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Dorimaga Sales: Japanese Dreamcast Software LTD ~11/1998 - Q3/2001~

Azure J

Member
80. Jet Set Radio (Sega) - 70,285

icokmw.png


;__;
 
Arpharmd B said:
Ok, this is exactly what I always read. Japan was the weakest market.

Again, I wish we had PS3 and 360 software numbers, because Dreamcast's crush 360's and are roughly equal to if not better than PS3's software numbers, in the exact same time frame.

Now, put that in your pipe and smoke it for a second.

Didn't the Saturn and PC Engine do better than all of them?

I wouldn't say the DC is on par with the PS3 as of right now, as the PS3 iirc has more games over 300k, and far more 3rd party games over 100k.

The 360 has also probably sold more in North America than the DC has sold worldwide, for a bit of perspective.
 

Danthrax

Batteries the CRISIS!
Arpharmd B said:
Ok, this is exactly what I always read. Japan was the weakest market.

Again, I wish we had PS3 and 360 software numbers, because Dreamcast's crush 360's and are roughly equal to if not better than PS3's software numbers, in the exact same time frame.

Now, put that in your pipe and smoke it for a second.

well, MGS4 is the top-selling PS3 game in Japan and it's at 690,000.

the information is contained within JoshuaJSlone's http://garaph.info but I can't finesse "all PS3 games" out of it. never mind, got it:

http://garaph.info/gamesearch.php?t...d2=&gameid=&orderby=SalesLTD+DESC&res1=&res2=

The Japanese PS3 Top 20:

1 Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots 686,254
2 Yakuza 3 489,739
3 Resident Evil 5 472,261
4 Hot Shots Golf 5 409,840
5 World Soccer Winning Eleven 12: PES 2009 393,631
6 Shin Sangoku Musou 5 371,443
7 White Knight Chronicles 337,524
8 World Soccer Winning Eleven 2008 316,533
9 Gundam Musou 2 313,325
10 Dynasty Warriors Gundam 312,674
11 Devil May Cry 4 310,012
12 Gran Turismo 5 Prologue Spec III 295,174
13 Yakuza: Kenzan! 270,438
14 Gran Turismo 5 Prologue 238,578
15 Musou Orochi Z 216,363
16 Grand Theft Auto IV 195,779
17 Dragon Ball Z: Burst Limit 163,010
18 Ridge Racer 7 149,648
19 Mobile Suit Gundam: Target in Sight 146,199
20 Valkyria Chronicles 141,589



interesting parallels: Resident Evil 5 has done barely better on PS3 than Resident Evil: Code Veronica did on Dreamcast, and Sega's Yakuza 3 has done a little better on PS3 than Sega's Sonic Adventure did on Dreamcast.
 
Thank you Danthrax.

According to that chart, DC has sold way more software than PS3 in the same amount of time. That's pretty crazy.


Considering that this was DC's weakest region, it makes you wonder if Sega pulling the plug on DC was premature. I think it could have been a much more viable platform than Gamecube and very close to Xbox 1 had they not dropped support.
 

Danthrax

Batteries the CRISIS!
And here are the Xbox 360 top 20 sellers in Japan, for more perspective: http://garaph.info/gamesearch.php?t...d2=&gameid=&orderby=SalesLTD+DESC&res1=&res2=


1 Star Ocean 4: The Last Hope 208,438
2 Blue Dragon 203,740
3 Tales of Vesperia 161,070
4 The Last Remnant 134,611
5 Resident Evil 5 117,069
6 Infinite Undiscovery 112,444
7 Viva Pinata 2: Trouble in Paradise 112,444
8 Ace Combat 6: Fires of Liberation (BEST) 111,773
9 Lost Odyssey 109,517
10 Dead or Alive 4 108,618
11 Beautiful Katamari (BEST) 108,484
12 Viva Pinata (Xbox 360 Platinum Collection) 101,552
13 Forza Motorsport 2 (Xbox 360 Platinum Collection) 100,591
14 Ace Combat 6 liberation war 95,002
15 Halo 3 83,696
16 The Idolmaster: Live for You! 75,272
17 Ridge Racer 6 73,501
18 The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion 72,274
19 Trusty Bell 70,435
20 Gears of War 68,270

Certainly worse than Dreamcast.



[edit] And if we combine BEST/Platinum Collection versions with the original releases, the list looks like this:

1 Star Ocean 4: The Last Hope 208,438
2 Ace Combat 6: Fires of Liberation (both versions) 206,775
3 Blue Dragon 203,740
4 Tales of Vesperia 161,070
5 The Last Remnant 134,611
6 Beautiful Katamari (both versions) 133,443
7 Forza Motorsport 2 (both versions) 131,846
8 Resident Evil 5 117,069
9 Viva Pinata (both versions) 113,736
10 Infinite Undiscovery 112,444
11 Viva Pinata 2: Trouble in Paradise 112,444
12 Lost Odyssey 109,517
13 Dead or Alive 4 108,618
14 Idol Master (both versions) 96,039
15 Dead Rising (both versions) 94,582
16 Halo 3 83,696
17 The Idolmaster: Live for You! 75,272
18 Gears of War (both versions) 74,481
19 Ridge Racer 6 73,501
20 The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion 72,274
21 Trusty Bell 70,435
 
Huh, interesting. But does this say more about the Dreamcast doing decently, or about how badly major consoles in general are doing this gen in Japan... I'm guessing the latter, I think. Still, interesting.
 

ethelred

Member
Arpharmd B said:
According to that chart, DC has sold way more software than PS3 in the same amount of time. That's pretty crazy.

Considering that this was DC's weakest region, it makes you wonder if Sega pulling the plug on DC was premature.

It's not that crazy. The Dreamcast was a failure. The PS3 is also a failure. So what?

The Dreamcast's software numbers were pretty shoddy, but it was the 4th placed system in Japan last generation. The PS3's are worse, but, you know, it's the 4th placed system this generation. Neither matter all that much. What's it supposed to prove to compare the DC's Japanese software sales against other failed systems?

Danthrax said:
And here are the Xbox 360 top 20 sellers in Japan, for more perspective:

For even more perspective, let's consider that if we rank all of the top sellers from this generation, we wouldn't hit a PS3 title until #51. We wouldn't hit the Xbox 360 until #178.
 

Danthrax

Batteries the CRISIS!
ethelred said:
For even more perspective, let's consider that if we rank all of the top sellers from this generation, we wouldn't hit a PS3 title until #51. We wouldn't hit the Xbox 360 until #178.

are you counting the DS and PSP? I thought this was a console discussion only; which, in that case, the PS3's MGS4 is 9th this gen.
 
Danthrax said:
are you counting the DS and PSP? I thought this was a console discussion only; which, in that case, the PS3's MGS4 is 9th this gen.

He said PS3 was the 4th place system earlier, which I suppose answers the question. And I don't really see the point in separating home consoles and handhelds anymore, at least as far as Japan is concerned.
 

Danthrax

Batteries the CRISIS!
Pureauthor said:
He said PS3 was the 4th place system earlier, which I suppose answers the question. And I don't really see the point in separating home consoles and handhelds anymore, at least as far as Japan is concerned.

because it just isn't fair to the consoles =P

but seriously, would you say handheld gaming habits are now the same as console gaming habits in Japan just because the former's sales are higher than the latter's?
 

ethelred

Member
Danthrax said:
are you counting the DS and PSP?

Of course I am, and it'd be ridiculous not to given the dramatic (one might say seismic) shifts the Japanese software market has undergone switching from one generation to the next.

Danthrax said:
I thought this was a console discussion only

The consoles don't exist in a fucking vacuum, and I'm puzzled as to why anyone would think it makes sense to discuss them as if they do. Last generation, if you looked at the total market in Japan, 17 of the top 20 sellers were on home consoles. 38 of the top 50 were. This generation, it's almost the exact opposite -- only 8 of the top 50 selling games are on home consoles; only 23 of the top 100 are on home consoles. How can anyone think it is reasonable to try to evaluate the market while cutting that out?
 
Danthrax said:
because it just isn't fair to the consoles =P

but seriously, would you say handheld gaming habits are now the same as console gaming habits in Japan just because the former's sales are higher than the latter's?

I'm honestly not sure what you mean by 'the same', and in any case all I can do is speculate - for example, I think the jRPG buying crowd in Japan has accepted the DS as the system they'll be going to for their new games., and it's viewed as a legitimate 'main' system .
 

Danthrax

Batteries the CRISIS!
Pureauthor said:
I'm honestly not sure what you mean by 'the same', and in any case all I can do is speculate - for example, I think the jRPG buying crowd in Japan has accepted the DS as the system they'll be going to for their new games., and it's viewed as a legitimate 'main' system .

well in order to compare handhelds to consoles, you have to consider the gaming habits of people who play them to be similar to each other. traditionally, the habits of console gamers have been seen as different from handheld gamers (large, sitting-in-front-of-a-TV experience vs. smaller, on-the-go experience). so the argument has to be made that gamers now either treat consoles like they previously treated handhelds, or treat handhelds like they previously treated consoles.
 

Jonnyram

Member
Danthrax said:
well in order to compare handhelds to consoles, you have to consider the gaming habits of people who play them to be similar to each other. traditionally, the habits of console gamers have been seen as different from handheld gamers (large, sitting-in-front-of-a-TV experience vs. smaller, on-the-go experience). so the argument has to be made that gamers now either treat consoles like they previously treated handhelds, or treat handhelds like they previously treated consoles.
They are one and the same in Japan. Many people play their handhelds at home.
 

lupin23rd

Member
What other titles of significance are missing from this list?

Someone pointed out Rez, and I didn't see Ikaruga either.

I thought Hundred Swords did a lot better...
 

Busaiku

Member
lupin23rd said:
What other titles of significance are missing from this list?

Someone pointed out Rez, and I didn't see Ikaruga either.
Neither of those titles were released when the list was published.
 

ethelred

Member
Danthrax said:
well in order to compare handhelds to consoles, you have to consider the gaming habits of people who play them to be similar to each other. traditionally, the habits of console gamers have been seen as different from handheld gamers (large, sitting-in-front-of-a-TV experience vs. smaller, on-the-go experience). so the argument has to be made that gamers now either treat consoles like they previously treated handhelds, or treat handhelds like they previously treated consoles.

Habits? You don't do software comparisons by looking at habits as a sole factor. If that were the case then you'd say that you can't compare the Saturn's software sales against the PlayStation's software sales because the PlayStation buyer's habits reflected a tendency to play longer games like RPGs whereas the Saturn buyer's habits reflected a desire for smaller experiences typically with a competitive flavor, such as fighters. Gamers treated the Saturn differently! Can't compare them.

Look, the bottom line is that at one point the Japanese were buying most of their games on home, television-centric consoles, and now they're not. It's asinine to pretend that that change hasn't taken place and then to say that we're going to ignore those sales because they're fundamentally "different," and by virtue of that ignoring it's like waving a magic wand that suddenly makes the PS3's (or the Dreamcast's -- the hilarity) software sales anything other than abysmal crap.

It's important for a developer to understand what gaming experiences the larger market is looking for, and in that sense the delivery device is important -- but not to the exclusion of all else. It's just as important to look at the genre of game the market is craving to be developed (and sometimes platform matters there, in the sense that a developer would naturally gravitate towards the PSP with four player local co-op action games in the same way that they once looked to the Saturn for fighting games), but basically the decision to make a title for the DS is a numbers game, not radically different than the decision that would entail making a game for the PS2 once upon a time.

There are 50 games in Japan this gen that have sold more (in some cases drastically more) than the very best selling PS3 game; of course we can make comparisons (and inferences about what the market wants) based off of that. To think that further perspective can be provided by listing out the top 20 360 games is just silly. The perspective is found higher up on the list, not another 120 places down. Looking at how the PS3 and 360 games are selling only tells us about what the market doesn't give a flying fuck about.
 

Danthrax

Batteries the CRISIS!
ethelred said:
Habits? You don't do software comparisons by looking at habits as a sole factor. If that were the case then you'd say that you can't compare the Saturn's software sales against the PlayStation's software sales because the PlayStation buyer's habits reflected a tendency to play longer games like RPGs whereas the Saturn buyer's habits reflected a desire for smaller experiences typically with a competitive flavor, such as fighters. Gamers treated the Saturn differently! Can't compare them.

that's fair.


ethelred said:
Look, the bottom line is that at one point the Japanese were buying most of their games on home, television-centric consoles, and now they're not. It's asinine to pretend that that change hasn't taken place and then to say that we're going to ignore those sales because they're fundamentally "different,"

I didn't say it hadn't happened, I just wanted to hear an argument for why they should all be compared to each other.


ethelred said:
and by virtue of that ignoring it's like waving a magic wand that suddenly makes the PS3's (or the Dreamcast's -- the hilarity) software sales anything other than abysmal crap.

I... never argued that at all. of course they're crap.
 
typhonsentra said:
Why can't he just release a comic or something to tell us how Shenmue ends already? Goddamn that ending.

Seriously. Damn you, Suzuki.

Jonnyram said:
Needs a remake/port. More people need to play this. I like it better than Skip's GC games.

I have always wanted to play Lack of Love :(
 

RurouniZel

Asks questions so Ezalc doesn't have to
My suspicion? Most of the Sega gamers in Japan simply left gaming after Sega hardware died.

All of their major series' plummeted in sales once the Dreamcast died. Games like Sonic, Sakura Taisen, Sega Rally, Virtua Fighter etc. regularly sold in the hundreds of thousands. Now, Sonic games are lucky if they sell 20,000, Sakura Taisen DS was tracking at about 50,000 last I checked etc. The arguement can be made about quality sure, but even when these series' were quality the sales had dropped off, which is probably why they started putting less time/money into new releases, further dropping quality and thus sales.
 

buffi

Banned
When was Tako no Marine and Musapey no Choco Marker released?
Neither is on the list.

The least sold game on that list I have is a factory sealed Plus Plum.
349. Plus Plum (Takuyo) - 777

yELpYwwDH.jpg
 

Aaron

Member
RurouniZel said:
All of their major series' plummeted in sales once the Dreamcast died. Games like Sonic, Sakura Taisen, Sega Rally, Virtua Fighter etc. regularly sold in the hundreds of thousands. Now, Sonic games are lucky if they sell 20,000, Sakura Taisen DS was tracking at about 50,000 last I checked etc. The arguement can be made about quality sure, but even when these series' were quality the sales had dropped off, which is probably why they started putting less time/money into new releases, further dropping quality and thus sales.
The quality of most of those died with the Dreamcast though. Sakura Taisen 4 was a bit of an insult, 5 was terrible, Sonic hasn't been decent since Adventure 2... Virtua Fighter 4 is the only shining gem and that sold well enough.
 

Kilrogg

paid requisite penance
Danthrax said:
You know, people complain about Nintendo game sales dominating third parties' like it's a unique case, but look at this top 30:

[games]

it's almost all Sega, with some Capcom sprinkled in for good measure. (22 Sega titles, 4 Capcom, 4 others)


Well, I guess some people still don't realize that both SEGA and Nintendo were software and hardware-integrated companies with talented developers (Nintendo still is). The same would happen with Sony and Microsoft with those parameters.

I'm sorry I meant "Only X's games sell on X consoles!!!1!!11!".

Also, wow at Seaman being the best-selling DC game. It certainly was a unique game, but it's so weird that I didn't expect it to sell that well.
 
Danthrax said:
You know, people complain about Nintendo game sales dominating third parties' like it's a unique case, but look at this top 30:

01. Seaman (Sega) - 539,367
02. Sonic Adventure (Sega) - 475,152

03. Biohazard CODE: Veronica (Capcom) - 469,813
04. Sega Rally 2 (Sega) - 421,836
05. Shenme (Sega) - 392,111
06. Virtua Fighter 3tb (Sega) - 373,749
07. J League Pro Soccer Club oh Tsukurou! (Sega) - 369,116

08. Soul Calibur (Namco) - 359,346
09. Virtua Striker 2 Ver. 2000.1 (SEGA) - 319,825
10. Sakura Taien 3 (Sega) - 314,597

11. The House of the Dead 2 (Sega) - 277,351
12. Pro Yakyuu Team o Tsukurou! (Sega) - 240,305

13. Grandia II (Game Arts) - 206,448
14. Virtual On: Oratorio Tangram (Sega) - 180,460
15. Sega GT Homologation Special (Sega) - 178,956
16. Phantasy Star Online (Sega) - 178,747

17. Shutoko Battle (Genki) - 177,605
18. Soccer Tsuku Tokudai Gou ~J League Pro Soccer Club o Tsukurou~ (Sega) - 177,141
19. Space Channel 5 (Sega) - 177,011
20. Sakura Taisen (Sega) - 171,296


21. Power Stone (Capcom) - 169,795
22. Shinkisekai Evolution ((Evolution: The World of Sacred Device)) (Sega/ESP/Sting) - 162,396
23. Crazy Taxi (Sega) - 160,515

24. Marvel vs. Capcom 2: New Age of Heroes (Capcom) - 160,322
25. Phantasy Star Online Ver. 2 (Sega) - 148,881
26. Marvel vs. Capcom: Clash of Super Heroes (Capcom) - 146,454
27. Get Bass (Sega) - 145,535
28. Blue Stinger (Sega) - 140,135

29. D2 (WARP) - 133,955
30. Sakura Taisen 2 (Sega) - 136,875

it's almost all Sega, with some Capcom sprinkled in for good measure. (22 Sega titles, 4 Capcom, 4 others)

Just about to post this.
 

RurouniZel

Asks questions so Ezalc doesn't have to
Aaron said:
The quality of most of those died with the Dreamcast though. Sakura Taisen 4 was a bit of an insult, 5 was terrible, Sonic hasn't been decent since Adventure 2... Virtua Fighter 4 is the only shining gem and that sold well enough.

I agree that 4 was an insult, but disagree on 5. It's not the best, but not bad either (4 was much worse!)
 

Aaron

Member
RurouniZel said:
I agree that 4 was an insult, but disagree on 5. It's not the best, but not bad either (4 was much worse!)
The difference is I finished 4. I didn't make it to chapter 3 in 5. It was just awful.

Though in honor of this thread, I decided to play a DC game. This one in fact:

271. Heavy Metal Geomatrix (Capcom) - 5,812
Capcom should bring this to XBLA. It's still really good. Plays like a mix of Outtrigger and VOOT with a series of Metal Gear style virtual missions on the side. Though honestly, Capcom should re-release pretty much all of their arcade to dreamcast ports.
 

GhostSeed

Member
After a bit of research the cut off point for Dorigama's tracking is 08/31/2001. All games released after that aren't included.

Sega still has a great DC catalog on their site. All the games on pages 12 (09/2001) throught page 1 are the ones not included on Dorimaga's list.

http://sega.jp/cgi-bin/csALL.cgi?rpp=20&sr=220&tt=&sy=&gr=&hw=10&fw=&sort=2


---

buffi said:
When was Tako no Marine and Musapey no Choco Marker released?
Neither is on the list.

Tako was 05.16.2002
http://sega.jp/dc/020501/

And GameFAQ's says Musapey's was 12.26.2002.
 

RurouniZel

Asks questions so Ezalc doesn't have to
Aaron said:
Capcom should bring this to XBLA. It's still really good. Plays like a mix of Outtrigger and VOOT with a series of Metal Gear style virtual missions on the side. Though honestly, Capcom should re-release pretty much all of their arcade to dreamcast ports.

agreed, it's an awesome game! Lots of good DC games would work well on XBLA.
 
Danthrax said:
well, MGS4 is the top-selling PS3 game in Japan and it's at 690,000.

the information is contained within JoshuaJSlone's http://garaph.info but I can't finesse "all PS3 games" out of it. never mind, got it:

http://garaph.info/gamesearch.php?t...d2=&gameid=&orderby=SalesLTD+DESC&res1=&res2=

The Japanese PS3 Top 20:

1 Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots 686,254
2 Yakuza 3 489,739
3 Resident Evil 5 472,261
4 Hot Shots Golf 5 409,840
5 World Soccer Winning Eleven 12: PES 2009 393,631
6 Shin Sangoku Musou 5 371,443
7 White Knight Chronicles 337,524
8 World Soccer Winning Eleven 2008 316,533
9 Gundam Musou 2 313,325
10 Dynasty Warriors Gundam 312,674
11 Devil May Cry 4 310,012
12 Gran Turismo 5 Prologue Spec III 295,174
13 Yakuza: Kenzan! 270,438
14 Gran Turismo 5 Prologue 238,578
15 Musou Orochi Z 216,363
16 Grand Theft Auto IV 195,779
17 Dragon Ball Z: Burst Limit 163,010
18 Ridge Racer 7 149,648
19 Mobile Suit Gundam: Target in Sight 146,199
20 Valkyria Chronicles 141,589



interesting parallels: Resident Evil 5 has done barely better on PS3 than Resident Evil: Code Veronica did on Dreamcast, and Sega's Yakuza 3 has done a little better on PS3 than Sega's Sonic Adventure did on Dreamcast.

These numbers seem a little off though, are you sure they include "BEST" re-releases?
 
test_account said:
How does a game only sells 87 copies? :(

First, April 2001 release, and this list is as of summer 2001; it had only been out for a few months.

Second, the game is horrible. Don't be sad.

Danthrax said:
I didn't say it hadn't happened, I just wanted to hear an argument for why they should all be compared to each other.

Why shouldn't they? They're all game systems, why shouldn't they be compared to eachother? I think they should... I mean, handhelds are different from consoles which are different from PCs, but of course they all can and should be compared in some way sales-wise. I think this should always be true really, but it's even more true in a case where a handheld is the main platform of the generation... or a computer, for a case like Europe in the '80s for example.
 

Cygnus X-1

Member
Danthrax said:
You know, people complain about Nintendo game sales dominating third parties' like it's a unique case, but look at this top 30:

01. Seaman (Sega) - 539,367
02. Sonic Adventure (Sega) - 475,152

03. Biohazard CODE: Veronica (Capcom) - 469,813
04. Sega Rally 2 (Sega) - 421,836
05. Shenme (Sega) - 392,111
06. Virtua Fighter 3tb (Sega) - 373,749
07. J League Pro Soccer Club oh Tsukurou! (Sega) - 369,116

08. Soul Calibur (Namco) - 359,346
09. Virtua Striker 2 Ver. 2000.1 (SEGA) - 319,825
10. Sakura Taien 3 (Sega) - 314,597

11. The House of the Dead 2 (Sega) - 277,351
12. Pro Yakyuu Team o Tsukurou! (Sega) - 240,305

13. Grandia II (Game Arts) - 206,448
14. Virtual On: Oratorio Tangram (Sega) - 180,460
15. Sega GT Homologation Special (Sega) - 178,956
16. Phantasy Star Online (Sega) - 178,747

17. Shutoko Battle (Genki) - 177,605
18. Soccer Tsuku Tokudai Gou ~J League Pro Soccer Club o Tsukurou~ (Sega) - 177,141
19. Space Channel 5 (Sega) - 177,011
20. Sakura Taisen (Sega) - 171,296


21. Power Stone (Capcom) - 169,795
22. Shinkisekai Evolution ((Evolution: The World of Sacred Device)) (Sega/ESP/Sting) - 162,396
23. Crazy Taxi (Sega) - 160,515

24. Marvel vs. Capcom 2: New Age of Heroes (Capcom) - 160,322
25. Phantasy Star Online Ver. 2 (Sega) - 148,881
26. Marvel vs. Capcom: Clash of Super Heroes (Capcom) - 146,454
27. Get Bass (Sega) - 145,535
28. Blue Stinger (Sega) - 140,135

29. D2 (WARP) - 133,955
30. Sakura Taisen 2 (Sega) - 136,875

it's almost all Sega, with some Capcom sprinkled in for good measure. (22 Sega titles, 4 Capcom, 4 others)

Thanks for your work. I intended to do the same. It's quite impressive. And Seaman > main Sonic game on the system? Quite surprising, actually.
 

Danthrax

Batteries the CRISIS!
Miburou said:
I can't find Sakura Taisen 4 on that chart. I thought it sold relatively well? (~300K)

The chart is for games released through Aug. 31, 2001. ST4 was released March 21, 2002.

aaaaaand beaten by Donny =P
 
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