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Dragon's Crown (Vanillaware PS3/PSV) Sorceress Trailer
- Thread starter Takao
- Start date
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
Well, how would you feel about the sorceress if her appearance should be (not suggesting it is) justified in-universe?
I ask not as a challenge but because I respect your opinion even when I don't agree.
Also, are we arguing about whether this is sexist or misogynist? One is implicit to the other, but not necessarily the other way around.
Look, to boil down what I'm trying to say:
1) I don't have a problem with you if you like this character's design. I also don't hate the character herself. And I certainly wouldn't hate someone who looked this way in real life. I don't hate people based on how they look, attractive or otherwise.
2) However, the design sends a message: This is what men like, and this is what women should look like to be attractive. It sends this message because it is an extreme version of other depictions sending the same message, which yes, includes a number of supermodels.
3) Women are affected differently than men in this regard, because women live in a society where they are constantly bombarded by such messages. Guys can see Fabio on a romance cover and usually won't be bothered by it because they live in a society where the average sitcom has a homely guy married to a supermodel babe (I.E. "King of Queens," etc).
4) If someone looks like the Sorceress, they wouldn't feel diminished by someone wanting a more "modest" character instead, because the whole point is to not make -other- women feel inadequate. Wanting a modest character doesn't mean they find the busty character undesirable, and in a society where boobs are celebrated, no busty woman would ever think that. They're just concerned for the feelings of women with smaller builds.
5) And again, women ARE affected. They're affected in ways men will never be, due to the very nature of society. The reason this design, then, makes me uncomfortable, is because I feel it represents, more brazenly than most, the message that woman should look this way. It's true there are many different builds of women in this game. But this is the one most overtly pushing a sexual quality (boobs spilling on a skeleton's skull in one piece of art, for example).
Again, if you like the design choice, fine. I'm just explaining where the concern comes from. That's all.
Also, my avatar refers to all tits! Nipples ahoy!
1) I don't have a problem with you if you like this character's design. I also don't hate the character herself. And I certainly wouldn't hate someone who looked this way in real life. I don't hate people based on how they look, attractive or otherwise.
2) However, the design sends a message: This is what men like, and this is what women should look like to be attractive. It sends this message because it is an extreme version of other depictions sending the same message, which yes, includes a number of supermodels.
3) Women are affected differently than men in this regard, because women live in a society where they are constantly bombarded by such messages. Guys can see Fabio on a romance cover and usually won't be bothered by it because they live in a society where the average sitcom has a homely guy married to a supermodel babe (I.E. "King of Queens," etc).
4) If someone looks like the Sorceress, they wouldn't feel diminished by someone wanting a more "modest" character instead, because the whole point is to not make -other- women feel inadequate. Wanting a modest character doesn't mean they find the busty character undesirable, and in a society where boobs are celebrated, no busty woman would ever think that. They're just concerned for the feelings of women with smaller builds.
5) And again, women ARE affected. They're affected in ways men will never be, due to the very nature of society. The reason this design, then, makes me uncomfortable, is because I feel it represents, more brazenly than most, the message that woman should look this way. It's true there are many different builds of women in this game. But this is the one most overtly pushing a sexual quality (boobs spilling on a skeleton's skull in one piece of art, for example).
Again, if you like the design choice, fine. I'm just explaining where the concern comes from. That's all.
Also, my avatar refers to all tits! Nipples ahoy!
I don't even get why their appearance has to be justified...
Do girls with large breasts in our own universe have to be justified? I dare the white knights to walk up to someone with unusual proportions and tell them their appearance is unjustified.
JordanN
Banned
Oh no, please don't speak on behalf of every artist.
I like to draw characters that vary in "attractiveness" but not once have I considered telling a woman she must or feel compelled to look like it.
Karsticles
Member
While I love Kamitani, Ayami already draws gorgeous women:
http://gatitoamarillo.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/nohime-sw3-art.jpg
http://s4.zerochan.net/Succubus.(castlevania).full.295075.jpg
http://i.neoseeker.com/ca/castlevania_ps2_conceptart_5AUQB.jpg
Someone should tell her to stop objectifying women.
Why can't you use the archer girl and the amazon girl as examples too? Why would they add them in with their own odd proportions? Are they saying that's what men like too? If that's the case then are you saying video game developers should design characters that people don't visually like?
You are also discounting the fact that some people ACTUALLY LOOK THAT WAY.
I'm not speaking to the author's intent. I'm speaking to how most women would interpret this. Most women would look at art of the sorceress, and see it as the statement, "Big boobs are what's desirable in women."
I don't know if that's how the artist feels. But it's what most women would probably think looking at the art. And the more they see messages like this, the more it weighs on them. Hence why so many girls get implants now.
Karsticles
Member
What do women think when they see the Elf and Amazon, then? "That's nice"?
No it doesn't. I've covered this. The Sorceress' design is exaggerated to the point of parody. If someone can't distinguish between parody and reality then they have bigger issues than the media surrounding them.
You're picking and choosing a specific subset of the genre known for the "average guy hot wife" setup. You can pick any number of other popular shows to prove this idea wrong. Angel, Firefly, House, Sherlock, Game of Thrones, those vampire shows, Tudor, the list goes on.
There's a slimmer Archer they can identify with. That's the beauty of the designs in this game. If you feel the need to express your self-identity through the game, most of the ground is covered.
Kamitani is an artist first and foremost. This is not the time or place to bring up this debate. There are a whole host of other games that have far less reasons to sexualize their characters than a Kamitani game. The only reason the reaction to this thread is so strong is because her design is so ludicrous. Many more typical examples of pandering are completely overlooked because they're not as attention grabbing.
I'm talking about the slow-motion-wet-T-shirt-ultra-cleavage scenarios seen in many a college movie, beer commercial, etc. Those kinds of supermodels. Depictions of sexual attractiveness frequently reduce a women to her tits. When women see this all the time, many start to feel their self-esteem erode, because they feel they don't measure up.
You're objectifying all women, then.
PepsimanVsJoe
Member
I don't think most women desire a 16-pack and horse-crushing thighs.
Not sure why they'd appreciate the massive boobs either. I mean that severely limits the kind of clothes they'd be able to wear, not to mention the custom bras, and all sorts of other issues.
I can't imagine any woman reacting in any way other than with laughter and finding it hilarious to be honest. I seriously doubt most women would be offended. It's just so odd a thread can get so many replies based solely on the fact of boobs. I mean, the fuck is wrong with you people? Their not that big of a deal. It's not as if big boobs are exclusive to fantasy. Are women just not allowed to have boobs or something?
You could say the same thing about the portrayal of thin women in media. You don't think that's a blow to the self esteems of overweight women? You're focusing on large breasts because YOU find that desirable in a woman.
JordanN
Banned
There's something flawed in that. Like, if more and more characters were drawn as ugly, does it become desirable (even when ugliness is already hated), or is it just something the individual imagines?
Or, if the character has big boobs why is it suddenly desirable versus other characters not designed that way? Because of frequency? But then see the example above.
/thread
Chrono Helix
Member
I'm expecting her to be like Mercedes from Odin Sphere, where you have finite arrows but get infinite reloads.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
In my personal experience, "The elf is boring. Omg, the amazon's butt jiggles? That's cute."
Well, of course.
Most will look at it not as parody, but as something people actually find hot. And so the message continues to be sent.
I wouldn't underestimate the influence of the primetime family sitcom. The fact there have been so many, yet none with a homely woman and a hot husband, is just one of many depictions that erodes women's self-esteem.
There's no arguing against the problem of the messages women are sent. Most women can't even leave the house without putting on makeup due to their conditioning by society to always "look good."
He's an artist, and we're reacting to his art.
flaxknuckles
Member
This argument is going absolutely nowhere. We need a women's perspective on this.
Everyone has nipples. I didn't specify a gender, or a type!
If it's justified in-universe with a valid reason and the character displays agency to the extent that the over-exposed massive breasts and pronounced ass are chosen by the fictional character alone, then I don't think the design isn't sexist. It's still a sexualized design and presentation of it, but it isn't necessarily sexist (just like Bayonetta). I think the
However, do note that this design is coming from the same creator whose female protagonist in Muramasa was only strong when a male evil spirit took control of the body, while Momohime herself was weak and without agency (both as spirit and as in-body).
When she finally gets her body back in the end, her choice is to go into celibacy as a monk.
I would like to stay away from using the word 'misogynistic', as it implies hate towards women. It's a much more loaded and muddy descriptor to something that's pretty hard to determine.
Karsticles
Member
Not everyone has "tits". At least, I've never gone up to a guy (or had one come up to me) and say "nice tits" or "show me your tits". What's your experience with this? ;-)
Schobeleth
Member
They could definitely be bigger. Sorry I'm late to this party guys. I wish they could become like a helicopter, like in another game..
Neiteio, you keep saying that the sorceress alone is the only one designed with a sexual taste in mind, but you fail to understand that not everyone finds overly massive breasts to be attractive. Why aren't the other women seen as sexual to you? One is almost naked, why wouldn't you focus on her?
Neiteio, you and Lime and some others are incapable of grasping this one point:
Kamitani is an arftist who specializes in female sex traits.
Your criticisms against Dragon's Crown or any of his games are no more valid than if you had levied the same arguments against the European masters who did the same thing in their art. Actually less so, because those paintings and sculptures of women are literally "this what we think our ideal women should look like" and their legacy defined Western aesthetics for generations.
By contrast, Kamitani is a fringe fantasy artist that eschews realism for deformation and style. You shouldn't be able to look at any of his works and think "wow he's really objectifying women" because they're so fantastic and far removed from reality.
That's where the appeal of his art comes from.
All your criticisms just come off as prudish, knee-jerk reactions.
OMG BIG TITS, MUST BE SEXIST.
Kamitani is an arftist who specializes in female sex traits.
Your criticisms against Dragon's Crown or any of his games are no more valid than if you had levied the same arguments against the European masters who did the same thing in their art. Actually less so, because those paintings and sculptures of women are literally "this what we think our ideal women should look like" and their legacy defined Western aesthetics for generations.
By contrast, Kamitani is a fringe fantasy artist that eschews realism for deformation and style. You shouldn't be able to look at any of his works and think "wow he's really objectifying women" because they're so fantastic and far removed from reality.
That's where the appeal of his art comes from.
All your criticisms just come off as prudish, knee-jerk reactions.
OMG BIG TITS, MUST BE SEXIST.
I think Nintendo is the worst offender who started the whole thing. You have to rescue a weak Princess Peach from a evil MALE monster. Also when you get to the castle you thought she was in a ugly toad women is there to tell you sorry she's not here. It's the worst depiction of a women in a game EVER. Dragon's Crown is tame compared to that.
Do you think women in real life who were just born with the genetics to have large breasts need justification? Why can't the sorceress' justification be that she had no control over the size of her breasts and they just grew based on her genetics?
This is why I'm not motivated to participate in this thread. I've provided an article to show that sexualized designs aren't necessarily sexist, yet the false myth that the criticism equals Victorian prudence is still falsely ascribed to my position.
In anyway, I'm not offended by the design at all, it just sours the experience for me. I'm fine that people want to play this game and that people don't feel embarrassed playing it. My sentiments are basically like what Salsashark's:
Keep in mind that I am not saying any of you (general you) should feel wrong or embarrassed for playing it - it's simply not in my taste (I had the same problem with the tits rabbits in Muramasa).
lol
anyway, some of the defense force is completely misguided
I dont like playing a game with big bouncing tits and characters moaning and groaning. Sorry. It's not because I get outraged and all white knight, it's because I find it unnecessary, off-putting and embarrasing.
the "i'd feel embarrased to play this in public" isnt a literal statement in the sense that i'd give a shit about what people around me think, but rather that this type of content fits the bill of legitimately feeling like it's content aimed at a taste that isn't mine. Yes i'd feel weird playing a game like this in public because I would already feel weird playing it myself.
It's fun seeing people who cant deal with someone just not liking something and giving their own personal reasons about it. It's like every little bit of negativity should be immediatly mocked or dismissed by some excuse..
I think my favorite argument so far is the "but there's women in real life with those proportions! do they embarrass you?" way to miss the point
anyway, im sorry if I turned this into something no one wanted, figured my opinion was valid for discussion since I dont think ive talked much about this ever since like, the reveal
Amen. This is the entirety of my argument. I'm not ashamed of other's seeing me playing this specific game with the sorceress. I am ashamed because this is what people think I will buy a game for, this is what people think is needed to sell me a game, this is what people think gamers as a whole are all about, these over-sexualized character designs are what the world at large and game companies think when creating the next game like this because they think a huge pair of tits will get the mouth-breathers to buy a game. This stuff is obviously untrue. Games like Mario, Dark Souls, Civilization, or Minecraft didn't need to create walking pairs of tits to sell copies.
The Sorceress is not a character, she wasn't drawn that way to represent her character, story, or gameplay. She is literally designed as a walking pair of boobs to sell this game in trailers. This isn't some arugment about hating sexuality or some BS like that. Its about the internal painful groan I feel when watching a commerial for Pop Tarts from a woman in a wet T-shirt. The huge tits are just there to sell games, and nothing else. Thats why I find it insulting and shameful.
I'd like to be able to play this game with a 8 year old, random co-worker, or friends without having to think "I wonder if this is appropriate for their age, temperament, or whether they will find this offensive, etc". I'd rather play Dark Souls with an 8 year old than play this game with them, and it's not because of some stupid sex vs violence thing. Its because the violence in Dark Souls isn't stylized to sell the game. It fits within the internal theme, story, world, and structure. Its not some jarring thing that doesn't fit that's implemented solely to give rise to the basest emotions. Obviously, neither would be appropriate, but hopefully an overtly exaggerated example like that can illustrate a point.
Maybe stop caring what other people think so much?
Again, I think you're on the right track (dislike due to taste, theme) but you take it too far. Sex, sexuality, anatomy - you're automatically attributing negative connotations that may not be there. You also don't need that to justify why you don't like it.
And I've told you the article doesn't apply to Kamitani. He has never, in the history of his games, ever focused on "believability". He's not looking to craft an immersive and realistic world you could see yourself living in. All his worlds are fairy tale worlds that operate on their logic no one but him can understand.
Look at Gwendolyn:
Why are the wings on her hips? How does that work? Why does she wear a tiara into battle?
It's a lion face on a bunch of claws that rotate. And he's not falling down despite not having a solid grip on anything. How can he stay up?
Look at this demon, his legs are so short and his upper body so large. How can he maintain balance on a single foot with that kind of body?
Here's the answer to all these questions:
IT DOESN'T MATTER.
The only thing Kamitani cares about is how something looks, everything else is completely secondary.
The article would apply to a lot of fantasy artists, comics, manga, literature and fiction in general, because all those works want to be taken "seriously" and aim for "believability", then sabotage themselves by pandering to hormonal teenagers.
But it doesn't apply to artists like Kamitani.
spandexmonkey
Banned
Is the artist also the writer? Because the clear problem with Momohime was the writing. Odin Sphere featured much more capable women, so it's not like Muramasa is a standard for Vanillaware ladies.
I do agree that sexualized characters are fine when consistant with the world they are apart of (also men in those games should be held to the same beauty standards as the women).
radios shipping overview
Member
The characters in Dragon's Crown are stylized in a way that shows the preferences of the artists (Kamitani in particular), and they are consistent with the game's art style as a whole, which is full of exaggeration and, well, fantasy.
Should every game be acceptable to play with an 8-year-old, coworkers, or friends? I don't think so. That's what Wii Sports is for.
Yeah, it's pretty unfair that we can't have attributes of angels or demons, not to mention Alucard's beautiful flowing locks right pissed me off. She's really shoving anyone's unattainable standard for beauty in our faces. Come on! She's awesome and I get where you're going, but I don't think you're going to convince anyone with these silly comparisons. Also, this art panders to a completely different audience than DOA; not everyone is into realism (see: lolis).
To stay on topic: There's no denying the highlighting of female "assets" is meant to appeal to male gamers, but what's wrong with that? It's not even remotely comparable to Hollywood, magazines and the model industry. I DO NOT agree Kamitani is "misogynistic" just because he puts huge tits on females (that's why I cut that part out when I quoted the comment about character design). I don't like his female designs because I find them hideous, but I don't think there's any malice behind them. I think people should let others enjoy or not enjoy art and games without guilt trips. If you're gonna throw a fit over something terrible in games how 'bout murdering humans? More offensive than tits if you think games are negatively influencing people in the real world. This thread has really went off the rails.
Muggaz, I agree with your point in principle, but this is more of a niche title with established sexualized tropes (Odin Sphere -> Muramasa -> Dragon's Crown) than a mainstream title with lots of exposure. Stuff like Lollipop Chainsaw is more applicable and a high-value target for your sentiments regarding current games culture (which I am completely in agreement with) than this one, I think.
Choose your battles, if you know what I am saying.
Exactly.
EDIT: Haly, I think this entire post of mine should clarify my position in regards to this thread.
Choose your battles, if you know what I am saying.
Exactly.
EDIT: Haly, I think this entire post of mine should clarify my position in regards to this thread.