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[Stumpokapow]

Do you discount the idea though that Layton 5, while not having legs on par with the first game, might show better legs than the others thanks to being a launch game?

I think there are a variety of competing factors at work here:
- As a launch game, it'll probably get bonus sales (due to the lack of competing software) and bonus legs (due to would-be owners not having the hardware yet and buying the game when they get the hardware)
- As a franchise, I think Layton is not likely to grow and franchises that don't grow decline due to stagnation. I think Layton is, in other words, a franchise in decline.

So those opposing factors will mitigate one another, but it's hard to say what the final result will be. Also, there's a third factor:

- When is Layton 6 coming out, and what kind of game will it be content-wise?

Of course if Layton 5 and Layton 6 end up selling 1.5 million and 2.0 million respectively, I've obviously got this wrong and I'll readily admit it. But the above is how I see things going as of right now.

 

[itsgreen]

Are numbers relevant since it is a sold out, right?

 

[szaromir]

They do require different tricks. The 15-puzzle is best thought of in terms of rotation; given three filled blocks and one empty block, you can rotate clockwise or counterclockwise. This shares a skill with more complex games like Bejeweled and Bejeweled Twist. Geometry doesn't play into it at all.

On the other hand, the gem puzzle in Layton requires skills at actually trying to geometrically orient the blocks. For example, a given space might seem ripe for an L shaped block, but it is actually designed for the top right of a + shaped block--at least until you unjam a | shaped block, then you need to re-clog the pathways.

The principle is the same and refers to same the skills. The 15 puzzle does require you to think geometrically, even if you only slide identically shaped blocks.

No, they don't. Towers of Hanoi is straight recursion. To solve n discs, solve n-1 discs, move disc n to the unused pole, and then solve n-1 discs on top of it. This problem is not solved that way at all.

I'm not trying to bamboozle you with CS stuff here, but except insofar that all puzzles are the same, these puzzles aren't the same.

If you increased the number of cans in the other puzzle, it'd be again a recursion problem (unless the position of cans is truely random, but it looks like it's actually "each type of cans is in a different position in every column").

It's nice to know language puzzles don't count *scratches head*

Also in this paragraph you seem to be arguing that complexity is an important part of puzzle construction even though earlier in this exact same post you said complexity wasn't what you wanted, you wanted originality. And then you asked for puzzles that were by definition unoriginal because they'd simply be math problems you'd already done in grade school.

But while you're asking about Euclid"an" axioms, note that Layton has puzzles asking players to find Hamiltonian paths and-or Eulerian paths through given planar graphs. If I remember correctly, there's even at least one puzzle for which a Eulerian path is impossible and you need to point out which vertice makes it so.

Language puzzles definitely count, where did I state otherwise?

I used the wrong word, I should have said "easy", not simple. There are of course many simple puzzles that are very tough to crack. I could give some examples if you want to.
In grade school you have such a small selection of math problems in grade school that you could easily find different ones that you were unlikely to encounter and would relyon your intuition and not math knowledge, at the same time being more interesting than the generic crap Layton throws at you.

 

[herod]

I think Layton in particular would have been a catalyst for the kind of rampant casual piracy that the DS suffers from; I expect to see a boost on 3DS while it stays free from piracy.

 

[Kintaro]

You'd thin Street Fighter would be more popular than it is in Japan. Wonder why it isn't

Arcades still exist in Japan. Of course, Tekken and Gundam vs. Gundam rule the arcades as of late. Basically, SF is a shadow of its former self.

 

[From The Dust]

Arcades still exist in Japan. Of course, Tekken and Gundam vs. Gundam rule the arcades as of late. Basically, SF is a shadow of its former self.

I know about the arcades, but I though since those are popular, it would translate to console version sales. hearing how SF isn't that big anymore is still kinda surprising to me

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Not bad. I expected Layton third actually; behind Nintendogs and Street Fighter

Don't worry overmuch about which specific games each line represents; I think the point comes across. This covers PS2 on.

fighting games in general dont sell much. the only million seller in that genre this gen and last gen is smash bros (unless Tekken Tag Tournament sold 1 million)

Not quite half that.

 

[Meier]

not 400 k like was reported... hmmmf!

great numbers though

It sold out on day 1, if you don't have any units for day 2 it's kind of irrelevant. I'm sure this is the max Famitsu could have tracked basically.

 

[szaromir]

On geometry:
(requires knowledge of bisection)

Of course you can fumble around in the dark and get the solutions, but these problems are Euclidean geometry, as you requested.

A little more complex, you say?
(this is a partitioning problem)

All of the extremely straightforward, both in concept and solution. Not impressed.

 

[BishopLamont]

Come on, there was only 370k 3DS, how much more do people expect Layton to sell? Each game isn't some mega multi million sellers.

 

[onken]

I know about the arcades, but I though since those are popular, it would translate to console version sales. hearing how SF isn't that big anymore is still kinda surprising to me

Yeah it is a shame, though I have to say it has kind of picked up (in my area, at least) since the SSF4 cabs started spreading. Nowhere near Tekken/GvG/BB but still, definitely more presence/players now.

 

[From The Dust]

Yeah it is a shame, though I have to say it has kind of picked up (in my area, at least) since the SSF4 cabs started spreading. Nowhere near Tekken/GvG/BB but still, definitely more presence/players now.

wait, Blazblue is more popular that SSF4? holy shit

 

[onken]

wait, Blazblue is more popular that SSF4? holy shit

In my favorite arcade (it's pretty big):
10x Tekken 6
6x BBCS2 cabs
2x BBCS1
4x GvG
4x SSF4
2x VF5 FS (stuffed in the dingy corner)

 

[From The Dust]

In my favorite arcade (it's pretty big):
10x Tekken 6
6x BBCS2 cabs
2x BBCS1
4x GvG
4x SSF4
2x VF5 FS (stuffed in the dingy corner)

well shit. its one shocking revelation after another. your are rocking my worldview man

 

[borghe]

Yeah like how the Wii was perfect for it too

FU nintendo FU

agreed. Luigi's Mansion is one of the most underrated Nintendo games of all time.

"WTF?? This is the 'Mario' launch game? hahahaha GTFO!!!"
"Umm.. wait a minute? It's actually pretty good? And has a neat gameplay concept behind it?"
"Wow, you guys have to check out Luigi's Mansion. Was TOTALLY wrong about it."
Wiimote announced
"Man I hope they release a new Luigi's Mansion at some point"
10 years later....
"Really Nintendo, WTF is a new Luigi's Mansion already????"

 

[Thoraxes]

It's not a relief, because even in decline it's more profitable than most other Japanese franchises out there. It'll take another 2-3 installments before it starts to lose significance.



Yes, every Layton game has sold less than the previous one. Layton 1 had a SHIT TON of legs, and crossed a million eventually. Layton 2 is a little bit behind on that, Layton 3 got to 800k+, and Layton 4 hasn't been able to get to 700k.

You could go with the trends of the game, but do remember that there's only a little less than 400k systems in people's hands. Maybe it'll go up with more systems sold.

At least, till more games come out.

 

[Busaiku]

well shit. its one shocking revelation after another. your are rocking my worldview man

Here are the income charts from 2010.
Tekken was the biggest (by far) and Street Fighter IV (vanilla) was behind BlazBlue Continuum Shift (1).

 

[Smiles and Cries]

They don't count every store on those sales charts so to get so close to the 400k number is wow

 

[djtiesto]

I can't believe this turd series is so popular.

Why, because it's not some shitty bug-filled American-made PC turd?

 

[Hex]

I can't believe this turd series is so popular.

I am going to take this picarat and shove it so far up your...

 

[Vaporak]

Is this some sort of "all puzzles are the same puzzle" argument?

Those two puzzles have virtually nothing in common except insofar as they both involve lateral translation of space-constrained objects.

The type and shape of the objects, the shape of the board, the degree of space constraint, the final objective, the scope of the objective--in the sliding tile puzzle to achieve a full board configuration in the Layton puzzle to move one tile to an end tile location, the techniques used to address the board, the impact of local minima/maxima... all of these characteristics are different.

Unless you're trying to make some abstract point about computational complexity, you're not right about this.

To be fair to him, if you go up one meta level they're both examples of the same sort of Group Action problem from Abstract Algebra.

 

[From The Dust]

Here are the income charts from 2010.
Tekken was the biggest (by far) and Street Fighter IV (vanilla) was behind BlazBlue Continuum Shift (1).

I...wa....can't....*suicide*

 

[FINALFANTASYDOG]

They don't count every store on those sales charts so to get so close to the 400k number is wow

this is stats/ sales-age 101, but they use sampling to estimate all the stores, this is an estimated number for all stores based on select stores. They are not literally contacting close to every store in Japan to get this results.

The only way it could really be messed up is if a game has a much higher percentage of online sales, as online sales are not factored into the equation.

 

[Spiegel]

EDIT Nevermind.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

^ how accurate is this math?

 

[szaromir]

To be fair to him, if you go up one meta level they're both examples of the same sort of Group Action problem from Abstract Algebra.

Not being an expert on group theory (but being familiar with it, mostly from Greiner's "Quantum Mechanics - Symmetries"), I struggle tofind a way that led you to that conclusion.

 

[Vaporak]

Not being an expert on group theory (but being familiar with it, mostly from Greiner's "Quantum Mechanics - Symmetries"), I struggle tofind a way that led you to that conclusion.

The sliding block puzzles can all be thought of as group permutations of a set, where the different restrictions determine the allowable permutations. The classic block puzzle, and some impossible variations, were some examples used in the Abstract class I took last quarter. Just something that stuck with me and felt like chiming in when I saw the discussion.

 

[The Technomancer]

All of the extremely straightforward, both in concept and solution. Not impressed.

Honest question: give us examples of the kind of puzzles you would enjoy? If its a language based puzzle, its going to be based on lateral thinking and double meaning. If its a spatial or logical puzzle, its going to be based on mathematics. What kind of puzzles escape those constraints?

 

[kayos90]

Really glad that Layton is selling really well. I love the atmosphere in that game.

 

[FoneBone]

Why was Nintendogs so low? What'd the original do in its first week?

 

[szaromir]

The sliding block puzzles can all be thought of as group permutations of a set, where the different restrictions determine the allowable permutations. The classic block puzzle, and some impossible variations, were some examples used in the Abstract class I took last quarter. Just something that stuck with me and felt like chiming in when I saw the discussion.

That makes sense, thanks.

Honest question: give us examples of the kind of puzzles you would enjoy? Because pretty much every spatial puzzle redices to mathematics if you go deep enough.

Truth be told, I kind of enjoy more open ended puzzles, which aren't suited to video game format exactly. I remember the immense enjoyment of solving this puzzle by Hugo Steinhaus when I was 9-10 years old. I also had a lot of fun witk Ken Russell's and Philip Carter's Number Puzzles and Picture puzzles, which are bit less openended but are mostly quite tough. Playing Professor Layton feels more like grinding than problem solving IMO, especially since it doesn't present new puzzles but rehashes the classic ones.

 

[Fernando Rocker]

Do we know what kind of game Layton and Wright is going to be?

 

[Deku]

Do we know what kind of game Layton and Wright is going to be?

I suspect it will be more of an adventure game where instead of a lot of back tracking to find something hidden away in the corner of a room, logic puzzles are deployed to solve cases.

Of the announced titles, that is the game I'm most interested in right now.

 

[disappeared]

I would say that they are both great series.

Also, since I can't find the Layton middle finger gif, an image to celebrate the occasion.

Is that shotgun actually included with that figure? I'd buy that.

 

[szaromir]

Do we know what kind of game Layton and Wright is going to be?

Solving 100 years old puzzles toprove the prosecution wrong.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Do we know what kind of game Layton and Wright is going to be?

Adventure game with trial-like sections, supposedly.

 

[Rolf NB]

Solving 100 years old puzzles toprove the prosecution wrong.

"He could never have formed HELP ME with only 11 match sticks."

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Why was Nintendogs so low? What'd the original do in its first week?

It was a slow burner. First week of 135,674 by Famitsu. #2 that week, actually, behind Romancing SaGa PS2.

Sequels are usually more frontloaded, but since it's a launch title that gives it a new reason to be a slow burner as people pick up the system.

 

[Father_Brain]

Nintendogs will be the title that people pick up along with a 3DS. It likely won't reach the heights of the first game (there's a general trend of sequels to casual games not selling as well as their predecessors), but it'll do fine.

 

[Lord_Byron28]

I think there are a variety of competing factors at work here:
- As a launch game, it'll probably get bonus sales (due to the lack of competing software) and bonus legs (due to would-be owners not having the hardware yet and buying the game when they get the hardware)
- As a franchise, I think Layton is not likely to grow and franchises that don't grow decline due to stagnation. I think Layton is, in other words, a franchise in decline.

So those opposing factors will mitigate one another, but it's hard to say what the final result will be. Also, there's a third factor:

- When is Layton 6 coming out, and what kind of game will it be content-wise?

Of course if Layton 5 and Layton 6 end up selling 1.5 million and 2.0 million respectively, I've obviously got this wrong and I'll readily admit it. But the above is how I see things going as of right now.

I can see Layton 5 outselling 3 and 4 possibly. I agree with what you're saying and that the franchise is on a decline. However, I think it's just due to the nature of the game. Layton's sales would be a lot better if they released one or two per generation instead of making it a yearly thing. I think the majority of consumers had their fill of Layton after two games on the DS. I could see this one selling better than the latter games due to it being on a new system and obviously it being a launch title. We'll I guess see how it goes in the coming weeks.

Nintendogs will be the title that people pick up along with a 3DS. It likely won't reach the heights of the first game (there's a general trend of sequels to casual games not selling as well as their predecessors), but it'll do fine.

I agree that Nintendogs legs will be pretty big. However, I think the majority of consumers have already spoken that Layton is the game to pick up at launch for Japan anyway. When 3DS becomes more widespread and available I do see Nintendogs benefitting from this better because it appeals more to the casual crowd and not to the crowd that waits in line at launch.

 

[onken]

I went to one of my local game shops today and they actually some in stock. Priced 2500 over RRP but was still quite surprised to see them actually available.

 

[wazoo]

pretty decent numbers for Layton, hope the English translation is fast! can't wait such quality games even my sister and mum enjoy. I think 40k would be brilliant opening for SSFIV in Japan, but either way I think this title will do well as its probably the most meaty title in the launch period in America and Europe.

Nintendogs and Layton will sell big in europe, much more probably than SSF4.

Layton is at 11M worldwide, this discussion about declining sales (even constrained to Japan) is a bit too much.

 

[Izayoi]

Is that shotgun actually included with that figure? I'd buy that.

Look at the hands.

It's just the interchangeability of the Revoltech figures in action.

 

[m3k]

fuckin layton and their reused puzzles

how lame