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[NotGivingMyNameToADamnCom]

It's a different kind of bad when compared with the NFL. The NFL will circle the wagons and keep quite despite some of the things players will do. There's also cronyism and corruption. With idols, they'll immediately ostracize idols that break the rules. They'll be shamed by the fanbase and all that making it really terrible for the women. It's really toxic and more directly promotes bad attitudes in society in regards to gender because it's active rather than passive problem with the NFL.

Isn't it primarily AKB48 with the rules? Certainly they're one of the biggest groups but does that kind of stuff extend to a lot of other groups really?

Also I don't know if I can get behind the idea that things in the NFL are a passive problem. There's a lot of things like normalizing violence against women or normalizing players as expendable with concussion cover ups. There's a lot of subtext to people running out to buy Ray Rice Jerseys.

 

[Dice//]

RE: differing cultural norms and expression as empowerment:

a) Japan is not America and there's no need to say "well there are places in the world where this is the governing norm". Yeah, okay, and? Japan has quite a lot of weird gender norms, including a sort of pre-1950s view on female workplace participation, pretty restrictive norms on marriageability and spinsterdom, very low female participation in government, weak norms on punishment of public sexual assault, etc.

b) It's possible that an institution can be repressive and restrictive, and people that institution can find it liberating. For example, the niqab as an institution is plainly anti-women, imposed by men, and designed to deny women agency. And yet, in some settings, especially in the west, niqabis find it liberating. This is not mutually contradictory. It's also not mutually contradictory for a feminist to complain about porn as an industry while also recognizing that some porn stars are in full control of their lives and choose to be doing what they are doing. It's also okay to not be able to come to an obvious conclusion. Something like Bayonetta is an example of a sexualized character that has gotten strong negative and positive feedback from people who are generally critics of trashy stuff in games.

c) It's a bit weird that the argument is "A woman could find this liberating" when the person making the argument is a man and the person doing the design is typically a man and the target audience is typically male. I mean, that's not to say that men can't weigh in on gender dynamics or whatever. Its just like... you don't need to construct a hypothetical woman to make the argument for you--we would expect the real ones to weigh in, right?

d) It's a little weird to point out that young girls might like doing something as a defence against the perception that that thing is designed for the entertainment of older men. Girls who compete in child beauty pageants often really enjoy doing it, it doesn't mean we can't criticize their existence in society or the guy in sweatpants and a trenchcoat sitting in the front row of the competition.

Thanks for making a 'grey' and non-black-and-white post.

 

[Shouta]

Isn't it primarily AKB48 with the rules? Certainly they're one of the biggest groups but does that kind of stuff extend to a lot of other groups really?

Also I don't know if I can get behind the idea that things in the NFL are a passive problem. There's a lot of things like normalizing violence against women or normalizing players as expendable with concussion cover ups. There's a lot of subtext to people running out to buy Ray Rice Jerseys.

It's not just AKB but other idol groups as well. It's become a commonly accepted rule within the industry itsef, even before AKB became big. Take for example Mari Yaguchi of Morning Musume who "resigned" but was found out to be dating Shun Oguri by a tabloid. There have been other idols in previous decades that have been subject to this as well though I'd need to dig a bit more.

The NFL is passive in that it's not actively promoting some of these problems. They let it happen and cover it up but they aren't saying "Go do that!" The idol industry actively promotes and uses this purity image with idols for their own gain. That's part of how they go after otaku men.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I figured Tom's view on the idol situation may be warped given his tendencies

Umm....?

I think I missed something here...

 

[NotGivingMyNameToADamnCom]

It's not just AKB but other idol groups as well. It's become a commonly accepted rule within the industry itsef, even before AKB became big. Take for example Mari Yaguchi of Morning Musume who "resigned" but was found out to be dating Shun Oguri by a tabloid. There have been other idols in previous decades that have been subject to this as well though I'd need to dig a bit more.

That's fine, I really don't know so I was asking.

The NFL is passive in that it's not actively promoting some of these problems. They let it happen and cover it up but they aren't saying "Go do that!" The idol industry actively promotes and uses this purity image with idols for their own gain. That's part of how they go after otaku men.

Yeah I see what you mean. Still think the NFL is really insidious but I get what you meant.

 

[igordennis]

Umm....?

I think I missed something here...

I meant only that since he likes "true moe" and the feelings that concept elicits on people that like it may make it harder for him to view the idol culture without bias clouding his judgment. No need to get caught up on that, not really an accusation, we all have bias (and this is a guess).

 

[DSix]

Yes OP, too much of it and I might just as well watch straight up porn for a much better pay-off.
Drooling over boobs and ass is not the main reason I play games.

With that said I will never chastise people who like games with kinky themes or characters. Whatever float their boat I don't care. I have no business being offended by games I don't play.

 

[The Technomancer]

Yeah I see what you mean. Still think the NFL is really insidious but I get what you meant.

I'm perfectly fine calling both distinctly awful in their own ways.

 

[KirbYuuYuu]

Yes OP, too much of it and I might just as well watch straight up porn for a much better pay-off.
Drooling over boobs and ass is not the main reason I play games.

With that said I will never chastise people who like games with kinky themes or characters. Whatever float their boat I don't care. I have no business being offended by games I don't play.

That's perfectly fair and I applaud you for this.

 

[schlynch]

It makes sense under the assumption that it was sarcasm. The costumes they mentioned are the only thing that constitutes as "fanservice" that are still available in the Western release and they were parodying your reaction to relatively benign fanservice like having costumes inspired by another franchise (even though the thing you were reacting to was the lingerie fanservice which isn't there.)

No, it doesn't. I said I won't buy game X because game X features such content. The other post said wont buy game Y because game X features such content. Doesn't make sense.

... whatever

 

[Hellsing]

I hate games with too much fan service with a passion. That's just the way I've always felt about it. I find it completely unnecessary. I don't particularly care if other people enjoy that type of thing though. As for the recent overblown SFV news about the so called "censors", I'm completely indifferent. Barely makes any difference so I don't understand why people are so upset.

 

[Dice//]

Yes OP, too much of it and I might just as well watch straight up porn for a much better pay-off.
Drooling over boobs and ass is not the main reason I play games.

With that said I will never chastise people who like games with kinky themes or characters. Whatever float their boat I don't care. I have no business being offended by games I don't play.

This is exactly why you'll never see me in Senran Kagura threads or whatever similar games. I get when games are meant for a niche audience and have a specific "idea" in mind (in that case, lots of hot busty girls in skimpy clothes), but when it keeps hitting the mainstream it when it annoys me.

 

[Chezzymann]

Yep, it feels trashy and isn't what I look for in games.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

I hope Tom didn't get banned for that post people were applauding. I think personal experiences absolutely add insight to the discussion, and I wouldn't devalue it just because we have another personal account on the situation.

 

[Lyte Edge]

Am way late chiming in on this thread, but my response echoes some of the ones from earlier on. It depends on the game. In fantasy games or self-aware, 'silly' games like Bayonetta and Senran Kagura, it's great. Bring it on. If it's Quiet in MGSV, then it's just ridiculous and doesn't fit the game. Censoring the camera shots in SFV? Dumb. Changing the poses completely would have been much better. Changing the bikini the 13 year old character wears in Xenoblade Chronicles X? Makes sense; have no problem with it, even if the outfit they replaced it with looks awful.

In the end, I'll take some T n' A over extreme violence and gore.

 

[FlyingSaucer]

...I hesitated whether or not to post this, but decided in the end that I probably should. So forgive me for jumping back in, but I feel this needs to be said.

You feel this view marginalizes a large group of people, and that's OK -- you're entitled to that opinion. But I actually hold this opinion for somewhat personal reasons, at least regarding the E3 badge argument.

Back in 2001-2003, I taught at two Japanese junior high schools through the JET Programme, and got to know quite a few of the students while I was there. And there were a sizable number of them who dreamed of becoming pop idols -- male students as well, though admittedly mostly female. They would have pictures with them of the pop idols they looked up to most, and while some were more modest (Mini Moni and the like), there were a few with outfits that I'd peg as distinctly similar to Rise's.

The girls all felt these outfits were incredibly cute, and I recall some mentioning that they were even working on making costumes of their own based on the ones they were seeing. They weren't doing this for the sake of attracting boys, but because they truly desired to wear similar outfits, and look adorable in them, and perform on stage in front of crowds, and become famous. For them, that was an actual dream -- something they were working toward, honing their vocal talents and dance choreography alike after school every single day.

Now, you may say that this dream is the result of a society that encourages women to objectify themselves for fame and glory, and that's fair enough. But actually being there, and seeing the spark in these girls' eyes... I can honestly say that it was making them happy. They were putting tremendous effort into attaining the closest thing to pop idol status they possibly could -- more effort than they put into their schoolwork, honestly -- and the passion they had for this goal was absolutely undeniable.

So when I hear someone say that Rise's outfit on that E3 badge is objectifying, or shows too much skin, or is too sexualized for the character... I can't help but think back to those girls, and imagine you telling THEM that. And if you did... I think they'd be absolutely crushed. They weren't even aware of objectification, or sexualization, or anything of that nature -- they just wanted to look cute, dance in sync with one another, sing bubbly songs, and have fun. Not for anyone else's sake, but for their own.

I feel that when people speak out against this kind of thing, it's like telling these girls that they're wrong for pursuing this particular dream -- that they put their eggs in the wrong basket and should reconsider all their life choices.

In short... I actually feel that public disgust for things like this is, in its own way, marginalizing the hopes and dreams of these girls. It's telling them, "There is only one way a girl should conduct herself, and this is not it." And that's not something you should ever tell a kid -- especially when their dreams are giving them something to be passionate about.

To me, it's kind of like when people made fun of me in high school for playing video games too much.

I just think it's important to keep an open mind, and to understand that while Western culture teaches us that outfits like this are sexual and "wrong," Eastern culture embraces them not for objectification, but for empowerment. It's "girly," sure... but it's something that a lot of girls in Japan really look up to and aspire to emulate, and I genuinely don't think that's wrong. Anything that can bring so many girls so much joy and camaraderie isn't something I can rightfully condemn.

...So yeah, I doubt this will change anyone's mind, but I felt it was something worth sharing, to give a different perspective on things -- and maybe help you understand where I'm coming from a little, if nothing else.

Sorry for the long response!

-Tom

Can't say I really care for japanese idols but well said nonetheless and thanks you, sir.

 

[Line_HTX]

Apologies if this was answered before, but was Rise's P4D portrait on the E3 badge very controversial?

 

[Quonny]

Apologies if this was answered before, but was Rise's P4D portrait on the E3 badge very controversial?

Not particularly. Some thought it might be a little tasteless but I don't think it was controversial or inappropriate outside of a vocal minority.

 

[Serenade_King]

I'm ok with any amount of fan service (no matter who is aimed at) as long as I have fun playing the game, like for example I really like Senran Kagura for the fast paced combat and not having to keep running back to recapture bases like the Warrior's games. Now, if all of the focus is only fan service then why even buy the game? You can easily find videos and pictures of the game on the internet. For example, I like DOA and the characters of Marie Rose and Nyotengu but I can't get hyped for DOAX3 if the whole game is just about seeing them in bikinis with boring minigames tacked on just to fill space.

And that are my two cents about the issue.

 

[BGBW]

Apologies if this was answered before, but was Rise's P4D portrait on the E3 badge very controversial?

Not really. It wasn't even part of the badge. It was a separate leaflet for a free t-shirt or something. If you didn't like the art you were free to discard it in the nearest rubbish disposal bin.

 

[BTA]

I meant only that since he likes "true moe" and the feelings that concept elicits on people that like it may make it harder for him to view the idol culture without bias clouding his judgment. No need to get caught up on that, not really an accusation, we all have bias (and this is a guess).

I would say his statements with regards to censorship and such are more relevant here than liking moe, but I also think as a whole the situation is more complicated than his story suggests, as other people have elaborated on. It's not a problem that girls want to become idols and dress like that; it's what being an idol is actually like that is, and how the job is designed to appeal to young girls despite the problem with the industry is worth examining as well.

In any case, fanservice tends to bother me but it usually indicates larger problems in that work with regard to gender as well. I think it's a complicated thing to discuss since it's important to allow people to enjoy flawed works, but those flaws shouldn't just be excused either. People should think critically about what they play/watch/read/whatever, even if only a little, and consider what that work says both intentionally and unintentionally. And then, with that mind, enjoy it, but understand why people might criticize it.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Apologies if this was answered before, but was Rise's P4D portrait on the E3 badge very controversial?

No. Someone made a tweet rolling their eyes at it, that's literally it.

 

[Aaron-Lagann]

Every time I see Zarya it pisses me off that they made her hair pink, it looks so bad.

They should have just done this instead.

I ain't touching the rest of this thread with any length pole. But you are literally an insane person if you prefer her without pink hair. An insane person, I say!

 

[Sophia]

Apologies if this was answered before, but was Rise's P4D portrait on the E3 badge very controversial?

It wasn't. The only thing even remotely comparable to being controversial was Anita's tweet, which was more her expressing disappointment in Rise's outfit

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I ain't touching the rest of this thread with any length pole. But you are literally an insane person if you prefer her without pink hair. An insane person, I say!

Spoiler

I don't like pink hair either. Or pink anything. Death to pink!

 

[Aaron-Lagann]

Spoiler

I don't like pink hair either. Or pink anything. Death to pink!

This whole world is falling to the anti-pink agenda. #TeamPink #Pink4Life #Blowmeonelastkiss

 

[Nanashrew]

I'm a sucker for pink hair.

 

[Dice//]

Every time I see Zarya it pisses me off that they made her hair pink, it looks so bad.

They should have just done this instead.

I don't care for the game at all, but I do admit I like the blonde.

 

[RedSwirl]

Have regional ratings already been discussed here? I know that's not the focal point of the discussion, but it is a main reason games tend to be altered from region to region. It a game had to be changed to avoid an AO rating (such as the case with A Game Which Shall Not Be Mentioned On GAF), you can't really fault the publisher for that. Games get censored in Japan to avoid a CERO Z rating. Actually, JRPGs and other games have been censored for western territories for decades. This just reminded me of Skies of Arcadia -- the English version has a couple scenes censored, likely to avoid an M rating at the time. An older example with a Kojima game might be Snatcher.

 

[Dame]

short answer:yes

long answer: yeeeeessssss (?)

one day, hopefully us guys will realize that fanservice is never able to be equal opportunity, because of the history of using women's body parts as selling material. We could make an all male beach volleyball game till the cows come home. The same weight, it isn't.

That and it is so irritating how it panders. Feels like my intelligence is being insulted and they think I only think with my penis. High School of the dead made me stop watching for how base it was in light of fan service.

 

[Vlaphor]

That must be why the Vita is doing so well.

There's a lot of reasons that the Vita's sales numbers are so low...but the games are selling well enough that more keep on being brought out, so there obviously is enough of a market for them. Sony is even releasing a new color of Vita in the states soon.

Edit: Tired, didn't realize this post was as old as it was. Thought I was on the last page and not the first.

 

[aw350]

For me personally, I'd say no. But the recent changes in SFV for example don't bother me at all. I guess I am indifferent.

What about you guys?

Too much fan service does bother me, actually. Because it tends to replace quality, not add to it. (If it doesn't replace quality, then I am fine with it, but that happens rarely.)

 

[poodaddy]

short answer:yes

long answer: yeeeeessssss (?)

one day, hopefully us guys will realize that fanservice is never able to be equal opportunity, because of the history of using women's body parts as selling material. We could make an all male beach volleyball game till the cows come home. The same weight, it isn't.

That and it is so irritating how it panders. Feels like my intelligence is being insulted and they think I only think with my penis. High School of the dead made me stop watching for how base it was in light of fan service.

I don't really wanna jump start this conversation again but I just wanted to say that the same thing happened to me! I checked out Highschool of the Dead one night on Netflix because we were wanting to watch some dumb horror anime and we were amazed by what we saw. I didn't make it through one episode; in fact I remember exactly when I stopped watching it. It was a point where someone fired a sniper rifle, and the camera does an extreme close up of a bullet flying right by a young girl's vagina. I decided at that moment that nothing of note was gained for the world when this show was made, and that nothing of note would be lost if it was never made. Like I said, I don't wanna jump start an argument again because I feel that my contribution to this thread ended with some pretty positive, civil discussion earlier on; but I just figured I'd share my experience of that show since you brought it up.

 

[TatteredHat]

I ain't touching the rest of this thread with any length pole. But you are literally an insane person if you prefer her without pink hair. An insane person, I say!

If they give Zarya a different skin with normal coloured hair I'll be willing to give her a go, but until then I'm not touching her!

I don't care for the game at all, but I do admit I like the blonde.

Welcome, comrade.

 

[Finale Fireworker]

I find the justification some people are making regarding Japanese idol culture to be deeply flawed, given how the misogyny of idol culture and how damaging it is to the idols themselves is no secret.

If you want fiction, watch Satoshi Kon's Perfect Blue. It's about a popular Japanese idol dealing with the harassment and unsustainable expectations of both her sleazy male and obsessed female fans.

If you want fact, read about Minami Minegishi, a popular Japanese idol who had to deal with harassment and unsustainable expectations of both her sleazy male and obsessed female fans. She dramatically shaved her head in penance when it was revealed she had a boyfriend, which was unacceptable to her fans. Since she was an object of worship and not allowed to do anything outside the narrow parameters set for a woman in her position, and because all she ever wanted to be was a pop idol, she made a self-deprecating and tragic apology video to all her fans for her supposed wrong doing. The Japanese press was just as horrified as the international news, because otaku culture is not at all indicative of actual Japanese culture or values.

As level-headed as Tom was articulating his beliefs, his beliefs are unfortunately pulled from classic institutionalized sexism. The fact that young girls buy into and love idols, wanting to emulate and become them, is exactly the problematic road that led to the breakdown of Minami Minegishi. It is exactly why female representation needs to improve. It is exactly the problem we are discussing here to begin with.

It is exactly the cultural construct that people want to dismantle.

 

[Vlaphor]

I find the justification some people are making regarding Japanese idol culture to be deeply flawed, given how the misogyny of idol culture and how damaging it is to the idols themselves is no secret.

If you want fiction, watch Satoshi Kon's Perfect Blue. It's about a popular Japanese idol dealing with the harassment and unsustainable expectations of both her sleazy male and obsessed female fans.

If you want fact, read about Minami Minegishi, a popular Japanese idol who had to deal with harassment and unsustainable expectations of both her sleazy male and obsessed female fans. She dramatically shaved her head in penance when it was revealed she had a boyfriend, which was unacceptable to her fans. Since she was an object of worship and not allowed to do anything outside the narrow parameters set for a woman in her position, and because all she ever wanted to be was a pop idol, she made a self-deprecating and tragic apology video to all her fans for her supposed wrong doing. The Japanese press was just as horrified as the international news, because otaku culture is not at all indicative of actual Japanese culture or values.

As level-headed as Tom was articulating his beliefs, his beliefs are unfortunately pulled from classic institutionalized sexism. The fact that young girls buy into and love idols, wanting to emulate and become them, is exactly the problematic road that led to the breakdown of Minami Minegishi. It is exactly why female representation needs to improve. It is exactly the problem we are discussing here to begin with.

It is exactly the cultural construct that people want to dismantle.

My one issue with this is that it seems to be blaming some of the fans for something that the rest of the industry has nothing to do with. It's this idea that we need to take something away from someone responsible because someone did something irresponsible with it, and that kind of worries me. There's nothing wrong with wanting to dance onstage or wear costumes, but some fans take it too far and problems do happen, but to say that idol culture is inherently misogynistic seems flawed. You pointed out that everyone seemed shocked at her shaving her head, and that's because it was shocking and not expected. It wasn't part of idol culture, she was having a personal breakdown, several of which have been recorded in entertainment media throughout the world through all of history to all genders. I think that there are definite areas of improvement in terms of equal media treatment, but to say that idol culture is misogynistic seems to be taking it a bit far.

 

[mobilesworking]

I find the justification some people are making regarding Japanese idol culture to be deeply flawed, given how the misogyny of idol culture and how damaging it is to the idols themselves is no secret.

If you want fiction, watch Satoshi Kon's Perfect Blue. It's about a popular Japanese idol dealing with the harassment and unsustainable expectations of both her sleazy male and obsessed female fans.

If you want fact, read about Minami Minegishi, a popular Japanese idol who had to deal with harassment and unsustainable expectations of both her sleazy male and obsessed female fans. She dramatically shaved her head in penance when it was revealed she had a boyfriend, which was unacceptable to her fans. Since she was an object of worship and not allowed to do anything outside the narrow parameters set for a woman in her position, and because all she ever wanted to be was a pop idol, she made a self-deprecating and tragic apology video to all her fans for her supposed wrong doing. The Japanese press was just as horrified as the international news, because otaku culture is not at all indicative of actual Japanese culture or values.

As level-headed as Tom was articulating his beliefs, his beliefs are unfortunately pulled from classic institutionalized sexism. The fact that young girls buy into and love idols, wanting to emulate and become them, is exactly the problematic road that led to the breakdown of Minami Minegishi. It is exactly why female representation needs to improve. It is exactly the problem we are discussing here to begin with.

It is exactly the cultural construct that people want to dismantle.

Insightful, articulate -- there's nothing here that I don't agree with. Why, then, was Tom banned for making a bad or misguided argument? He did so civilly and in good faith. What is served by removing him from the discussion? I refer everyone to the justly famous words of Justice Brandeis: "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence." Finale's post is a perfect demonstration. Tom should have the opportunity to respond to thoughtful rebuttals of this kind.

 

[Monocle]

It depends on the implementation, and whether the game is presented as having any substance beyond the fanservice. If it's not, then at least you're getting an honest sleazefest.

There are no hard and fast rules. Context is important. An example of fanservice that doesn't really belong is Cortana's redesign in Halo 4. She started out as a holographic woman who kind of looked like she was wearing a sheer bodysuit. Then suddenly she's a naked blue chick with realistic assets front and center.

Also, it's ridiculous how some MMOs give women super skimpy armor while the guys are mostly covered up. Each gender should have an equal variety of sexy and practical options.

I myself love fanservice, but as a gay guy, very little is aimed at my demographic specifically. Some fighting game characters and created characters work for me, but by and large I'm on the wrong side of the huge gender disparity in sexualized game characters.

Maybe this is just a matter of taste, but I have no interest in overtly slutty dudes grinding the camera with their meaty bulges or whatever. Just give me some nice athletic physiques with costumes that show them off. And decent romance options, where they fit. I like how in Saints Row 4, your character's sex doesn't limit who you can hit on or what you can wear.

 

[Ralemont]

Insightful, articulate -- there's nothing here that I don't agree with. Why, then, was Tom banned for making a bad or misguided argument? He did so civilly and in good faith. What is served by removing him from the discussion? I refer everyone to the justly famous words of Justice Brandeis: "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence." Finale's post is a perfect demonstration. Tom should have the opportunity to respond to thoughtful rebuttals of this kind.

Objecting to moderation also gets you banned, just ftr.

Tom was banned because he made an argument that was not only bad but offensive, comparing dislike of sleaze to racism and all other forms of bigotry. At least, that's what I suspect did it.

 

[Silraru]

I'm going to take a guess that Tom was removed from the conversation because topic is about whether or not too much fanservice in games bothers people and not about pop idol culture or censorship. Felt the thread's been derailed by that myself. Wouldnt mind if it's discussed in a different thread though.

I would assume it's more like one aspect is enough to put someone off. And if a minor aspect is too much for someone, they're seen as fickle.

That one aspect isn't restricted to fanservice, but things like art style, or even console choice.

That's my guess.

Late reply to this. Ya I suppose so, still though, think it's up to video game creators to create something people want if they want to people to buy the game. Not the other way around. Consumers are not obligated to buy any game they don't want. Thinking about what was said, it rubs me the wrong way as a game dev too, not just a consumer. All games I've worked on are in genres I don't play because I don't care for the gameplay of those games. By that logic, those who buy games I worked on are deserving but I myself who worked on the games are not deserving of my own work. It's just doesn't make sense to me.

Back on topic though: I just wanted to add to my first post. There's no such thing as too much fanservice when that fanservice is targeted at me. I would love to have more games with guys I would choose as husbandos and give them more screen time, more cut scenes of them in action and what not. That said again, no skimpy clothes please, and no need for sex scenes either even if it's implied off screen. In fact, that kind of kills the point because I would have to then project onto the females that these male characters are interested in and I may not want to or care to.

 

[Haganeren]

What i dislike about fanservice is the fact i am under the impression than me, as an heterosexual male are taken for dumber than i hope i am.

Like "ok, you're a male, you are in our demographic, here are some tits !". This is really insulting. I think i hate it even more when it's in a game WITH redeeming quality as it bother me as i play them.

Don't really care for the whole "lolicon" thing to be honest, i hate when they sexualize anything, little girl or mature woman all the same. They are fiction anyway and i don't think sexualizing little girl in video game have more impact than sexualizing grown up girl in video game for a child.... They are bad either way.... Even if to be honest, child just shouldn't play game which aren't to their age and that's that.

Well... Sometime i admit i can take some sexual thing if they are well justified in the universe like Bayonetta for example. The only thing is : I don't want to be taken for a fool. That's all.

 

[Steejee]

Fanservice can pretty much kill a game/show for me in an instant, especially if it's one trying to strike a serious tone and trots out a chainmail bikini or something equally garish.

The funny part is that I love FFVI and SD3, but I had no idea that some characters were basically wearing bathing suits due to the 16bit art. If I had first encountered those games in some sort of theoretical full 3D remake I might have dropped them hard.

 

[Vlaphor]

What i dislike about fanservice is the fact i am under the impression than me, as an heterosexual male are taken for dumber than i hope i am.

Like "ok, you're a male, you are in our demographic, here are some tits !". This is really insulting. I think i hate it even more when it's in a game WITH redeeming quality as it bother me as i play them.
That's all.

I don't know, I never really felt that way when I encounter fanservice in games. Most games I play are really good, so I don't feel like the I have to be talked down to want to play the game. For me it's more like "Here's a good game to play, and a little more to enjoy."

 

[WrenchNinja]

Isn't Awakening the way it was because it was pretty much do or die for the Fire Emblem series? Assuming that is the case, the current trajectory that alienates historical fans seems to be a better option for the series' continued survival than relying on the historical fans that led to Fire Emblem nearly being killed off. In that case, the current trajectory Fire Emblem is on exists because it sells and sells better than the previous trajectory. In this case, someone complaining about Fire Emblem having changed is basically yelling into the void when changing is what allows Fire Emblem to continue as a franchise.

There's a lot reasons why past games after Rekka no Ken didn't sell as well. Sacred Stones came out too late on the GBA. Path of Radiance was hindered by the Gamecube playerbase when it's newly made fanbase was on the GBA. Radiant Dawn came out in the middle of a month with Super Mario Galaxy and Modern Warfare. Shadow Dragon and Monsho no Nazo came out on the DS late in life well after it was incredibly easy to pirate on it. This series has been shot in the leg every time by Nintendo's mismanagement in the last ten years. It was with Awakening they perfectly placed it early in the 3DS life cycle without much competition. Fanservice certainly helped it be successful, but to credit all of the success to it seems a bit much.

 

[muteki]

Have regional ratings already been discussed here? I know that's not the focal point of the discussion, but it is a main reason games tend to be altered from region to region. It a game had to be changed to avoid an AO rating (such as the case with A Game Which Shall Not Be Mentioned On GAF), you can't really fault the publisher for that. Games get censored in Japan to avoid a CERO Z rating. Actually, JRPGs and other games have been censored for western territories for decades. This just reminded me of Skies of Arcadia -- the English version has a couple scenes censored, likely to avoid an M rating at the time. An older example with a Kojima game might be Snatcher.

I think most of the edits that have been in the news lately either are not in games straddling the M-AO boundary, or the content in question should not push an already M rated game into AO territory.

AO or its equivalent is extremely rare as a ESRB rating and represents essentially pornographic material or severe graphic violence, most of the "fanservice" being discussed is an order of magnitude or two lower than that IMO.

Edits to keep a T game from being M I see as more common, I don't necessarily agree with it but understand it is a business decision made by people who care about sales and/or the general perception of their company by the public at large. In the videogame market at least I have to wonder how damning a M rating is given things like GTA and COD selling gangbusters to 10 year olds.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Why, then, was Tom banned for making a bad or misguided argument? He did so civilly and in good faith. What is served by removing him from the discussion?

Tom was banned because he made an argument that was not only bad but offensive, comparing dislike of sleaze to racism and all other forms of bigotry. At least, that's what I suspect did it.

I'm going to take a guess that Tom was removed from the conversation because topic is about whether or not too much fanservice in games bothers people and not about pop idol culture or censorship.

I actually PMed a mod to ask, because I was curious. He was banned for none of the things you guys are saying. Since I don't want to derail the conversation further, I suggest you guys PM a mod if you want to know instead of, y'know, jumping to conclusions, since I'm pretty sure that's the only acceptable channel through which you can discuss moderation. Also please don't PM me about it. Thanks.

Spoiler

If this is considered backseat modding I sincerely apologize and I won't say anything else on the matter anyway.

 

[RedSwirl]

On the "it's just Japanese culture," defense, wouldn't it at least make sense to seek out the opinions of average Japanese people when it comes to fanservice and other similar things in games and anime? I'm under the impression otaku culture is seen to be just as odd in Japan as it is internationally.

 

[The Broken Ska Record]

If the game takes itself seriously, too much fanservice is cringe-worthy. However, games like Onechanbara are fine with me. Mostly because the tongue is so firmly planted in cheek that it has merged into one supercheek.

 

[mobilesworking]

I actually PMed a mod to ask, because I was curious. He was banned for none of the things you guys are saying. Since I don't want to derail the conversation further, I suggest you guys PM a mod if you want to know instead of, y'know, jumping to conclusions, since I'm pretty sure that's the only acceptable channel through which you can discuss moderation.

Spoiler

If this is considered backseat modding I sincerely apologize and I won't say anything else on the matter anyway.

Thank you for the heads-up. I'll do that. I'm certainly not trying to stir up shit, but there's a lot of misinformation out there. Apologies if I've fallen victim to it.

 

[rpmurphy]

I actually PMed a mod to ask, because I was curious. He was banned for none of the things you guys are saying. Since I don't want to derail the conversation further, I suggest you guys PM a mod if you want to know instead of, y'know, jumping to conclusions, since I'm pretty sure that's the only acceptable channel through which you can discuss moderation.

Spoiler

If this is considered backseat modding I sincerely apologize and I won't say anything else on the matter anyway.

I think it's cool that you were able to PM a mod and get a response, but in general I like visibility into banned reasons on forums, since for example, the rules in the FAQ do not cover some of the "hidden" rules or more complex reasons when arbitrating cases like with Tom. But that's just something not done by the administration here and people live with it.

Sorry for adding to the topic derail.