I play a lot of sim racers and even arcade racers (including driveclub, which I enjoy), almost every simracer you can name, iracing, Forza, GT. I play them religiously. Platinumed GT5 even. I know I'm blowing my own trumpet but I consider myself well versed when it comes to sim racers so I think I can make a judgement on the importance of framerate for me. It's important, but I don't set an arbitrary baseline whereby anything less is unacceptable and worth sacrificing gameplay modes for. 60fps is an arbitrary framerate, it correlates to nothing, nothing other than the AC power line frequency set back in the day and therefore also used in televisions. I get that higher is better, always. I just don't agree with people who value it above all else. I think it's irrational, but that's my opinion. As irrational as suggesting anything below 1080p is unacceptable. They are both the same thing too, extra information that affects gameplay in some minor way, one spatial one temporal. I think my resolution example only confuses the matter. Let me put it another way: If somebody said "Titanfall is rubbish they should not have included mechs in the game because mechs drop the framerate from 60 to 34 (it does btw) I wish they didn't include these gameplay elements and just stuck to 60fps above all else" I would disagree and maybe even think that person is slightly unreasonable. There is nothing ambitious about 60fps if you are not changing or adding to actual gameplay elements. Doing the same game every year or so would not be something I applaud even if it runs at an arbitrary 60fps. I don't think it's important enough to sacrifice advances in actual gameplay modes.
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Digital Foundry: Hands-On with Project Cars
- Thread starter Theorry
- Start date
I play a lot of sim racers and even arcade racers (including driveclub, which I enjoy), almost every simracer you can name, iracing, Forza, GT. I play them religiously. Platinumed GT5 even. I know I'm blowing my own trumpet but I consider myself well versed when it comes to sim racers so I think I can make a judgement on the importance of framerate for me. It's important, but I don't set an arbitrary baseline whereby anything less is unacceptable and worth sacrificing gameplay modes for. 60fps is an arbitrary framerate, it correlates to nothing, nothing other than the AC power line frequency set back in the day and therefore also used in televisions. I get that higher is better, always. I just don't agree with people who value it above all else. I think it's irrational, but that's my opinion. As irrational as suggesting anything below 1080p is unacceptable. They are both the same thing too, extra information that affects gameplay in some minor way, one spatial one temporal. I think my resolution example only confuses the matter. Let me put it another way: If somebody said "Titanfall is rubbish they should not have included mechs in the game because mechs drop the framerate from 60 to 34 (it does btw) I wish they didn't include these gameplay elements and just stuck to 60fps above all else" I would disagree and maybe even think that person is slightly unreasonable. There is nothing ambitious about 60fps if you are not changing or adding to actual gameplay elements. Doing the same game every year or so would not be something I applaud even if it runs at an arbitrary 60fps. I don't think it's important enough to sacrifice advances in actual gameplay modes.
You will not play such races in Career because the number of different types of cars will never be so high in career mode (meaning different models, which is more taxing than less models). The number of cars and weather conditions can be found in the Career Mode though.
That said, we should wait until we see how the final version works before we decide whether there're too many cars or particles are too taxing or whatever.
Fredrik
Member
That was seriously awesome and quite possibly my favorite graphics option ever. DICE certainly knew what was best to focus on back then. And later they gave us 60fps Xbox launch title Rallisport Challenge. Those were the days. Not DICE but then we had Burnout too. And Outrun 2. And Ridge Racer. There were no talk about 30fps being okay for arcade racers back then, I don't get who came up with that idea.
3rdamention
Member
On one hand, you would think that Microsoft would send in some devs to help out with development and get this game running much better than it is, or at least much more consistent (I know, I know, this isn't probably the final copy, or there are patches that could come on release. But it still doesn't seem to be a good sign this close to release).
On the other hand, this game could be somewhat of a competitor to the Forza Franchise so you wonder if Microsoft would rather spend all their time and resources getting Forza running the best it can and just flip the finger at Project Cars.
On the other hand, this game could be somewhat of a competitor to the Forza Franchise so you wonder if Microsoft would rather spend all their time and resources getting Forza running the best it can and just flip the finger at Project Cars.
Arcade racers or actual arcade system of those games? Because the console version of Ridge Racer was 320x240@30fps. 30fps isn't some new trend.
I doubt any of the platform holders would stop help they'd otherwise give developers to make their own titles look better in comparison.
Fredrik
Member
I know, definitely didn't mean Ridge Racer 1, PS1 was quite horrible at first when it comes to framerates, especially in Europe, but Ridge Racer as a franchise went 60fps-locked later on just like Wipeout, Burnout and pretty much all serious arcade racers. Then it all went downhill. Don't know which game was first but it escalated quickly and now we're at the point where 30fps is considered being okay for arcade racers, which I honestly find strange since they're usually faster and imo not in any way compatible with low framerates. And when Driveclub at 30fps is now acceptable it makes you wonder how far off we are from letting a Gran Turismo with awesome graphics at 30fps get a free pass too. :/
The beautiful Ridge Racer V was 60 fps as was every RR game after until 3DS. Ridge Racers on PSP at launch was mind blowing.
Most racers on ps2 are 60 fps as well.
Yeah, someone posted a link a few pages back with them saying the game will have 8x AF on both systems.
Nintendojitsu
Banned
The video has been removed, why?
Natureboy99
Banned
Yeah they have been very quiet about the WiiU version. I'm wondering about multiplayer details too.
funkystudent
Member
Not surprised DF would do something like this.
These are people who where passing E3 trailers through their analysis software for god sake.
These are people who where passing E3 trailers through their analysis software for god sake.
Journey
Banned
Those are some terrible framedrops, especially for the Xbox One which is already 900p.
Clear weather races seem smooth though.
Keep in mind that Drive Club runs at 30fps all the time, and one could argue that the visual fidelity of this game is right up there.
Define 'most' . A majority of the Need for speed games werent. From Underground all the way to Most Wanted 2005
Thing is, in a sim racer, dropped frames are quite likely at critical moments - eg going into a corner with other cars. And rhats when you'll want immediate feedback to your inputs
I wonder how this game will be playable at all on Wii U? That's the version I'm planning to buy-- either that or wait for the GNU/Linux port and play it on PC.
On the other hand, if they put the time into it I'm sure they could make a cut-down version of the engine just for Wii U that would still look fantastic. Just depends on what their budget is for that version...
On the other hand, if they put the time into it I'm sure they could make a cut-down version of the engine just for Wii U that would still look fantastic. Just depends on what their budget is for that version...
I've never gotten into NFS, but all four sixth-gen racers I own are 60fps. Only one of them (the original PGR) ever even has any drops AFAIK, unless you're counting 30fps replay mode in RSC2 as a "drop."
Can we discuss this? Because I see it thrown around a lot, and I don't think it makes sense...
Those models still need to be rendered...the GPU still has to push those polys...shouldn't really matter if the models are the same..
Did it stop being a hands on write-up from Digital Foundry?
Insane Metal
Gold Member
With 40+ cars on screen and physical damage, di people honestly expect 60fps on these consoles? Lol.
It's running quite decently tbh, I just hope they include a 30fps cap, or that it's possible to have races with 20 cars max.
It's running quite decently tbh, I just hope they include a 30fps cap, or that it's possible to have races with 20 cars max.
It became an edited hands on about an old build including an apology to the devs and publisher...
I'd rather they obsess with locked frame rates than resolution, which seems to be all anyone cares about. At least a good framerate locked 30 or 60 helps with gameplay and feels responsive.
Is there a link to this tech bulletin I could read?
Ugh. If you placed a framerate counter for every one of your favorite nostalgic games, you'd be surprised how many of them didn't hold a stable 60fps, let alone locked.
Rose tinted goggles up in here all around
NullPointer
Member
Ridge Racer V, Rallisport 1 & 2, PGR1, GT3-GT4, really don't fluctuate to the digits of this old pCars build if that's what you're implying though. Having spent countless hours in all of them, they were all pretty highly consistent framerate-wise and didn't give me any moments that GT5-6 had or what the pCars video shows.
Taken from reading WMD forums. There's a limit on how many different models can be used in a race at once. The more models, the more taxing. I think the max is set to 12 or something along those lines. In a regular series you'll five or six different models in the most crowded discipline (GT3). In multiclass you may see some more, but it really is not the norm.
Insane Metal
Gold Member
Damn, at least in images, the XBone version looks really bad. Worse alphas, aliasing, no per object motion blur and no soft shadows, all that at 900p. Meanwhile PS4 runs at 1080p, has a better AA solution, better alphas, per object motion blur and soft(er) shadows and runs at a higher framerate (usually at least 5fps higher).
The lack of AA (or the use of a really lame method) on XBone really hurts IQ:
Also, tearing sucks
The lack of AA (or the use of a really lame method) on XBone really hurts IQ:
Also, tearing sucks
Doctor_Thomas
Member
Screen tearing is an instant no, for me. That's my technical nightmare.
One could argue that the framerate is locked in DriveClub, and nobody really knows how high it would go if unlocked. Given the game never drops a frame even in the most hectic moments, it could well be above 45-50 fps most of the time.
Also, pCARS looks really good, but the lighting, environments and weather effects still look quite a lot better in DC, IMO. The spray effects do look spectacular in pCARS, though, so I'll give it that.
Now, although they both feature cars and offer some racing experience, these are obviously two games that have been designed from the start with different aims in mind, so I'm not really sure why people insist on comparing them.
As a short explanation, it's because you are adding materials and textures to the scene (and pCARS already has some quite extensive material setups and high-resolution textures) affecting memory related performance and it also adds drawcalls to the scene. Polygons themselves aren't the main issue these days, especially on the consoles and pCARS is already quite heavy on memory related stuff so it makes sense that different models can add to the frametimes and it would increase the chance for fluctuating framerate in certain situations.
thelastword
Banned
I agree with this for the most part, I can bend on framerate a bit if the devs are really pushing new gameplay ideas (of course nothing like Assasins Creed Unity). If a 60fps game falls to brief moments of 55-50fps I do believe it's not a big issue at all. I do agree that new gameplay modes should not be sacrificed to iterate the same vanilla game at 60fps solid.
To be honest I believe the original xbox made 30fps racers popular or acceptable by and large, you remember that hot pursuit 2 was 60fps on the PS2 and 30fps on the xbox? that was the start. The first PGR was 60fps on the xbox but all that changed for better graphics in PGR2 at 30fps and this is when that series gained some traction. The Forza series were all 30fps on the OG xbox as well, all these racing series grew popular at a 30fps update.
The visual fidelity of PC is no where close to DC, the draw distance and track detail, the weather effects, the detail of the cars are on another level relatively. In any case, PC should not be about the best visual fidelity but about great physics and a smooth framerate, it's a sim afterall and we all know it doesn't have the budget or the pedigree of Poliphony Digital to push graphics.
They could argue that, but they'd be wrong.
TheAdmiester
Member
In your opinion.
Chobel
Member
And his opinion is right.
AgentP
Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
It caps at 30, internally it has to be higher. I doubt pcars will look as good as the down samples gifts.
In this case, it's the opinion of many others as well. The shading, lighting, foliage and weather system are on another level in DC.
Hawk269
Member
That's because you are playing arcade racers, which like DriveClub and Forza Horizon 2, 30fps is fine. But when you are talking more Sim type of racers, rock solid 60fps is pretty important.
It is not an obsession, it is more of a matter of having a high framerate for pin-point racing that sim racers tend to deliver.
Ok, I'll buy it from a memory perspective, sure
VVV Mars VG
Member
Yes I can only comment on the preview builds I've seen, that particular Time Trial ran very smoothly. I wasn't approaching the preview as a stress test for performance or as a tester finding the limits of technical achievement. Instead I approach any game the same way, I say it as I see it and play it as it is supposed to be played. If every game was analysed from a technical perspective we could all find many issues.
The builds last year weren't running at at a solid frame rate but great strides forward have been made, indeed I don't think frame rate is the issue, more the blur effect which is featured throughout. Suffice to say I will have 60fps videos coming up and until we see a finished version for review we can't really comment further or definitively.
Dictator93
Member
This begs the question how CPU limited the PS4 version would be in its stead. It would be nice if they went into that as well. In fact, if a SMS insider could ask about the specifics of each version on their forums... I would be grateful!
Risk Breaker
Member
You could see how that build was working on PS4 on the original DF article?
Just a correction, this is not true.
While most racers on PS2 are 60fps, Hot Pursuit 2 was NOT one of them.
While the two games were different (and the PS2 version was much much better), it ran at 30fps and not even a completely steady 30fps.
EA's 60fps racers on PS2 were limited to stuff like Shox, Rumble Racing, and the like. NFS was always 30fps (or worse). NFS Underground did feature some amazing motion blur effects on PS2 that were different and worse on other platforms, though. That was pretty neat.
Most as in most. Need for Speed series was an exception but there were a LOT of other racers.
This includes...
Burnout series
Ridge Racer V
R: Racing Evolution
Shox
Rumble Racing
SSX (with slowdown unfortunately)
Downhill Domination
CART Fury
ChoroQ
Colin McRae series
Driving Emotion Type-S
Auto Modelista
Gran Turismo series
Battle Gear series
Initial D series
Ferrari F355 Challenge
Juiced
Midnight Club 2
Moto GP series (Namco)
Outrun 2006
Sonic Riders series
Tokyo Extreme Racer series
Tourist Trophy
Wangan Midnight
V-Rally series
XGIII
Wipeout Fusion
Enthusia
World Rally Championship series
...and loads more that I've not played.
I think that this is going to be a techinal tour de force, irrespective of frame rate. These are the kinds of games we neef to be backing to prevent endless EA and Ubi iterations of Watch Dogs ans CoD.
Give them some credit, they're a small team and have grafted in this for years (leaving aside WiiU vapour version).
Give them some credit, they're a small team and have grafted in this for years (leaving aside WiiU vapour version).