I hope you don't mind a VERY in depth analysis here, brace yourself
jarosh said:
i'm quoting these two posts but i'm really addressing everyone who has made similar statements about my comments regarding "arbitrary enemy placement". plus i also elaborate on the artificial and inorganic feel of the level design as a result of both the seemingly interchangable dummy enemies and their use and abuse as both static or moving obstacles with ever-changing movement paths and speeds:
first off: how is a bee different from a bouncing kremling and how is a bouncing kremling different from a spikey wheel? they all can and in fact DO at some point move along the same half circle path. the kremling can be killed. but that's about it. they are interchangable. many enemies have no designated use. they are not instantly recognizable as performing a certain function, behaving in a specific way. yes, there are enemies with ever so slightly unique gimmicks, but look at a level like bouncy bonanza:
http://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/SuperNES/DonkeyKongCountry-MonkeyMines-BouncyBonanza.png
it's 99% bees and blue kremlings. and the bees might as well be spikey wheels. because, why not:
I've gotta tear your first point apart here. In a previous post I listed a few examples showing that the enemies require different reactions from the player, but I'll just address the ones you have mentioned here.
First, bouncing kremlings are different because, as you stated, they can be killed by jumping on or rolling into. This is a pretty damn significant difference. This would be like calling SMW out for the spiked beetles being the same as the normal beetles because they move in the same pattern during certain portions of the game. Also, the kremlings are silent, where as the bees buzz to announce their presence. Of course this reduced time to react is balanced by a simple press of the b button to roll into the kremlings, testing your reflexes in an entirely different way.
The bees come in different varieties. If you will look at the level you linked to, you will notice barrels before coming to an area with bees. Yellow bees can be killed by barrels, My memory is hazy here, but another kind of bee can only be killed with TNT barrels. The levels accommodate this.
Not only are spiked wheels invincible, but they also are bigger, making it more difficult to maneuver around them. In addition, notice that in Manic Mincers you spend a large portion of the level riding on Rambi. Rambi can kill/bounce upon bees, where, again, the spiked tires are invincible (and can't be bounced on) making the level entirely different.
jarosh said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gj_nrsBYHaQ
^ that's manic mincers. i hated that level. not because it's hard, but because many of the things i dislike about dkc come together here. spikey wheels, because, uh, why not. they don't have any unique properties. and that wouldn't be a bad thing if they were just one of many obstacles and if they didn't overstay their welcome so much. it's a WHOLE LEVEL based around these spikey wheels moving around in increasingly nonsensical patterns. not different kinds of obstacles, hazards or enemies performing different functions, behaving in different ways, just spikey wheels and more spikey wheels. but that's what dkc does, right? it has "one gimmick per level"? but the "gimmick" isn't even INTERESTING. it's just ONE obstacle blown up to an entire level. and just like the barrels or the bees it overstays its welcome tremendously. it's incredibly repetitive and boring. and the constantly changing speeds and paths of the spikey wheels and the bees just serve to destroy the illusion of a coherent world and don't actually solve the problem of repetition since they make enemies and obstacles less recognizable because they become so interchangable.
I think this complaint is ridiculous. The spiked tires are in different formations throughout the level (progressively more difficult), requiring you to jump/move/react in different ways for each one. The environment around the tires goes hand and hand with this, with moving platforms over bottomless pits/bouncing tires/enemies. There is certainly no sameness, but more of it as you are saying. The platforming skills that must be utilized are entirely different.
jarosh said:
and i heavily object to the notion that "almost all level design in 8- or 16-bit platforming is arbitrary" and that my complaints are so specific or nitpicky that they apply to "almost every platformer".
this:
http://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/SuperNES/DonkeyKongCountry-MonkeyMines-Winky'sWalkway.png
is just not an interesting level in ANY way.
Winky's walkway is the shortest and most uninspired level in the game, and is in no way representative of the game as a whole. However, you have stated that you like the idea of introducing new gameplay mechanics in nonthreatening circumstances, and that is exactly what this level does, providing you with an opportunity to try riding Winky before the more difficult levels that he is featured in later. More on this complaint to follow.
jarosh said:
and you know why i think the level design is arbitrary in a stage like this:
http://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/SuperNES/DonkeyKongCountry-MonkeyMines-MillstoneMayhem.png
because from start to finish it's the same shit with slightly different slopes and rises. no, other 2d platformers don't (always) have highly sophisticated reasons for minor level geometry, but they don't throw 6 slightly different versions of the same terrain at you over the course of a level, thereby making you question the validity or appeal of each of them, because AGAIN, just like some of the enemies/obstacles, they eventually appear interchangable.
I'll break this one down (VERY precisely). I'll also take this as an opportunity to contradict one of your other complaints about the game (in anecdotal fashion). In the beginning of the level, you are introduced to the strong type kremlings for the first time in the game, which can only be defeated by jumping on them with DK (Diddy no go) or using TNT barrels (which are placed there obviously to indicate that). Rare is guiding you towards a new gameplay mechanic in a nonthreating way again here, which has been one of your complaints. This is highlighted even more by the DK barrel directly after these enemies to heal you if you lost a Kong. Then, you are presented with a solitary beaver inside its wheel, moving up and down slowly, again, presenting you with something new in easily avoidable fashion, which will be expanded upon later in the level.
Now for the level break down (expect your head to hurt)
The next wheel that is moving up and down may appear to be the same as the previous, only with a slight slope under it and one kremling before it, but notice the tire that can be popped out of the ground. Now you are attempting to push this tire past the kremling, down and up the small slope (the slope's existence is obviously there only to be an obstacle for this). At the next wheel there is a barrel above it that the tire is supposed to be used to get to.
Now the next wheel is different in that there is an enemy that cannot be killed by rolling into (the same that you were introduced to earlier), and due to the location of the wheel above would be difficult to jump on (only with DK if you could), so you must pick up thw TNT barrel and escape the wheel above it in order to use on this enemy. Clearly a different challenge then the other wheels.
Now notice the other enemy right behind him, walking in the same direction at the same speed, entirely identical and arbitrary, right? No, this is an obstacle designed to make it difficult to get through with the TNT barrel you picked up earlier, avoiding it blowing up on the enemies in order to use at the next "arbitrary" beaver wheel, which is concealing (or hinting) a secret area to be opened by this TNT.
Not far later in the level is another round of tire maneuvering, this time allowing you to get Winky, which changes the dynamic of the level entirely, something that can't be shown on your map. Even if you don't get him, tires are introduced to jump over the wheels, there are now vutures throwing nuts that you must jump over or run under, followed by wheels that are moving MUCH faster (again, not shown in a still image of the map), and all having a different secondary obstacle, like snakes below them that if jumped on will result in the wheel hitting you, so you must have the state of mind to roll into them. The last wheel is over a bottomless pit for the first time in the level.
So to sum up this portion, the level is presenting different challenges to you throughout, and actually even accommodates beating it in different ways, with Winky or without, with some clever secrets to boot.
jarosh said:
i'm gonna pick one of the more unpopular entries in the mario franchise (from one generation earlier!) to highlight what i'm talking about:
http://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/NES/SuperMarioBros2-World1-Area1.png
the first area in super mario bros 2 usa (or doki doki panic if you want), a game with excellent level design, if you ask me. sure, most of the individual obstacles don't have a specific reason to be EXACTLY where they are and the distances between them and their respective size are not based on scientific measurements, but they are placed with a specific function in mind, once, and then the level continues organically.
you fall from the sky, jump down some hills, enter a door, encounter some enemies, then climb up a vine, jump down, cross a bridge, jump over two falling logs, down the hills, through the door into the underground, then it's up again, out of the underground and the whole next part is vertical, first you jump from one hill to the next, then you climb up the vines, jump onto the clouds until you get to the boss.
in millstone mayhem on the other hand the terrain basically stays the same throughout the level. you avoid or defeat a bunch of enemies and then you try to get past the millstone beaver floating and moving in mid-air (why? how?), rinse, repeat.
So, as i showed above, everything in Millstone Mayhem was logically thought out, and provided different challenges to the player. Feel free to post another level and I will break it down for you, because I feel that this series was incredible in this regard.
jarosh said:
and no, there is nothing as inherently illogical in all of mario 2 usa as beavers in millstones or spikey wheels magically floating and moving in mid-air along really artificial looking paths. of course i don't have a problem with spikey wheels or beavers in millstones in general. but their use IS arbitrary and not logically consistent with the game world. yes, this is a real complaint. it's part of why the level design feels inorganic. flying and floating enemies in mario games, mega man games, castlevania games etc., even their 8-bit iterations usually have logical reasons for their behavior and abilities, they were designed with them in mind. no, there are no flying turtles, but one of the first 2d platformers in existence, many years before dkc, even bothered to at least give the flying turtles WINGS to explain their behavior and to distinguish them from the regular turtles. and flying enemies and obstacles in mega man games have propellers, jets, wings etc. again, dkc's world might be organic, the backdrops and the tiles might look organic and coherent, but the enemies and obstacles, their use and placement within that world is not.
Nearly your entire time playing Mario will be spent seeing coins magically floating in the air with no wings. Or in Mario Bros 2's case, cherries.
Or flying ice cubes that you can jump on.
I doubt you could name a platformer that doesn't feature things floating that shouldn't be.
jarosh said:
and let me lastly reply to some of the repeated mentions of mega man. while the classic mega man games might be occasionally vicious in design and appear unfair on the surface, they usually aren't. i'm addressing the specific complaint about my supposed hypocrisy: my enjoyment of mega man games and my criticism of rare's design philosophy and its failure to introduce gimmicks in a non-threatening manner. while mega man games often toy with the expectations of the player, teaching them that they might not always be safe from harm, even though it might look like it at first glance, they do NOT introduce instant kill hazards without teaching the player about them first:
magnet man's stage in mm3:
http://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/NES/MegaManIII-MagnetMan.png
as you can see, you first learn about the magnets in a safe environment. they pull you in, but you're in no danger of dying or getting hurt. a few rooms later you encounter the first disappearing blocks. failure here doesn't result in death: there's no pit. you simply fall to the ground and try again. next up are disappearing blocks in combination with a magnet. aha, the player now realizes how dangerous this combination is and learns to navigate the blocks with a magnet nearby. but again: there is no pit. finally there are disappearing blocks, a magnet and a small pit, then the same setup with a bigger pit. NOW the situation is dangerous. but, baby steps, as you can see. if you die at that point - and you will - you have only yourself to blame. the game makes sure of that.
so, maybe mega man has smarter level designers than you thought and it isn't just unfair and punishingly hard.
Please provide one example of introducing a new concept in an overtly difficult manner.
jarosh said:
one vertical pirate ship level in dkc 2: when you fall you have to react fast and catch one of the planks to stop your fall. but the collision detection is still so imprecise that i would sometimes fall through the edge of the planks. then there's several instances in cave levels where you have to make jumps across wide gaps and i'd sometimes clip through the floor when it looked like i should have actually landed on it.
The collision doesn't change, however, so it seems like it wouldn't be that difficult to adapt, getting a feel for the characters and environment. From reading this thread though, it seems like many weren't able to adapt as easily as others. Respectable complaint.
As for this vertical drop you mention, any place in a DKC game that features a drop where you can't see below, there is a trail of bananas leading to where you should aim. This is often used in Mario games with coins. I might be forgetting the instance you're referring to, was it in Slime Climb?
As for jumping gaps, have you tried cartwheeling/rolling off edges before you jump? As I said before, it entirely eliminates any semblance of leaps of faith from the game, as you can actually roll outwards, and even jump back to the previous platform from thin air if need be. In addition, Dixie can glide of course.
Really, that is some good advice for you there. If you are having trouble getting a feel for where platforms end/begin in precision, ALWAYS hit the roll button, even if you don't roll very far before jumping. I never make a jump without it.
