From The Dust
Banned
You'd thin Street Fighter would be more popular than it is in Japan. Wonder why it isn'tfarnham said:
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Famitsu: 3DS sells 371,326 in 2 days. Layton top selling game
- Thread starter Spiegel
- Start date
Mockingbird
Member
Graphics Horse said:
No one is saying it's an original puzzle invented by Level 5. The game even mentions the history of some of these sliding puzzles. I only showed that specific puzzle -- the hardest one in the game -- because he said something along the lines of "I did this when I was a kid." I'd think that most kids would've given up on that puzzle to go do anything else.
On a side note, one of my second grade students (age 7 or 8) won a 3DS via postcard drawing and he said he wanted Ridge Racer or Layton when he goes to pick up a game for his 3DS. I was surprised he said Layton because I don't think he'd be able to do most of the puzzles or even read some of the kanji in the game (assuming it has kanji -- never played it in Japanese myself). I mentioned to him that 3DS games can play DS games too, and then he was like "What? Even Pokemon?!?" So now he plans to buy Pokemon Black/White instead of a 3DS game.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Momo said:Hello Computer Science 102
heh, it's been 8 or 9 years since I did those courses and they're evidently still haunting me.
From The Dust
Banned
Wow. I always thought fighting games did much better in japanfarnham said:
Mr. Pointy
Member
Not a bad number for two days (I assume). Surprised at the Layton numbers. I'm guessing Nintendogs + Cats will have legs, though the original series wasn't the biggest Nintendo franchise in Japan, despite it being the catalyst going asplode worldwide.
RurouniZel
Asks questions so Ezalc doesn't have to
I'm not surprised there isn't a huge attach rate yet, considering the system itself is more expensive than any portable Nintendo's released in the past. I'll wait a couple of months before I make any judgments based on this information.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
RurouniZel said:
It also came with the nifty AR games suite so people would be less concerned about not getting a game at launch.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Yeah, I think being packed with so much software may have to do something with the attach rates....although until we don't get the total software we won't know for sure....
Block sliding puzzles are essentially the same as the require the solver to use exactly the same skills - ability to predict the situation several steps ahead, imagine what the situation will look like if you push this or that block, if it's going to put you in a better position etc. What is the "impact of local minima/maxima" even supposed to mean in this case?Stumpokapow said:
What are the rules of the second puzzle? Or at least state the objective.Stumpokapow said:
With enough arbitrary abstraction, you can equate everything. This doesn't make you any less wrong.szaromir said:
I see different types of tin cans, so I guess you have to stack them according to their type with some kind of constraint.szaromir said:
With enough abstraction you could equate it to the Tower of Hanoi, but the two puzzles are evidently very different.
pretty decent numbers for Layton, hope the English translation is fast! can't wait such quality games even my sister and mum enjoy. I think 40k would be brilliant opening for SSFIV in Japan, but either way I think this title will do well as its probably the most meaty title in the launch period in America and Europe.
Gosh I really can't decide to keep my pre order or not, theres a lot more packed in than I had originally thought, and I do love shiny new things, but really need the game to justify it
Gosh I really can't decide to keep my pre order or not, theres a lot more packed in than I had originally thought, and I do love shiny new things, but really need the game to justify it
Kilgore Trout
Member
Well, I wouldn't be surprised if it was more successful in arcades which are much more common in Japan. I don't have any info to back this up though.From The Dust said:
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
So far it has sold at the very least on par with the Wii and DS. The Wii nearly exactly the same in two days, and the DS sold ~440,000 after a week.
We'll see where this is sitting by the end of the week.
We'll see where this is sitting by the end of the week.
The problem with the launch games is, they weren't the only things to play. If there was nothing, more would have sold because people HAD to get something.
Without any standout or 'omg epic' titles, that result for Layton is the best they could have hoped for.
Nintendogs will still sell 3+ million.
Without any standout or 'omg epic' titles, that result for Layton is the best they could have hoped for.
Nintendogs will still sell 3+ million.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
szaromir said:
The shared characteristics you just mentioned are common to everything. Is Chess the same as a sliding block puzzle? I mean, it doesn't feature blocking, move constraint is different for different pieces, and it's two player, but it requires you to "predict the situation several steps ahead" and "imagine what the situation will look like if you [move this or that piece]" and know whether "it's going to put you in a better position".
In context, it means a situation where you need to "go backward to go forward". Sliding tile puzzles have virtually no cases of this until the last few tiles, whereas it's an instrumental part of the Layton puzzle linked.
In other words, both puzzles feature moving (subsets of) LIFO stacks horizontally into columns, although they have totally different constraints on moving, objectives, and themes.
Are they the same puzzle?
I think it's fair to distinguish between 'same puzzle' and 'same *genre* of puzzle'. You can have original puzzles within a familiar genre; I can't see the video shown, but I suspect it's the final puzzle in the game, the set of abstract polyominoes with a 'jewel' that has to be central? As far as I'm aware, that's a completely original puzzle, even though it's inescapable that it shares a lot of its heritage with various degrees of sliding block puzzle.
One interesting one I would point out is one that was discussed in a thread a little while ago - one which looked like the basic 15 puzzle.
One interesting one I would point out is one that was discussed in a thread a little while ago - one which looked like the basic 15 puzzle.
However, there was a subtle extra puzzle involved, in that it was only actually solvable if you swapped two identical-looking tiles. I'd say that's actually a lateral thinking puzzle *disguised* as a basic 15 puzzle, rather than a 15 puzzle as such.
Regardless of whether each Layton iteration has provided enough puzzle variety from one episode to the next doesn't seem relevant when comparing to CoD.
In the annual CoD iterations, you shoot people and things of various shapes and sizes repetitively, online and offline, on different shaped 'tunnels'. Essentially the equivalent to two or three puzzles of the same type.
In Layton games there are umpteen puzzle types. Each individual title has more variety than the CoD series in its entirity. I fail to see how the comparison is relevant. The important thing to bear in mind here is that, unlike CoD with its online "community" that moves on to the next title immediately, there isn't any real need to pick up the latest Layton game on anything other than a whim. For people who love the game, there are new iterations, if you're just dabbling, they'll be there waiting for when you're in the mood.
In the annual CoD iterations, you shoot people and things of various shapes and sizes repetitively, online and offline, on different shaped 'tunnels'. Essentially the equivalent to two or three puzzles of the same type.
In Layton games there are umpteen puzzle types. Each individual title has more variety than the CoD series in its entirity. I fail to see how the comparison is relevant. The important thing to bear in mind here is that, unlike CoD with its online "community" that moves on to the next title immediately, there isn't any real need to pick up the latest Layton game on anything other than a whim. For people who love the game, there are new iterations, if you're just dabbling, they'll be there waiting for when you're in the mood.
Comparing multiplayer game to a static puzzle is a bit out of place. I consider two puzzles different not only when they are of different levels of complexity, but also have a different "catch", ie. require the solver to use different tricks or think differently in order to achieve the objective. The sliding puzzles are universally the same in that regard.Stumpokapow said:
They have pretty much the same solution algorithm.
In other words, both puzzles feature moving (subsets of) LIFO stacks horizontally into columns, although they have totally different constraints on moving, objectives, and themes.
Are they the same puzzle?
There isn't enough diversity in the sliding puzzles to consider them a genre, just different complexity. For me a genre would be geometry puzzles - which require you to know Euclidan axioms to show something (sadly, those in Layton are insultingly simple) or language puzzles, that require you to think about meaning of different words etc.
sixteen-bit
Member
Excellent tie ratio.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
szaromir said:
They do require different tricks. The 15-puzzle is best thought of in terms of rotation; given three filled blocks and one empty block, you can rotate clockwise or counterclockwise. This shares a skill with more complex games like Bejeweled and Bejeweled Twist. Geometry doesn't play into it at all.
On the other hand, the gem puzzle in Layton requires skills at actually trying to geometrically orient the blocks. For example, a given space might seem ripe for an L shaped block, but it is actually designed for the top right of a + shaped block--at least until you unjam a | shaped block, then you need to re-clog the pathways.
No, they don't. Towers of Hanoi is straight recursion. To solve n discs, solve n-1 discs, move disc n to the unused pole, and then solve n-1 discs on top of it. This problem is not solved that way at all.
I'm not trying to bamboozle you with CS stuff here, but except insofar that all puzzles are the same, these puzzles aren't the same.
It's nice to know language puzzles don't count *scratches head*
Also in this paragraph you seem to be arguing that complexity is an important part of puzzle construction even though earlier in this exact same post you said complexity wasn't what you wanted, you wanted originality. And then you asked for puzzles that were by definition unoriginal because they'd simply be math problems you'd already done in grade school.
But while you're asking about Euclidean axioms, note that Layton has puzzles asking players to find Hamiltonian paths and-or Eulerian paths through given planar graphs. If I remember correctly, there's even at least one puzzle for which a Eulerian path is impossible and you need to point out which vertice makes it so. Layton also features map-colouring problems, which are also a staple of college graph theory.
dragonfart28
Banned
From The Dust said:
It's because you don't choose character actions from a menu.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
On geometry:
(requires knowledge of bisection)
(ditto)
Of course you can fumble around in the dark and get the solutions, but these problems are Euclidean geometry, as you requested.
A little more complex, you say?
(this is a partitioning problem)
(requires knowledge of bisection)
(ditto)
Of course you can fumble around in the dark and get the solutions, but these problems are Euclidean geometry, as you requested.
A little more complex, you say?
(this is a partitioning problem)
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Chris1964 said:
It's also
From The Dust
Banned
dragonfart28 said:
you mean the touchscreen buttons? you can still input moves manually
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Spiegel said:
I don't know why I misread that, let me adjust.