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Fallout 4 teased by ThreeDog voice actor Erik Todd Dellums

Martian

Member
As excited as I am, I'm going to guess for Fallout: Online.
It was announced that something like that was about to be going in production, so I thing Bethesda won't make another ES/Fallout game until next gen.

Which is not a good thing, because I don't see it happening. Why would I want to play singleplayer games like ES and Fallout online? I'm having a blast on my own, and the only thing that sounds awesome (in ES:eek:nline) is the whole of Tamriel.


No thank you, I want to have silly options and moral questions in my singleplayer.
 

zkylon

zkylewd
Really I can't understand how anyone can think VATS is good as anything other than a lazy fixjob for the shooting mechanics being total trash in FO3, specially compared to the shittiest of shooters.

How did you feel about it in New Vegas?
It's just as bad (ironsights do go a long way, tho), except that everything else is so great you don't care so much. Also mods improve the core shooting a lot to the point I never used it. This is true for FO3 as well, to the point it almost becomes something like a STALKER game, shitty dialogue and all.
 

Lancehead

Member
wwWow.

I have never heard this one. Can you elaborate please

Where do I begin?

It's a lame attempt to cater to Fallout 1 & 2 fans. It's like turn based, except only the player gets the turns. The pc only receives 10 % of normal damage in VATs mode. In other words, God Mode while the AP last (you can get a mass of those anyway). You can locate enemies in an instance, so your PER is useless there. You can see invisible ones too, for goodness sake. Melee and Unarmed don't have body parts to target, which means you'll have the maximum possible chance to hit. Not to mention it actually teleports you to the enemies. Retarded shit.

Basically they tried to include a combat mode where skill of the character is more important than skill of the player (what an alien concept for a proclaimed RPG!), but failed hard.

How did you feel about it in New Vegas?

Like with most everything they improved the atrocious base of Fallout 3.

They increased the damage received to 75 % of normal damage. You can target body parts in Melee and Unarmed, so now targetting the head actually has a lower chance than targetting the torso.
 

FGMPR

Banned
I just thought of something. Why is New Vegas called 'New Vegas' when its not actually a new city? It's not like Berlin was re-named 'New Berlin' or Tokyo was re-named 'New Toyko' after they were bombed in WW2.
 

diamount

Banned
I just thought of something. Why is New Vegas called 'New Vegas' when its not actually a new city? It's not like Berlin was re-named 'New Berlin' or Tokyo was re-named 'New Toyko' after they were bombed in WW2.

It's probable it's not the original Vegas, it is far in the future.
 

Horse Detective

Why the long case?
I just thought of something. Why is New Vegas called 'New Vegas' when its not actually a new city? It's not like Berlin was re-named 'New Berlin' or Tokyo was re-named 'New Toyko' after they were bombed in WW2.

Vegas was not bombed, according to the plot.

I am not sure why the name change though.
 

NBtoaster

Member
When the game is announced, will people be in every thread about the game proclaiming New Vegas'/Obsidian's superiority like this one?
 

DocSeuss

Member
First I've heard of that genre but I'll take it. As long as they're not called RPGs anymore, because it's insulting to the genre.

Your avatar character is from an immersive sim.

Imsims are basically games that combine simulation elements with role-playing elements. The core idea behind it is that, well, players are in the game's world. That's what drives everything. Bethesda's always focused more on creating a world than the people of that world, however, and they've focused on making broad experiences, where everyone can be anything, rather than specializing.

Looking Glass (y'know, the greatest developers of all time) created the genre with Ultima Underworld, and from there went on to games like Thief and System Shock 2. Spector left them and went on to create Deus Ex, which was heavily influenced by Harvey Spector. Since then, we've had games like STALKER, Bioshock, and so on and so forth.

Back in the day, Looking Glass had some sort of relationship with Bethesda, who, among other things, created Madden. Looking Glass were the guys who actually made the series popular, but that's kind of a story for another day.

Anyways, The Elder Scrolls came about, as I understand it, when Bethesda went "holy fuck, Ultima Underworld is the greatest fucking thing ever; we have to do this!"

So they've been developing games in their own vein--their take on Looking Glass's concept (and part of that was to create big, open worlds, rather than focus on the concept of designed experiences like Looking Glass). They've got some ex-Looking Glass staff as well, iirc, like Emil Pagliarulo. He was, iirc, the guy responsible for Oblivion's Dark Brotherhood questline (which, I am told, is the best part of the game), as well as Fallout 3 and the Dark Brotherhood/Thieves' Guild questlines in Skyrim.

Anyways, yeah, Bethesda makes games that are sort of the... evolution of the RPG. Basically, they're what RPGs have been trying to be ever since they were war games--that is, simulated adventures.

Of course, when talking about evolution of gametypes, one doesn't always mean that evolution is an improvement (see: 3D vs 2D platformers--both are completely legitimate forms of expression, but 3D is an evolution of 2D), and I don't mean that here.

It's just a different kind of game, and to go into their games with the expectation you'll be playing an RPG isn't really accurate. You'll be playing a Looking Glass-influenced game that leans a bit more heavily on role-playing elements and open world nature than emphasizing simulation and design.

That's why I take issue with the suggestion that Skyrim is "dumbed down." It isn't. It's just moved the numbers out of view as best it can, trying to emphasize the act of being within a living, breathing world as best they can. It's trying to move away from being an RPG, or at least, the traditional, limited definition of RPG (because really, a role-playing game, at its purest, would be one where you take on, in body and thought, the form of anothe rperson in another world--the holodeck).

They're trying to create virtual realities.

So

to answer your question from elsewhere, the one that asked why they're so popular, it's... because they've done one of the most important, powerful things that video games do: they put players within a living, breathing world.

Could it be better? Absolutely. Games like Far Cry and Dishonored do the whole "sense of place" thing better. STALKER decimates their games in terms of atmosphere and artificial intelligence. Obsidian has better narratives (interspersed with really shitty writing) and quest structure in their games. Crysis has better graphics.

But nobody gets the idea of open, free world as well as Bethesda.

That's why they are, and will continue to be popular. That's where their power and appeal comes from. They're fun worlds to inhabit.

And that is why I will be there, day one, to buy whatever game they release next.

That's also why New Vegas wasn't as well received--it's not a fun world to inhabit, it's a fun RPG to play. The use of the first-person, immersive perspective was wasted by Obsidian. They really fucked up horrendously, because they had no idea what they were making a sequel to (and yeah, I get the irony of what I just said, because the people on that team created Fallout, but the modern expectations--and Bethesda's, were for a more immersive game like Fallout 3). They made another classic Fallout game, but failed to make use of the camera perspective and engine they had to use. It'd be like someone being told to make a Metroid Prime game, and making a first-person Metroid game--but having players fundamentally play it like a 2D metroid (jumping up and down, moving only two directions, etc).
 
I'd rather not with the amount of RAM the Wii U has and how slow it is, not to mention the CPU. This does bring up a good point and that is whoever is developing the next ES and FO need a huge lesson in menu design.

Nintendo have sacrificed high bandwidth for low latency with the RAM, so you might want to use a different word than 'slow'. And we really don't know much about the CPU. You'll have more pop-in, more jaggies and perhaps a lower resolution and textures but, contrary to popular belief, we're not going to have another Wii/PS3/360 situation again this gen with regards to the difference in power between the consoles - unless of course you want to spend over a grand on a console that's the size of a small house (well, a desktop PC anyway lol) with a fan with the same decibel level of a 747.
 

Patryn

Member
So, when do you guys think we're going to hear/see something? (Providing this really is is Fallout 4 related, etc).

Can't be that far off, I'm thinking.

Given the rumors of the Boston setting, let me just remind people that PAX East is in Boston.

I wouldn't be shocked to see the equivalent of the VGA Skyrim trailer there, then full gameplay reveal at E3.
 

Ordinator

Member
Really I can't understand how anyone can think VATS is good as anything other than a lazy fixjob for the shooting mechanics being total trash in FO3, specially compared to the shittiest of shooters.

I liked it a lot. I thought the cinematic look was cool and it allowed me to play at a more relaxed pace. With VATS I didn't have to play with my elbows on my knees like I do for Halo multiplayer. I could sit back and play it more like an rpg. Being able to switch between free aim and VATS was awesome.
 

Patryn

Member
Really I can't understand how anyone can think VATS is good as anything other than a lazy fixjob for the shooting mechanics being total trash in FO3, specially compared to the shittiest of shooters.


It's just as bad (ironsights do go a long way, tho), except that everything else is so great you don't care so much. Also mods improve the core shooting a lot to the point I never used it. This is true for FO3 as well, to the point it almost becomes something like a STALKER game, shitty dialogue and all.

I never saw it as a FPS, so the crappy shooting mechanics never bothered me. I always saw it as an RPG, so VATS worked. I just thought of it like an ATB system.
 

Wanny

Member
I tried to get into Fallout 3 and Fallout Vegas but both games were just way too ugly for me.

With some mods and a higher ugrid you can have quite a decent looking FO3. Don't bother with New Vegas tho. Obsidian made an irreversible bland boring ugly looking game. Mojave wasteland deserved better than that.
 
They have a high bar to climb to top NV.

Eh, not really. While New Vegas was good, it didn't compare to Fallout 3. The capital wasteland was a much better location. The game world was more dark and depressing which I loved. The story is better and definitely the soundtrack and the radio. I had a much better gaming experience with Fallout 3. I hope Fallout 4 has that same vibe, but with everything improved of course.
 
With some mods and a higher ugrid you can have quite a decent looking FO3. Don't bother with New Vegas tho. Obsidian made an irreversible bland boring ugly looking game. Mojave wasteland deserved better than that.

I'll check it out, Skyrim with mods was a revelation.
 

BigTnaples

Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
The fact that you cite KotOR II here demonstrates you have no clue what you're talking about. KotOR II is nothing like KotOR I, or typical Star Wars in general.

Nothing like is a bit of a stretch. Tonally sure. But I never refuted that. NV is tonally very differnt from FO3. That really has nothing to do with the point I was making.




The "be everything, do everything" design philosophy is a curse to roeplaying.


You say this, and its fine because that is very subjective, but I see it as the evolution of roleplaying. Every manual(did Skyrim come with a manual?) for TES games has always come with an intro describing the very design philoophy you stated. And I have "Role Played" more in TES games than any other game in existance. I find the TES games are more of a RPG than any JRPG, or the Witcher, or any of the older types of RPG. Because TES games allow me to actually play a role. Create a character and a history for myself. Go out into a massive world, meet new people and interact with them as I please. Exploring vast cities, or tombs. Exploring ancient ruins of dead civilizations. Treking through a rainstorm and stopping at an inn in the dead of night, getting changed out of my armor, having a drink and a bite to eat, then resting until just before dawn, when I set out again, watch the sun rise over the hills, not knowing what the next encounter will bring me. Rolling with the punches and sometimes messing things up due to my mistakes. THAT is true role playing. And Bethesda understands this. The more behind the scenes the number crunching is, the better.

The people that are so stuck to this "golden standard of RPG" that to them means a D&D set of rules, numbers, being stuck in classes, having a linear path with dialouge choices being the differentiator, etc etc bother me. You are living in the past. Sure I love me some old school RPGs as well, and they have their place. But saying something is "Not an RPG" because it does not fit your outdated standard of what an RPG should be, is not the right way to go about it.

To be clear I do take issues with some things Bethesda has done, including some things that ARE "dumbed down". But there is nothing wrong with streamlining, and it is the future of roleplaying. Knowing the difference is essential.


I'll buy it if they make a half-decent RPG. There's zero chance they can make a worthy Fallout game, which is why I'm happy they stay on the East Coast, and leave the West Coast alone. Makes it easier for me to consider everything Bethesda as non canon rubbish spin-offs

I dont see in as black and white as you do. I prefer Bethesdas vision of FO, but I will still buy and enjoy the hell out of Obsidians.


A beyond-shitty alternative to turn based combat.

Again, your opinion, but you are in the minority here. (Nothing wrong with turn based, I play Civ and Endless Space all the time)

.
 

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
I wanted to quote him too, but that line about KOTOR II not being anything like KOTOR I was just self-defeating, especially given the context in which the original quote was given. KOTOR II was absolutely built on KOTOR I. Like, factually.
 

Lancehead

Member
BigTnaples

I'm not quite sure why you keep telling me my opinions are opinions.

I'm also not sure you quite understand why "be everything, do everything" is not roleplaying. Roleplaying involves making choices that are meaningful, in other words, they come with constraints. And playing that role has meaningful impact on the world.

This
Treking through a rainstorm and stopping at an inn in the dead of night, getting changed out of my armor, having a drink and a bite to eat, then resting until just before dawn, when I set out again, watch the sun rise over the hills, not knowing what the next encounter will bring me.

is not roleplaying. It's meaningless, it's fluff, the game doesn't acknowledge it, nor react to it. It's just you, the player, that bothers with it. The computer, the game, doesn't care. It's play-pretend. And that's not roleplaying.

A proper roleplaying game has systems that allow for the player to make many conscious decisions that help define the role of the player-character. These decisions are only meaningful if playing a certain role means it's distinct from other possible roles in tangible ways. In other words, the things the pc cannot do help define the role just as much as the things that the pc can. If the pc can theoretically "do everything and be everything", then you're not playing a role, but a god.

Then the Good Roleplaying Game™ creates content to support that role, to react to the actions that the player takes. This is done through mechanics - combat, dialogue, non-combat etc. The more the actions taken by the player are carried through these mechanics, the more playing a role is meaningful in ways the world is able to react to them. This includes narrative.

Regarding numbers, they are the best only way to define a role. The numbers determine what the pc can do and cannot do in the world, how the world reacts to what the pc does. There are various ways this can be done, types of granularities, but numbers are the base of systems and mechanics.

Of course, you'll probably reply that this is all my opinion and it's subjective! Well, duh! And to that I might respond by saying opinions like yours are the reason Bethesda don't make games Morrowind anymore.

But there is nothing wrong with streamlining, and it is the future of roleplaying.

Thank goodness there's Kickstarter.
 
Can someone explain to me what's so deep about New Vegas's roleplaying anyway? It's nothing more than a question of which factor you want to help.
 

Lancehead

Member
I wanted to quote him too, but that line about KOTOR II not being anything like KOTOR I was just self-defeating, especially given the context in which the original quote was given. KOTOR II was absolutely built on KOTOR I. Like, factually.

KotOR II really is nothing like KotOR I except, um, they're both Star Wars. KotOR II uses the D&D Lite system of I, but the context was talking about what Obsidian does best. i.e. Narrative, characters etc. in case of KotOR II.
 
Can someone explain to me what's so deep about New Vegas's roleplaying anyway? It's nothing more than a question of which factor you want to help.
No, it's not. Many quests have far more options in how to complete them, and dialogue trees and quests allow you to utilize your skills, perks, stats, and past actions more often and more meaningfully.

I.e., the role you've been playing in the game is much more integral to the experience.
 

Currygan

at last, for christ's sake
When the game is announced, will people be in every thread about the game proclaiming New Vegas'/Obsidian's superiority like this one?

they will never stop. I'll never stop ignoring them, though, since I loved FO3 way more than NV and be bloody sure I'll get a Bethesda made FO game on day zero. At least it's bound to have better radios than the incredibly shite Radio New Vegas
 

Metroidvania

People called Romanes they go the house?
I wanted to quote him too, but that line about KOTOR II not being anything like KOTOR I was just self-defeating, especially given the context in which the original quote was given. KOTOR II was absolutely built on KOTOR I. Like, factually.

To be fair, KOTOR 2 does lift (almost directly) from 1 in its backstory in the history/franchise and background/combat systems.

However, the narrative, and definitions/beliefs of both the overall design of KOTOR 2 as well as the way the party members express themselves regarding the force and its place in the universe are hugely different from KOTOR 1's "Choose your good/evil option" story. Kreia is so much more complex than Malak it isn't even funny.

Not to mention the complexity of the Exile/Kreia interaction both during and at end-game when compared to something like KOTOR's Bastila conversation or even Malak are leaps apart from each other.
 

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
KotOR II really is nothing like KotOR I except, um, they're both Star Wars. KotOR II uses the D&D Lite system of I, but the context was talking about what Obsidian does best. i.e. Narrative, characters etc. in case of KotOR II.

And you know. The combat system. Returning characters. Settings.

Yes, KOTOR II was much more advanced. But it absolutely, unequivocally, was built off the framework of KOTOR I. The context was that Obsidian is best when continuing series, like New Vegas, KOTOR II, MOTB. KOTOR II is a continuation of KOTOR I.
To be fair, KOTOR 2 does lift (almost directly) from 1 in its backstory in the history/franchise and background/combat systems.

However, the narrative, and definitions/beliefs of both the overall design of KOTOR 2 as well as the way the party members express themselves regarding the force and its place in the universe are hugely different from KOTOR 1's "Choose your good/evil option" story. Kreia is so much more complex than Malak it isn't even funny.

Not to mention the complexity of the Exile/Kreia interaction both during and at end-game when compared to something like KOTOR's Bastila conversation or even Malak are leaps apart from each other.

Right, they built a much better story off the gameplay framework of the first game. Saying KOTOR II isn't built off KOTOR I and then using that to tell somebody "they have no clue what they're talking about" is just...odd.
 

Lancehead

Member
The context was "Obsidian does best when they are standing on the shoulders of others. Basically modding and enhancing the previous works" while responding to "zealot" of Obsidian's cause.

What Obsidian does best (and is praised for by zealots) is not system design (with the exception of New Vegas), or combat mechanics (they've always been bad at this), but content design and certain mechanics. KotOR II does not build on KotOR I there.

The setting is Star Wars, that's not building on KotOR I, rather both games using it. Returning characters? I guess, but if you want to get technical there's not much point arguing.
 

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
The context was "Obsidian does best when they are standing on the shoulders of others. Basically modding and enhancing the previous works" while responding to "zealot" of Obsidian's cause.

What Obsidian does best (and is praised for by zealots) is not system design (with the exception of New Vegas), or combat mechanics (they've always been bad at this), but content design and certain mechanics. KotOR II does not build on KotOR I there.

The setting is Star Wars, that's not building on KotOR I, rather both games using it. Returning characters? I guess, but if you want to get technical there's not much point arguing.

It's builds wholly on the mechanics. Entirely. Mechanically, they're not very different. What is different is how they approach the world, characters and storytelling. The combat, the underlying planet-hopping, visual engine was already built for Obsidian. They but the stew together, but the ingredients were already there. I don't see how this is a point of contention, or even up for debate, honestly.
 

BigTnaples

Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
Your avatar character is from an immersive sim.

Imsims are basically games that combine simulation elements with role-playing elements. The core idea behind it is that, well, players are in the game's world. That's what drives everything. Bethesda's always focused more on creating a world than the people of that world, however, and they've focused on making broad experiences, where everyone can be anything, rather than specializing.

Looking Glass (y'know, the greatest developers of all time) created the genre with Ultima Underworld, and from there went on to games like Thief and System Shock 2. Spector left them and went on to create Deus Ex, which was heavily influenced by Harvey Spector. Since then, we've had games like STALKER, Bioshock, and so on and so forth.

Back in the day, Looking Glass had some sort of relationship with Bethesda, who, among other things, created Madden. Looking Glass were the guys who actually made the series popular, but that's kind of a story for another day.

Anyways, The Elder Scrolls came about, as I understand it, when Bethesda went "holy fuck, Ultima Underworld is the greatest fucking thing ever; we have to do this!"

So they've been developing games in their own vein--their take on Looking Glass's concept (and part of that was to create big, open worlds, rather than focus on the concept of designed experiences like Looking Glass). They've got some ex-Looking Glass staff as well, iirc, like Emil Pagliarulo. He was, iirc, the guy responsible for Oblivion's Dark Brotherhood questline (which, I am told, is the best part of the game), as well as Fallout 3 and the Dark Brotherhood/Thieves' Guild questlines in Skyrim.

Anyways, yeah, Bethesda makes games that are sort of the... evolution of the RPG. Basically, they're what RPGs have been trying to be ever since they were war games--that is, simulated adventures.

Of course, when talking about evolution of gametypes, one doesn't always mean that evolution is an improvement (see: 3D vs 2D platformers--both are completely legitimate forms of expression, but 3D is an evolution of 2D), and I don't mean that here.

It's just a different kind of game, and to go into their games with the expectation you'll be playing an RPG isn't really accurate. You'll be playing a Looking Glass-influenced game that leans a bit more heavily on role-playing elements and open world nature than emphasizing simulation and design.

That's why I take issue with the suggestion that Skyrim is "dumbed down." It isn't. It's just moved the numbers out of view as best it can, trying to emphasize the act of being within a living, breathing world as best they can. It's trying to move away from being an RPG, or at least, the traditional, limited definition of RPG (because really, a role-playing game, at its purest, would be one where you take on, in body and thought, the form of anothe rperson in another world--the holodeck).

They're trying to create virtual realities.

So

to answer your question from elsewhere, the one that asked why they're so popular, it's... because they've done one of the most important, powerful things that video games do: they put players within a living, breathing world.

Could it be better? Absolutely. Games like Far Cry and Dishonored do the whole "sense of place" thing better. STALKER decimates their games in terms of atmosphere and artificial intelligence. Obsidian has better narratives (interspersed with really shitty writing) and quest structure in their games. Crysis has better graphics.

But nobody gets the idea of open, free world as well as Bethesda.

That's why they are, and will continue to be popular. That's where their power and appeal comes from. They're fun worlds to inhabit.

And that is why I will be there, day one, to buy whatever game they release next.

That's also why New Vegas wasn't as well received--it's not a fun world to inhabit, it's a fun RPG to play. The use of the first-person, immersive perspective was wasted by Obsidian. They really fucked up horrendously, because they had no idea what they were making a sequel to (and yeah, I get the irony of what I just said, because the people on that team created Fallout, but the modern expectations--and Bethesda's, were for a more immersive game like Fallout 3). They made another classic Fallout game, but failed to make use of the camera perspective and engine they had to use. It'd be like someone being told to make a Metroid Prime game, and making a first-person Metroid game--but having players fundamentally play it like a 2D metroid (jumping up and down, moving only two directions, etc).



I can't tell you how much I agree with this. As if I wrote it.
 

BigTnaples

Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
BigTnaples

I'm not quite sure why you keep telling me my opinions are opinions.

Of course, you'll probably reply that this is all my opinion and it's subjective! Well, duh! And to that I might respond by saying opinions like yours are the reason Bethesda don't make games Morrowind.


Have I replied to you more than once or something?

And you are right, in the scenario I described, from Morrowind, the game did not react to what I did very much if at all.

However with Skyrim, the game very much reacts to what I do, who I am "friends" with, who I have killed, what factions I side with. Sure its not perfect, but it feels more alive than anything Obsidian did with New Vegas.

Sure NV has a million different ways to complete quests or ally with certain factions, and that in and of it self is enjoyable. However everything that can be done, and exactly how it can be done is static and really just amounts to more typing and writing on Obsidians part. For every way a quest can be done and how it affects your stance, it can all be found in a strategy guide.

The way things fold out in Oblivion or Skyrim is more dynamic, based upon systems, not hand crafted. That does not make one lesser than the other, it makes them different, and I for one am glad we have both.

And I laugh in your face at the fact that you say opinions like mine are the reason Beth does not make games like Morrowind anymore. I play Morrowind several times per year, every year, since 2002. It is in my mind the best RPG ever created. Hell I even used it as a term with friends to compliment something "That is very Morrowind".. And I, (as I previously stated in this very thread) have bashed bethesda a bit for dumbing down TES after Morrowind. But they also streamlined several areas, and that is for the best.

And that is where you validate my accusation that you don't understand the difference between streamlining and dumbing down. Thats fine, its a mistake many people make. That is fine.


But yes, it is your opinion, and you are very toxic with your delivery of said opinion. So I will agree to disagree with you. I will go on enjoying great games from Obsidian and Bethesda while you continue to take stands against developers for being different.
 

Slermy

Member
That's why I take issue with the suggestion that Skyrim is "dumbed down." It isn't. It's just moved the numbers out of view as best it can, trying to emphasize the act of being within a living, breathing world as best they can. It's trying to move away from being an RPG, or at least, the traditional, limited definition of RPG (because really, a role-playing game, at its purest, would be one where you take on, in body and thought, the form of anothe rperson in another world--the holodeck).

They're trying to create virtual realities.

So

to answer your question from elsewhere, the one that asked why they're so popular, it's... because they've done one of the most important, powerful things that video games do: they put players within a living, breathing world.

Could it be better? Absolutely. Games like Far Cry and Dishonored do the whole "sense of place" thing better. STALKER decimates their games in terms of atmosphere and artificial intelligence. Obsidian has better narratives (interspersed with really shitty writing) and quest structure in their games. Crysis has better graphics.

But nobody gets the idea of open, free world as well as Bethesda.

That's why they are, and will continue to be popular. That's where their power and appeal comes from. They're fun worlds to inhabit.

And that is why I will be there, day one, to buy whatever game they release next.

*Slow clap*
 

spirity

Member
Yeah, same. I run around in a Bethesda game, just grinning like an idiot. Sure, the games have their faults. And they're not as deep or complex as other games. But the worlds Bethesda create are extraordinary. I don't know if its the settings they choose, if its the Jeremy Soule (or Ink Spots in Fallouts case) soundtrack that plays as you crest that ridge, if its the vast environment you're adventuring in, or if its that moment when you exit the vault or sewer and see what lays before you. But its something remarkable, and I haven't found it in any other developer.
 
However with Skyrim, the game very much reacts to what I do, who I am "friends" with, who I have killed, what factions I side with. Sure its not perfect, but it feels more alive than anything Obsidian did with New Vegas.

No it doesn't. I ended a years-long civil war in Skyrim and two people reacted to it. They said angry things before happily selling me weapons and armor. I became the leader of multiple contradictory factions who should be blood enemies and nobody cared.
 
My dream Fallout (or any RPG really) would be a real collaboration between Bethesda and Obsidian. They could really make something beautiful together, but they would also need at least a year of QA to make sure there are no major bugs.

I'd so love a team with Todd Howard, Emil Pagliarulo, Chris Avellone and Josh Sawyer on it.
 

BigTnaples

Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
No it doesn't. I ended a years-long civil war in Skyrim and two people reacted to it. They said angry things before happily selling me weapons and armor. I became the leader of multiple contradictory factions who should be blood enemies and nobody cared.


You are talking about the questline, I am not.


And as I have said multiple times in this thread. Factions, was the single biggest improvement Obsidian made, that and more involved dialogue trees.
 
You are talking about the questline, I am not.

If I'm a lycanthrope Imperial-loyal Redguard who is in the thrall of several daedra at once, I should not be able to walk around a Talos-worshipping Stormcloak Nord city without anybody caring and happily giving me quests and rewards. If I murder the Emperor himself, Imperial soldiers should not welcome me with open arms or act as if it's a minor occurrence.

That's not role-playing. That's pressing buttons while a series of crisp images flashes before your eyes and ambient sounds hit your ears. It's fantasy porn designed to stimulate your reptile brain, not roleplaying.
 

Hindle

Banned
Different clans or factions that have different missions is something that's needed. F3 was so boring in its side content I found.

I really liked the detective style missions in New Vegas, where you were sent to investigate different groups, more of that please.
 

NBtoaster

Member
If I'm a lycanthrope Imperial-loyal Redguard who is in the thrall of several daedra at once, I should not be able to walk around a Talos-worshipping Stormcloak Nord city without anybody caring and happily giving me quests and rewards. If I murder the Emperor himself, Imperial soldiers should not welcome me with open arms or act as if it's a minor occurrence.

That's not role-playing. That's pressing buttons while a series of crisp images flashes before your eyes and ambient sounds hit your ears. It's fantasy porn designed to stimulate your reptile brain, not roleplaying.

Be able to do everything in one playthrough is an advantage of Bethesda games, even if it results in some consistency problems.
 

Almighty

Member
Your avatar character is from an immersive sim.

Imsims are basically games that combine simulation elements with role-playing elements. The core idea behind it is that, well, players are in the game's world. That's what drives everything. Bethesda's always focused more on creating a world than the people of that world, however, and they've focused on making broad experiences, where everyone can be anything, rather than specializing.

Looking Glass (y'know, the greatest developers of all time) created the genre with Ultima Underworld, and from there went on to games like Thief and System Shock 2. Spector left them and went on to create Deus Ex, which was heavily influenced by Harvey Spector. Since then, we've had games like STALKER, Bioshock, and so on and so forth.

Back in the day, Looking Glass had some sort of relationship with Bethesda, who, among other things, created Madden. Looking Glass were the guys who actually made the series popular, but that's kind of a story for another day.

Anyways, The Elder Scrolls came about, as I understand it, when Bethesda went "holy fuck, Ultima Underworld is the greatest fucking thing ever; we have to do this!"

So they've been developing games in their own vein--their take on Looking Glass's concept (and part of that was to create big, open worlds, rather than focus on the concept of designed experiences like Looking Glass). They've got some ex-Looking Glass staff as well, iirc, like Emil Pagliarulo. He was, iirc, the guy responsible for Oblivion's Dark Brotherhood questline (which, I am told, is the best part of the game), as well as Fallout 3 and the Dark Brotherhood/Thieves' Guild questlines in Skyrim.

Anyways, yeah, Bethesda makes games that are sort of the... evolution of the RPG. Basically, they're what RPGs have been trying to be ever since they were war games--that is, simulated adventures.

Of course, when talking about evolution of gametypes, one doesn't always mean that evolution is an improvement (see: 3D vs 2D platformers--both are completely legitimate forms of expression, but 3D is an evolution of 2D), and I don't mean that here.

It's just a different kind of game, and to go into their games with the expectation you'll be playing an RPG isn't really accurate. You'll be playing a Looking Glass-influenced game that leans a bit more heavily on role-playing elements and open world nature than emphasizing simulation and design.

That's why I take issue with the suggestion that Skyrim is "dumbed down." It isn't. It's just moved the numbers out of view as best it can, trying to emphasize the act of being within a living, breathing world as best they can. It's trying to move away from being an RPG, or at least, the traditional, limited definition of RPG (because really, a role-playing game, at its purest, would be one where you take on, in body and thought, the form of anothe rperson in another world--the holodeck).

They're trying to create virtual realities.

So

to answer your question from elsewhere, the one that asked why they're so popular, it's... because they've done one of the most important, powerful things that video games do: they put players within a living, breathing world.

Could it be better? Absolutely. Games like Far Cry and Dishonored do the whole "sense of place" thing better. STALKER decimates their games in terms of atmosphere and artificial intelligence. Obsidian has better narratives (interspersed with really shitty writing) and quest structure in their games. Crysis has better graphics.

But nobody gets the idea of open, free world as well as Bethesda.

That's why they are, and will continue to be popular. That's where their power and appeal comes from. They're fun worlds to inhabit.

And that is why I will be there, day one, to buy whatever game they release next.

Is it the first person perspective that makes a game an immersive sim? Can games like Gothic or Risen or the Witcher be counted as one?

I am just asking because I can't think of anything Bethesda did in Fallout 3, Skyrim, Oblivion, Morrowind, that those games and others haven't done except change the perspective of the game. Don't get me wrong I like the perspective I just don't think it is enough to move those games a different genre.

Also as big and as great looking as say Skyrim was it didn't seem to be much of a sim to me. That game had almost no reactivity to the things you the player did. Sure it had a few canned responses that Bethesda handled terribly(ie like the guards commenting on my magic when my guy only knew one spell and was terrible at it). It also had a few canned events like the Civil War that as far as I could tell boiled down to nothing more then a color swap. I am talking about the stuff EmCeeGramr has mentioned like say if I was to kill half a village no one would even notice. I dunno I would say even by this metric of immersive sim Skyrim still isn't very good. In fact I would say Skyrim is a better RPG then it is a sim, much better. As I have said before the worlds Bethesda makes are five miles wide and an inch deep.(aka They are huge, but have almost no depth once you look past the surface.)

That's also why New Vegas wasn't as well received--it's not a fun world to inhabit, it's a fun RPG to play. The use of the first-person, immersive perspective was wasted by Obsidian. They really fucked up horrendously, because they had no idea what they were making a sequel to (and yeah, I get the irony of what I just said, because the people on that team created Fallout, but the modern expectations--and Bethesda's, were for a more immersive game like Fallout 3). They made another classic Fallout game, but failed to make use of the camera perspective and engine they had to use. It'd be like someone being told to make a Metroid Prime game, and making a first-person Metroid game--but having players fundamentally play it like a 2D metroid (jumping up and down, moving only two directions, etc).

Well i know opinions and all, but a disagree with this strongly. Fallouts 3 world to me lacked consistency and as a result bored me. Something I think Fallout New Vegas handled much better.(granted since it was on the west coast they had lots of lore to work with) Anyway I could never shake the feeling that the developers had an interesting idea and put it in the game world without much consideration for if it fit. Little Lamplight is probably the best example of this. To be fair though I also think Fallout 2 was guilty of this as well. So its not just a Bethesda problem.
 

Lancehead

Member
It's builds wholly on the mechanics. Entirely. Mechanically, they're not very different. What is different is how they approach the world, characters and storytelling. The combat, the underlying planet-hopping, visual engine was already built for Obsidian. They but the stew together, but the ingredients were already there. I don't see how this is a point of contention, or even up for debate, honestly.

It's not, except that wasn't the context of what was said. What/how much did your said mechanics and engine affect content design from the perspective of building on what BioWare did in KotOR I? Because that's exactly what made KotOR II special (unless BigTnaples meant combat and visuals were what Obsidian did best with KotOR II building on KotOR I), like Torment. Again, please don't give me a technicality answer.

Have I replied to you more than once or something?

No, I find your pointing out that my opinions are opinions, odd.

And I laugh in your face at the fact that you say opinions like mine are the reason Beth does not make games like Morrowind anymore. I play Morrowind several times per year, every year, since 2002. It is in my mind the best RPG ever created. Hell I even used it as a term with friends to compliment something "That is very Morrowind".. And I, (as I previously stated in this very thread) have bashed bethesda a bit for dumbing down TES after Morrowind. But they also streamlined several areas, and that is for the best.

And that is where you validate my accusation that you don't understand the difference between streamlining and dumbing down. Thats fine, its a mistake many people make. That is fine.

I consider what you consider streamlining and evolution of RPGs as dumbing down. So, uh, I don't validate your accusation?

But yes, it is your opinion, and you are very toxic with your delivery of said opinion. So I will agree to disagree with you. I will go on enjoying great games from Obsidian and Bethesda while you continue to take stands against developers for being different.

I take stands against falling standards.
 
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