim 'it appears that the build may be older than we thought, please bear with us while we investigate' update would have been better than nothing.

 

[Muppet of a Man]

Yikes. Tearing. That shit sucks. No place for that in today's world.

 

[Three]

Forza may not be fancy from a technical perspective but they hit their frame-rate target and that is what matters most from a gameplay perspective.

Couldn't disagree more. It's the complete opposite. From a gameplay perspective the added gameplay modes matter most, from a graphics perspective the framerate matters more. The idea that I would forego the added ability to race in different weather, or more racers in the interest of "gameplay" makes little sense. If I consider a locked 60fps to be that important to gameplay I can turn off weather and reduce the number of cars in a race and achieve the same gameplay as the one that does not allow it. I cannot do the opposite however.

 

[c0de]

The author should have phoned the devs as soon as they got wind of the mistake and corrected it ASAP, or the editor should have. Heck even an interim 'it appears that the build may be older than we thought, please bear with us while we investigate' update would have been better than nothing.

So you assume the author is sitting there in front of his monitor, watching GAF and do what you think he should do. Seriously, I am sure they updated as fast as they could and assuming they didn't (making it sound intentionally) is ridiculous, in my opinion.

 

[qa_engineer]

PS4 maintaining better fps with higher resolution is relatively impressive

We know that its the more powerful machine, so no real surprise there. But to perform better consistently at a higher resolution is a true testament to that.

 

[omonimo]

We know that its the more powerful machine, so no real surprise there. But to perform better consistently at a higher resolution is a true testament to that.

Well considering a lot of people expected xbone to handle better 60 fps at lower res, should be surprising for them.

 

[ShamePain]

We know that its the more powerful machine, so no real surprise there. But to perform better consistently at a higher resolution is a true testament to that.

From what I understand alpha effects (smoke,spray,etc.) require high fillrate, PS4's fillrate is twice higher than Xbone's.

 

[Marlenus]

So you assume the author is sitting there in front of his monitor, watching GAF and do what you think he should do. Seriously, I am sure they updated as fast as they could and assuming they didn't (making it sound intentionally) is ridiculous, in my opinion.

Who said it was intentional that they did not update it quickly? Why would I attribute this to malice when incompetence explains it even easier?

They publish the article in good faith, the devs see it and are quick to respond in their forums and are probably contacting Bamco and Eurogamer to get it sorted. Why would the author, or the editor need to be watching GAF when they could be watching their emails? It should not have taken nearly 4 hours to get it updated.

As I have also stated if they are going to do pre-release performance articles they need to very clearly inform the readers when the build is from by simply stating the month the build is from.

 

[dark10x]

Couldn't disagree more. It's the complete opposite. From a gameplay perspective the added gameplay modes matter most, from a graphics perspective the framerate matters more. The idea that I would forego the added ability to race in different weather, or more racers in the interest of "gameplay" makes little sense. If I consider a locked 60fps to be that important to gameplay I can turn off weather and reduce the number of cars in a race and achieve the same gameplay as the one that does not allow it. I cannot do the opposite however.

My point is that the weather itself should be adapted to work without a real performance penalty. Allow weather, but cut down on the visual aspect of it to avoid killing performance.

They could keep all of the gameplay features while cutting down on the visual elements to achieve a stable frame-rate.

 

[gunslikewhoa]

They could probably drop back on certain graphical effects that maybe don't provide much benefit on a low res VR screen or even limited the VR mode to certain race types on PS4.

The Gran tourismo games did similar things, there were often huge disparities in performance and visual fidelity depending on which mode you were in due to the number or cars on track etc.

That's exactly what I'm expecting.

 

[leeh]

Couldn't disagree more. It's the complete opposite. From a gameplay perspective the added gameplay modes matter most, from a graphics perspective the framerate matters more. The idea that I would forego the added ability to race in different weather, or more racers in the interest of "gameplay" makes little sense. If I consider a locked 60fps to be that important to gameplay I can turn off weather and reduce the number of cars in a race and achieve the same gameplay as the one that does not allow it. I cannot do the opposite however.

With sim racers, it's locked 60fps or no play for me. If frames dip and input delay suffers while racing, it can really effect what your doing.

Everything should be centered around locked 60fps. That should be the baseline. Make the weather look like crap, I don't care as long as it's 60fps.

 

[qa_engineer]

Brad Wardell just talks to hear his own voice.

http://gamingbolt.com/xbox-ones-esr...rmance-but-number-of-gpu-cores-still-a-factor

 

[Klocker]

Alright 25 car races sound fine to me then ... don't need horrible frame drops thank you

 

[Lord Error]

Yes and no.

Let's see how the final build works but, my take is that, for a console racer, you have a fixed spec and you should work within those confines. Forza 5 may not be fancy from a technical perspective but they hit their frame-rate target and that is what matters most from a gameplay perspective. I feel that SMS should do whatever it takes to get that frame-rate at a full 60 fps in all conditions. If that means removing modes and options or making cuts elsewhere, so be it. I realize a lot of people won't agree with that but I feel it's the thing that allows games to age best and remain playable for years to come.

I don't really think framerate is that important. If it drops some under certain conditions and keeps the FPS solid for as much as the article suggests (60 everywhere with 35 cars except 55 drop in that one stretch) that way, way better than GT5 and GT6 were, and I don't remember it being something of a problem in those games. In fact they were heralded as great playing simulators.

People who care that much, can always race during sunny weather in this game, or have races with less cars during the rain. They did really good job with all that in this game I feel.

 

[twobear]

i feel like, if a small third-party studio can make a multiplatform on xbone with real-time lighting and weather, many cars, and get it running this well....then there's really no excuse for turn 10 next time around.

 

[Three]

With sim racers, it's locked 60fps or no play for me. If frames dip and input delay suffers while racing, it can really effect what your doing.

Everything should be centered around locked 60fps. That should be the baseline. Make the weather look like crap, I don't care as long as it's 60fps.

What exactly makes the arbitrary 60fps the baseline? A lot of people put this idea that temporal visual information is a great factor to gameplay, above actual gameplay modes even it seems. That's not to say framerate isn't important but this idea that it affects gameplay tremendously to the point I would give up actual gameplay modes for it is not something I can agree with. Would, say, spatial visual information (resolution) be just as important to gameplay in a shooter for example? Would you play a boring shooter if it were 1080p instead of one with more gameplay modes at 720p?

My point is that the weather itself should be adapted to work without a real performance penalty. Allow weather, but cut down on the visual aspect of it to avoid killing performance.

They could keep all of the gameplay features while cutting down on the visual elements to achieve a stable frame-rate.

Well that is a different matter if visuals are cut and the gameplay features are kept but cutting modes/features entirely as you suggested in your initial post

If that means removing modes and options or making cuts elsewhere, so be it.

is not something I would do in the interest of gameplay, quite the opposite in fact.

 

[Revson]

As long as it's solid a 60fps while hotlapping I can deal with it.

They really should have cut the grid size down though.

 

[pager99]

So it seems DF were a bit preemptive, they should learn not to jjust throw developers under the bus like that without getting their facts straight or better still wait until the game is actually released

 

[Gestault]

I don't really think framerate is that important. If it drops some under certain conditions and keeps the FPS solid for as much as the article suggests (60 everywhere with 35 cars except 55 drop in that one stretch) that way, way better than GT5 and GT6 were, and I don't remember it being something of a problem in those games. In fact they were heralded as great playing simulators.

People who care that much, can always race during sunny weather in this game, or have races with less cars during the rain. They did really good job with all that in this game I feel.

Framerate's pretty important in sims, and it was a specific shortcoming in modern GT games. It's pre-release code, but the performance problems here unfortunately go beyond even those. Optimization does matter. It's not even like it can't be done here, they're like 9/10ths of the way there. Saying people should just only play the parts of the game that don't cause problems gets an eyebrow raise from me.

 

[Fredrik]

So, correct me if I'm wrong here, 2.5 years into this console generation there is still only 3 racers that delivers 60fps?
Mario Kart 8
Forza 5
Riptide GP2
We need more articles like this highlighting the bad performance more than just drooling over the graphics and resolution.

 

[pager99]

So, correct me if I'm wrong here, 2.5 years into this console generation there is still only 3 racers that delivers 60fps?
Mario Kart 8
Forza 5
Riptide GP2
We need more articles like this highlighting the bad performance more than just drooling over the graphics and resolution.

Read the digital foundry article they updated it so let's just wait until the game is released

 

[danowat]

So it seems DF were a bit preemptive, they should learn not to jjust throw developers under the bus like that without getting their facts straight or better still wait until the game is actually released

No, they were provided with a copy of the game to do a hands on by the publisher.

No one was thrown under a bus.

 

[AlStrong]

I actually wish we'd see more games take a dynamic approach to AA like Resident Evil 5 did back on 360. It could adjust between 4x MSAA to no AA depending on the load. Worked brilliantly.

Easier when there were fewer buffers.

 

[system11]

So - still faster than Driveclub then.

Honestly, it makes me really sad that the article described 60fps as 'ambitious'. Have standards really collapsed so comprehensively?

 

[omonimo]

So it seems DF were a bit preemptive, they should learn not to jjust throw developers under the bus like that without getting their facts straight or better still wait until the game is actually released

To be honest I'm a bit skeptical performance will improve incredibly. It's a little studio and a very demanding game. My applause for them if the final build it's that better but I will believe when I'll see it.

 

[pager99]

No, they were provided with a copy of the game to do a hands on by the publisher.

No one was thrown under a bus.

Well read the updated DF article they apologized unreservedly

 

[le-seb]

Honestly, it makes me really sad that the article described 60fps as 'ambitious'. Have standards really collapsed so comprehensively?

60fps with dynamic lighting, weather, full damage simulation and 40+ cars on track is ambitious, yes.

 

[Fredrik]

Read the digital foundry article they updated it so let's just wait until the game is released

You mean so we can add one more game to that impressively long list? :/ The performance issue still exist, even if we add Forza 6 later on too, this generation has been truly terrible so far if you want 60fps, and oddly enough WiiU might be the console that leaves you the least disappointed.

 

[Concept17]

So - still faster than Driveclub then.

Honestly, it makes me really sad that the article described 60fps as 'ambitious'. Have standards really collapsed so comprehensively?

They're trying to accomplish something most any developer would struggle to achieve. It's not like they just went "nah, we don't feel like making this run better."

 

[Lettuce]

Defo getting the PC version now then, shame they couldnt hit a locked 60fps on the consoles and doesnt bode well for the Wii U version

 

[dark10x]

You mean so we can add one more game to that impressively long list? :/ The performance issue still exist, even if we add Forza 6 later on too, this generation has been truly terrible so far if you want 60fps, and oddly enough WiiU might be the console that leaves you the least disappointed.

For racing games? Sure, though there aren't that many racers yet. There are, however, a surprisingly large number of 60fps games on the new consoles right now. Maybe not the big AAA titles you want but the number is still reasonably high.

 

[biglittleps]

So, correct me if I'm wrong here, 2.5 years into this console generation there is still only 3 racers that delivers 60fps?
Mario Kart 8
Forza 5
Riptide GP2
We need more articles like this highlighting the bad performance more than just drooling over the graphics and resolution.

Its just 1.5+ for PS4/XB1. Wii U is not actually next gen console if you consider its hardware power.

 

[GHG]

You mean so we can add one more game to that impressively long list? :/ The performance issue still exist, even if we add Forza 6 later on too, this generation has been truly terrible so far if you want 60fps, and oddly enough WiiU might be the console that leaves you the least disappointed.

Actually I'd be most disappointed because this game isn't coming out on that console anytime soon.

 

[Deadbeat]

Its just 1.5+ for PS4/XB1. Wii U is not actually next gen console if you consider its hardware power.

Thats not how console generations work.

 

[|FeZZa|]

Read the digital foundry article they updated it so let's just wait until the game is released

DF doesn't have anything to lose. if retail build shows improved fps and less of a difference, they'll just say SMS are awesome in fixing it and the delays were worth it. If not, they'll just say told you so because they're the awesome pixel peeping overlords.

 

[NullPointer]

For moments where the frame-rate goes under, tearing is an issue - especially on sharp turns with lots of camera motion. This is a bigger deal once we push the boat out a bit more; our next race featuring a whopping 44 cars on the Circuit Des 24 Heures du Mans track, with a more taxing chase mode camera and heavy rain in play. The impact is immediate, and PS4 tears constantly with drops to 35fps at the busy starting grid, while Xbox One breaches the high 20s. This improves over the course of the race as cars splinter off into packs, though we never catch a glimpse of the 60fps line.

Edit: Not exactly sure how to take DF's update, but definitely interested to see their take on the release build.

 

[NoMoChokeSJ]

What exactly makes the arbitrary 60fps the baseline? A lot of people put this idea that temporal visual information is a great factor to gameplay, above actual gameplay modes even it seems. That's not to say framerate isn't important but this idea that it affects gameplay tremendously to the point I would give up actual gameplay modes for it is not something I can agree with. Would, say, spatial visual information (resolution) be just as important to gameplay in a shooter for example? Would you play a boring shooter if it were 1080p instead of one with more gameplay modes at 720p?

Sim racers are definitely helped by 60fps when it comes to fluidity and responsiveness. Plus an unlocked framerate in these fast paced games is more than likely going to lead to screen tearing and janky controls, which would be horrible in a racer.

Your first person shooter argument is flawed because I would rather not play a "boring" game regardless of it's tech accomplishments or shortfalls. This was my biggest issue with Driveclub. While I know lots of people on here love the game, I found it mind numbingly dull and unforgivably flawed in it's mechanics. The game itself was beautiful and had lots of great tech, however the biggest thing to me in it, the gameplay, felt off.

 

[Fried Food]

Serious sim racers need to be as close to 60 FPS as possible. Even this early build is close to 60 most of the time, so I'm confident the final game will be fine. Plus, taking a corner, with lots of cars present, in the rain, is always going to be a cluster anyways. So, if that is the only spot where the frame rate dips, we should be good.

 

[GHG]

i feel like, if a small third-party studio can make a multiplatform on xbone with real-time lighting and weather, many cars, and get it running this well....then there's really no excuse for turn 10 next time around.

Yep, this is the most exciting thing in truth.

And judging by the PS4's performance PD should be able to do some mind blowing things with the next GT.

The bar has been raised.

 

[Lettuce]

Well, Forza 6 will probably not have 44 cars on track at the same time. That should help.

For me 44 cars is overkill, id much rather them lower it to say 35 cars if it means a locked 60fps there is nothing worse in a racing game than an unstable frame rate especially when it fluctuates as much as it would appear to in this game.

Seems we havent come that far from since 1998 and MotorHead on the PS1, you could choose 4 cars and get a locked 60fps or choose 8 cars and get a locked 30fps.....

 

[Bobnob]

Alan from VVV posted another vid (ps4).He does say its "Rock solid 60" lets say i'm still skeptical!

 

[tuxfool]

Wait, so it's actually more expensive but produces better results? Damn, bad choice if the XB1 version is still suffering from frame drops.

Quite. This seems especially true for the XB1, which is somewhat ROPS deficient.

 

[NullPointer]

For me 44 cars is overkill, id much rather them lower it to say 35 cars if it means a locked 60fps there is nothing worse in a racing game than an unstable frame rate especially when it fluctuates as much as it would appear to in this game.

Exactly. And I can deal with minor drops, but if a large field or a large field+rain means significant drops and tearing then its pointless. 60fps, as a feature, shouldn't be a bullet point that only applies in ideal conditions, but as a constant throughout, with only the rarest of situations leading to noticeable drops.

Hopefully DF's findings bear little resemblance to the final release, because I want to believe in Slightly Mad's sorcery.

 

[Sweep14]

Another game with better AF on Xbox? Really? I thought we had finally seen the end of that, hopefully they fix it in a day one patch or something.

If this build is from February, don't worry about it. SCE's technical bulletin to Devs about AF implementation is more recent.

 

[Scaramanger]

Alan from VVV posted another vid (ps4).He does say its "Rock solid 60" lets say i'm still skeptical!

He's playing one car, there is every chance its solid! We have to remember the DF video was worse case, 44 cars and heavy rain.

Alan has the latest build now, proper 60fps videos coming next week so we'll be able to tell ourselves.

 

[NullPointer]

He's playing one car, there is every chance its solid! We have to remember the DF video was worse case, 44 cars and heavy rain.

Is that worst case scenario something you're expected to race in the career mode? Or is this DF pushing all the options to max and creating something you'll never be required to do in the game?

 

[Boombox On]

So, correct me if I'm wrong here, 2.5 years into this console generation there is still only 3 racers that delivers 60fps?
Mario Kart 8
Forza 5
Riptide GP2

MK8 also has a frame rate dip when doing split screen