Support NeoGAF

[_Alkaline_]

NGP will do similar numbers.

This made me laugh. Kyoufu how is that relevant at all?

 

[szaromir]

You have to be a troll.

Yearly releases, running the original concept into the ground. How is it not like what Activision is doing with COD?

 

[markot]

Not to mention, you cant really compare the budgets for Layton and FF... I mean, Layton has some voice acting in it, FF games are essentially bad CG movies now.

The game itself was a surprise hit, even the international success was pretty unexpected for most. Also the series was really 'more of the same' each installment, even with that, each installment has only been down 100k on the previous numbers, thats pretty damn good considering the game is basically just a puzzle book.

 

[cw_sasuke]

Yearly releases, running the original concept into the ground. How is it not like what Activision is doing with COD?

DLC is free for Layton, a free puzzle for every day.

 

[duckroll]

Or maybe that the sales are limited by the size of the 3DS userbase? How can you say that the fanbase is unaffected by platform shifts when the series has never shifted platforms before?

How do you know that the shift in platform and the new features/gameplay mechanics that it brings won't spark more interest in the series?

Talk about calling doom and gloom way too early.

You don't seem to understand what I'm saying. Sales are obviously limited by the size of the userbase. This is a launch. But with strong brands, very high attach rates are expected if they can actually make it out at launch. The stronger the brand, the higher the attach rate. It also shows how many fans of that brand are willing to basically buy a new system at launch just to play it.

GC launch week - 133k, Luigi's Mansion - 116k
Xbox launch week - 123k, DoA3 - 84k
PSP launch week - 166k, Minna no Golf - 66k, Ridge Racers - 60k
Wii launch week - 371k, Wii Sports - 176k, Wii Play - 171k, Zelda TP - 145k

These are all better attach rates than Layton 5 on the 3DS.

 

[Izayoi]

Yearly releases, running the original concept into the ground. How is it not like what Activision is doing with COD?

How are they running the original concept into the ground?

Gorgeous visuals coupled with puzzle-solving and unraveling a larger mystery.

I've yet to finish the third one yet, but every game only seems to get better. From what I've seen of the fourth and fifth, that doesn't look to be changing.

What are you basing these claims on?

It is nothing like what Activision is doing with CoD. You can release a series yearly and have it be good every year. Just because Activision can't do it doesn't mean that Level 5 can't.

Yeesh.

 

[herod]

I expect that the initial unit cost is quite high for a good proportion of the typical Layton fanbase.

 

[szaromir]

DLC is free for Layton, a free puzzle for every day.

Did L5 start coming up with original puzzles or are all of them still rehashes of classic puzzles like in the first two games?

 

[Izayoi]

You don't seem to understand what I'm saying. Sales are obviously limited by the size of the userbase. This is a launch. But with strong brands, very high attach rates are expected if they can actually make it out at launch. The stronger the brand, the higher the attach rate. It also shows how many fans of that brand are willing to basically buy a new system at launch just to play it.

GC launch week - 133k, Luigi's Mansion - 116k
Xbox launch week - 123k, DoA3 - 84k
PSP launch week - 166k, Minna no Golf - 66k, Ridge Racers - 60k
Wii launch week - 371k, Wii Sports - 176k, Wii Play - 171k, Zelda TP - 145k

These are all better attach rates than Layton 5 on the 3DS.

Holy shit. Does that make the 3DS the best hardware launch ever in Japan?

More than anything previously did in a whole week, in a mere two days?

Nintendo is a monster.

 

[FINALFANTASYDOG]

Yes, every Layton game has sold less than the previous one. Layton 1 had a SHIT TON of legs, and crossed a million eventually. Layton 2 is a little bit behind on that, Layton 3 got to 800k+, and Layton 4 hasn't been able to get to 700k.

If need be I'll go into calculations later, but looking at lifetime totals vs first week totals of games at launch from DS onwards in Japan, It's almost impossible to parse out totals that would give Layton5 less then 500k lifetime total(Include gba and GC figures and you could start to make an argument of a limit of 400k),

 

[MrCookiepants]

NGP will do similar numbers.

Perhaps with a new Monster Hunter at launch.

Otherwise...

 

[cw_sasuke]

You don't seem to understand what I'm saying. Sales are obviously limited by the size of the userbase. This is a launch. But with strong brands, very high attach rates are expected if they can actually make it out at launch. The stronger the brand, the higher the attach rate. It also shows how many fans of that brand are willing to basically buy a new system at launch just to play it.

GC launch week - 133k, Luigi's Mansion - 116k
Xbox launch week - 123k, DoA3 - 84k
PSP launch week - 166k, Minna no Golf - 66k, Ridge Racers - 60k
Wii launch week - 371k, Wii Sports - 176k, Wii Play - 171k, Zelda TP - 145k

These are all better attach rates than Layton 5 on the 3DS.

Layton is a big brand, but at the end its still a casual oriented game which profits more from a higher userbase. This isnt Zelda or your new Mario game at launch. Its not a game i expect gamers to shell out 350 USD just to play it. There arent many strong core 3rd Party IPs which would have sold better at launch in 2 days, and those games which would be able to sell as much like MH,DQ,FF,MG etc. are pretty much always held back till the userbase has grown more.

Super Mario 64 DS 120,062

Mario didnt sold much more on DS even with more days and being a much bigger IP.

I see where you`re comin from - and the series is in decline for sure. But takin those 3DS 2 day sales as evidence is little bit unfair.

 

[Ratrat]

Perhaps with a new Monster Hunter at launch.

Otherwise...

Monster Hunter Portable 3rd G...where will it go? If that launched with the NGP it certainly would outsell the 3DS. I think it'll be the psps swan song though.

 

[Graphics Horse]

There are approximately PI systems sold for every copy of Layton. Is this a puzzle?

 

[Sloane]

Layton 1 had a SHIT TON of legs, and crossed a million eventually. Layton 2 is a little bit behind on that, Layton 3 got to 800k+, and Layton 4 hasn't been able to get to 700k.

Well, DS piracy was a lot less common when Layton 1 was released, I would think.

 

[szaromir]

How are they running the original concept into the ground?

Gorgeous visuals coupled with puzzle-solving and unraveling a larger mystery.

I've yet to finish the third one yet, but every game only seems to get better. From what I've seen of the fourth and fifth, that doesn't look to be changing.

What are you basing these claims on?

It is nothing like what Activision is doing with CoD. You can release a series yearly and have it be good every year. Just because Activision can't do it doesn't mean that Level 5 can't.

Yeesh.

The first game had no original puzzles, the gameplay was primitive for adventure game standards (tapping everything on screen), the second one was the same from what I played, but I gave it back to myfriend after the first 10-15 puzzles as I saw the game wasn't going anywhere.

Using your argument, how is Activision running COD into the ground? Spectacular scripts coupled with amazing multiplayer gameplay and Hans Zimmer soundtrack.

 

[Gahiggidy]

professorlaytonflippingyouoff.gif

 

[Truth101]

You don't seem to understand what I'm saying. Sales are obviously limited by the size of the userbase. This is a launch. But with strong brands, very high attach rates are expected if they can actually make it out at launch. The stronger the brand, the higher the attach rate. It also shows how many fans of that brand are willing to basically buy a new system at launch just to play it.

GC launch week - 133k, Luigi's Mansion - 116k
Xbox launch week - 123k, DoA3 - 84k
PSP launch week - 166k, Minna no Golf - 66k, Ridge Racers - 60k
Wii launch week - 371k, Wii Sports - 176k, Wii Play - 171k, Zelda TP - 145k

These are all better attach rates than Layton 5 on the 3DS.

I think you also have to take into consideration how long each of those consoles were on sale before the tracking period for that week ended.

 

[Graphics Horse]

The first game had no original puzzles, the gameplay was primitive for adventure game standards (tapping everything on screen), the second one was the same from what I played, but I gave it back to myfriend after the first 10-15 puzzles as I saw the game wasn't going anywhere.

I agree, and a lot of the puzzles seem to rely on a deceptive question where the answer is almost always '1'. But the Japanese one has a lot of different puzzles, so I'm not sure how much this is down to translation.

They do seem to be changing things around for this game from what I've seen.

 

[Izayoi]

The first game had no original puzzles, the gameplay was primitive for adventure game standards (tapping everything on screen), the second one was the same from what I played, but I gave it back to myfriend after the first 10-15 puzzles as I saw the game wasn't going anywhere.

You're judging the game based off of the first fifteen puzzles? I'm going to bed.

Spectacular scripts...

I'm definitely going to bed.

 

[stupid_dad]

I hope the rest of the world see's Layton 3DS sometime this year

 

[Momo]

Uhm wait .. if more "arb" titles starts doing well on the 3DS off the bat, won't the big name popular franchise makers just take their ball elsewhere like they did with the Wii?

Don't get me wrong I love L5 and Layton, it just sets an odd tone.

 

[Mockingbird]

Is it possible that Nintendogs + Cats was counted as three separate games and when added together might be higher than Layton?

 

[Oxx]

Layton isnt just about Japan anymore, im sure they are makin more than enough money or they wouldnt even put that much effort in it.

Yeah, I was surprised how well the sales of the third Layton game held-up in the UK considering the overall decline of the DS software market over here.

But I think the series would have to break-out in the US market to really arrest the overall decline in profitability.

 

[szaromir]

You're judging the game based off of the first fifteen puzzles? I'm going to bed.

Why should I keep playing that game? To continue solving the same puzzles I did when I was a kid?

I'm definitely going to bed.

I only mirrored your argument. Gorgeous visuals is hardly an argument against milking the series.

 

[StuBurns]

I would have assumed it would be top, it seems like the one that I'd get if I were Japanese and wanted a launch unit.

 

[markot]

Why should I keep playing that game? To continue solving the same puzzles I did when I was a kid?

I only mirrored your argument. Gorgeous visuals is hardly an argument against milking the series.

.... But its a puzzle book game, what more do you want?

 

[szaromir]

.... But its a puzzle book game, what more do you want?

Original puzzles?

Maybe the localization team drops the ball if it removes original puzzles because they are language or culture base and replaces them with rehashes (or nothing), but the content of European releases is depressing.

 

[Mockingbird]

Why should I keep playing that game? To continue solving the same puzzles I did when I was a kid?

I agree the series is being milked, but you did this puzzle when you were a kid?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56XEEMZ6Bhw&t=2m35s

the game does have some original puzzles, but they suck. I'd rather they give us good puzzles that make sense to be on the DS. Like the Disappearing act puzzles, the Knight's Tour puzzles, or the too many queens ones work very well on the DS because you don't need to set up a Chess board or have pieces.

 

[markot]

Well ive never done most of them... and I mean, its pretty damn hard to come up with 'new' kinds of puzzles.

I played the Aussie version so I guess its the same as all non Japanese ones.

 

[duckroll]

Layton is a big brand, but at the end its still a casual oriented game which profits more from a higher userbase. This isnt Zelda or your new Mario game at launch. Its not a game i expect gamers to shell out 350 USD just to play it. There arent many strong core 3rd Party IPs which would have sold better at launch in 2 days, and those games which would be able to sell as much like MH,DQ,FF,MG etc. are pretty much always held back till the userbase has grown more.

Layton is casual in gameplay, but the design and narrative of the game is much more of a core game than Mario or Zelda. That's something you have to consider. The game has an ongoing narrative, with voiced story events, overly complex plot twists, and a bunch of animated FMV sequences. This element has certainly helped it rise above all the other Brain Training clones early in the DS lifespan, because it was different and unique. It is also a part of what makes the series more and more front loaded with each installment.

Layton 1 absolutely sold to casuals, as is evidenced by how a 120k opening week can translate into a million selling title over a period of 2 years. But when you look at Layton 4, a 300k opening week translating to a 650k LTD is a clear sign that a big chunk of the people are there on day 1 because of they want the latest story featuring those characters, as opposed to casual gamers picking it up in the store as they see it as time goes by.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Great, but little less as NDS right?

Famitsu had its first week at 441,485. Higher than 3DS, but its first week also had twice as many days. EDIT: Also worth noting that the top 2 DS performers that week did just barely better than Layton. SM64Ds at 120,062 and WarioWare at 117,677.

Is it possible that Nintendogs + Cats was counted as three separate games and when added together might be higher than Layton?

Famitsu tends to combine such things.

 

[AdventureRacing]

No surprise that the 3DS is selling a ton of HW. Its going to be very intersting to see how software sales go.

There really isn't much software that stands out as a potential big seller.

 

[farnham]

Monster Hunter Portable 3rd G...where will it go? If that launched with the NGP it certainly would outsell the 3DS. I think it'll be the psps swan song though.

isnt NGP launching at the end of this year ?

by that time mario kart 3ds, animal crossing 3ds or even pokemon 3ds might be out

all games that are equals or even greater in sales power compared to monster hunter portable

also 3ds has a 6 month head start. i think its doubtful that mhp alone will make ngp outsell 3ds immediately

 

[szaromir]

I agree the series is being milked, but you did this puzzle when you were a kid?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56XEEMZ6Bhw&t=2m35s

Variation of block sliding puzzle, how original.

 

[farnham]

No surprise that the 3DS is selling a ton of HW. Its going to be very intersting to see how software sales go.

There really isn't much software that stands out as a potential big seller.

nintendogs and layton are both millionsellers on ds.

 

[Xater]

If I had to pick a launch title it would be Layton as well. Sucks that the game will take a while to hit the west.

 

[markot]

Variation of block sliding puzzle, how original.

But again, its not easy to come up with 'original' puzzle types.... In fact its pretty damn hard to come up with a puzzle or puzzle type that hasnt been done, or works.

 

[king zell]

isnt NGP launching at the end of this year ?

by that time mario kart 3ds, animal crossing 3ds or even pokemon 3ds might be out

all games that are equals or even greater in sales power compared to monster hunter portable

also 3ds has a 6 month head start. i think its doubtful that mhp alone will make ngp outsell 3ds immediately

+ capcom is showing alot love for the 3DS and monster Hunter 3D wont be a surprise to anyone

 

[squall23]

Stay classy Level 5.

Now hurry up with those Inazuma Eleven translations! The anime can't satisfy me all the time.

 

[Ratrat]

isnt NGP launching at the end of this year ?

by that time mario kart 3ds, animal crossing 3ds or even pokemon 3ds might be out

all games that are equals or even greater in sales power compared to monster hunter portable

also 3ds has a 6 month head start. i think its doubtful that mhp alone will make ngp outsell 3ds immediately

I was obviously talking about the launch week. I also don't think there will be a MH at launch so don't worry.

 

[Ratrat]

If I had to pick a launch title it would be Layton as well. Sucks that the game will take a while to hit the west.

Where is Layton 4?

 

[Stumpokapow]

Variation of block sliding puzzle, how original.

Is this some sort of "all puzzles are the same puzzle" argument?

Those two puzzles have virtually nothing in common except insofar as they both involve lateral translation of space-constrained objects.

The type and shape of the objects, the shape of the board, the degree of space constraint, the final objective, the scope of the objective--in the sliding tile puzzle to achieve a full board configuration in the Layton puzzle to move one tile to an end tile location, the techniques used to address the board, the impact of local minima/maxima... all of these characteristics are different.

Unless you're trying to make some abstract point about computational complexity, you're not right about this.

 

[Jikagi]

Thoese are pretty good sales. Too bad Layton won't come out at launch in the West since that's what I was going to get.

 

[-WindYoshi-]

Level 5 is spending more and more money on Layton games, and making less and less with each one.

How can you be so certain that this Layton will sell less? Your comment seems a bit premature given the fact that launch games tend to have good legs.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Would we argue that these are the same puzzles?

Both involve horizontal translations of (subsets of) LIFO stacks with constraint on stack pushing rules. Same puzzle confirmed.

 

[From The Dust]

Not bad. I expected Layton third actually; behind Nintendogs and Street Fighter

 

[Graphics Horse]

The sliding puzzle involving moving a specific piece past differently shaped pieces dates back to the early 1900s

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klotski

 

[LM4sure]

Layton is a great series. I've played two of the games, and I'm not really burned out at this point. It's good casual fun

 

[farnham]

I was obviously talking about the launch week. I also don't think there will be a MH at launch so don't worry.

well if ngp doesnt outsell 3ds at launch thats probably because of shortages

in other words if sony ships enough it will outsell 3ds that week easily

Not bad. I expected Layton third actually; behind Nintendogs and Street Fighter

that game didnt even break 500k on much more popular platforms

Thoese are pretty good sales. Too bad Layton won't come out at launch in the West since that's what I was going to get.

well at least layton 4 will comeout on the regular ds then