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[StevieP]

For somebody who isn't well-versed in the technical side of things, how big of a performance gap is there between the rumored specs/hardware of the Wii U and PS4/720?

WiiU - Power7-derived 2011 IBM CPU and midrange 2009 GPU part. An (AMD-powered APU) PS4 or 720 = Bulldozer-derived 2011 CPU part and midrange 2011 GPU part (in a neat package designed as a 2012 APU).

 

[dvolovets]

WiiU - midrange 2009 part. An (AMD-powered APU) PS4 or 720 = midrange 2012 part.

Would it be fair to call the midrange 2012 part a high-end 2009 part? In other words, would it be fair to assume that the difference between the Wii U and the PS4/720 won't be nearly as significant as Wii vs. 360/PS3?

 

[iamshadowlark]

WiiU - Power7-derived 2011 IBM CPU and midrange 2009 GPU part. An (AMD-powered APU) PS4 or 720 = Bulldozer-derived 2011 CPU part and midrange 2011 GPU part (in a neat package designed as a 2012 APU).

I would be willing to bet my house that sony isn't touching bulldozer with a ten foot pole.

 

[StevieP]

Would it be fair to call the midrange 2012 part a high-end 2009 part? In other words, would it be fair to assume that the difference between the Wii U and the PS4/720 won't be nearly as significant as Wii vs. 360/PS3?

No, unfortunately GPU tech doesn't work that way. As an example, an AMD 6870 is approximately equivalent to an AMD 5850. There is definitely a benefit to going with an AMD 6000-equivalent vs AMD 4000-equivalent, but it's not a direct correleation like that. If the APU rumours are correct, it won't be a massive gulf (but that depends on a whole host of factors). One thing is certain - you can be sure that whatever goes into a 2013 console will be more powerful than whatever goes into a 2012 console.

I would be willing to bet my house that sony isn't touching bulldozer with a ten foot pole.

Read the HardOCP article. As someone who's been a part of their community for a long time, their ninjas are good.

 

[Mindlog]

Confirmed. Post-Valhalla SoC for full backwards compatibility. Will be used as a PPU for 720 games. I gotta contact Kotaku.

Any chance someone will ever offer premium controllers with Dolby Headphone jacks?

 

[Mrbob]

So Sony and MS both using AMD for CPU and GPU?

One console future?

 

[Kalnos]

So Sony and MS both using AMD for CPU and GPU?

One console future?

Cheaper technology, how does it work?

 

[StevieP]

Confirmed. Post-Valhalla SoC for full backwards compatibility. Will be used as a PPU for 720 games. I gotta contact Kotaku.

They've confirmed an AMD APU with a 360 SoC for BC? Where?

 

[Mindlog]

They've confirmed an AMD APU with a 360 SoC for BC? Where?

My post!

I was just throwing out the random unconfirmed report. Although I guess these days the joke works better with a Eurogamer reference. I still like the never going to happen idea of a Valhalla PPU

I am a bit surprised at the possible APU win for AMD so shortly after their 'Avatar' commentary. I was pretty sure AMD was focused on the value proposition of its APUs. They weren't really characterized as world-beaters. I wonder how much they have up their sleeve for a custom console focused APU.

 

[iamshadowlark]

No, unfortunately GPU tech doesn't work that way. As an example, an AMD 6870 is approximately equivalent to an AMD 5850. There is definitely a benefit to going with an AMD 6000-equivalent vs AMD 4000-equivalent, but it's not a direct correleation like that. If the APU rumours are correct, it won't be a massive gulf (but that depends on a whole host of factors). One thing is certain - you can be sure that whatever goes into a 2013 console will be more powerful than whatever goes into a 2012 console.



Read the HardOCP article. As someone who's been a part of their community for a long time, their ninjas are good.

Only one I see says something about them "flip flopping" between bulldozer and a newer cell. Also its says microsoft is going with cell which I find hard to believe.

EDIT: Oh you must've meant the update. Ok but that still means nothing for sony. I fully expect sony to use a AMD 7xxx variant with 1.5GBs of GDDR5 and a new cell design and about 1.5GBs of XDR2. Maybe they go for unified xdr to make things more conventional, but I don't see bulldozer in sony's future. It makes almost no since to ditch cell for an APU design, the disadvantages far outweigh the advantages.

 

[Durante]

One of the most significant problems with the idea of having GPU and CPU on one chip in a high performance device is memory bandwidth. I'd assume that they'll reduce the impact of that by including a large pool of edram, hopefully enough this time around to get 1080p with AA.

Also, I'm really not sure that it would be a good idea to go with an x86 CPU, particularly Bulldozer, for either of the 2 console manufacturers. There are many disadvantages, the only real reason to accept those would be if you were dead-set on getting both your CPU and GPU on one chip.

 

[Averon]

Remember the HardOCP next gen hardware rumors? Well they posted an update:

For those who know, how much better is this compared to what's on the 360/PS3? Can it pull off Battlefield 3 at 60fps at 1080p?

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

One of the most significant problems with the idea of having GPU and CPU on one chip in a high performance device is memory bandwidth. I'd assume that they'll reduce the impact of that by including a large pool of edram, hopefully enough this time around to get 1080p with AA.

Yeah, now that you mention it I remember several fusion reviews were memory bandwith was shown to bottleneck the GPU.

 

[phosphor112]

I really hope you aren't trying to say that the PCB offsets most of the cost.

Most? No, alot? Yes, they have to buy and craft the PCB to their specs to fit specific motherboards. It doesn't offset "most" of it, but it will cut costs considerably, and you have to be a fool to think otherwise.

 

[velvet_nitemare]

Specs mean nothing. Wii proved graphics and horsepower are not really relevant to gaming.

Did the Wii also prove that online gaming is an afterthought?

 

[Lagspike_exe]

Yeah, now that you mention it I remember several fusion reviews were memory bandwith was shown to bottleneck the GPU.

Again, conventional DDR3 RAM wouldn't go into these consoles. GDDR5 or XDR(2) would.

 

[Luckyman]

For those who know, how much better is this compared to what's on the 360/PS3? Can it pull off Battlefield 3 at 60fps at 1080p?

CPU wise yes.

They don't make any reference to the GPU. But with a standard Fusion hell no

 

[phosphor112]

Why do I feel like the concept of a highly upgraded "Cell" with XDR2 and a modern GPU would trump anything MS put out while investing the same amount.

What do you techies think? Any chance I may be right?

 

[herzogzwei1989]

opps wrong thread.

 

[patsu]

Why do I feel like the concept of a highly upgraded "Cell" with XDR2 and a modern GPU would trump anything MS put out while investing the same amount.

What do you techies think? Any chance I may be right?

I think not. Depends on the system architecture (e.g., memory architecture, how SPUs tie in with the GPU, any new SPU improvements, etc.)

The Compute Shaders in *PC* GPUs are powerful but need to see how they fit in a console, and compare them watt for watt.

 

[Mrbob]

Cheaper technology, how does it work?

I understand this, but at the point where the innards of both pieces of hardware are going to be similar what is the purpose of offering two different consoles? Why pay 800 dollars for two consoles (guessing at 400 bucks each) when you could buy one for 400 and play all the games on it.

Unless next gen the hardware box becomes something like a DVD player where they are exactly the same and you decide what brand you want.

 

[phosphor112]

I think not. Depends on the system architecture (e.g., memory architecture, how SPUs tie in with the GPU, any new SPU improvements, etc.)

The Compute Shaders in *PC* GPUs are powerful but need to see how they fit in a console, and compare them watt for watt.

Well the thing is, the Cell had major bottlenecks everywhere, from the lack of eDRAM to split RAM pools and a gimped GPU, yet it still has arguably the best performance output so far. If they ironed out all those kinks, I think they can make a relatively cheap Cell with extremely high amounts of power. I guess we have to wait and see though.

 

[bgassassin]

I cannot wait to find out exactly how much ^__^

Finding ninjas better than Nintendo's will be tough. We'll need someone to lay down their life.

We have a very good idea as to what the going price for memory is, you should visit semiaccurate forums more if you want to get good info on that. And yes there are other teardowns, but to say they are conflicting based on minute differences is not wise. Isuppli is pretty much the leading firm when it comes to getting quotes from the big companies(Samsung, Elpida, Hynix, Qimonda, etc) when it comes to developing bill of sale approximations. Yes by definition it is an "estimate", but its one of the best estimates you could get. And yes as I said 2GB is the absolute least I expect in a next gen console but 3 or even 4 would not set them back as you all keep trying to insist. 4GB would be a drop in a bucket for the prices these companies can get them for.

I'll check that forum out as I am always willing to learn something new. I don't think the 8-10 (and larger) dollar differences I saw from what you posted (had them up before you added that picture) is minute. I still don't feel you are taking into consideration at the least the factors that have been pointed out in this thread that will keep even bulk orders from being a "drop in the bucket".

I'm expecting at least 2GB as well, but not anything extremely beyond that.

IIRC that statement came from IBM, which means it's talking about the eDRAM of the CPU... unless IMB is using a CPU/GPU combo.... which would go against the AMD GPU rumor.

A possible leak about the early Wii U dev kits had both the CPU and GPU with "large amounts" of eDRAM.

 

[Vilifier]

Initially the speculation that nextbox may use AMD bulldozer instead of IBM powerpc was a little disappointing, because I would prefer to have backwards compatibility. But the more I think about it, it would probably be advantageous for Microsoft to go with AMD bulldozer, so it would simplify bringing x-box live to PC platforms.

X-box live for PC and nextbox would be formidable, and build on Microsoft's money maker. It would be great to be able to use x-box live games on either platform, if Microsoft were to go in that direction.

 

[StevieP]

Initially the speculation that nextbox may use AMD bulldozer instead of IBM powerpc was a little disappointing, because I would prefer to have backwards compatibility. But the more I think about it, it would probably be advantageous for Microsoft to go with AMD bulldozer, so it would simplify bringing x-box live to PC platforms.

If Microsoft is the manufacturer that is going to use a bulldozer-based APU, there is one way to do BC aside from Emulation (which, as you know, won't work out well). And that's to use a SoC design to put the current 360 chipset into the 720. If BC is important to them, it's a solution that will cost a lot of money even in 2013 but will work.

X-box live for PC and nextbox would be formidable, and build on Microsoft's money maker. It would be great to be able to use x-box live games on either platform, if Microsoft were to go in that direction.

In what world do you believe that PC gamers would pay for a peer-to-peer matchmaking service?

 

[Lord Error]

WiiU - Power7-derived 2011 IBM CPU

Do we know this for sure, and where from? IBM's press release has not had a word on Power 7 (or Watson for that matter)

 

[StevieP]

Do we know this for sure, and where from? IBM's press release has not had a word on Power 7 (or Watson for that matter)

Endgaget did. They don't generally make shit up.

 

[DaSorcerer7]

Do we know this for sure, and where from? IBM's press release has not had a word on Power 7 (or Watson for that matter)

I think it came form a interview with engadget.

 

[Lord Error]

I think it came form a interview with engadget.

Even their rumor doesn't say that it's based on Power 7. It just says that the chip has some of the same technology that's in Power 7, which can mean absolutely anything (for example, that both have EDRAM, or even just that both use the same 45nm fabbing)

 

[specialguy]

And it seems that both Sony and MS are doing an AMD APU if HardOCP's ninjas are doing their job as they usually do.

Huh? Hardocp said last week that Xbox 720 would be using a Cell CPU, which was a ridiculous, nigh impossible "rumor". So one week later I guess that's out the door by their own admission? But you're trusting their new rumor?

[H]'s "ninjas" have zero credibility.

 

[aeolist]

My post!

I was just throwing out the random unconfirmed report. Although I guess these days the joke works better with a Eurogamer reference. I still like the never going to happen idea of a Valhalla PPU

I am a bit surprised at the possible APU win for AMD so shortly after their 'Avatar' commentary. I was pretty sure AMD was focused on the value proposition of its APUs. They weren't really characterized as world-beaters. I wonder how much they have up their sleeve for a custom console focused APU.

If true this would be a desperately needed design win for AMD.

 

[clav]

Initially the speculation that nextbox may use AMD bulldozer instead of IBM powerpc was a little disappointing, because I would prefer to have backwards compatibility. But the more I think about it, it would probably be advantageous for Microsoft to go with AMD bulldozer, so it would simplify bringing x-box live to PC platforms.

X-box live for PC and nextbox would be formidable, and build on Microsoft's money maker. It would be great to be able to use x-box live games on either platform, if Microsoft were to go in that direction.

The CPU mostly likely will be a design that will succeed Bulldozer, so that AMD's future processors will be as so if Microsoft chooses to go with an AMD CPU.

However, I don't think Microsoft would do that considering that the Xbox 360 is based on IBM PowerPC cores. If MS is serious about using an AMD CPU, then once again, backwards compatibility will have to rely on software and some extremely low-level programming (Assembly).

 

[DaSorcerer7]

Even their rumor doesn't say that it's based on Power 7. It just says that the chip has some of the same technology that's in Power 7, which can mean absolutely anything (for example, that both have EDRAM, or even just that both use the same 45nm fabbing)

doesn't it infer that since power6 and power6+ are 65nm and power5 are 90nm, and only the power7 use 45nm tech..that and other similarities to the watson suggest that its a power7

 

[gwarm01]

I wish we could get at least a sliver of actual information on these consoles. I can't take nearly a full year of constant bickering about details we have absolutely no information on. It pulls me in every single time.

 

[clav]

I wish we could get at least a sliver of actual information on these consoles. I can't take nearly a full year of constant bickering about details we have absolutely no information on. It pulls me in every single time.

I would rather be surprised at E3 2012 or sometime in May with probably another "You are the colony" stunt.

Otherwise, an early reveal will diminish the anticipation for next year's show.

 

[iamshadowlark]

I wish we could get at least a sliver of actual information on these consoles. I can't take nearly a full year of constant bickering about details we have absolutely no information on. It pulls me in every single time.

Isn't it fun though?

 

[Dupy]

I would rather be surprised at E3 2012 or sometime in May with probably another "You are the colony" stunt.

Otherwise, an early reveal will diminish the anticipation for next year's show.

This is Microsoft we're talking about. If it exists info will be leaked well before E3 '12.

 

[McHuj]

doesn't it infer that since power6 and power6+ are 65nm and power5 are 90nm, and only the power7 use 45nm tech..that and other similarities to the watson suggest that its a power7

Not really. You can shrink a processor down to a smaller node.

The engagdet quote with regards to Watson is:

It's a silicon on insulator design and packs the same processor technology found in Watson

That's it, no specifics.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Too bad Wii U is making MS feel pressured. Nintendo has no answer for Live and at best the Wii U is only marginally more powerful than the current gen hardware. Hardly seems like enough to force your launch up a full year. Now if they had done it on rumors of a PS4 in 2013 I would have understood.

That will probably compromise the power of the Xbox 720 somewhere around 20%, assuming the usual annual GPU speed gains are any indication.

:-(

 

[StevieP]

Not really. You can shrink a processor down to a smaller node.

The engagdet quote with regards to Watson is:



That's it, no specifics.

"Large amount of EDRAM" on the CPU is quite specific.

Huh? Hardocp said last week that Xbox 720 would be using a Cell CPU, which was a ridiculous, nigh impossible "rumor". So one week later I guess that's out the door by their own admission? But you're trusting their new rumor?

[H]'s "ninjas" have zero credibility.

It's not at all ridiculous. The PPE CPU inside the PS3's Cell and the 360's Tri-Core are basically identical. Most people don't seem to know this.

at best the Wii U is only marginally more powerful than the current gen hardware.

If you know something that none of us knows, please post it.

 

[patsu]

Well the thing is, the Cell had major bottlenecks everywhere, from the lack of eDRAM to split RAM pools and a gimped GPU, yet it still has arguably the best performance output so far. If they ironed out all those kinks, I think they can make a relatively cheap Cell with extremely high amounts of power. I guess we have to wait and see though.

Those are system design, not CPU design. >_<
You can use a different GPU if you want.
Cell doesn't need edram because it has LocalStore and DMA capability. Sony can add edram say for the GPU if necessary. IBM's Cell server has unified memory. In any case NUMA is not evil. The memory in PS3 is just too small.

 

[ii Stryker]

In what world do you believe that PC gamers would pay for a peer-to-peer matchmaking service?

If MS's goal is to better integrate cross platform play between PC and the nextbox by using the bulldozer tech, wouldn't it also make it easier for publishers to utilize dedicated servers?

 

[StevieP]

If MS's goal is to better integrate cross platform play between PC and the nextbox by using the bulldozer tech, wouldn't it also make it easier for publishers to utilize dedicated servers?

Cross-platform play will probably never happen. No matter the amount of autoaim you put on a gamepad, you'd get absolutely smoked by a mouse. The accuracy differences are insurmountable. Even the Wiimote doesn't approach that level of accuracy, and it uses infrared triangulation to create its pointer. In the extremely unlikely case you'd have a console CoD (as an example) with dedicated servers, PC and console users would probably be separated.

 

[clav]

This is Microsoft we're talking about. If it exists info will be leaked well before E3 '12.

If I remember correctly, that didn't happen with the Xbox 360 due to the campaign.

Cross-platform play will probably never happen. No matter the amount of autoaim you put on a gamepad, you'd get absolutely smoked by a mouse. The accuracy differences are insurmountable. Even the Wiimote doesn't approach that level of accuracy, and it uses infrared triangulation to create its pointer. In the extremely unlikely case you'd have a console CoD (as an example) with dedicated servers, PC and console users would probably be separated.

Cross-platform happened with the X360 with Shadowrun.

I wouldn't be surprised if MS wants to try this approach again as MS's strategy is all about integrity and the cloud.

 

[itsgreen]

If MS's goal is to better integrate cross platform play between PC and the nextbox by using the bulldozer tech, wouldn't it also make it easier for publishers to utilize dedicated servers?

No none at all...

Its like saying blue cars are faster, even dedicated servers for 360 are pc based. It's just network protocols and stuff... doesn't really matter what CPU is inside...

 

[Death Dealer]

It's not at all ridiculous. The PPE CPU inside the PS3's Cell and the 360's Tri-Core are basically identical. Most people don't seem to know this.

The "Cell" is a PPE with multiple SPEs.

If the next Xbox uses an updated variation of Xenon, I sure as hell wouldn't call it a cell processor.