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[Soloist]

I think the difference is that one involves throwing yourself to your death

Or walking through thorny vines(yes I do realize that you can buy hints from cranky).

 

[goldenenergy]

I think the difference is that one involves throwing yourself to your death (which is counter intuitive) and the other doesn't.

Or walking through thorny vines(yes I do realize that you can buy hints from cranky).

Exactly, thank you. To find secrets in Mario, you are never required to take an action which can result in only a) finding the secret or b) dying.

 

[perfectchaos007]

From the looks of the first page of this thread mods are really cracking down on posts that don't contribute to the discussion of the thread.

 

[Neuromancer]

What a great thread this has been. :lol

Although I didn't have the original, I did play the GBA version. Even with kind of fucked up graphics it was still a lot of fun.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

How is that any more random than hitting a random hidden block in Mario? You could play a level one hundred times before noticing it, and all it does it give you some coins.

The difference for me is that the secrets in the NES Mario games aren't required to be collected for 100% completion, so I can skip stuff I don't want to bother with without having that nagging feeling that I'm going to have to resort to a boring scavenger hunt later in order to truly clear the whole game. In Mario 3, the secrets themselves are the reward and make the experience inherently better, like some kind of rare power-up. In Mario World, stuff like lock & keys and secret goals don't add anything by themselves; they're just an unlock method for the real content, and you often have to retread some ground you've already traversed once to find them. I really don't care for that at all.

 

[flak57]

Exactly, thank you. To find secrets in Mario, you are never required to take an action which can result in only a) finding the secret or b) dying.

This was an issue in DKC1, not 2. Any secret in DKC2 was hinted at in some way, including the bramble ones mentioned.

 

[Gin]

DKC1 is not that great. There's hit detection problems, cheap bits, crap platforming crap animation, etc. I still like it, but it's not as good as it's cracked up to be.

DKC2 is fucking near perfect. It is part the holy trinity of SNES platforming (Yoshi's Island, Super Mario World and this). I'd say it's the Holy Ghost.

i agree with everything you said - dkc2 + yoshi island + smw = gaming heaven

 

[Fuzzy]

This thread has made me buy DKC2 on VC and I started playing it today for the first time ever.

 

[PepsimanVsJoe]

This thread has made me buy DKC2 on VC and I started playing it today for the first time ever.

That's good.

DKC2 is definitely my pick for best in the series and a legit good platformer in its own right. Hell I'm even rather fond of part 3.

 

[Oblivion]

Um for what its worth, I think you had a well thought out explanation of why you disliked the games, jarosh (though I think the title didn't help matters).

I don't think I ever thought of any of the DKC games as being superior to the mainline Marios, but I actually didn't have much of a problem with the level design. The bigger issue for me were the physics. They weren't bad but they felt a little off. Like DK was a bit too heavy or something.

 

[Nemo]

Here’s a draft I wrote while I was banned, some of it got covered by people in this thread by that time (bravo flak57 great to see an actual DKC/DKL enthusiast –even I didn’t think of the rambi and bee-spiked wheels difference) so I didn’t bother continuing/refining it. You can just ignore it but I had to place it here and not let it go to waste

i'm sure you wouldn't call it attention whoring if the op was a dkc love fest with twice as much text, am i right or am i right?

Considering it's worldwide critical acclaim, no. Calling it "downright awful" when critics all over have scored it so great means something is wrong here. I chose my words carefully when I said that.

(yes, I know GAFs policy on this: "lol reviewers")

i must have somehow blocked out how vile, repititive, arbitrary and amateurish the level design truly was...

Okay, so your problems seem to lie with the level design here. This will be all about the game design and nothing else.

there is not a semblance of logic or coherence to the level and world design; the stages all seem to consist of a basic template over which obstacles and enemies are randomly placed,

Basic template seems to suggest that all the levels work in the same way and all have the same structure, which the following things prove to be objectively wrong

Jungle Hijinx (first level)
Your basic platformer level where the plain objective is to go from the left part of the level to the right part at the ending. I am going to assume that this is your so called “basic template”. But even then the first level clearly has some seriously different altitudes that spices things up in the level.

Ropey Rampage
Same stuff but introduces ropes and barrels to shoot out of (from what I know is new in a platformer) which make the gameplay experience different compared to the first level

Coral Capers (swimming level)
This is where it gets interesting. Instead of the same streamlined horizontal pattern it gets to be more of a maze (see where I’m going with this regarding your Donkey Kong Country 2 comment?) and you move all the ways imaginable. Up down left and of course, right. And there are many more of those maze levels.

I could go on with this, but I made my point here with just the first few levels on why your “basic template” observation is wrong.

over which obstacles and enemies are randomly placed,

See the speedrunning comments that people above me made, they explain in probably the easiest way for most people on why they are hardly random. If you want to know about it in level designing terms, going from point A to B in places force you to make use of the obstacles and enemies (sometime even combining this with the speedrunning (see the first level where you have to be quick to get up the trees by jumping on the enemy before he walks down and eventually get the green balloon)

Hardly random.

while the changes to the (boring) terrain remain superficial and mostly cosmetic.

Unless I misunderstand you here and you mean to say the changes in terrain during the “world” changes, to which I only have to reply that you only need to look at 80% of the other platformers. If you still don’t like it fine, mega man is also guilty of this (yes, I know you admitted you are biased to this series but that does not give you a free pass).

most of the enemies are seemingly interchangable dummies, designed, animated and rendered without potential use or location in mind:

I'm sure the rats can replace the flying enemies right?

without potential use or location in mind:

Refer to my comment about the random placement of enemies and the kremlin that walks down the ledge. (again I’m just using references of the first “world” as I am not going to go through the whole game just to give you more examples, one should suffice as your arguments pose that these things apply to EVERYTHING in the game).

"let's have a bunch of snakes randomly fall from the ceiling here, over here we'll have a kremling without a jumping animation bounce around, next up are 20 bees moving along increasingly random paths at varying speeds. same for the next level. actually, those bees are getting boring, just replace them with spikey wheels, no one will notice."

Yeah, because that is how level designing goes. This argument is mostly about platformers (and to a lesser extent about video games) in general (especially of that time) and again… mega man

that rigidness and the mechanical and unnatural placement and use of enemies and obstacles are at odds with and stand in stark contrast to the otherwise organic (if dated) looking visuals and the terrain

So you wanted more realistic enemies and obstacles that would vibe with the background and terrain more? How would the game play if it was an actual monkey as we know it jumping on an actual crocodile as we know it? It seems that you’re critique is based on sole facts where imagination and feel does not come into play, do you even like video games? Or hell, anything that is creative?

there is also rarely a real sense of progression as you run and jump through the various levels; not much thought was put into the actual pacing within the levels themselves. often there is no real build-up or change of pace, no increasing feel or sign of reaching the end of a level. many levels just kind of trickle away or end just like they started, instead of culminating in a climax or deliberately winding down.

What?! DKC is EXACTLY that game and especially noticable in some of the more brilliant levels (later worlds). Some levels where this actually is the case :

Barrel Canon Canyon (the barrels at the end, the use of automatic and manual barrels convey this (climax) and when it’s over and it’s an easy walk to the end (winding down))

Mine kart carnage (the enemy karts that rush at you in the end)
Stop and go station

Milestone mayhem (oh hey, that naming tells me something about the level)
Vulture Culture
urang utan level
oil station level with the moving platform
Etc. (first three worlds, and from what I remember it’s even more apparent in the last three worlds)

Though in general you have of course the continue barrel which tells you how much you have progressed and the KONG letters, they work on all levels to give you that sense of progression except in maybe a few of the hardest levels in the game.

Can you tell me what other platformers do have this to a bigger and actually apparent extent ( as in at least 70-90% of the levels) though, like as if you were listening to some (trance or other sort) music where it is obvious? Again, Mega man doesn’t.

and then there's the boring and creatively bankrupt bosses, two of which are recycled later on. a big barrel spitting out a bunch of enemies? that has to be the creative low-point in boss design in rare's development history. and that stupid bird head? twice! once with a palette swap! same with the beaver boss, which itself was already just a bigger render of the beaver level enemies.

True, bosses didn’t seem their height in the first game (second game showed how much they learned). You are right on the money with this.

Tidbit – Rare made fun about themselves for this in the GBA port of the game

most of the "challenge" in dkc derives from the extremely imprecise collision detection, the many "leaps of faith" you're forced to make thanks to the wonky, wobbly, dizziness-inducing camera with a mind of its own.

Either you like your hyperbole or you don't know when to use adjectives. Either way, both ways don't really have a place in good discussion. Extremely imprecise collision would imply that the game would be barely playable, and consisting of all the opinions people have about the game I can safely say this is a flat out lie.

Leaps of faith don't have to be leaps of faith because of the rolling (to gain extra airtime) and even when you don't use that you can still make em despite dying a lot. (casual mario players also die a lot when they don't hold the run button). What Rare did here was evolve the whole "hold button to run and gain extra speed/air" with the rolling action. And in my humble opinion I see that as some good ass gaming designing.

Your camera issues are the first that I hear of in my life so I assume you must have some bad case of motion sickness.

the designers also seemed to think that an increasing difficulty curve simply meant: same levels, more enemies. instead of making changes to the terrain and introducing more complex and interesting platforming challenges, later on you get the same basic layouts with a higher enemy count.

This is the part that gets me the most, and I would actually be willing to list literally everything that proves it so, so wrong. Really? How much did you play the game? (and again, the mega man comment, tho admittedly to a much lesser extent here)

Terrain changes and more complex and interesting platforming challenges that get introduced in levels:

Coral Capers (swimming)
Barrel Canon Canyon (basically air, you shoot from out of the barrels)
Mine Cart (auto walking, time your stuff correctly)
Bouncy bonanza (the trampolines offer new platforming challenges)
Stop and go station (The whole dark element. Also here Rare actually FORCES you to do some speedrunning proving that the game is designed to be played this way, immensely upping the replay value too. In something like Super Mario world/bros 3 you can pretty much just fly through most levels with Nintendo putting very little deliberate resistance in probably less than 40% of the levels)
MileStone mayhem (see stop and go, gotta run fast for your life)
Urang utan gang (jump at the right times with the intervals getting shorter and shorter)
Clam City (go through walls – Nintendo took that shit with NSMB Wii)
Slipside Ride (the whole maze level you were talking about is right here – this is what Rare was doing more of in DKC2 plus the slippery terrain ofc (which was added as a sticky terrain in DKC2)
Oil Drum Alley (with the fire barrels)
Trick Track Trek (moving platform playing around with edges of the platform)

Rare pretty much made use of more mechanics/gimmicks than that was the norm for platformers. You can compare what they have with any other game and it will be the exact same purpose which just a different sprite/graphic. What exactly defines “complex and interesting” for you?

rare also apparently didn't understand the importance of properly introducing and explaining new game mechanics, obstacles or gimmicks. often you are expected to die or fail before you finally understand how certain things work and at what point enemies pop up or get in your way unexpectedly.

Trial and error gameplay designing is normal and gamers have accepted it as so.
Mega Man uses this a lot too, and while with most obstacles they give you a slight hint of what is there, you DONT know what it will do. It just comes at you. No one in the existence of mankind will play mega man without using a bunch of continues for the first time.

this is the complete opposite of the mario/nintendo/valve school of design, in which new gimmicks and important mechanics are introduced in a subtle, non-threatening manner that teaches the player how to respond to them or how they work without undeserved punishment.

Mario – purple mushroom (somehow suddenly popped in my mind since I clearly remember my first encounter with this thing thinking I was going to be some kind of evil superpower Mario - trial and error basically too)

Valve – but does it have to be so subtle that I can spend over 20 minutes over one stupid puzzle that actually has a really simple answer hidden away so sneaky? (Half life 2)

this leads to an experience that, despite not being overly difficult, still often feels frustrating. it's the kind of game that punishes you for not anticipating its nonsensical design quirks and its tendency to throw you into situations that require guesswork. i'd get annoyed frequently because i'd feel like my deaths were the game's fault and not my own.

Over this part I would actually like to have a different discussion with people but nonetheless I feel that you are wrong here with DKC.

Mind giving me some examples? (funny how general your complaints are, might try giving out some more examples next time you do one of these threads hence me agreeing with the guy who said your complaints could be attached to a shitload of games - I didn't just pull that " agreex1000 with attention whore" comment out of my ass). Crazy how mods deemed this a "worthwhile discussion" thread when the OP is basically, as Mar beautifully said, one big blanket statement. And then you have the 4 or 5 people that debunk everything you say and no one attempts to "discuss" it back despite there being plenty of people agreeing with the OP. Yeah your OP might be better than that all the one liners going up against you, bit it's not like it's at some quality discussion level or anything.

Your problems seems to be (like others pointed out and at least what I think) that you and a few others in this thread seem to play games like how music producers listen to other people’s music no matter how good or bad it is –analyzing it to the point as if they were to make the product themselves. I don’t know if you are a level designer by trade (which would make your comments both more understandable (but your ability to actually explain them pretty damn bad)) but you are deliberately ruining the fun of playing video games for yourself. And it that truly is the case I feel very sorry for you (and everyone else that is like this).

 

[levious]

I don’t know if you are a level designer by trade (which would make your comments both more understandable (but your ability to actually explain them pretty damn bad)) but you are deliberately ruining the fun of playing video games for yourself. And it that truly is the case I feel very sorry for you (and everyone else that is like this).

I assumed he wasn't having fun, and then analyzed why.

 

[Nemo]

I assumed he wasn't having fun, and then analyzed why.

Okay, no prob. That was a misjudge on my part, the talk at the time was about overanalazing which is why I assumed a bunch of things. But like the same quote says, he needed to word it a lot better in order for it to turn into a good discussion

 

[Maffis]

I can really see the OP playing DKC.

"Why are there spinning barrels here? In a jungle? And why are there bees spinning in a circle over here? WHAT THE HELL IS THIS SHIT IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE!"

 

[udivision]

Teetris and flak57 have made up for all the initial one liners of disagreement.

What now...

 

[jarosh]

i wasn't gonna bother with this thread anymore. i really feel like i've said everything i wanted to say and i have replied to countless people and gone into great detail about a lot of my complaints. at this point i'd just be repeating myself. i apologize to flak57, who i know also took the time to once again dissect my analysis. i just don't feel like i have the energy or interest to keep going about dkc at this point. it bores me. but thanks for providing a fairly well-thought-out counterpoint to my own thoughts, flak!

teetris: i'm sorry to say it, but your post really WAS redundant and didn't require posting. i have already elaborated on almost each and every one of your points in the many posts i made after the op. it's a bit silly how you attack me for making supposedly broad statements without elaborating on them and then demanding that i do... when that's what i've been doing for the following 10 pages or so! and so have others. so, your post just seems out of place. especially considering how often you seem to read things into my complaints that i never said and then take offense or question them, which could be somewhat understandable if it weren't for the fact that other people have been doing the same thing and i have already clarified the same shit countless times.

however, i am marginally offended by this:

Considering it's worldwide critical acclaim, no. Calling it "downright awful" when critics all over have scored it so great means something is wrong here. I chose my words carefully when I said that.

even if 7 billion people loved the living shit out of donkey kong country, it still doesn't mean that one single person is not allowed to hate it and voice a dissenting opinion.

is that so fucking hard to get? the only thing that's wrong here is that you think that "worldwide critical acclaim" somehow overrides free speech and that the fact that i disagree with the majority somehow gives you a free pass to read bizarre agendas and conspiracies into my opinions. a large chunk of the highest scored games on metacritic are shit. same with movies. and books. deal with it. i don't give a fuck about critical acclaim. gta 4 is one of the highest rated games of all time. fuck that. are you gonna start quoting sales numbers next to prove that something is "wrong here"?

I can really see the OP playing DKC.

"Why are there spinning barrels here? In a jungle? And why are there bees spinning in a circle over here? WHAT THE HELL IS THIS SHIT IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE!"

hyuck hyuck



alright. i think i've done my duty. i wouldn't complain if the thread got locked at this point, but i also don't mind if it stays open if people feel like talking about the game more.

thanks guys. it was a fun ride... for the most part

night.

 

[The Aussie ROFL COPTER]

dkc is one of the few snes games that i always bothered to re-play until now. and i remembered it being awesome. but, jesus christ, i must have somehow blocked out how super, duper, mind blowing and beautiful the level design truly was...

there is so much semblance of logic or coherence to the level and world design; the stages all seem to consist of a complicated template over which obstacles and enemies are strategically placed, while the changes to the (EPIC!!!) terrain remain highly detailed and mostly godly. most of the enemies are seemingly interchangable and challenging, designed, animated and rendered with alot potential use or location in mind:

"let's have a bunch of snakes strategically fall from the ceiling here, over here we'll have a kremling with a cool jumping animation bounce around, next up are 20 bees moving along increasingly structured paths at consistant speeds. same for the next level. actually, those bees are getting to awesome, just add them with spikey wheels, everyone will notice."

that smooth and the mechanical and natural placement and use of enemies and obstacles stand in contrast to the otherwise amazing (if too awesome) looking visuals and the terrain, which while always interesting to traverse still feels more natural than the super dooper-based look of so many 8- and 16-bit platformers.

there is also a real sense of progression as you run and jump through the various levels; so much thought was put into the actual pacing within the levels themselves. often there is so much build-up or change of pace, increasing feel or sign of reaching the end of a level. many levels increase in difficulty or end just unexpectedly in awesome ways, instead culminating in a climax.

and then there's the epic and creatively awe shocking bosses, two of which appear later on. a big barrel spitting out a bunch of enemies? that has to be the creative high-point in boss design in rare's development history. and that hard bird head I can’t beat? Only beat him just twice! once with my sister playing for me! same with the beaver boss, which itself was already just a bigger challenge and so much harder than of the beaver level enemies.

most of the "challenge" in dkc derives from the extremely precise collision detection, the many "leaps of faith" you're decide to make thanks to the strong, precise, camera with awesome outlook of its own. the designers also seemed to think that an increasing difficulty curve simply meant: different levels, more enemies. instead of making un nessecary changes to the terrain and introducing more complex and un -interesting platforming challenges, later on you get the same fun layouts with a higher and diverse enemy count.

rare also apparently did understand the importance of properly introducing and explaining new game mechanics, obstacles or gimmicks. often you are expected to live or succed before you finally understand how certain things work and at what point enemies pop up or get in your way expectedly. this is the complete scenario of the mario/nintendo/valve school of design, in which new gimmicks and important mechanics are introduced in a subtle, non-threatening manner that teaches the player how to respond to them or how they work without undeserved punishment. this leads to an experience that, despite being overly difficult, still often feels like an amzing acomplishment. it's the kind of game that awards you for anticipating its sensical design quirks and its tendency to throw you into situations that require skill. i'd get annoyed frequently because i'd feel like my deaths were my fault and not the games.

---------

now, donkey kong country 2 is arguably the better game. it improves many of the first game's awesomeness with the level design of GOD!!! and introduces a more varied and well-thought-out cast of enemies and a wider variety of level backdrops and obstacles. the pacing still has improved, but now there are some real TOO AWESOME platforming challenges and some more interesting, almost maze-like levels. often these just serve to highlight the precise collision detection, however, especially when navigating the levels with one of your animal buddies. because the terrain itself offers a bigger challenge and there are more vertical levels, there are even more instances now where you'll succed (sometimes with my sisters help), seemingly landing near walls and on floors because you can tell what the designers meant for you to walk on. it introduces other new awesome features as well, among them the new save system that needs payment in coins (I’m bad at collecting these) and the easy reliance on collecting things in general: at least three different kinds of coins, all of which are saved when you quit the game. why? so you can't "abuse" the save system, which lets you save once per world and then wants the "awesome, but so hard to obtain for me, not for my sister" coin for payment? then why offer it in such easyness? hoarding them is very meaningful if you plan on finishing the game in one sitting, but even then: losing all your lives (that’s just me ) means losing all of these coins as well, even if you do keep playing. Thank god my sis can beat all these levels for me.

that said, dkc 2 is clearly the imporvemnt in these awesome games. but it's still just a painfully too awesomee one. and i have yet to play dkc 3. OMG I CAN’T WAIT1111111111111


i know this is a lot of text, so here's your tl;dr version:
donkey kong country RULES !!!1111111111111111

 

[jarosh]

:lol

ok, i think NOW we're done.

 

[Nairume]

This thread got me to go back and play all three games, as well as their Gameboy incarnations. I'll forever fondly remember the DKC I played as a kid, but I can't really afford that to the game I'm playing right now. As I've gone back and played the countless platformers that came before and after it (including its own sequel!), all the things wrong with it have become increasingly difficult to ignore. That said, it is still an enjoyable game.

Donkey Kong Land, on the other hand, is an amazing piece of shit and is probably the most deserving of the title's ire. It does everything you said that DKC does poorly and magnifies it to unbearable levels. It also doesn't help that the other two Land games were almost perfect recreations of their console counterparts, while this game feels like a cheap knock-off.

 

[Azure J]

Donkey Kong Land

*Remembers getting this and being so hyped because at that time in his life, DK > Mario*

*Remembers how awesome the GB sound chip limitations made some songs have really cool renditions and nods*

*Remembers scrambling to find the KONG letters since for some fucked up reason, you could only save by collecting them and finishing the level and cringes*

*Remembers that one fucking level with the clouds on rails and all the fucking bees and convulse---- ASHIJ[IOMR0I5GJ';[PGM5[-0GNNG30';.M,L5P

 

[deadmuffin]

OP must be real fun at parties

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

*Remembers getting this and being so hyped because at that time in his life, DK > Mario*

*Remembers how awesome the GB sound chip limitations made some songs have really cool renditions and nods*

*Remembers scrambling to find the KONG letters since for some fucked up reason, you could only save by collecting them and finishing the level and cringes*

*Remembers that one fucking level with the clouds on rails and all the fucking bees and convulse---- ASHIJ[IOMR0I5GJ';[PGM5[-0GNNG30';.M,L5P

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol YES! At least someone else is still tormented by this. I seriously remember NOTHING of that game except that level. I have to look at that game, I don't even remember if I ever actually beat it.

And what exactly was the point of only saving by collecting kong? Was it a limitation of the gameboy? I remember beating that level only to die without kong making it all pointless. Now that's a game with terrible design.

This thread got me to go back and play all three games, as well as their Gameboy incarnations. I'll forever fondly remember the DKC I played as a kid, but I can't really afford that to the game I'm playing right now. As I've gone back and played the countless platformers that came before and after it (including its own sequel!), all the things wrong with it have become increasingly difficult to ignore. That said, it is still an enjoyable game.

Donkey Kong Land, on the other hand, is an amazing piece of shit and is probably the most deserving of the title's ire. It does everything you said that DKC does poorly and magnifies it to unbearable levels. It also doesn't help that the other two Land games were almost perfect recreations of their console counterparts, while this game feels like a cheap knock-off.

Pretty much, the DKL games were awesome except for the first one. I bought a gameboy just to play DKL2.

 

[flak57]

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol YES! At least someone else is still tormented by this. I seriously remember NOTHING of that game except that level. I have to look at that game, I don't even remember if I ever actually beat it.

And what exactly was the point of only saving by collecting kong? Was it a limitation of the gameboy? I remember beating that level only to die without kong making it all pointless. Now that's a game with terrible design.



Pretty much, the DKL games were awesome except for the first one. I bought a gameboy just to play DKL2.

Meh, 2 and 3 were just remixes of their console counterparts, at least the first was its own game.

 

[A Human Becoming]

Haha, Segata and Aeana may be gone

Sorry to derail, but what happened to Aeana? I know Segata got pissed and left.

 

[agrajag]

Teetris's post is right on the money

 

[BreakyBoy]

Sorry to derail, but what happened to Aeana? I know Segata got pissed and left.

From what I understand, she felt frustrated and alienated by the inability to have a discussion without fanwarz or accusations of trolling, and the rise in misogyny or something like that.

Can't say I blame her.

 

[Nairume]

And what exactly was the point of only saving by collecting kong? Was it a limitation of the gameboy?

You'd think that would have been the case, but then DKL2 and 3 just did the save points like the console versions did.

DKL was just full of terrible design decisions.

Pretty much, the DKL games were awesome except for the first one. I bought a gameboy just to play DKL2.

To this day, DKL2 is probably one of my favorite GB games, edged out maybe by DK'94.

Man, Donkey Kong rocked the portables for a small time there.

Meh, 2 and 3 were just remixes of their console counterparts, at least the first was its own game.

I'd much rather have an amazingly solid portable conversion than a shitty attempt at an original game.

. and i have yet to play dkc 3. OMG I CAN’T WAIT1111111111111

Disappointment in 3....2.....1.......

 

[The Aussie ROFL COPTER]

Lol Naruime, i was making a light hearted joke of OP's post, i have already played DK3 lolz

 

[_Alkaline_]

From what I understand, she felt frustrated and alienated by the inability to have a discussion without fanwarz or accusations of trolling, and the rise in misogyny or something like that.

Can't say I blame her.

This is a growing issue on these forums. I make a stupid or unsubstantiated post from time to time if I'm in a bad mood or such, but I try remain respectful, coherent and detailed with my posts. I like to discuss games and GAF does this better than any other forum. There are a lot of people here with a real thirst for games and a great idea of what makes a good game. These are also the same people who don't mind picking a game apart when warranted, no matter the critical reception.

What I've noticed is that over the years as the community becomes larger and larger, the actual discussion of games is reducing. More posts are one-liners or condecending memes or gifs. There's no problem with these if kept to a minimum, which heightens their effect, but they're probably more common now than actual detailed and thought-out posts. The great thing about opinions is that everyone has one, and it's terrific to discuss and argue over them. No one is ever going to be factually correct, but two people with differing opinions can still have a great conversation and get their points across, even if there is no resolution at the end of it. But too often you get "omg you're wrong" or "wtf" or whatever, instead of countering arguments that actually list legitimate reasons and explanations.

Take this thread for instance. I like Donkey Kong Country. And I wouldn't agree that it's downright awful. And if jarosh had merely posted a one-liner saying it sucks or something similar, he probably would've deserved to cop it (he certainly would've from me). But his post was incredibly well thought-out, detailed and addressed many points, even though I don't have to actually agree with them (though for many of them I do). Instead of people giving their own opinions on the matter and creating an excellent thread worth reading, most people gave short answers without any discussion about the game. It's a trend that's happening more and more, particularly whenever multiple consoles are brought up. GAF is more balanced than most, but it still has its share of fanboys, and it's making general industry discussion more difficult than it used to be.

It's a real shame Segata left, since he is someone who explained his thoughts no matter how controverisial they were. It's what made GAF so great in the first place. It's not gone or anything, but it's certainly not at the level it used to be and I think/hope most would agree. I don't want to appear as if I'm backseat modding here - I just miss all the discussion and hope GAF is just having a bump in the road.

As for Jarosh's post, the part that I really identified with was the bit about levels just ending. It's amazing that a game with such organic environmental design and superb music can feel so utterly empty and dull at times. The game holds a pace that rarely speeds up or slows down, except for some levels which really demonstrate the inspired level design that we saw in DKC2 (a far superior game), and it just feels a bit dull a lot of the time. If you play a Mario game, for instance, in a typical stage you'll see that it ebbs and flows with a peak in the final section before easing off just towards the end. DKC just kind of finds one pace and sticks with it, and the only variation is increasing obstacles. There's not much variation to a level's design and it makes it feel really one-paced. The actual variation in the overall game is impressive, but I'm talking about single levels here.

It still amazes me how superior Diddy's Kong Quest turned out though. It reminds me of going from MM1 to MM2. It's not that MM1 was bad, but MM2 was still such an improvement in every way. DKC had some solid foundations hindered by uninspired level design. It actually feels quite rushed actually. The ideas are there but things like the boss battles and the aforementioned dull design make me think that developing the engine took the majority of development time. DKC2 was the ultimate product of what DKC hinted at but never really came close to achieving.

 

[leroidys]

Playing through DKC2 right now because I'm hyped for DKCR and the consensus seems to be that this is the best one.

I guess I'll just say that one reason these games never clicked with me is that the game logic is just so bad. Hey there's some coins, err... koins off that cliff, I wonder how I get them? Oh you just throw your partner at it and somehow they go invincible, OK cool. Oh heres a guy, I'll throw my partner at him and kill him. NOPE YOURE DEAD. Oh hmm I'm a snake now... thats ... odd. OK, so now you can jump on the spiked bees, huh? That's pretty cool. I'll just jump on these cannoballs to get across this- NOPE YOU CAN JUMP ON BEES BUT NOT CANNONBALLS.

There's tons of stuff like this, and the hit detection is still terrible, though it might be better than DKC, not sure.

They also try to do the valve/nintendo learn-the-trick-in-a-non-threatening-way-first thing, but really fail at it. Hey, jump on this alligator head, its easy, see! Now DIE!!! There's no buildup, just, "see this trick? We might as well have not showed it to you because you're going to die ten times trying to get past the directly proceeding section anyway."

Still having some fun, and the music is great of course. But I just don't see how this is such a good game to so many people.

 

[Tricky I Shadow]

Wrong thread.