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Ethically is buying a game better than emulating?
- Thread starter TI82
- Start date
If the creators are not benefitting and the game is no longer being produced, than I'd say it's fine to download the game. In the age of digital distribution where supply is unlimited, there is really no excuse for piracy, but when it comes to old software that is unobtainable outside of buying at overinflated used prices... then I'll put quotation marks around "piracy"....
Besides legal issues, the only difference between buying a used copy and acquiring an unauthorized copy of a game that is no longer available through any official channels is that you're letting someone else decide how to spend the money that did not go towards the purchase of an official, new copy. The few reasons to buy a used copy would then be if it is the only way to play on the original hardware (in case emulation still has problems) or if you have a personal preference towards owning physical copies of all the games you play.
Collectors would of course go for a sealed, new copy as collecting isn't really about playing games, it's more about having stuff to showcase on your shelf.
Collectors would of course go for a sealed, new copy as collecting isn't really about playing games, it's more about having stuff to showcase on your shelf.
People can't always forsee the future. If the company issuing a rerelease of the game fails to release (or announce the rerelease or whatever) it before all the potential customers have already played the game, then it's the company's fault for missing out on taking advantage of consumer demand. The existence of emulators and available copies of previous releases are the whole reason that companies are so hesitant about doing rereleases.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
I'm in this problem. I want to legally play the Silent Hill games, without buying the apparently crappy PS3 remake. I go and check Amazon (not like they'd accept my PayPal) and turns out that there are used copies that go up to 180$.
I don't want to pirate the PC version, it'll probably have virus or something. And I don't know if it's wrong if I emulate the PS2 versions on my PC until GOG or someone legally digitally rereleases the game.
I don't want to pirate the PC version, it'll probably have virus or something. And I don't know if it's wrong if I emulate the PS2 versions on my PC until GOG or someone legally digitally rereleases the game.
interesting point. but do you really think a cartridge looses its value if theres an emulated version on the internet? because for many people that would pay prices above 100$ for an old game, the cartridge is the reason...
i don't think it devalues the cardridge that much, but at the same time i don't think someone should have an exorbitant gain on a used item he paid 60$ 20 years ago...
still a valid point because me thinkin things isn't knowin.
If it was everyone's only way to play the game, they would be paying for the ability to play it as well. Thanks to emulation and rereleases on newer systems, we don't need those old carts to play the games. So you're right, it's collectors who are after the carts.
A good way to test this would be to look at prices of a rare game before and after a rerelease. If it drops in price, it would demonstrate the removal from the market of people who just want to play the game.
I'm a bit of a weirdo in that I tend to emulate cause PCSX2 playing PS2 games looks way nicer then PS2 games on my tv. But yeah I don't have a problem with people emulating games they either cannot afford or cannot find for older systems. My PS2 collection is vast and still there are a few games I can remember renting but can't seem to buy anywhere anymore. I still hunt from time to time for them. Like I finally found Samurai 20XX the other day. Still looking for Ephermial Phantasia, the .hack GU games, and qite a few others.
Though Ii also question what about games like FF: Crisis Core and Brave Story that are only in UMD form. I'd love to be able to get them on Vita but Brave Story was delisted and Crisis Core was never put up on PSN in the US and now likely never will due to licensing issues.
Though Ii also question what about games like FF: Crisis Core and Brave Story that are only in UMD form. I'd love to be able to get them on Vita but Brave Story was delisted and Crisis Core was never put up on PSN in the US and now likely never will due to licensing issues.
I dunno, I flip flop on this, I even made a thread once about the ethics of emulating consoles still on the market like the Wii or soon the X360.
My opinion: If you decide to pirate an old game on the assumption it'll never see a release that gets re-released on virtual console you are morally obligated to buy it (for example this was mostly the case with earthbound). Piracy of Wii games is immoral if you don't own it since backwards compatibility is a thing, etc. But I start to get more lenient when there are no new copies and the developers/console owner don't benefit.
My opinion: If you decide to pirate an old game on the assumption it'll never see a release that gets re-released on virtual console you are morally obligated to buy it (for example this was mostly the case with earthbound). Piracy of Wii games is immoral if you don't own it since backwards compatibility is a thing, etc. But I start to get more lenient when there are no new copies and the developers/console owner don't benefit.
Wowfunhappy
Member
I think that pirating old games that haven't been re-released is fine, however—
if the game is ever re-released, on any platform at any semi-reasoning, you are then obligated to purchase it.
if the game is ever re-released, on any platform at any semi-reasoning, you are then obligated to purchase it.
MMaRsu
Banned
Some Neo Geo games are waay too expensive -_-
HellBlazer
Member
Huh, really? Shit, I need to remember to never delete DKC from my Wii U...
But in a case like this, I would personally say it's ethically OK to emulate.
magnumpy
Member
doesn't the original manufacturer get reimbursed by dint of the fact that someone bought a foreign version so they could scalp it? I haven't heard any reports of boats from Japan containing 3DS's being hijacked by pirates, which in that case it might preclude nintendo from receiving their appropriate share.
1st Course
Member
If you're asking for Nintendo stance they pretty much consider everything that has to do with emulators illegal, even if you own the game
http://www.nintendo.com/corp/legal.jsp
http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/news/6003/nintendos-stance-on-emulation
I do think visiting pirating websites that profit from offering unlicensed software is unethical in and of itself.
If your friend rips you a copy of a game you cannot otherwise purchase, then that's fine. If you go to one of the major rom websites to get your software, you're contributing to the problem and are behaving unethically in my opinion. They get revenue from clicks, and they get clicks from illegal exploitation of many games that are currently sold legally elsewhere. Basically, your visits to such sites is funding wrongdoing.
I generally don't emulate old games. I've purchased a few reproductions of games that aren't available elsewhere, and when they became available I was obligated to buy them so I did. And I only buy from reproducers that reproduce games that simply aren't otherwise available like Eartbound Zero and Recca. (I did buy Recca on 3DS when it eventually came out, and I'll buy it on Wii U as well).
Overall, HOW you get your roms is more important than simply whether you have them. Do not support pirates.
If your friend rips you a copy of a game you cannot otherwise purchase, then that's fine. If you go to one of the major rom websites to get your software, you're contributing to the problem and are behaving unethically in my opinion. They get revenue from clicks, and they get clicks from illegal exploitation of many games that are currently sold legally elsewhere. Basically, your visits to such sites is funding wrongdoing.
I generally don't emulate old games. I've purchased a few reproductions of games that aren't available elsewhere, and when they became available I was obligated to buy them so I did. And I only buy from reproducers that reproduce games that simply aren't otherwise available like Eartbound Zero and Recca. (I did buy Recca on 3DS when it eventually came out, and I'll buy it on Wii U as well).
Overall, HOW you get your roms is more important than simply whether you have them. Do not support pirates.
TC McQueen
Member
Emulation/piracy is fine for super old games that don't have re-releases and may never get them (see all pre-2013 Star Trek games). Ideally, you should get the legal re-release when it comes out, but if the legal release isn't an improvement over the emulated experience, then it's up to you to decide what to do.
Piston Hyundai
Member
It'd be foolish to visit sites as sketchy as those without AdBlock and NoScript running anyway.
Wowfunhappy
Member
Protip: PCSX2 can run PS2 game discs directly from your computer's CD drive. I've done it with Persona 4.
Starwolf_UK
Member
In a way they were not completely wrong. Yoshi's Cookie is a known exception to the redownload rule where it was completely removed instead of delisted. It also means if you system transfer to a Wii U you can easily lose the copy of the game as several people have (I think if it is on the Wii menu it survives otherwise it is lost) which I suppose is all the more reason to make a NAND backup before doing a the system transfer (as you can keep using it on the Wii then).
terrisus
Member
So "Games like" a game which is available from the company that made it, and a game which has been remade by the company that made it?
I mean, seriously, 2 of your 3 examples of "titles that will likely never be re-released" are games which are perfect examples of why not to do this.
Ethically I see no reason to buy a game if it doesn't directly affect the right holder. So for example, Mother 3 - I can't legitimately buy that in a way that benefits Nintendo so I have no ethical obligation to buy it. Also, I have no ethical obligation to buy it retrospectively. So if I pirated Mother3 and then a year later Nintendo released it in the US I'd have to obligation to buy it.
Wowfunhappy
Member
We'll obviously never know, but I suspect the Virtual Console and similar would be doing even better—much better—if emulation wasn't a thing.
Imagine: the game that's been virtually impossible for anyone to play for the past 15 years was finally re-released! It would be somewhat like the Disney Vault. People would go nuts.
Whether or not that's good for the industry, is, of course, another matter. I honestly have mixed feelings.
Yeah but generally ripping it as an ISO and putting it on your HDD is better for performance...
Wowfunhappy
Member
They say that but I haven't found any difference at all on the newer versions. And as a trade-off, it makes buying the games legally feel a lot more palatableyou feel as though you're actually using the game you bought. And since the PS2 is still fairly recent, people really should be buying games in that case, IMO.
And if you DO want to use an ISO, since the games CAN be read by a normal computer, ripping them yourself is honestly probably easier than going to a shady download site.
I know, I still rip the games on my old laptop since my current PC has no disc drive at all.
TC McQueen
Member
Assuming your disc isn't scratched, and is therefore unrippable by your CD drive. That happened to my copy of Yu-Gi-Oh Forbidden Memories and the used copy of 007: Agent Under Fire I bought. I wound up having to go to shady sites to get working ISOs.
Personally, I have no issue with emulation of software that isn't being actively sold new anymore. I don't have a horse in the collector/reseller race, and that market is going to be rather unharmed by emulation anyways. When it comes to just wanting to play software no longer being sold, and there is no publisher/developer to support anymore, you're not really hurting anyone by emulating the game.
Mailenstein
Member
Downloading new games for free when they go on sale is a problem. As for retro stuff, I don't see a problem there at all. But then again, the definition of "retro" varies from person to person.
On a side note:
Some people don't understand how important preservation of games is. You can call it whatever you want, but one day you will learn to appreciate it. Nobody would ever be able to play the BS Zelda games without it for example. Also, try to get a complete C64 set without "piracy". Good luck.
On a side note:
Some people don't understand how important preservation of games is. You can call it whatever you want, but one day you will learn to appreciate it. Nobody would ever be able to play the BS Zelda games without it for example. Also, try to get a complete C64 set without "piracy". Good luck.
That's a good counterpoint. The BS Snes games would be complete mysteries if not for pirates.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
You're able to pirate any movie in the Disney Vault and you have been able to with ease since home releases of Disney films have existed.
Given this, what does it say about your choice of analogy of the Disney Vault as an ideal execution of a re-release demand strategy, and how piracy affects the Virtual Console?
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
It's a wonder why Broken Age is in the shape it is.
That reminds me after 2 years of searching I finally found Summoner II. It was scratched and wouldn't get past a point 2 hours in. They let me return it but didn't have another copy
This is why I think it's wrong 100% of the time. No exceptions. The reason is it DEVALUES games. I just assume the people that cry about the price of the Virtual Console are pirates. $8 for a Super Nintendo game, especially a rare one, is a good price... unless of course you have the entire catalog downloaded for free.
InfiniteCombo
Banned
Yup, hang on to that DKC for dear life!
Whoa, I did not know this. Thanks for the tip, Star.
--------------------------------
Confining myself to TI's question about ethics, I'm not going to judge someone (or look down on them) that chooses to emulate a game that is:
(1) retro
(2) either literally impossible to find OR
(3) prohibitively expensive (hello there, SNES JRPGs!)
Now, personally, I don't ever emulate for several reasons:
(1) for anything I own, I like staying within the good side of the law. If I'm doing something and the question of legality even comes up, I don't do it
(2) I like owning things, for all of my entertainment (video games, music, movies)
(3) I like running original games on original hardware. That way, I know that the game will work 100% as originally intended. I don't have to worry about emulation fidelity issues.
But like I said, that's just me. If someone chooses to emulate, it's on them. Live and let live kind of thing.
MrCunningham
Member
I feel much better not having to pay some Ebay seller $200.00 for some old game that I am mildly curious about. If there was some system that would allow me to give money directly to the original creators for purchasing their original works, than I would.
Ofcourse I am only talking about rare and hard to find games here. Not things that have been re-released through countless collections and digital releases.
Ofcourse I am only talking about rare and hard to find games here. Not things that have been re-released through countless collections and digital releases.
InfiniteCombo
Banned
Good point.
Which brings up the question... why don't more publishers proactively put their older games in services like PSN/Live/VC?
I remember scooping up a lot of SNK games on Xbox Live Arcade, even though I already owned a lot of them on PS2/Dreamcast, because of the convenience of playing on Xbox, and I also knew some of that money was going to SNK. I also bought Soul Calibur and SC2 for the same reasons. And an obnoxious amount of Capcom stuff on PSN. And Nintendo stuff on VC. Etc...
How?
After that first purchase the developer sees $0
I have zero issues with emulating games that cannot be had by other reasonable means. If an emulated game happens to come back as a downloadable title, then yes you should purchase that as that money will go to whoever owns the property at that time.
Ethically, yes, buying a game is "better" than simply emulating it.
In the overall picture, however, the original creator isn't benefiting at all from your second-hand purchase or hurting due to the lack thereof. They were paid once, they aren't going to be paid a second time. The contest to this is that the initial purchase of the game was made with the expectation of continued value and thus validated, in part or full, the original price of the game. This is of course becoming less and less the case with digital sales, as what you buy ultimately becomes worthless outside of what you gain from personally playing it.
Abandonware adds a layer of grey to the issue in that there are many games, no longer for sale, which people may be willing to pay for, but simply can't purchase at a reasonable price. This is often the case with older/rarer games. In these cases, morality comes into play. Luckily, many of these games (but certainly not most) have become more readily available thanks to sites like GOG, and I support them in this regard.
Personally, my thinking is that if I enjoy a game, or at the very least find enjoyment in it, I don't mind purchasing it secondhand (provided it's affordable). It would be nice if this resulted in continued support for the original creator, but it simply doesn't. As such, I don't have a huge issue with people playing emulated games as there's no significant loss (aside from a potential decrease in resale value by second-hand sellers). More so than that, however, emulation ensures that games are preserved and are easily accessible. Hardware eventually dies, but digital backups potentially last forever. Because of this, emulation is more than simply "playing games for free," it's an archive of history.
In the overall picture, however, the original creator isn't benefiting at all from your second-hand purchase or hurting due to the lack thereof. They were paid once, they aren't going to be paid a second time. The contest to this is that the initial purchase of the game was made with the expectation of continued value and thus validated, in part or full, the original price of the game. This is of course becoming less and less the case with digital sales, as what you buy ultimately becomes worthless outside of what you gain from personally playing it.
Abandonware adds a layer of grey to the issue in that there are many games, no longer for sale, which people may be willing to pay for, but simply can't purchase at a reasonable price. This is often the case with older/rarer games. In these cases, morality comes into play. Luckily, many of these games (but certainly not most) have become more readily available thanks to sites like GOG, and I support them in this regard.
Personally, my thinking is that if I enjoy a game, or at the very least find enjoyment in it, I don't mind purchasing it secondhand (provided it's affordable). It would be nice if this resulted in continued support for the original creator, but it simply doesn't. As such, I don't have a huge issue with people playing emulated games as there's no significant loss (aside from a potential decrease in resale value by second-hand sellers). More so than that, however, emulation ensures that games are preserved and are easily accessible. Hardware eventually dies, but digital backups potentially last forever. Because of this, emulation is more than simply "playing games for free," it's an archive of history.
How? I hope you aren't going to say through merchandise and interest in sequels because the emulations would do the same thing.
If there's no other way to get the game legally, and my only way is to pay a scalper or hunt the arcade cabinet (like Super Bagman), then I don't have a problem playing the game through more...questionable means. Otherwise, I buy classic games whenever they're legally distributed. PSOne Classics is what I buty the most.
I really want a Super Bagman rerelease
MrCunningham
Member
Well sometimes it is not always realistic as there are games out there that have ownership rights spread out across multiple parties or are stuck in limbo or are being held by a bankruptcy firm or some other thing like it. The legal ownership rights are usually the reason why some games never get a re release. The No One Lives Forever series is one case like this. I would love to get my hands on a GOG release of part two.
Man-is-Obsolete
Member
I always struggled with this as well. Like Buying old Nintendo cartridges is not giving a cent to Nintendo or the developers of those games. If anything emulation makes the preservation of those games much easier and more accessible to a newer audience that really should experience those games as well.
I treat it like this, if the IP holders do nothing to restore those titles on more current platforms (ie virtual console) than they to me are the equivalent of Public Domain, but not entirely of course as the IP owners still own it not the public. Sure People can go out and buy the first editions of Alice in Wonderland, but they can also get it completely free as well.
I treat it like this, if the IP holders do nothing to restore those titles on more current platforms (ie virtual console) than they to me are the equivalent of Public Domain, but not entirely of course as the IP owners still own it not the public. Sure People can go out and buy the first editions of Alice in Wonderland, but they can also get it completely free as well.
No, the company lost out on the money by waiting too long to rerelease a nearly 30yo game.
CambriaRising
Member
His point was that he would make dirt on the re-release but they would actually make money on the merch.
Dreamwriter
Member
The "preservation" argument doesn't work for 99.999999% of all games, because the DMCA specifically allows for preservation through backups, by non-profit archival organizations. A good example is what Internet Archive is doing. A random person downloading a ROM isn't preserving a thing. With BS Zelda, sure, the people doing the backups were doing good archival work since that was never sold in stores and was specifically designed to be only used "live" along with broadcasts, but that's one of the rare 0.000001%.
As for a "complete" C64 set, nobody who owned a C64 ever owned a complete set, even with the rampant C64 piracy of the time. An individual having a complete ROM set of any major game system is definitely not ethical, I don't know of one that doesn't have officially licensed games or collections on sale (for example, I have an officially licensed C64 collection on iPad).
JayhawkerStL
Banned
I'm not so sure that it does. The one thing a used market does is establish a fair value for content. I don't have a problem with any content producers creating ways that prevent used sales. I also don't have a problem with people refusing to buy content that is laced with DRM that prevents used sales.
I do think that a digital system on the consoles that operates similar to steam would have a net benefit to gain as a whole. Content producers can charge less and less as the revenue their content produces increasingly ends up in the hands of developers and publishers.
I don't think people that buy and sell games are bad. I think we should use the market as it exists. I buy and sell games. but I don't fear and all digital future in which games are no longer available used. The market always adapts.
Right now, it adapts to the publishers and developers getting only a fraction of the revenue their game generates. I don't believe that leads to more games, but rather less investment in making games.
Mailenstein
Member
It doesn't matter what the DMCA allows, because it applies only to the USA. Also, if it were to those people, we wouldn't be this far with the preservation of games. By preserving games I'm talking about people dumping the images and making them accessible forever. As for BS Zelda & Co., how is that a rare exemption? What about Nintendo's WiFi service and it's content which has been shut down? Again, "pirates" came to the rescue. How is this different from a non-profit archival organization?
The officially licensed C64 collection you own on iPad probably contains some games which were ripped of from scene releases, minus the intros/cracktos. Years ago, there were official licensed physical releases with some games being 100% dumped scene version of the original games. They even had the intros/cracktros included lol. So basically what I was trying to say is, these collections could be made, because not the developers, producers etc. but ordinary people preserved them. So when I said "complete C64 set" I meant a physical one, not a ROM set obviously. SNES sets you can complete with enough money at hand, but as for C64, some originals are simply lost and could only be preserved due to the fact that some guy/group dumped them. Also, some companies go bancrupt and take their IPs with them. 100% you never see those IPs again.
So yes, the preservation argument DOES work for more than 0.000001% of all games. A LOT more.