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[commedieu]

Because the core details including some of the racially charged elements are pretty objective thus far, with the discrepancies only determining the degree to which Zimmerman is charged. Yet, there is a contingent of people who despite national condemnation, law experts, and those far more qualified to form an assertion of doubt (if there were one about whether he should be under arrest or not), that persist.

I strongly believe, whether admitted/realized or not that race is playing a STRONG role in the persistence of those who continue to essentially attempt swimming upstream in a torrent of evidence flowing in the opposite direction.

Lets be honest here. Its two camps...sadly... in two thousand fucking twelve...:

1.The one you stated. Law Experts, and the civil world.

2. Stormfront.com's arguments. The rebuttals there, are only seen here & that site... sadly.

 

[richiek]

This guy's definitely a straight up G...

 

[Zzoram]

Zimmerman stops and begins to talk with Martin. Martin attacks Zimmerman without provocation. He gains the upper hand and begins slamming Zimmerman's head against the concrete while on top of him. Zimmerman pulls gun and shoots Martin while this is happening.

This is most likely NOT what happened but if there is no evidence to preclude this series of events and Zimmerman sticks to his "guns" as it were, and no evidence can cast a different light on the situation then Zimmerman walks. Even without stand your ground, if he had no means to retreat and his life was in danger then he pulls the trigger, martin dies, and here we are.

Except that doesn't consider the fact that Zimmerman was the initiator. He was following Martin around with his car and initiated contact while armed. Martin was half his size and unarmed, he was not a serious threat to Zimmerman.

 

[echoshifting]

That would indicate a level of institutionalized racism that is just completely frankly disturbing. Then again, the "drug war" is still happening. If Martin didn't die, somebody would have found a way to slap a Felony conviction for possession on him even if he was clean as a whistle.

This thread is depressing.

There IS a disturbing level of institutionalized racism in this country. It's astounding to me that anyone would question that, even before this happened.

 

[Lambtron]

I'd be shocked if he's found guilty of anything. He's going to walk, and heads will roll

I have this fear, too. I guess I haven't seen one way or the other, but was there any physical evidence gathered? I think without that this is going to be a very difficult case to get a conviction on.

But hey, if they arrest the guy that'd be a god damn step forward at this point.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

The news, especially local news is complete shit. I typically listen to BBC feeds or NPR. "You're doing something that could kill you right now! We'll tell you what that something is after the break."

I think I might be weird in that I assume that most people are good people trying to live life the best way they know how. Television and news reflects our absolute worst and inspires fear and paranoia where none need exist. The worst part is this fear and paranoia inspired by media screaming and shouting might actively mask very valuable fear that could save our lives in legitimate situations.

Then funny part is that I think my kids understand this more than most adults.

You're not weird. That description represents the overwhelming majority of citizens in this country. But people are easily influenced and taken by fear.

This is why even in advertising it is taught that visuals that subtly hint at sex, fear, or death are the best kind because the way the brain responds to such stimulation causes longer retention of the product being sold. That's why in so many commercials you see people you might want to have sex with, or dangers. In print ads, sex and death can be overt (a water spurt that obviously looks like a sperm heading towards the open mouth of a hot chick) or covert (an outline in the shape of knives, subtle enough for only your subconscious to notice).

Point is, fear sells. It sells ratings, products, wars, political candidacies. That's America, and part of the consequence of everything being a function of fear is a fear of one another. What someone else thinks. What someone else might do. What someone else wants to do. And the mind associates and remembers the elements that constitute that fear. Couple that with the reality that most white Americans don't see or deal with black people on a daily basis and you get that additional "fear of the unknown" factor working too.

And here we are.

This guy's definitely a straight up G...

I'd cross the street.

 

[CrazyDogg77]

There IS a disturbing level of institutionalized racism in this country. It's astounding to me that anyone would question that, even before this happened.

I'm not one to shout white privilege but.

 

[commedieu]

Except that doesn't consider the fact that Zimmerman was the initiator. He was following Martin around with his car and initiated contact while armed. Martin was half his size and unarmed, he was not a serious threat to Zimmerman.

Right.

If being the aggressor counts for nothing, Literally, that means that anyone can shoot someone in Florida, if no one is looking, and claim self defense.

 

[Jangocube]

I'd be shocked if he's found guilty of anything. He's going to walk, and heads will roll

Absolutely no way he walks away innocent.

 

[Az]

I should start robbing people in a tux. And I am white.

Infinite profit.

 

[I H8 Memes]

Right.

If being the aggressor counts for nothing, Literally, that means that anyone can shoot someone in Florida, if no one is looking, and claim self defense.

http://i.minus.com/ictpaFcL6RCg2.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]

Well yeah, that is pretty much the law in Florida now.

 

[KodMoS]

Because the core details including some of the racially charged elements are pretty objective thus far, with the discrepancies only determining the degree to which Zimmerman is charged. Yet, there is a contingent of people who despite national condemnation, law experts, and those far more qualified to form an assertion of doubt (if there were one about whether he should be under arrest or not), that persist.

I strongly believe, whether admitted/realized or not that race is playing a STRONG role in the persistence of those who continue to essentially attempt swimming upstream in a torrent of evidence flowing in the opposite direction.

Yesterday, people jumped to conclusions and claimed that I was supporting George Zimmerman, which was obviously further form the truth. All I did was post a video of an eye-witnesses testimony, where he states that he saw Trayvon Martin on top of George Zimmerman, and was the one crying for help. Does that mean I was supporting George Zimmerman? No.

 

[Derwind]

He confirmed that Martin was fleeing, he then pursue's the fleeing victim...

The 911 tapes confirm this...

From this part of the case I can't see how he can get around that...

Putting aside the actually death of Trayvon, which I doubt he'll walk away from clean, chasing a fleeing individual should be a charge onto itself....

Yesterday, people jumped to conclusions and claimed that I was supporting George Zimmerman, which was obviously further form the truth. All I did was post a video of an eye-witnesses testimony, where he states that he saw Trayvon Martin on top of George Zimmerman, and was the one crying for help. Does that mean I was supporting George Zimmerman? No.

You realize though a witness testimony corroborates with the idea that Martin was the one screaming for help... :/

 

[DonasaurusRex]

he could walk on some bullshit, but the outrage and result...wow riot would not surprise me. A regular guy can walk up to me in the street and harass me then shoot me and walk? Thats scary. We all know that maybe this guy can lawfully get off, but its not right and we as people know that, so what good is the law if we do the wrong thing to follow it?

 

[commedieu]

I should start robbing people in a tux. And I am white.

Infinite profit.

you don't even need the tux though :\

yourealreadyinnocent.png

 

[Zzoram]

Martin had no reason to attack Zimmerman from what we know. He just wanted some Skittles and bought them and was going home to eat them.

 

[DY_nasty]

I should start robbing people in a tux. And I am white.

Infinite profit.

Lol

I'm so jelly

 

[Koomaster]

This is currently the direction I'm leaning too =/

Hopefully there will at least be a trial but that's anything but a sure thing

If this guy isn't charged or convicted of anything; I think at the very least a long look needs to be viewed at the laws that are allowing him to get away with murder. Don't let someone else in the future abuse the law in this fashion. Let's at least learn from this if nothing else.

 

[Jangocube]

I should start robbing people in a tux. And I am white.

Infinite profit.

I think anybody robbing someone in a Tux would get away with it more then a hoodie.

I think the hoodie joke is pretty lame. Of course robbers would wear hoodies, it helps conceal them. Would I be more "afraid" of someone if they were walking towards me in a tux or hoodie? I get that it's a joke, but the whole hoodie movement is lame. It doesn't say anything.

Anyways, hope they catch the guy. Racists will be racists. No need for constant coverage and media hoopla though.

 

[Ghost_Protocol]

Absolutely no way he walks away innocent.

He CANNOT walk free. If that hapenned, we would see riots the likes of which we haven't seen decades. Total chaos would rain down on that city and across the country. Will not happen.

 

[Enron]

All this hoodie mess is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Tideas]

He confirmed that Martin was fleeing, he then pursue's the fleeing victim...

The 911 tapes confirm this...

From this part of the case I can't see how he can get around that...

Putting aside the actually death of Trayvon, which I doubt he'll walk away from clean, chasing a fleeing individual should be a charge onto itself....



You realize though a witness testimony corroborates with the idea that Martin was the one screaming for help... :/

what law does following someone break?

 

[bob_arctor]

I'd be shocked if he's found guilty of anything. He's going to walk, and heads will roll

Sad as hell but that's how I'm approaching it.

 

[CrazyDogg77]

I think anybody robbing someone in a Tux would get away with it more then a hoodie.

I think the hoodie joke is pretty lame. Of course robbers would wear hoodies, it helps conceal them. Would I be more "afraid" of someone if they were walking towards me in a tux or hoodie? I get that it's a joke, but the whole hoodie movement is lame. It doesn't say anything.

Anyways, hope they catch the guy. Racists will be racists. No need for constant coverage and media hoopla though.

Media hoopla is exactly what's needed.

 

[Enron]

Thats how I feel

Especially after Troy Davis

This case is NOTHING like the Troy Davis case.

 

[DY_nasty]

He CANNOT walk free. If that hapenned, we would see riots the likes of which we haven't seen decades. Total chaos would rain down on that city and across the country. Will not happen.

It happens all the time.

 

[FStop7]

I'm really bothered that there has been so much argument over this situation.

I mean I'm disappointed. Genuinely disappointed. Disappointed in a lot of people. I guess I feel that way because this should be an open an shut matter, and yet it's being treated as some kind of exercise in theory by those whose motives make no sense unless they are simply closeted racists. That's what disappoints me.

Zimmerman carried a gun while out on "patrol." That alone sends up about a dozen red flags. I believe in gun ownership and I believe in concealed carry. But absolutely not in a situation like this. What this clearly says to me is that Zimmerman regularly went out and sought confrontation. The complaints of aggressive behavior by his neighbors and the evidence in this situation drive the fact home. He even disregarded the 911 operator's directions not to pursue. The guy was literally out looking for fights. He wanted to fulfill a desire.

From the very beginning Zimmerman was on the offensive. This is why he should not have been carrying. His mindset was 180 degrees wrong.

Zimmerman aggressively pursued another man, cornered him, confronted him, and then when the man defended himself Zimmerman got what he wanted: an opportunity to use the gun he was carrying, and he killed Trayvon Martin in cold blood. That's murder. End of story. Everything else is window dressing and hand waving.

The hand wavers keep talking about stand your ground, stand your ground. Trayvon Martin had just as much a right to stand his ground. He was the one being harassed, pursued, and confronted by a stranger.

For the hand wavers who keep quoting the text of the law: This is not how our system works. If all we did was recite code, verbatim, there would be no need for a judicial system. The law is interpreted and applied differently in different situations. Any prosecutor who doesn't put this case in front of a grand jury is a coward or more likely has an agenda.

 

[Aaronology]

what law does following someone break?

FLORIDA

Section 784.048. STALKING; DEFINITIONS; PENALTIES. 1997.

(1) As used in this section, the term:

(a) "Harass" means to engage in a course of conduct directed at a specific person that causes substantial emotional distress in such person and serves no legitimate purpose.

(b) "Course of conduct" means a pattern a conduct composed of series of acts over a period of time, however short, evidencing a continuity of purpose. Constitutionally protected activity is not included within the meaning of "course of conduct." Such constitutionally protected activity includes picketing or other organized protests.

(c) "Credible threat" means a threat made with the intent to cause the person who is the target of the threat to reasonably fear for his or her safety. The threat must be against the life of, or a threat to cause bodily injury to, a person.

(2) Any person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows or harasses another person commits the offense of stalking, a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

(3) Any person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows or harasses another person, and makes a credible threat with the intent to place that person in reasonable fear of death or bodily injury, commits the offense of aggravated stalking, a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(4) Any person who, after an injunction for protection against repeat violence pursuant to s. 784.046, or an injunction for protection against domestic violence pursuant to s. 741.30, or after any other court-imposed prohibition of conduct toward the subject person that person's property, knowingly, willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows or harasses another person commits the offense of aggravated stalking, a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(5) Any person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows or harasses a minor under 16 years of age commits the offense of aggravated stalking, a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, so. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(6) Any law enforcement officer may arrest, without a warrant, any person he or she has probable cause to believe has violated the provisions of this section.

State Stalking Laws

 

[Derwind]

what law does following someone break?

1. There is a difference between following someone and chasing someone fleeing from you.

2. Stalking is a crime.

3. In this case, ignoring dispatch and chasing the fleeing individual resulted in the minors death, which all came about through baseless suspicions..

The context surrounding the following/chasing of a person helps with deciding what is and is not a crime.

In this case the context surrounding this case does not help Zimmerman.

State Stalking Laws

.

 

[Slayven]

I am going to be cynical for a moment, Zimmerman is going to jail. This is an election year and a lot of people with a lot of stroke are having sleepless nights over this.

So there might be justice but it might not be completely for the right reasons.

 

[AndyD]

what law does following someone break?

Simple following doesn't break a law. But it can be seen as initiating conflict through conflict seeking behavior. And if he initiated the conflict, then it wasn't self defense. And if he initiated conflict it may be harassment as mentioned above.

 

[KodMoS]

You realize though a witness testimony corroborates with the idea that Martin was the one screaming for help... :/

Other Witnesses in the area cannot confirm it was Trayvon, and that's the point. As of right now, only one eye-Witness confirmed it was Zimmerman. Other Witnesses are only assuming it was trayvon because it sounded like a young man's voice.

 

[richiek]

He CANNOT walk free. If that hapenned, we would see riots the likes of which we haven't seen decades. Total chaos would rain down on that city and across the country. Will not happen.

This is Florida we're talking about here.

 

[Deified Data]

He CANNOT walk free. If that hapenned, we would see riots the likes of which we haven't seen decades. Total chaos would rain down on that city and across the country. Will not happen.

I don't think he will. The pressure's on.

I don't think Zimmerman will get murder, but possibly voluntary manslaughter.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

He CANNOT walk free. If that hapenned, we would see riots the likes of which we haven't seen decades. Total chaos would rain down on that city and across the country. Will not happen.

"oh hai"

 

[AiTM]

It happens all the time.

No one rioted when he walked free.

 

[Jangocube]

No one rioted when he walked free.

Well, er, I won't go there. But everyone knows, right? Seems obvious I guess.

Oh well, GL to the prosecution in this case. Damned if they, damned if they don't.

 

[AndyD]

Other Witnesses in the area cannot confirm it was Trayvon, and that's the point. As of right now, only one eye-Witness confirmed it was Zimmerman. Other Witnesses are only assuming it was trayvon because it sounded like a young man's voice.

This is further complicated by the police who corrected witnesses saying they heard a young man cry for help (Trayvon). Police corrected them telling them it was Zimmerman crying out not Trayvon.

 

[Yoritomo]

I'm really bothered that there has been so much argument over this situation.

I mean I'm disappointed. Genuinely disappointed. Disappointed in a lot of people. I guess I feel that way because this should be an open an shut matter, and yet it's being treated as some kind of exercise in theory by those whose motives make no sense unless they are simply closeted racists. That's what disappoints me.

Zimmerman carried a gun while out on "patrol." That alone sends up about a dozen red flags. I believe in gun ownership and I believe in concealed carry. But absolutely not in a situation like this. What this clearly says to me is that Zimmerman regularly went out and sought confrontation. The complaints of aggressive behavior by his neighbors and the evidence in this situation drive the fact home. He even disregarded the 911 operator's directions not to pursue. The guy was literally out looking for fights. He wanted to fulfill a desire.

From the very beginning Zimmerman was on the offensive. This is why he should not have been carrying. His mindset was 180 degrees wrong.

Zimmerman aggressively pursued another man, cornered him, confronted him, and then when the man defended himself Zimmerman got what he wanted: an opportunity to use the gun he was carrying, and he killed Trayvon Martin in cold blood. That's murder. End of story. Everything else is window dressing and hand waving.

The hand wavers keep talking about stand your ground, stand your ground. Trayvon Martin had just as much a right to stand his ground. He was the one being harassed, pursued, and confronted by a stranger.

Yup, I agree. This is also the exact opposite of the mentality of people I know who carry. They usually avoid confrontations at all costs.

 

[CrazyDogg77]

Well, er, I won't go there. But everyone knows, right?

Yeah everyone knows OJ did it.

 

[echoshifting]

If this guy isn't charged or convicted of anything; I think at the very least a long look needs to be viewed at the laws that are allowing him to get away with murder. Don't let someone else in the future abuse the law in this fashion. Let's at least learn from this if nothing else.

This much I think is a sure thing. This is the one good result we can more or less count on.

 

[soundahfekz]

Yesterday, people jumped to conclusions and claimed that I was supporting George Zimmerman, which was obviously further form the truth. All I did was post a video of an eye-witnesses testimony, where he states that he saw Trayvon Martin on top of George Zimmerman, and was the one crying for help. Does that mean I was supporting George Zimmerman? No.

You posted one uncorroborated witness testimony (and being fair they all are at this point) compared to all the objective evidence being reported to the contrary. While I acknowledge that all witness testimony will have to be vetted with due process, you have multiple witnesses painting a similar picture of Zimmerman being the aggressor along with the mountain of facts established, and you chose to take on the cause of one witness, who may or may not have been tampered with or 'corrected'. Why?

There's something very troubling about that. There's something troubling about being so afraid to call an injustice, injustice in fear of there not being absolute truths we will never have in this case. It leads me to believe you have a cause. I certainly do. My cause is seeing a man who profiled and killed a child minding business his arrested and tried, as it clearly wasn't self defense under any definition of the law. Being a black man I've been unreasonably profiled myself countless times and this case is a logical extension of the experience I and others have dealt with to which many "devil's advocates" in this thread could never relate. What's yours?

 

[commedieu]

http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/03/national-gopers-rally-around-stand-your-ground-law-after-trayvon-martin-shooting.php

Rep. Allen West (R-FL) — who called the Martin case “an outrage” and said the Sanford police chief should be “relieved of his duties” (he stepped down temporarily Thursday) — told TPM Friday that any discussion of the Castle Doctrine is unnecessary. The Florida law “does not apply whatsoever” to the Martin case, West said, because Zimmerman was not being pursued by Martin. Anti-gun lobbyists shouldn’t use the legislation to score political points, West added.

..

That line of reasoning might be tied to a key GOP constituency. Stand Your Ground and other Castle Doctrine legislation tweaks self-defense laws to allow people who feel personally threatened (or find an intruder in their home) to kill the person threatening them in self defense. The legal doctrine is incredibly important to the NRA, which in turn is incredibly important to Republicans on the national stage.

Sen. Marco Rubio (R-FL) — on the shortlist of GOP vice presidential candidates and one of the lawmakers who brought Stand Your Ground to Florida in the first place — said earlier this week that a conversation about the law is premature.

- Newt Gingrich .. Clearly you should have a right to defend yourself in your own home, and clearly somebody should not be translating standing your own ground into pushing somebody else, and that’s what’s going to come down as the question here. The young man apparently was not following the person who’s being investigated, apparently the shooter was following the young man. Now that’s not a ‘Stand Your Own Ground.’ That’s a chase the other person into their ground. “I think you’re going to find that the law, as interpreted normally, doesn’t apply to this case,”

Fun read to see politics & the elections reactions... just a few snips.

ah crap, didn't check to see if posted. Sorry if old.

 

[Kusagari]

Ughh if he goes free.

Last thing Florida needs right now is race riots.

 

[bob_arctor]

You posted one uncorroborated witness testimony (and being fair they all are at this point) compared to all the objective evidence being reported to the contrary. While I acknowledge that all witness testimony will have to be vetted with due process, you have multiple witnesses painting a similar picture of Zimmerman being the aggressor along with the mountain of facts established, and you chose to take on the cause of one witness, who may or may not have been tampered with or 'corrected'. Why?

There's something very troubling about that. There's something troubling about being so afraid to call an injustice, injustice in fear of there not being absolute truths we will never have in this case. It leads me to believe you have a cause. I certainly do. My cause is seeing a man who profiled and killed a child minding his arrested and tried, as it clearly wasn't self defense. Being a black man I've been unreasonably profiled myself countless times and this case is a logical extension of the experience I and others have dealt with to which many "devil's advocates" in this thread could never relate. What's yours?

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Well, er, I won't go there. But everyone knows, right?

Everyone? Everyone.

 

[Choke on the Magic]

Absolutely no way he walks away innocent.

Seconded. This kid did nothing. At bare minimum he's going to get involuntary manslaughter. Gun owners are responsible for what they do with their firearms. From what I read about all this the kid did nothing that would be reason enough to even pull a gun.

 

[Yoritomo]

Ughh if he goes free.

Last thing Florida needs right now is race riots.

Isn't it racist to assume there would be race riots? How about some peaceful calls to action and some marches, with a large grassroots concerted effort to reform some of the racist practices of the judicial system.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Fun read to see politics & the elections reactions... just a few snips.

ah crap, didn't check to see if posted. Sorry if old.

even Newt gets it.

 

[soundahfekz]

No one rioted when he walked free.

His trial wasn't predicated on racial profiling or stereotyping. If you really want to get into it, there was a racist cop handling evidence on top of that.

Thanks for showing us what your true perspective is though.