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[elty]

What about Bestbuy?

I think if you get banned from EA, you will lose access to every game you have purchased?

BestBuy is not going to raid your home and take back everything you bought from them I think. Besides they only stop you from returning again in 90 days.

 

[sangreal]

Did they give you a reason why? This is the part that completely irks me with what EA is doing. If EA says that people can request a refund on the game as part of their official statement, it should completely blow up in their face if they turn around and start denying refunds based on "their discretion". I hope this whole thing turns into a gigantic PR nightmare for them.

because they don't feel like it more or less

You are now ready to chat with Luke.

Luke: Thank you for contacting EA support, my name is Luke, how can I help you today?

you: Hello, I'd like to request a refund for SimCity as I haven't been able to play it

Luke: Ok im sorry to hear that, can i ask what the issue your having is?

you: Whenever I try to play the servers are down, and the few times I've gotten in I have lost my progress after getting disconnected

Luke: Ok im sorry but we are experiencing issues with the server at the moment and we are hard at work to fix this as soon as possible so that you can play again.

you: I understand that it is something that might be resolved in the future and I would consider revisiting the game, but right now it is unplayable

you: I purchased it yesterday and I've gotten nowhere with it

Luke: Im sorry but we are working on fixing it as soon as possible, im afraid i can only suggest waiting until the server issues are fixed, you can keep up to date on the latest updates on our help site and social media feeds such as twitter.

you: I was told to request a refund by the community manager on the forum. I understand from the terms that it is not normal policy, but they say it can be done in exceptional circumstances

you: As the game cannot currently be played, I feel that should apply

Luke: Ok can i ask how you purchased the game?

you: I purchased it on origin.com

Luke: Ok i will need to transfer you to our Origin team then and they will be able to assist you with your refund, would you like me to transfer you through now?

you: Yes, please

you: Thank you

Luke: No problem, there may be a wait in the queue but i will transfer you through now.

Please wait while we get this chat session where it needs to go.

You are now ready to chat with Shane.

Shane: Thanks for contacting EA Help, EA Games Support! My name is Shane. Could I start by getting your name and email address please?

you *** ***

Shane: Hi ***, how can I help you?

you: Hi, I was transferred here by another chat agent. I'm not sure if the previous transcript is available to you but I was told it was to assist me in processing a refund for SimCity

you: I purchased it from Origin.com yesterday

Shane: I can see your previous chat.

Shane: I understand you are unhappy with the game because of the servers being strained at present.

you: Yes, that's correct. I am unable to play it

Shane: I do understand and at present many people are having the same issue as yourself. We are currently working hard to have this issue resolved as soon as possible so that you will be able to play.

you: I understand that, but as I discussed with the previous agent, Luke, I have not been able to enjoy the game at all since purchasing it. While I understand that refunds are at your discretion, he indicated that you would be able to help me with that

Shane: Unfortunately refunds are not at our discretion. We cannot offer a refund in relation to this issue. This issue is being worked on and it is very unfortunate that it has affected so many people, which we cannot apologize enough for. We are hoping to have this issue resolved shortly so that you and everyone else affected by this will be able to play the game.

you: I am aware that other players have been able to get a refund

you: Per the policy I was directed to previously, they can be given in exceptional cases

you: Paying $60 for a game that cannot be played is an exceptional case

Shane: Did you purchase a digital download version of the game?

you: Yes, it was a digital download from origin.com

Shane: We are not able to offer refunds in this circumstance. I do understand that it is a very serious issue, but it will be resolved soon and you will have full access to the game.

you: I'm sorry, but that really is not acceptable. The product is entirely broken

you: I would be happy to repurchase it at a later date if it becomes usable

you: I've also been kept waiting for quite awhile specifically so that you could help me process a refund.

you: The terms state "EA reserves the right, however, to offer refunds under exceptional circumstances at its sole discretion."

Shane: I am sorry for the delay, we are trying our best to get to everyone as quick as possible. Yes but it these circumstances we can not offer a refund. A fix is being completed on the servers and it should be up and running within the next few hours. I can complete troubleshooting with you to speed up your connectivity to assist you with gaining access to the game if that's ok with you.

youN o, I will take the matter up with my bank. Thank you

Shane: Again I am very sorry and the issue will be resolved soon. Is there anything else I can help you with today?

you: Is there a supervisor I can talk to?

Shane: We don't have supervisor escalations through chat, however we do have a supervisor system through our phone support. The number to call is The number to call is 866-543-5435

I will give the number a try when my phone finishes charging (I expect another long wait), but I'm not hopeful

update: phone call worked. refund successful

 

[Roto13]

Yea, this whole "at our discretion" thing is what's not sitting well with me for this SimCity cluster. What makes this guy different from other people who have been able to get their money back for this game? Unless of course the guy has actually been able to play the game the entire time and just decided he didn't want it anymore. That's a different thing altogether.

It looks like he's lying about what the problem is. It sounds like he's saying that the game is actually fundamentally broken and will remain broken when the servers are working.

You do a chargeback if the merchant won't offer you a refund.
Somebody mentioned what would happen with an open boxed game from a shop, well you'd get a refund or replacement if the disc was faulty.

The digital equivalent of the disc is not faulty, in this case.

 

[SuperSonic1305]

Buyer beware

You're in for a scare?

 

[Fried Food]

this guy lost me when he said the game/back end was the problem. As if he would know. That sounds like a typical forum child.

 

[diamount]

I agree but my position is just as Valve doesn't always offer a refund they also don't always limit customers to one lifetime refund. Its at the discretion of support. We have already seen a couple in this thread state they have received more than one refund from Valve.

I guess it depends on a case-per-case basis. Just going by my experience where he explicity stated that refunding is at Valve's discretion and they are under no legal obligation per their TOS.

 

[syllogism]

I am in my third year of law school and in the U.S. they can't rescind an offer after it has been accepted.

I would have agreed with you that they are entitled to some time to remedy the problem but since they specifically offered to refund anyone who asks for one, they are obligated to do so.

Are you using "offer" in the usual contract law context? Because the offer to give a refund isn't an expression of the willingness to enter into a contract and likely isn't binding even if said "offer" is accepted before it is rescinded. Even if it was, this kind of general offer that isn't directed at anyone in particular likely isn't binding anyway. If I understand US terminology correctly, this seems more like a gratuitous promise and the applicable doctrine would be promissory estoppel.

Also I'm very confident that 97/7/EC provision that appears to provide for a refund, does not apply in this situation and likely quite rarely. It likely only applies if the performance can not be made at all within a reasonable time frame or the time frame is unknown. The service isn't even completely unavailable.

As for the possibility that this could be considered an unconscionable contract, that is extremely unlikely because the relevant clauses basically just repeat various distance selling customer protection laws/directives.

 

[Roto13]

this guy lost me when he said the game/back end was the problem. As if he would know. That sounds like a typical forum child.

Sounds like he's a "back end," m i rite?

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

I guess it depends on a case-per-case basis. Just going by my experience where he explicity stated that refunding is at Valve's discretion and they are under no legal obligation per their TOS.

Yea I agree with that. I think we are disagreeing on semantics hehe.

 

[Jawmuncher]

You're in for a scare?

So simple yet absolutely hilarious.

 

[Garcia]

Keep buying DRM-heavy games GAF. Just keep doing it.

 

[sangreal]

because they don't feel like it more or less



I will give the number a try when my phone finishes charging (I expect another long wait), but I'm not hopeful

been on hold for 35 minutes already. getting in touch with them is almost as bad as logging into the game

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

FYI for those in the US you are much better off having EA call you back. Within Origin select help like you would contact chat support but instead slect call back.

 

[sangreal]

FYI for those in the US you are much better off having EA call you back. Within Origin select help like you would contact chat support but instead slect call back.

that would've been good to know. oh well

 

[legacyzero]

Keep buying DRM-heavy games GAF. Just keep doing it.

This.

Game looks interesting, sure. But not with THAT shit. Fuck right off with that anti-consumer crap EA.

 

[DragonSworne]

I hope EA gets fined 1 billion USD

 

[TheNatural]

Keep buying DRM-heavy games GAF. Just keep doing it.

Vote with your dollars should be GAF's slogan.

The most maligned, whipped consumer I've ever seen is a gamer. If someone releases a shit movie, for the most part it's box office will tail off quickly from word of mouth. Games? You can release shit with microtransactions, heavy DRM, bugs, and all kinds of shit and you'll still get apologists who give them cash.

It's too bad there's no real restraint from the same people who probably have a Steam backlog a mile long with regards to horrible DRM.

 

[RiccochetJ]

Keep buying DRM-heavy games GAF. Just keep doing it.

I've been spending a lot of my money at GoG lately.

 

[Chinner]

this is a bit of a double standard from some gaffers - they notoriously complain about how bad a game is or how much DRM but they still buy it!

I haven't bought an EA game since ME2, and I don't feel like I've missed out at all really.

 

[sangreal]

54 minutes on the phone (mostly on hold) but my refund is on the way. The phone agent was actually pretty great and I had no trouble getting the refund. He tried to sell me on the updates EA is making to fix the issue but I let him know that I dont see disabling features as a solution.

 

[Espada]

Keep buying DRM-heavy games GAF. Just keep doing it.

Absolutely. It's embarrassing how so many gaming enthusiasts have no self-control whatsoever. Even a cursory examination of these policies confirms that they shit on the end user, but they still support EA and its ilk.

I'm sad to say it, but a lot of gamers seem more like crack addicts than anything else. They gotta get that rock even if they know the dealer is using chemical filler that will harm them.

 

[dripdripsplash]

Absolutely. That's why I started the sentence with "it's shit", a statement that obviously shows my full support.

Oh sorry, I should have edited my question. I meant to ask, does it make it okay if some other company already does it ?

But I think you already answered my question now.

 

[WedgeX]

If I purchased a product that was unable to work and the company refused to refund, despite the problem originating on their side, I'd contact the Better Business Bureau.

 

[phisheep]

Double post

 

[phisheep]

Well, software is inherently faulty, since only space agencies can have so thorough QA that it nabs all the errors (and not even they have a 100% success rate). Maybe it's just a simple bug like being able to fall through the world at some points, or maybe it's a bug that stops your progress or eats your save. This imo falls somewhere in the middle, since while it obviously is currently not allowing you to play the game, it is time specific.
Now this isn't that great of an analogy since this is not planned, but if you purchase an MMO subscription and attempt to play at maintenance, do you get to claim that the game is broken?

And we wouldn't get away with this argument for an MMO, because there are inherent characteristics of and defects in the infrastructure. And in defence you could point at any MMO there is and they have the same problems.

Different for single-player games (or single-player modes of games) requiring an always-on connection for some reason other than the customers enjoyment of the product and that isn't always there. Because there are zillions of single-player games out there that work perfectly fine (and probably this one too with minor modifications) without.

There's a requirement added to the game that has the sole and deliberate function from the customers point of view of making the experience worse: not as described, not fit for purpose, faulty.

It's certainly worth a go.

I would have agreed with you that they are entitled to some time to remedy the problem but since they specifically offered to refund anyone who asks for one, they are obligated to do so.

They said that you could request a refund. That's not quite the same thing, but arguably you are right. You certainly would be had the offer been clearer, and there's still room for argument on that.

Not to mention there is a perfectly good argument that the product is inherently defective

As above.

 

[LizardKing]

This is the problem with the publishers getting into digital distribution. They want and are getting complete control. Control over how much you pay for it, if you can return it, if you can even play them anymore or if you're banned if you don't play nice. Scary future to be a gamer.

 

[jWILL253]

Its a digital sale theres no refunds on digital items once installed.

Its like that everywhere. Unless its a smartphone app then you have 15 mins lol.

Deal with the problems or just dont play the game.

See, it's that shit right there that irritates me.

Are publishers really disrespecting gamers to the point that some of our own peers in the community are expected to justify shit like this? We're just supposed to take it lying down?

EDIT: If I were in this situation, I wouldn't give a single damn about the Origin account. If I wanted my money back for a defective product and had to resort to a chargeback, and EA threatened to ban me, they could keep that fucking account...

 

[Snaku]

Always online, too bad their servers aren't.

 

[Roto13]

See, it's that shit right there that irritates me.

Are publishers really disrespecting gamers to the point that some of our own peers in the community are expected to justify shit like this? We're just supposed to take it lying down?

EDIT: If I were in this situation, I wouldn't give a single damn about the Origin account. If I wanted my money back for a defective product and had to resort to a chargeback, and EA threatened to ban me, they could keep that fucking account...

Totally worth losing all of your EA games over not being able to play your new game for a few days.

 

[Kun Aguero]

Always online, too bad their servers aren't.

The "always online" term should really be replaced by something more apt. I don't know, something like "occasionally online until we finally get our shit together"

 

[Dude Abides]

I wonder what, if anything, in the EULA authorizes them to ban accounts that attempt to charge back.

 

[NullPointer]

Shane: Did you purchase a digital download version of the game?

you: Yes, it was a digital download from origin.com

Shane: We are not able to offer refunds in this circumstance

Fuck digital downloads. Seriously.

 

[dacuk]

Keep buying DRM-heavy games GAF. Just keep doing it.

This is the reason I do not want a digital-only future.

 

[Ceebs]

Totally worth losing all of your EA games over not being able to play your new game for a few days.

In my case it is a copy of Burnout Paradise and The Old Republic, so yeah I would just rebuy Burnout in the next steam sale.

 

[phisheep]

EDIT: If I were in this situation, I wouldn't give a single damn about the Origin account. If I wanted my money back for a defective product and had to resort to a chargeback, and EA threatened to ban me, they could keep that fucking account...

Protip: If I were in that situation I would go heavy with them in person but I wouldn't fly it all over the internet, or even GAF. You do that first, you lose an arguing point - you do it after you're probably in breach of whatever agreement they make you sign (never had that with game companies yet, have had it with medical providers, which is even more scary - but don't ask for details as you won't get 'em - confidentiality and dollars says otherwise).

 

[jWILL253]

Totally worth losing all of your EA games over not being able to play your new game for a few days.

Because it's not like Steam is a better service anyways...

/sarcasm

EDIT: If EA wants to treat paying customers like this, then what they're essentially saying is "Deal with it, we don't care what your problems are. Just give us more money!" In that case, I don't care how many EA games I purchased over the years. If they don't care about me as a customer, then they must not care for my past, present & future business with them. That means there would be no longer a need for the Origin account...

 

[Roto13]

Because it's not like Steam is a better service anyways...

/sarcasm

EDIT: If EA wants to treat paying customers like this, then what they're essentially saying is "Deal with it, we don't care what your problems are. Just give us more money!" In that case, I don't care how many EA games I purchased over the years. If they don't care about me as a customer, then they must not care for my past, present & future business with them. That means there would be no longer a need for the Origin account...

Aww, look at you, all indignant. So cute. *pinch*

 

[Darkmakaimura]

Fuck digital downloads. Seriously.

This. I don't care if people think I'm "old fashioned" but I love my games on physical media, such as a disc or card. The only one I find acceptable is GOG, which is completely DRM free. I don't even use the highly praised Steam due to their restrictions.

People are going to keep supporting this and this is what they're going to get. I don't want to blame consumers in general although, because I do believe there were people out there who bought this without knowing what they might be getting into.

Maybe one day always online will be possible when Internet becomes as accessible and reliable as electricity and when servers are more than capable of handling the loads I can accept this. Maybe.

 

[TheNatural]

This. I don't care if people think I'm "old fashioned" but I love my games on physical media, such as a disc or card. The only one I find acceptable is GOG, which is completely DRM free. I don't even use the highly praised Steam due to their restrictions.

People are going to keep supporting this and this is what they're going to get. I don't want to blame consumers in general although, because I do believe there were people out there who bought this without knowing what they might be getting into.

Maybe one day always online will be possible when Internet becomes as accessible and reliable as electricity and when servers are more than capable of handling the loads I can accept this. Maybe.

There's nothing wrong with digital downloads, or even a client to use them. Installing something that adds nothing other than DRM and makes sure you have to always be online is unacceptable though.

 

[Chie Satonaka]

Keep buying DRM-heavy games GAF. Just keep doing it.

Oh they will.

Nobody's going to stop buying these kinds of games just because of this fiasco, and it's not going to stop people from implementing it in the future, either.

And that's sad.

 

[Roto13]

This. I don't care if people think I'm "old fashioned" but I love my games on physical media, such as a disc or card. The only one I find acceptable is GOG, which is completely DRM free. I don't even use the highly praised Steam due to their restrictions.

People are going to keep supporting this and this is what they're going to get. I don't want to blame consumers in general although, because I do believe there were people out there who bought this without knowing what they might be getting into.

Maybe one day always online will be possible when Internet becomes as accessible and reliable as electricity and when servers are more than capable of handling the loads I can accept this. Maybe.

Physical copies of Sim City don't work, either, and stores don't normally give refunds for opened software, especially PC games.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

Physical copies of Sim City don't work, either, and stores don't normally give refunds for opened software, especially PC games.

I got that. The DRM is the problem here. Still, I prefer physical copies as opposed to DD's. Exception would be things like GOG, where I could backup my digital downloads to physical devices and play them years later.

 

[Lime]

Vote with your dollars should be GAF's slogan.

The most maligned, whipped consumer I've ever seen is a gamer. If someone releases a shit movie, for the most part it's box office will tail off quickly from word of mouth.

Adam Sandler movies.

 

[MikeE21286]

because they don't feel like it more or less



I will give the number a try when my phone finishes charging (I expect another long wait), but I'm not hopeful

update: phone call worked. refund successful

Congrats on your perseverance.

If I had purchased it I would do the same.


If MS was thinking about Duragno having always online, well EA just totally fucked it up for them.

 

[Axspell]

I think that's standard practice when a customer threatens to call the bank to refund/block a transaction. Wasn't there an email from a steam rep threatening a guy to do the same floating aorund?

"Of course we can always go ahead and ban your account, locking away all your steam games... do you want us to go ahead and do that?" /paraphrase

I don't exactly recall what the context was, don't quote me on it.

Crazy. Surely that can't be commonplace.

 

[nib95]

I hope EA gets fined 1 billion USD

Not in the US they won't. Not even in the UK. Our countries can be a bit stupid like that. EU however, I think there's a chance. Not a 1 billion fine, but hopefully some anti consumer related one. EU courts are pretty big on people's rights. I think that's partly why Brits dislike the EU so much. We're a sucker for punishment and bad decisions.

 

[Ingueferroque]

I'm so happy with the backlash.

 

[Tacitus_]

And we wouldn't get away with this argument for an MMO, because there are inherent characteristics of and defects in the infrastructure. And in defence you could point at any MMO there is and they have the same problems.

Different for single-player games (or single-player modes of games) requiring an always-on connection for some reason other than the customers enjoyment of the product and that isn't always there. Because there are zillions of single-player games out there that work perfectly fine (and probably this one too with minor modifications) without.

There's a requirement added to the game that has the sole and deliberate function from the customers point of view of making the experience worse: not as described, not fit for purpose, faulty.

It's certainly worth a go.

Yeah, I'd agree if it was Ubisoft style where you needed to be connected without any reason. But if we take EA at its word, they are running the simulation either wholly or heavily in a data center. So you're always playing on their servers and in multiplayer, even if you make a private area.

 

[Nevasleep]

Physical copies of Sim City don't work, either, and stores don't normally give refunds for opened software, especially PC games.

However in this case it isn't a problem with the user. The product they've sold is faulty, so they should be giving refunds and legally have to in some countries.

If I was EA I'd give refunds through origin (considering how easy it would be) to keep people happy, then send out a discount for 30% once they have enough capacity, which seems to be taking a considerable amount of time. Although in a perfect world it'd have an offline single player, then I'd buy it.

 

[Photolysis]

The most maligned, whipped consumer I've ever seen is a gamer. If someone releases a shit movie, for the most part it's box office will tail off quickly from word of mouth. Games? You can release shit with microtransactions, heavy DRM, bugs, and all kinds of shit and you'll still get apologists who give them cash.

It's bizarre because - as you correctly point out - it doesn't tend to happen in any other medium, at least on a widespread scale.

Is it any wonder companies pull this shit when they know that it's almost impossible for them to lose significant business over it?