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DirectX 12 is on the way

R

RVinP

Unconfirmed Member
Since the playing field has been(sort of) flat currently, with respect to Consoles(PS4,XBoxOne) and PC.

I wonder what hill would the developers need to climb, to maintain coherence between DX12 features vs consoles.

fspm said:
Will I stop seeing DX9 technology in games after 12?
Click to expand...

All prior iterations of DirectX act as a base for the current and upcoming versions, it will be rare to see some of the features being dropped or only exist as legacy features.
 
C

Chev

Member
fspm said:
Will I stop seeing DX9 technology in games after 12?
Click to expand...
Post-DX9 stuff is DX9 features with bells and whistles, and a better API. But tech-wise ever since we got shaders there hasn't been any paradigm shift that'd warrant dropping the old model. Even cool DX11.2 stuff like tiled resources is merely handy shortcuts, a graphics programmer can make a functional equivalent in DX9 with shader model 3.
 
R

rjcc

Member
Unknown Soldier said:
Microsoft actually does like money and the users have made it crystal clear in their wholehearted rejection of Metro on the desktop, especially the corporate users who are their profit base. MS has already started de-emphasizing Metro and rolling back trying to force it on users in 8.1. Win9 will probably go back to a straight traditional desktop and relegate Metro to an optional UI that you have to toggle to enable.

Metro Everywhere has been an abject failure and really MS shouldn't have tried to cram a UI designed for touch devices like phones and tablets down the throats of the keyboard and mouse crowd.
Click to expand...

many corporate users just updated to windows 7 in the last year or so, and no one has any complaints about windows 7. That's how it works. they run way behind. any narrative about a "Wholehearted rejection" is either entirely fantasy, or pushed by people who have never been in a room making a decision about rolling out an upgrade in a corporate environment and are just parroting what they think they've heard. Whatever windows 8 is or is not doing and how it will change in the future, this is silly.
 
S

Sh1ner

Member
I don't expect much from directx12 to be honest but I expect big things from OpenGL considering most of their previous unveiling have been lackluster in the last 2 years.

Specifically because of Valve joining the group. I hope they at least unveil the debugger or how far they have come with it. Low overhead is nice but I hope they bring something to turn heads.
 
M

munroe

Member
Comments remind me of the release of DirectX 11 which was Vista/7 Exclusive and XP people weren't a fan of that.

Been using 8.1 for a while now and have no problems with it. Get with the program, no amount of outcry is going to prevent technology from advancing forwards, you'll slow it down but it won't stop entirely, do everyone else a favour and get on board.
 
A

ashecitism

Member
Sh1ner said:
I don't expect much from directx12 to be honest but I expect big things from OpenGL considering most of their previous unveiling have been lackluster in the last 2 years.

Specifically because of Valve joining the group. I hope they at least unveil the debugger or how far they have come with it. Low overhead is nice but I hope they bring something to turn heads.
Click to expand...

They showed it at SDD: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45O7WTc6k2Y (starts at 33:40)

and a blog about it: http://richg42.blogspot.com.br/2014...showComment=1389950449081#c343074267754586249
http://richg42.blogspot.com.br/2014/01/gl-game-devs-please-send-us-your-game.html
 
S

SparkTR

Member
munroe said:
Comments remind me of the release of DirectX 11 which was Vista/7 Exclusive and XP people weren't a fan of that.

Been using 8.1 for a while now and have no problems with it. Get with the program, no amount of outcry is going to prevent technology from advancing forwards, you'll slow it down but it won't stop entirely, do everyone else a favour and get on board.
Click to expand...

You mean DX10? I don't think anybody expected DX11 to be XP compatible. For the best considering 64-bit XP sucked, and 64-bit gaming should have been pushed sooner and harder.

Windows 9 is potentially shaping up okay going by rumors.
 
A

Azure Dream

Member
munroe said:
Been using 8.1 for a while now and have no problems with it. Get with the program, no amount of outcry is going to prevent technology from advancing forwards, you'll slow it down but it won't stop entirely, do everyone else a favour and get on board.
Click to expand...

Just because a company sells a new version of software, doesn't automatically mean it's progress. Sometimes they go in the wrong direction.
 
T

thehunter01

Banned
Unknown Soldier said:
Microsoft actually does like money and the users have made it crystal clear in their wholehearted rejection of Metro on the desktop, especially the corporate users who are their profit base. MS has already started de-emphasizing Metro and rolling back trying to force it on users in 8.1. Win9 will probably go back to a straight traditional desktop and relegate Metro to an optional UI that you have to toggle to enable.

Metro Everywhere has been an abject failure and really MS shouldn't have tried to cram a UI designed for touch devices like phones and tablets down the throats of the keyboard and mouse crowd.
Click to expand...

No company is on windows 8. After there latest windows vista blunder, lots of company's had to dive deep into there budgets in order to get rid of it again. Windows 7 is probably the next step company's move or moved towards. And a company that did move towards windows 7 won't even look at windows 8 or windows 9 for that matter. They will wait until it's absolutely necessary through security reasons to upgrade, and see what windows OS will be there best fit.
 
H

H6rdc0re

Banned
The real questions should be will DX12 add graphical features, will performance increases support legacy GPUs (DX11) and if so will older games have DX12 support?
 
T

Toski

Member
kmg90 said:
The windows 8 boot times are not faster than Windows 7...

All Microsoft did was diguse the default shutdown behavior to that of hibernating (with a hint of logging out) that's it....

Turn off hybrid shutdown or run from admin cmd

Code: 
shutdown /s /t 0

See how fast windows 8 takes to load up properly...



They don't even try to hide the fact that they are hibernating the system with the connection uptimes not being reset upon "shutting down"


TL;DR Windows 8 start up times = Windows 7 hibenation resume time.....
Click to expand...

Just tried this, didn't make a damn difference on Windows loading from a cold start. This is on a Samsung 840 pro.
 
J

justsomeguy

Member
cyberheater said:
Metro on a tablet makes sense. But on a desktop it's shite. It's like trying to use a android tablet with a mouse. It just feels wrong and awkward.

What were MS thinking.
Click to expand...

That's fairly straightforward to work out:

  • Launch a tablet-only OS: brand fragmentation* (Windows vs. Phone vs. Win Tablet Edition)
  • Move phone OS onto tablets: Cannibalise Windows market share further / WinPho doesn't have widespread mindshare, Microsoft stays as a 'me too' play in tablets
  • Bake touch-first into full blown Windows, allow people to switch between the two: Suddenly Microsoft has an answer to the PC -> Tablet trend: why compromise on a "limited" touch-only fullyscreen-only OS when you can have both? Why buy two devices when one can serve both purposes (Surface Pro).

By putting the touch OS into Windows, it instantly gains market share and public awareness while protecting our core Windows brand in the long term.

So IMO the thinking behind it is absolutely 100% sound - and I can validate that by suggesting "What if Apple let you play iOS apps on MacOS?" - the market would go insane wanting that and think it was a brilliant idea.

So the problem is with the implementation - Windows 8's touch interface was too "in your face", making life harder for KB+M users - hence solutions like custom Start Menus, and hence some of the changes we're making in Windows 8.1 and so on.

tl;dr: The idea was good, the implementation needed to be a bit more smooth.

* see Windows RT for example
 
K

KojiKnight

Member
Toski said:
Just tried this, didn't make a damn difference on Windows loading from a cold start. This is on a Samsung 840 pro.
Click to expand...

If you're running on an SSD the difference is going to be negligible (in which case you should do this anyways, otherwise your SSD has an equivalent of your RAM being stored for no reason... which in my case is 24GB).

That said, the difference would also be negligible on Win 7 :)
 
K

Kysen

Member
Makes me laugh every time boot time is listed as a pro on some list. I turn my PC on once a day and leave it running, saving around close to a minute a week isn't worth an upgrade. I hope MS aren't stupid enough to tie dx12 to win8 or we will have another dx9 situation again.
 
T

thehunter01

Banned
munroe said:
Comments remind me of the release of DirectX 11 which was Vista/7 Exclusive and XP people weren't a fan of that.

Been using 8.1 for a while now and have no problems with it. Get with the program, no amount of outcry is going to prevent technology from advancing forwards, you'll slow it down but it won't stop entirely, do everyone else a favour and get on board.
Click to expand...

Sure you can move with the program if you wan't lots of frustration and have to spend lots of money for absolute nothing.

Phil0sophy said:
There is literally no chance I am updating to windows 8.1 because the backwards compatibility with older games is terrible not to mention I play a lot of my gamecube games and others on emulators and guess what? compatibility is awful with windows 8 as well.

Not to mention windows 8 looks and feels like a tacked on store interface and is a complete resource hog with severe lack of customization, no thanks.
Click to expand...

It always makes me laugh when people make windows 8 selling point:

- but it can act just like windows 7 when you alter this or that.

lol.
 
Rizsparky

Rizsparky

Member
Phil0sophy said:
There is literally no chance I am updating to windows 8.1 because the backwards compatibility with older games is terrible not to mention I play a lot of my gamecube games and others on emulators and guess what? compatibility is awful with windows 8 as well.

Not to mention windows 8 looks and feels like a tacked on store interface and is a complete resource hog with severe lack of customization, no thanks.
Click to expand...

I emulate using Dolphin on 8.1 and it runs the same as Windows 7. In my experience, games that dont work on Windows 8 can useually be remedied by running them as an Administrator and selecting Windows 7 compatability.
 
S

SmartBase

Member
It's obviously going to be for whatever OS Microsoft wants to push, but is it too optimistic of me to hope it might work on current or near-future hardware?
 
J

justsomeguy

Member
Phil0sophy said:
Not to mention windows 8 ... is a complete resource hog with severe lack of customization, no thanks.
Click to expand...

As others have repeatedly said in this thread, Windows 8 is better performing all round than Windows 7.

Where do you think there's a lack of customization? As far as I know it's got everything that Windows 7 had and more.
 
derExperte

derExperte

Member
Phil0sophy said:
That is not the case whatsoever, if i wanted to play gog games or any number of my old PC games they just flat out refuse to work on windows 8
Click to expand...

Can you name a few games? Haven't had any problems with my GOG library or older Steam games yet, only Hotline Miami did crash regularly at first.

Phil0sophy said:
Not from benchmarks I have seen, and the things it is faster in the performance difference is very small at best, unless of course your solely playing Battlefield 4...
Click to expand...

I don't know what benchmarks you saw and when (8.1, recent drivers?) or when you used 8 the last time but there most definitely isn't anything in it that's a 'resource hog' and 8.1.1 should make things even faster. Hate Metro for whatever reasons, under the hood 8 is absolutely fine and I suspect there won't be many changes in 9 in that regard.
 
A

azhar

Banned
Phil0sophy said:
It does seem since the last time I played GOG games with windows 8.1 they have now improved compatibility, I just checked their website and most games support 8.1 now including the ones I had issues with (phantasmagoria 2, Myst ultimate etc)

However how is windows 8.1 now for older games that are not on GOG?
Click to expand...

I could be wrong, but I think this is what they call "moving the goalposts."
 
C

Chettlar

Banned
I wonder if we'll get some really cool stuff we really don't see all that often, like improved water tessellation and stuff.

What can I say, water tessellation is cool. Anything that can get good water in a game is cool. Really wish we could see more of that.
 
F

Faith

Member
xklrd5vt.png


So we will see stuff like that in a game? :D
 
C

Chance Hale

Member
Another thread where people continue to make up garbage about Windows 8, bummer. Looking forward to this, seems like it could be a really big deal.
 
C

Chettlar

Banned
ricochetguro said:
Another thread where people continue to make up garbage about Windows 8, bummer. Looking forward to this, seems like it could be a really big deal.
Click to expand...

I'm really excited to see what new pretty stuff they show off.

What would they use? If we go off ntkrnl, it could be Halo. I'm expecting them to show off something from Quantum Break and maybe Sunset Overdrive.

Or they could just be boring and have faceless tech demos.
 
J

JaggedSac

Member
Chettlar said:
I'm really excited to see what new pretty stuff they show off.

What would they use? If we go off ntkrnl, it could be Halo. I'm expecting them to show off something from Quantum Break and maybe Sunset Overdrive.

Or they could just be boring and have faceless tech demos.
Click to expand...

Expect faceless tech demos.
 
derExperte

derExperte

Member
Phil0sophy said:
However how is windows 8.1 now for older games that are not on GOG?

I read things like this for example:
http://www.infoworld.com/t/microsoft-windows/the-sorry-state-of-windows-81-update-1-236008

And this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/02/14/8-things-i-hate-about-windows-8-1/
Click to expand...

I'm asking you to name a few games that don't work anymore, mainly so I can check myself, maybe there's something wrong on your end because others haven't had big problems either. XP -> Vista/7 was much more troublesome.

And those are some cringeworthy articles, especially the first one reads like the author is crying while typing and on the brink of a nervous breakdown. The second one has a few good points (absolutely nothing new though) but basically complains about having to get used to a new system. And none of them talk about the improvements W8 brings even to the desktop that I'd immediately miss using 7 or the technological advancements, I'd rather read more objective write-ups that don't devolve into endless bitching.

pooptest said:
And this: http://www.inferse.com/12971/microsoft-mulls-windows-8-1-bing-free-planning-big-business-shift/

I wonder if Xbone will get a Windows 9 update...
Click to expand...

Apparently it won't be free, only cheaper for the manufacturers and the limitation is that they can't change the default search (Bing) while the end user can if he wants. http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/windows-81-bing-revealed

But I can report now that Windows 8.1 with Bing is nothing more than the low-cost version of Windows that Microsoft will offer to hardware makers that sell PCs for less than $250. And it comes with no restrictions for users at all.
Click to expand...
 
Mengy

Mengy

wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
munroe said:
Comments remind me of the release of DirectX 11 which was Vista/7 Exclusive and XP people weren't a fan of that.

Been using 8.1 for a while now and have no problems with it. Get with the program, no amount of outcry is going to prevent technology from advancing forwards, you'll slow it down but it won't stop entirely, do everyone else a favour and get on board.
Click to expand...

Wanna buy Win 8.1 for me? If not, then how about you stop telling people how to spend their money and let us make our own decisions?


Since the update to 8.1 made it less metro forced I really only have two problems with it:

1. Win 8 is too much money for what you get
2. Win 7 still works just fine and dandy for me


I don't have any big angst against Win8.1 anymore, I just don't have a viable reason to spend the money to upgrade to it. Win 7 has been and continues to be awesome for me. Sure DX11 and DX12 being exclusive sucks and is a dick move by MS, but honestly I haven't had a single reason yet to give a damn about it, because I haven't purchased any games yet that demand it. My Win7 with DX10 has served me just perfectly.

I'm sure someday down the road some game will come along that will make me consider the upgrade, but for now it's just not worth the money for a "faster boot time".
 
F

fatgamecat

Member
I can't speak for others but these are the problems I still have with Win 8.1.

Can't resize the start screen so it doesn't take the entire screen. This hinders multitasking productivity.

Can't right click a shortcut on the start screen to get the "real" context menu, so you have to take extra steps to do simple things like rename or access shortcut properties.

No more time saving nested folders like the nested control panel, favorites, or recent documents.

Some important settings are still buried in the Metro-only settings app.

The "All Apps" section is a giant mess that's even harder to navigate than the "Programs" start menu folder. It's especially bad if you have a lot of desktop apps/shortcuts installed.

Search is still too tied to Metro/start screen.

Of course installing Classic Shell fixes all of that, so 8.1 is still usable for me with free 3rd party software.
 
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