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[ashecitism]

Aside from Direct X 12 Xbox/PS4

I wonder how this impacts games for SteamOS? Will more games using direct X 12 hamper OpenGL or whatnot usage / adoption on Linux and SteamOS. Will fewer games be ported or more using this tech? What happens with mantle as well?

The adoption of Linux/SteamOS/OGL would have been a slow process regardless of this news. Valve are working on stuff that'll make development better and easier, since this is what devs asked for. They said it multiple times though that it'll get AAA support. We'll see where this all goes.

Mantle I'm not sure.

 

[LukasTaves]

To read about the things that he writes about, instead just using them as talking points.

That no amount of processing available in the xb1 could possibly render ray tracing in realtime. Tell him to look at the metrics of real time ray tracing (not screen space ray casting... which is not even the same thing).. and then compare it to the known specs of the xbox 1.

So much so is this reality, that even Nvidia has pointed out multiple times in recent years how ray tracing is very unfeasible for real time render performance on GPUs with 5X the power as the xb1.

The problem with raytracing in realtime isn't much about processing power, but more memory access... The first ray is somewhat predicable, but as soon as you try to trace the second bounce it's a no man's land, and makes impossible to properly cache the data (and accessing memory directly = bad)...

If anything, trading processing power for more on chip storage (Of course, up to a certain point) like Ms did on xbone will probably increase performance on this task.

 

[chadskin]

4. The Xbox One has a dual layer on its SOC, a top layer that is everything Microsoft has confirmed to be in the Xbox One (32 MB ESRAM, 8 Gigs DDR3, 1.75 GHZ 8 Core CPU, and graphic capabilities of ~1.31 TF), and a second layer that holds what they believe to be a discrete GPU/hidden graphic power/"secret sauce" that was hidden from everyone but the "Tier 1 developers" of Microsoft (i.e. Turn 10/343 Studios), and would gradually allow Tier2 (i.e. Crytek) and Tier 3 (most multiplatform developers) to access this second layer when all of the drivers and Direct X12 would hit.

And that 2nd layer will unlock a power of 8-15 teraflops, equivalent to roughly 3-5 Mac Pro priced at $5k each. #believe

 

[M3d10n]

Aside from Direct X 12 Xbox/PS4

I wonder how this impacts games for SteamOS? Will more games using direct X 12 hamper OpenGL or whatnot usage / adoption on Linux and SteamOS. Will fewer games be ported or more using this tech? What happens with mantle as well?

OpenGL is its own enemy, in a way. This article exposes many of the weak points.

In short, OpenGL improved a lot in the latest versions but making a game that pushes its boundaries is still a gigantic pain in the ass and will most likely require driver updates (see: the OpenGL version of the Wii/GC emulator Dolphin).

With DirectX 10 Microsoft split the GPU driver into two parts: user-mode and kernel-mode driver. The user-mode driver is part of DirectX 10/11 and is actually written and managed by Microsoft, while the GPU vendors provide the kernel-mode driver. This simplified driver development since the kernel-mode drivers have to deal with a lot less bullshit.

OpenGL still uses the model where OpenGL is simply the API and the driver must implement all the functions called by user applications directly. This means it's the vendor's responsibility to implement things resource management, shader compilation and dealing with multiple applications using GPU resources and so on. This means there's a lot more places where a GPU vendor can screw up, specially if a feature or a combination of features isn't widely used yet (again, see Dolphin). This is why the Linux version of Metro 2033 is nearly devoid of graphic settings and is missing a lot of "ultra" effects compared to the Windows version.

 

[iceatcs]

I like this cult, where do I sign up?

You already joined the cult. You are in Sony Ponies member group, because you just post here.

 

[LeBoef]

It's a livejournal ran by a user named misterxmedia. He claims to have an insider (but has never specified where said insider is an insider from) whom just happens to know everything that's happening in Microsoft. There's also a user on this livejournal called mistercmedia that posts these insane "findings" and "research" of pictures and posts with him drawing all over it and adding in text to show definitive proof of secret sauce in the Xbox One. Believe it or not, this livejournal has a cult following of a bunch of posters that seem to think that:

1. Sony has paid off everyone in the industry, because they totally have the money to do that.

2. Sony is financially near bankruptcy, having to sell off buildings, properties, parts of their business just to stay afloat but somehow still have the money to pay off everyone and brainwash the entire internet.

3. The slightest hint of Xbox One having a slight edge over PS4 instantly turns into having double the power over the PS4, that DirectX12 will somehow make the Xbox One have more power than the PS4 (contrary to the belief that the PS4 has better hardware).

4. The Xbox One has a dual layer on its SOC, a top layer that is everything Microsoft has confirmed to be in the Xbox One (32 MB ESRAM, 8 Gigs DDR3, 1.75 GHZ 8 Core CPU, and graphic capabilities of ~1.31 TF), and a second layer that holds what they believe to be a discrete GPU/hidden graphic power/"secret sauce" that was hidden from everyone but the "Tier 1 developers" of Microsoft (i.e. Turn 10/343 Studios), and would gradually allow Tier2 (i.e. Crytek) and Tier 3 (most multiplatform developers) to access this second layer when all of the drivers and Direct X12 would hit.

5. If you like Sony at all, you're instantly a Sony Pony. If you post on NeoGaf: Sony Pony. If you post on any major gaming media with positivity towards PS4: you're a Pony. Ponies everywhere.

6. The past week of bad news for Sony/Playstation (SSM layoffs, Amy leaving ND, Jack stepping down) was the greatest week for this livejournal with tons of hoots and hollering that "Sony is finally getting what they deserved", coupled with the DX12 reveal that this is now the "turning point where Microsoft will obliterate Sony", and "Sony Ponies faces will melt". On top of all of this, Titanfall will drop on Xbox One and will therefore instantly win the 8th generation for Microsoft, forever.

It's an intriguing thing to read through, and god damn hilarious. I'm addicted to that website. They even used a picture I posted on NeoGaf in their post a couple of days ago, heh.

there comes the time where you should shut down all your internet capable devices and go outside.
maybe call your parents for a visit and have nice meal.

if you know some shit about some useless shit and post about this shit a lot of shit - the time has come.

 

[Beefy]

Who is PNF4LYFE on twitter? He's spamming random crap about this on it. I can't make out what he is trying to say. He seems pretty insane.

 

[Gamesadict]

Not sure if someone has already said this but, I remember someone from Microsoft said they were considering bringing the "code to the metal" stuff used on Xbox One to PCs. That was like a couple of months ago, and I've tried searching for it again, but can't find it.

Wouldn't DX12 be simply about that, thus explaining why they then included Xbox One on that teaser site, being that new DX12 features would be based on the Xbox One API?

I could be completely wrong, but it's something I remember reading. If someone could find it I'd greatly appreciate it.

Anything I can point to that can prove him wrong?

Common sense, as someone already suggested.
Misterxmedia basically claims that every single new tech that is revealed somehow already exists in the Xbone. G-Sync? X1 has it. Mantle? Based on Xbox One software (which it isn't), 3D die stacking? APU has that too. Lower res games? HANA2, the magic X1 scaler chip, makes games look much better than native res (HANA isn't even a scaler chip, it was a chip that handled the different video outputs on the Xbox 360, anyone who spouts HANA2 is full of it, the "better" image came from people liking crushed blacks and sharpening filter), whatever. The guy and his blog are a running joke here on GAF, I'm sure you have seen those several times here, but didn't know (hidden dGPU, secret sauce, more colors, 4 Teraflops, etc).

So if you need something to prove the guy wrong, just ask for actual evidence, don't take crazy theories or a bunch of pictures with MS Paint lines all over them.

Was it ever explained why it looks like that? Aesthetics?

No one has explained it, it could be a standard thing on silicon for all we know. Problem comes when people try to use that as proof of stacked secret sauce.
Hell, if you look at the PS4 one, you could say it has that stacked stuff too (like dots everywhere in the layer below), but it has a dotted pattern all around the AMD logo, so we can't really see clearly underneath. The X1 one doesn't have a pattern all over the place covering whatever is underneath, so we can easily see more.

Who is PNF4LYFE on twitter? He's spamming random crap about this on it. I can't make out what he is trying to say. He seems pretty insane.

Oh, he is back? Some crazy guy that even harassed the Xbox staff on Twitter when something didn't turn out as he expected. He was suspended for a while.



I apologize for going off-topic here, but I felt I needed to reply/write all of this.

 

[KidBeta]

Not sure if this rumor was brought up already, but I just had a conversation on facebook with someone who believes something crazy.
Is this basically what this thread is about? I was looking for the best place to post this.

Point him to the websites which show that every modern piece of complicated silicon is multi layered.

 

[krypt0nian]

Who is PNF4LYFE on twitter? He's spamming random crap about this on it. I can't make out what he is trying to say. He seems pretty insane.

Tim Dog. I poked his nest earlier and he's been rattled for hours. LOL

 

[Mendax]

Tim Dog. I poked his nest earlier and he's been rattled for hours. LOL

must have really rattled the dog's cage judging from the stuff he writes..

 

[krypt0nian]

must have really rattled the dog's cage judging from the stuff he writes..

Oh no he's always on the crazy tip. I can't take credit. The whole twitter #xboxmafia is entertaining that way.

 

[shikamaroooo]

It's a livejournal ran by a user named misterxmedia. He claims to have an insider (but has never specified where said insider is an insider from) whom just happens to know everything that's happening in Microsoft. There's also a user on this livejournal called mistercmedia that posts these insane "findings" and "research" of pictures and posts with him drawing all over it and adding in text to show definitive proof of secret sauce in the Xbox One. Believe it or not, this livejournal has a cult following of a bunch of posters that seem to think that:

1. Sony has paid off everyone in the industry, because they totally have the money to do that.

2. Sony is financially near bankruptcy, having to sell off buildings, properties, parts of their business just to stay afloat but somehow still have the money to pay off everyone and brainwash the entire internet.

3. The slightest hint of Xbox One having a slight edge over PS4 instantly turns into having double the power over the PS4, that DirectX12 will somehow make the Xbox One have more power than the PS4 (contrary to the belief that the PS4 has better hardware).

4. The Xbox One has a dual layer on its SOC, a top layer that is everything Microsoft has confirmed to be in the Xbox One (32 MB ESRAM, 8 Gigs DDR3, 1.75 GHZ 8 Core CPU, and graphic capabilities of ~1.31 TF), and a second layer that holds what they believe to be a discrete GPU/hidden graphic power/"secret sauce" that was hidden from everyone but the "Tier 1 developers" of Microsoft (i.e. Turn 10/343 Studios), and would gradually allow Tier2 (i.e. Crytek) and Tier 3 (most multiplatform developers) to access this second layer when all of the drivers and Direct X12 would hit.

5. If you like Sony at all, you're instantly a Sony Pony. If you post on NeoGaf: Sony Pony. If you post on any major gaming media with positivity towards PS4: you're a Pony. Ponies everywhere.

6. The past week of bad news for Sony/Playstation (SSM layoffs, Amy leaving ND, Jack stepping down) was the greatest week for this livejournal with tons of hoots and hollering that "Sony is finally getting what they deserved", coupled with the DX12 reveal that this is now the "turning point where Microsoft will obliterate Sony", and "Sony Ponies faces will melt". On top of all of this, Titanfall will drop on Xbox One and will therefore instantly win the 8th generation for Microsoft, forever.

It's an intriguing thing to read through, and god damn hilarious. I'm addicted to that website. They even used a picture I posted on NeoGaf in their post a couple of days ago, heh.

I visit the site daily for entertainment and a good laugh during my free time. I still don't understand how they believe their insider, I remember him saying 1080p patches for AC: IV, Battlefield 4 and Cod: Ghosts.

On Topic: After getting my first GPU two weeks ago and playing games on it, I might upgrade to Windows 8 (if Direct X is exclusive to it) if the features are good.

 

[iMax]

4. The Xbox One has a dual layer on its SOC, a top layer that is everything Microsoft has confirmed to be in the Xbox One (32 MB ESRAM, 8 Gigs DDR3, 1.75 GHZ 8 Core CPU, and graphic capabilities of ~1.31 TF), and a second layer that holds what they believe to be a discrete GPU/hidden graphic power/"secret sauce" that was hidden from everyone but the "Tier 1 developers" of Microsoft (i.e. Turn 10/343 Studios), and would gradually allow Tier2 (i.e. Crytek) and Tier 3 (most multiplatform developers) to access this second layer when all of the drivers and Direct X12 would hit.

Isn't it pretty easy to disprove this with a teardown?

 

[stryke]

Isn't it pretty easy to disprove this with a teardown?

Ironically they're using the teardown to prove that statement.

 

[abracadaver]

Has there ever been a significant performance improvement from a new direct x ?

 

[shikamaroooo]

Isn't it pretty easy to disprove this with a teardown?

Tear down shows something stacked which could be the audio chip (don't take my word, read someone post it on NeoGaf) and they believe it to be another GPU and also hidden es ram.

 

[big_z]

misterxmedia is cboat, cboat is misterxmedia.

Isn't it pretty easy to disprove this with a teardown?

not really because you cant see through layers. misterxmedia posted some xrays that he claims are of both the ps4 and xbone apus. the xbox one does show more layers, if its at all real, which I highly doubt.

the site is registered and run by someone in Russia. he also screens every comment so he only allows posts that support his ramblings.

Has there ever been a significant performance improvement from a new direct x ?

yes, but you shouldn't expect the update to magically double the xbox horse power.

 

[iMax]

misterxmedia is cboat, cboat is misterxmedia.



not really because you cant see through layers. misterxmedia posted some xrays that he claims are of both the ps4 and xbone apus. the xbox one does show more layers, if its at all real, which I highly doubt.

the site is registered and run by someone in Russia. he also screens every comment so he only allows posts that support his ramblings.

Has there ever been a historical case of secret hardware being unlocked like this? It sounds crazy to me.

 

[big_z]

Has there ever been a historical case of secret hardware being unlocked like this? It sounds crazy to me.

not that im aware of.

its possible Microsoft didn't have the drivers and sdk ready for the dgpu by launch. its also possible they didn't have proper time to test what load the system could handle in dgpu mode and they needed more time to avoid red ring 2. would also help explain the large heatsink and system size.

that said I think the possibility of secret sauce is about as good as winning the lotto then getting hit by lightning. theres really no reason to let everyone stomp on your balls while you finish up the software side of your console. if there really was a dgpu in there they would have said something before launch. it would have elevated the higher price point for many people knowing theyre buying a system that's unfinished but with huge potential later on.

 

[iMax]

not that im aware of.

its possible Microsoft didn't have the drivers and sdk ready for the dgpu by launch. its also possible they didn't have proper time to test what load the system could handle in dgpu mode and they needed more time to avoid red ring 2. would also help explain the large heatsink and system size.

that said I think the possibility of secret sauce is about as good as winning the lotto then getting hit by lightning. theres really no reason to let everyone stomp on your balls while you finish up the software side of your console. if there really was a dgpu in there they would have said something before launch. it would have elevated the higher price point for many people knowing theyre buying a system that's unfinished but with huge potential later on.

Even without the 'hidden hardware', what sort of benefits will DX12 hold?

 

[big_z]

Even without the 'hidden hardware', what sort of benefits will DX12 hold?

new effects, reduced overhead/better performance. its impossible to saywhat dx12 will bring until microsofts conference. some updates are bigger than others. I think since its been quite some time since Microsoft really did a major overhaul with direct x and mantel being announced people are expecting big things this update.

 

[Tratorn]

So maybe the differences between PS4 and XB1 games will finally be like the hardware suggests and not so massive like in most games.

 

[Dictator93]

new effects, reduced overhead/better performance. its impossible to saywhat dx12 will bring until microsofts conference. some updates are bigger than others. I think since its been quite some time since Microsoft really did a major overhaul with direct x and mantel being announced people are expecting big things this update.

I am assuming the xb1 already uses a low overhead more metal close API version of DX. They have already said this in interview before and that they have intention to bring this capability over to the PC space. Hence, why XB1 probably already has access to upcoming DX12 functionalities.

 

[fatgamecat]

So maybe the differences between PS4 and XB1 games will finally be like the hardware suggests and not so massive like in most games.

That depends. The 3 OS virtualization likely has some resource overhead that can't be avoided with better code. Depending on how well devs can get around memory size/width and ROP bottlenecks, those might further hamper the GPU.

Depending how those two things shake out in the long term, we might continue seeing performance differences greater than the raw GPU specs indicate.

 

[Chettlar]

that will depend on what dx12 adds and how Microsoft designed the xbox chip. if Microsoft was forward thinking with dx12 on xbox certain features/performance benefits could be xbox exclusive. you can always fake some stuff with custom programming but you take a performance hit. its really hard to say what the new api will bring to xbox but I look forward to this announcement. would be nice if they announce a xbone controller driver for windows while they're at it.

That would be really nice.

I am assuming the xb1 already uses a low overhead more metal close API version of DX. They have already said this in interview before and that they have intention to bring this capability over to the PC space. Hence, why XB1 probably already has access to upcoming DX12 functionalities.

But see there's this:

So while certainly closer "to the metal" than PC, it would appear there is a possibility to thin this out a little bit. Though why that necessarily needs to be through a new DirectX I don't know (I mean, if this is system stuff, why would a system update not suffice?).